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[Turdburger]

Again lol, i dont discount the stat, i just think that it is a poor indicator of the common range of conclusions ppl draw from the stat. If i discuss talent strategy, for example, winrate wont figure in to it. If i discuss general talent strength, even that is contextual, but it is something talent winrate gets closer to (and again has very little to do with sussing out talents on your own). Like put simply, the jump a lot of ppl make from stat -> conclusion doesnt hold for me, 4/5 doctors recommending this toothpaste doesnt make me think this toothpaste is better for me. Agaaain, i dont discount the stat but for the purposes of a lot of things i think about it's not relevant. Ill never say something like i think x talent is good, it posts a high winrate, ill say something like imposing presence has a lot of value against all these auto-attackers, etc. and it's those types of considerations ppl should think about when choosing a talent. Again the caff example i gave, he doesnt consider the winrate when he thinks out those leoric builds because it isnt relevant.

At the pro level, winrate isn't relevant because of sample size and team skill differential, unless you get some really ridiculous statistics over a decent period of time.

Also how many ppl use his passive the way he describes? If that is good advice, how does it figure into winrate? Is leoric a bad champion if he has a low winrate but ppl dont use his passive properly? Etc. Like those are questions that winrate isnt involved in. The only real question i can answer with winrate is what is the winrate of leoric in this sample? While it can tell me certain things about the hero to a certain extent (things like ease of play, general strength, etc.) it again tells me very little about why the stat is the way it is, how this winrate stat is created essentially.

The goal of the game is to win. If a hero wins an abnormal amount of games in a sufficient statistical sample, then the conclusion is the same no matter how you get there: there's a balance problem. It's pretty simple.

The balancing to me is basically like, oh nazeebo posts high numbers lets put him more in line despite him having a range of counter play vs. oh cast aside seems kind of ridiculous even though ppl dont win with it a lot or play tyrael much in general lets get rid of it, vs. nova makes the game unfun for a lot of ppl lets deal with that, and i only really like the last two types of balancing in this example because there is a grabbable idea behind it. I dont think anyone was complaining about nazeebo or thought he was overpowered, he was literally just winning a lot.

Yes, Nazeebo was winning a lot. Thus the slight balance change. The amount of complaining or general perception is not relevant to whether a hero is balanced or not. Lol

Blizzard has made it very clear they approach balance differently for competitive play and the general population.

Nazeebo doesn't see play in competitive because of counterplay that isn't relevant at lower levels of play. His early game laning is bad and exploitable, his mobility is weak, and in a meta full of CC, control and burst damage, his kit doesn't do much in a team fight. At lower levels of play, though, he still just does a shitload of damage over time.

If you compare Nazeebo to Lunara, they do damage in similar ways. But Lunara has more utility (wisp), better CC (slow with her W vs. unreliable Zombie Wall) and far better mobility.

 

[Auteezy]

Coordinate with other players and ambush their fight. Flank and pick off squishies during teamfights.
Zeratul isn't the best 1v1 duelist.

Oh and use VP to isolate a high priority target.

Most people seem to be smart enough to run into the vp if they are left out of it. I thought I'm supposed to use it to combo with my teammates mostly. Or use it on my teammates so I can have 5 seconds where they can't do anything stupid.

 

[brian!]

Right i have no problem w/ using stats to detect outliers, and like i said blizzard has other things to consider besides game balance. I dunno if problem is even the right word, bliz can do whatever they want balancewise and the game will probably be interesting. But like i said i dislike the idea that winrates are seen as this static thing that is caused by hero design, nerfing nazeebo because of his winrate is absolutely a short-term fix to get his numbers in line, which is fine, but has nothing to do with him as a hero and doesnt give space to the population to adapt their play to him, like that's what id enjoy and something i think would raise skill in general for this game. Basically compared to getting rid of cast aside or nerfing nova, i prefer those types of changes to checking a stat and doing damage control.

Complaining or general perception is somethig blizz reacts to more than any moba ive played, like in dota if you complain about riki youd get hazed probably. I feel you on the nazeebo at low levels thing, a better example for what i mean would probably be something like murky existing at a high winrate for months and months but not seeing a huge nerf or anything, which i think is good

I dunno here's another example for what i mean: illidan has a low winrate does he need a buff? vs. taking unstoppable off of q even though it doesnt affect lower levels as much. The latter has an idea behind it w/ longevity in mind, the former is just hands in the pot again.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Most people seem to be smart enough to run into the vp if they are left out of it. I thought I'm supposed to use it to combo with my teammates mostly. Or use it on my teammates so I can have 5 seconds where they can't do anything stupid.

