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Heroes of the Storm |OT| Pretty sure that Abathur is AFK
- Thread starter Nirolak
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Having the pick percentage for heroics come together is pretty difficult, i agree w/ the major points re spectatorship and hots identity. I think a lot of the difficulty comes from strategy being more determined by map/in-game mechanics/how the game is built vs. being determined by heroic choice; like maw/nydus and arrow/possession are clearly separated by wants (fight vs. split pressure) and the argument can be made that the lesser picked ones are undertuned, but there are a range of difficulties in these instances that probably ensure that one will always be picked over the other.
Splits like artanis's ults are more likely to have that strategic 10 choice (but even then they are pretty foreshadowed by comps) because they both pretty much do the same thing, swing fights. Like right now it only seems that we'll see parity in ults that serve a similar purpose in different ways, which can still make for interesting casting discussion.
I think there are a bunch of too big to fail ults that can be looked at for sure, esp. in the extreme cases you brought up, but itll probably be rare that ults that arent quick large usuable fight value style ults will see the light of day pickwise
Oh also an interesting thing to think about could be comparing pickrates of reg talents (which to me have more parity potential via things like complete/synergistic building or more situational talents like q extension on anub being a more surething cc followup) vs. pickrates of heroics. Id love more normal talent discussion from casters, for example johanna w build vs. bulkier/cd build is something that gets touched on sometimes but rarely gets expanded on deeply (tho i dunno how many things casters can stuff into such a fast game and heroic discussion/anticipation is def more accessible).
Splits like artanis's ults are more likely to have that strategic 10 choice (but even then they are pretty foreshadowed by comps) because they both pretty much do the same thing, swing fights. Like right now it only seems that we'll see parity in ults that serve a similar purpose in different ways, which can still make for interesting casting discussion.
I think there are a bunch of too big to fail ults that can be looked at for sure, esp. in the extreme cases you brought up, but itll probably be rare that ults that arent quick large usuable fight value style ults will see the light of day pickwise
Oh also an interesting thing to think about could be comparing pickrates of reg talents (which to me have more parity potential via things like complete/synergistic building or more situational talents like q extension on anub being a more surething cc followup) vs. pickrates of heroics. Id love more normal talent discussion from casters, for example johanna w build vs. bulkier/cd build is something that gets touched on sometimes but rarely gets expanded on deeply (tho i dunno how many things casters can stuff into such a fast game and heroic discussion/anticipation is def more accessible).
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
How much does possession actually get picked anyway
I won't hazard to guess anything about Sylvanas with my amazing 7% winrate
I won't hazard to guess anything about Sylvanas with my amazing 7% winrate
Near-0. It just sucks in a game where you can get one-shot waveclear.
3.6%, 1579 times across all leagues on Hotslogs.
I think the issue with any talent that goes with split pushing is it's not viable. I have zero idea why there are split push talents in the game, when they TYPICALLY only work at very high end game play. How many times have you seen that split pusher get bodied because they didn't pay attention to rotations? It happens all too often at our level of play (casual, not competitive). Does possession make sense for Syl? Yeah. Does Demonic Invasion make sense for Azmo? Yeah. They mostly all do, but it just doesn't work.
To me if anything single split style things like nydus works better at lower levels, the game favors grouping and power plays to a crazy extent and i feel like this will get taken advantage of more easily w/ ppl who have more of an idea of what their limits are. Like i feel like it is more likely to have someone feel like they are forced to rotate and deal w/ nydus zag at lower levels, or to win a 4v5 just by outplaying. Another contributing factor is the type of movement; league and dota both have teleport mechanics and slower lane movement
Split pushing is a great moba thing, but it's hard to see it having a place when buildings are so weak and a 5v4 siege is so winnable by the 5 (and also to have it feel like a consistently viable and strong thing w/ the types of maps available, which contributes to pickrates a good amount). Things that revolve around getting back and having instant team fight effect like bw/etc excluded ofc.
Oh another thing to add is that split push is really hard to balance in this game as seen w/ issues with abathur, promote, and etc who used to have a perfect talent tree for it. I dont think it needs to be a thing in this game really or exist as a heroic option for specialists.
Split pushing is a great moba thing, but it's hard to see it having a place when buildings are so weak and a 5v4 siege is so winnable by the 5 (and also to have it feel like a consistently viable and strong thing w/ the types of maps available, which contributes to pickrates a good amount). Things that revolve around getting back and having instant team fight effect like bw/etc excluded ofc.
Oh another thing to add is that split push is really hard to balance in this game as seen w/ issues with abathur, promote, and etc who used to have a perfect talent tree for it. I dont think it needs to be a thing in this game really or exist as a heroic option for specialists.
RumblingRosco
Member
Best class gets shafted again!
It's not a surprise - they don't really have a unified theme anymore, and split pushing as a concept isn't hugely viable nor does it work enough to justify a whole class out of it.
jaundicejuice
Member
Split-pushing isn't a thing nor is jungling. There isn't the same advantage in HotS as Dota giving someone solo lane exp and having someone farm your jungle. And half of Gazlowe is basically jungling.