VP is much less effective if your teammates don't capitalize on it. If you can wombo of it that's fine but you really just want to either VP the healer and burst someone or VP the team and burst the healer.

You can for instance use leoric's entomb in conjunction with VP so that the isolated member can't run into the VP.

 

[Ketch]

Yo. Me & kirblar tied. When's ur birthday?

Spoiler

grats on being right about archon mode

I also just want to say: look at what maleduct posted for his falstad build and how shitty it would have been if he just said: "I pick x talent because it had high numbers on hotslogs".

 

[Celegus]

27.

Looks like we got a squad of late-20 folk in here.

Is it bad that I had to math out my age because I haven't thought about it in so long? Pretty sure it came out to me being 27 as well!

 

[brian!]

just as an aside ive noted that stats are useful in every post ive made about the subject i think, pls dont hurt me

 

[RumblingRosco]

just as an aside ive noted that stats are useful in every post ive made about the subject i think, pls dont hurt me

Burn the witch.

 

[Alur]

Oh please. I'm 36 *and* gay, which makes me... 252 I think! ;-)

I'll be 39 in two weeks.

Gonna have to get the wheelchairs out boys. You guys use reading glasses to see the monitor or...?

huehue

 

[jaundicejuice]

Hams got me beat.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You guys have to watch this game of Team Liquid vs Fnatic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpIFvlHgkew (It's game

Spoiler

5

that channel has all the final games)

Damage Monk is a thing now, and not just a 1 time cheese comp

And how come no one cares that C9

Spoiler

lost against Braveheart in Gold Series

?

 

[brian!]

c9 bheart set w/ ur boy kenma
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEZWxzOkEik&feature=youtu.be

i played 1 game w/ damage monk in ptr, i dissaprove but he posted most damage in the game

 

[Turdburger]

Right i have no problem w/ using stats to detect outliers, and like i said blizzard has other things to consider besides game balance. I dunno if problem is even the right word, bliz can do whatever they want balancewise and the game will probably be interesting. But like i said i dislike the idea that winrates are seen as this static thing that is caused by hero design, nerfing nazeebo because of his winrate is absolutely a short-term fix to get his numbers in line, which is fine, but has nothing to do with him as a hero and doesnt give space to the population to adapt their play to him, like that's what id enjoy and something i think would raise skill in general for this game. Basically compared to getting rid of cast aside or nerfing nova, i prefer those types of changes to checking a stat and doing damage control.

Complaining or general perception is somethig blizz reacts to more than any moba ive played, like in dota if you complain about riki youd get hazed probably. I feel you on the nazeebo at low levels thing, a better example for what i mean would probably be something like murky existing at a high winrate for months and months but not seeing a huge nerf or anything, which i think is good

I dunno here's another example for what i mean: illidan has a low winrate does he need a buff? vs. taking unstoppable off of q even though it doesnt affect lower levels as much. The latter has an idea behind it w/ longevity in mind, the former is just hands in the pot again.

Yeah I agree winrate and good game design aren't related metrics. A hero could have a 50% winrate and still be a total design disaster.

But if a hero's most popular build has a 50% winrate then they're balanced at least. Lol

 

[Alur]

And how come no one cares that C9

Spoiler

lost against Braveheart in Gold Series

?

NA bias. We don't recognize when our teams fail.

But really I just haven't gotten to see it. Was it the same Braveheart, or was Braveheart the mish-mash team?

 

[brian!]

then you get ppl being like
but blizz why isnt every talent 50% pickrate/winrate
and blizz is like mm wut u say

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

c9 bheart set w/ ur boy kenma
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEZWxzOkEik&feature=youtu.be

i played 1 game w/ damage monk in ptr, i dissaprove but he posted most damage in the game

Did you have a 2nd support? If you go double support you get a nice mix of burst, off support and deny your opponent the 2 best supports in the current meta. Liquid has been employing the strat the last couple days and it looked very convincing. Though with the way EU teams are messy right now I can't say how viable it is in other metas.

NA bias. We don't recognize when our teams fail.

But really I just haven't gotten to see it. Was it the same Braveheart, or was Braveheart the mish-mash team?

I don't know the team, and the quality of the stream was so crummy I couldn't check not to mention that I have no idea where to find the bracket and why do I even bother spoiler tagging.

 

[brian!]

it was just him which is why i dissaproved

sanc/dpsmonk did a lot of work that game but in general i think ppl treat ptr as a playground, i was pretty astounded by how much dmg he did tbh

 

[Turdburger]

And how come no one cares that C9

Spoiler

lost against Braveheart in Gold Series

?

I'm sure the new patch had a bit to do with it but they threw game 1 and played extra shit in game 3 so it's a bit concerning considering that the play was downright bad at times

 

[Atraveller]

Arantis is fun

Indeed, pretty decent as well, only weakness is getting blinded and lack of escape methods.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'm sure the new patch had a bit to do with it but they threw game 1 and played extra shit in game 3 so it's a bit concerning considering that the play was downright bad at times

Possibly but the match vs SPT was prior to the patch and in that series SPT threw hard.

C9 aren't playing to the best of their abilities in China so far.

 

[bakerbakes]

This thread just made me ask the lady friend how old I was. She told me I am 28. It made me sad.

 

[Milly79]

They just won Blizzcon. Am I not seeing something or should I really care if they do poorly in China?

 

[Alur]

Well, TS had just won 3 Blizzcon qualifiers and you and I and others really cared when they lost to C9 at the THH Invitational so probably so. We also did the same thing when they lost ESL Major League. This is a pretty big deal, right up with the OGN Korea league as the two biggest non Blizzcon related HOTS events. THH Invitational and ESL Major League wasn't even completely taken seriously by all the teams is what I'm saying I guess.

Just cause they won Blizzcon doesn't mean they can start losing or playing bad and not have it noticed. It means now that they are unquestioned top dogs they'll get the scrutiny TL and TS used to get for better or worse.

So far no team has remained on top for more than 4-6 months tops. TL had it the longest probably, while TS and C9 traded off like 3 month stretches. Wouldn't be a huge surprise if due to Blizzcon high + being fish out of water living together for the first time in a foreign country that they backslid a bit. One series loss doesn't mean that, but of course people will talk about it.

 

[Alur]

I gotta say drunk Jake streaming is hilarious and would be amazing if it was drunk Jake casting. The everyman facade goes away and the personality returns. I'm gonna have the most amazing GIF out of this stream tomorrow. Just wait for it.

 

[Auteezy]

What are the best heroes to grind rating on? I wanna be rank 1 with the minimal amount of effort.

 

[kirblar]

Zagara's super good for that, Nazeebo probably still is. Lots of self sustain and damage output is what you want.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They just won Blizzcon. Am I not seeing something or should I really care if they do poorly in China?

Winning Blizzcon makes it all the more interesting how they perform outside their home turf.

Just checked and just 2 members are the same they were @Bcon

 

[Indignate]

So the success to Cho'Gall is the same as any relationship; having a top and a bottom.

 

[Auteezy]

raynor feels like he is doing way too much damage right now, or is it just me?

 

[kirblar]

They put the PC I wanted up early and I missed the email.

 

[AntiFacebook]

Anyone knows of a good place to find people who need Cho'gall?

 

[AbundantChoice]

Hams got me beat.

Feh, i'm turning 40 in 3 months, I got all 'ya beat.

So I was farting around in VsAI to finish a quest I wasn't in the mood to do against people as Tyrande and I cracked 200,000 Siege XP for the first time. Ended up taking 3 garden terrors because nobody else seemed to want them and essentially took down everything on the way to the core.

Does anyone know what the theoretical "maximuim" siege damage is? I know it varies with game length due to creeps, but I wonder how much XP all of the structures on the various maps add up to.

(also, I unlocked Cho'Gall last night, so if you need him, my Bnet ID is in my profile. I'll be on and off today and tomorrow)

 

[patchday]

Anyone knows of a good place to find people who need Cho'gall?

I just joined General Chat and spammed for people that needed him. Got the quest done pretty quick last night

Command:
/join General

There is also a Cho'Gal chat room

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Gonna have to get the wheelchairs out boys. You guys use reading glasses to see the monitor or...?

huehue

Here's a shot of me and my setup at home

 

[Raxus]

Anyone knows of a good place to find people who need Cho'gall?

I have given up on that gold long ago

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Indeed, pretty decent as well, only weakness is getting blinded and lack of escape methods.

Ah, your avatar makes me miss GoT so much. ... OnTopic: i love how he just dashes in to swipe then comes back like a boomarang. i find it hilarious to watch sometimes. hehe

Random compositions (well you get 3 to pick from), sometimes even everyone gets the same hero, very small maps with central objectives to fight over. Short matches. I played it at the convention and it was an absolute blast.

I mean I was also drunk at the time but

That sounds pretty fun and like the matches wouldn't last that long. Im game! When is it coming?

 

[Hydrophobic]

raynor feels like he is doing way too much damage right now, or is it just me?

You aren't wrong. The most popular raynor build right now has pretty good damage in the hands of a decent player. I don't know if it's too much necessarily, but he's definitely on the higher end of the spectrum as far as I can see. I could do with seeing less Raynors in my hero league games...

 

[brian!]

His early damage went up a lot, but hes relatively squishier at those levels too

 

[Alur]

raynor feels like he is doing way too much damage right now, or is it just me?

He's strong right now. Made stronger by the abundance of high health targets and tanks in the queue/meta. I wouldn't say he's doing too much damage, though. You still have to stutter step to maximize that damage and the vast majority of players aren't going to be doing that. Even then I don't feel like it's on the level of what we saw in the past with KT or Jaina or a few other heroes before nerfs came in.

He also spent 8 months plus at the bottom of the barrel so it's good to see him relevant.

Here's a shot of me and my setup at home

Lookin' good.

When is it coming?

Next year sometime. It's a ways off.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

In competitive Falstad just seems to fill Raynor's role with better utility.

Speaking of Falstad, mighty gust didn't change at all did it? Yet it went from being a combo piece developed by NaVi to looking outright broken since then.

 

[Maledict]

Raynors much easier to play than Falstad, but completely lacks Falstads playmaker abilities. I think at the pro-level Falstad will be played more, but in general games Raynor will have the higher win rate because he requires a lot less from a player.

In terms of Mighty Gust, it feels like a combo of people getting used to it and how to use it, and the fact Hinterland Blast isn't the powerhouse it used to be which opens up other options. Also people aren't picking Falstad for the same reason they used to - he's no longer a burst pick option, so there's less reason to take his burst ultimate.

With Thrall coming back I'm interested in seeing how he and Falstad can combine heroics together. Thrall splitting a team and then Falstad blowing half of them away should be an autowin in any team fight really.

 

[protonium]

Weekly Sales for November 24 – December 1, 2015
There will be no weekly sales from November 24 to December 1. Instead, we have a small surprise planned for you all. Please stay tuned to our blogs, Facebook and Twitter channels to learn more.

Brace yourselves...

 

[protonium]

In competitive Falstad just seems to fill Raynor's role with better utility.

Speaking of Falstad, mighty gust didn't change at all did it? Yet it went from being a combo piece developed by NaVi to looking outright broken since then.

They reduced the cooldown to 50s (?) a couple of patches ago.

 

[brian!]

Finally they are refunding my monk gold, thx bliz

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Maybe they're just releasing the winter skins this week

 

[Alur]

Gimme dem winter skins Blizz. If any of them are as good as Winter Veil Jaina it's gonna be nice. We haven't seen em yet or know who is getting one though, right?

 

[Alavard]

Gimme dem winter skins Blizz. If any of them are as good as Winter Veil Jaina it's gonna be nice. We haven't seen em yet or know who is getting one though, right?

Didn't we see a few in the background of a Blizzcon trailer about upcoming stuff? A Christmas Stiches (Greatfather I think, if I'm remembering the name of the wow version of Santa correctly), and some sort of winter-themed Sylvanas (I recall something like Winter Plum Sylvanas as the name).

The Stitches is shown briefly here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DjkOAmTrvo&feature=youtu.be&t=1m23s
1 min and 23 seconds in.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They reduced the cooldown to 50s (?) a couple of patches ago.

40s can't find when they buffed that.


Anyway imgur vidgif doesn't work for me so gfycats have to suffice.

Amazing escape of Cris on Falstad and the end of finals of TL vs Fnatic (which was ludicrous)

http://gfycat.com/UntidyDelightfulIsabellineshrike sadly the video froze at that spot

http://gfycat.com/ThoughtfulMatureGar

 

[Alur]

The Stitches is shown briefly here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DjkOAmTrvo&feature=youtu.be&t=1m23s
1 min and 23 seconds in.

Man why does Stitches get so many skins + so many good ones and he's still so subpar? FeelsBadMan

Counting bikini Stitches and then this one he'll have 6 skins. Heroes released earlier this year such as the aforementioned Sylvanas, KT, Johanna, etc only have 3 skins. Thrall and Hammer finally got their fourth skin.

Feels to me like it's time for some of the newer heroes (now half a year old) to get something new.

 

[Turdburger]

Heroes Battle Arena EU in 15 minutes

edit: maybe not