Haunted Mines should turn into a jungling map with an open-air midsection (think BoE)
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
I literally spent 2 minutes laughing after reading this post
Top tier, no, straight up god tier. Thank you
jaundicejuice
Member
Gazlowe getting buffed is exciting though. I really like the hero but he's so situationally useful right now and there are so many heroes that counter him. I almost always go for the CC/turret/Grav-o-Bomb build when I do play him, unless your team has total map control early or no tank to take objectives and merc. With total map control, you can Merc for free and help your team, Robo-Goblin. Without that map control, the other team basically knows where you are and can farm you. Better off being a teamfight asset and a pain in the ass with turret and cc spam.
Could be interesting, better than the split level concept.
Could be interesting, better than the split level concept.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
You know I'm going to disagree about split pushing just because of Abathur, so I doubt I should even post
He may be a unique case, but it really boils down to whether free soak during team fights overcomes being down 3/4 of a person
And of course at 20 it's more like 4.75 vs 5, but oh yeah, your lanes are pushed in too
Hey, alright, my MMR is over 2000 again for the first time since late July
He may be a unique case, but it really boils down to whether free soak during team fights overcomes being down 3/4 of a person
And of course at 20 it's more like 4.75 vs 5, but oh yeah, your lanes are pushed in too
Hey, alright, my MMR is over 2000 again for the first time since late July
nah bringing up abathur is great for split push discussion
to me it's a good way of indicating when splitting is most effective and what it mainly attempts to do. map objectives funnel heroes in a way that is unique to hots and that's the best time for ppl to be in lane to soak the only real resource in the game. it's like a decidedly hots style of split push, where you need to be able to get dat hot exp while being able to assist your team across the map.
actually i dunno if split push is the right term now tbh, like in league and dota it's mainly about pressure and manipulating the map but in hots it's about even more hyper-moba resource greed
to me it's a good way of indicating when splitting is most effective and what it mainly attempts to do. map objectives funnel heroes in a way that is unique to hots and that's the best time for ppl to be in lane to soak the only real resource in the game. it's like a decidedly hots style of split push, where you need to be able to get dat hot exp while being able to assist your team across the map.
actually i dunno if split push is the right term now tbh, like in league and dota it's mainly about pressure and manipulating the map but in hots it's about even more hyper-moba resource greed
jaundicejuice
Member
You said it, Abathur is unique. He can be two places at once. Absorbs exp with his body, with his locusts last hitting in one lane, be present in teamfights with his symbiote in another, and have a monstrosity pushing another lane or create a copy of a teammate to help out in teamfights. Abathur's design is pretty unique.
HotS's maps are generally smaller than Dota's one map. You can get around much quicker and have a mount for increased movement speed outside of combat. There's a real time and money cost to teleport to other lanes in Dota unless you're playing as a few specific heroes.
In Rat Dota you're caught between chasing the split pusher like Nature's Prophet or teamfighting the other 4 heroes. Go to Prophet's lane and he's already gone and in the lane you just left, while his teammates push another lane. There's constantly a carrot being dangled. Against Aba you're not really making that same decision. Early game he's behind fortifications, late game it gets harder to track him down or easier depending on how things are going for Aba's team. Depends on the map and team comp. Tomb of the Spider Queen and Nova or Zeratul is fun.
HotS's maps are generally smaller than Dota's one map. You can get around much quicker and have a mount for increased movement speed outside of combat. There's a real time and money cost to teleport to other lanes in Dota unless you're playing as a few specific heroes.
In Rat Dota you're caught between chasing the split pusher like Nature's Prophet or teamfighting the other 4 heroes. Go to Prophet's lane and he's already gone and in the lane you just left, while his teammates push another lane. There's constantly a carrot being dangled. Against Aba you're not really making that same decision. Early game he's behind fortifications, late game it gets harder to track him down or easier depending on how things are going for Aba's team. Depends on the map and team comp. Tomb of the Spider Queen and Nova or Zeratul is fun.
In my limited hots experience split pushing is like when you are down a talent level and can afford to give up an objective in order to catch up to the same talent tier for a fight because fighting, wiping, then losing the objective is worse. Like you are 9 they are 10 and are on a temple or something, split the map get exp maybe even take a fort or something and end up ahead a level when all is said and done. I've seen some streamers use murky in the kind of split push sense where they just throw fish at buildings and hope a hero or 2 hearths back to defend them. Same idea almost as storm or prophet split push in dota, force a few heroes back to weaken their push while gaining xp.
The small map and the like 30 different entrance angles to catch somebody from behind is probably the biggest deterrent to split push in hots vs dota imo. Split push is skeevy tho anyways.
<3. You still deflected the supposition, though.
ARE YOU ARTANIS? CHECK YES [ ] OR NO [ ]
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
damn sometimes I'll go 2 or 3 games between people even talking during a game otehr than GG at the end
Yea I don't play ranked in any moba now because of how toxic it can be...
unranked can be too but it's not nearly as bad
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I want to get the goodies too
jaundicejuice
Member
I wish the bolded happened more often in some of my matches.
I'm not a fan of split-push per say
I would always try to break Furion's spirit.
I guess it's good and bad that there aren't sort of fixed roles and laning assignments for heroes or that the game is so temfight-centric.I can't play Dota anymore because the matches feel like they take forever and I can't stand the dirt farming anymore.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
NaVi has been trying out with Wubby and Granpkt btw.
Granpkt was playing with Roccat just last week at Dreamhack.
Granpkt was playing with Roccat just last week at Dreamhack.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Speaking of split pushing just lost a match where no matter what we did one enemy player was always pushing in another lane.
The weird thing was that it was always a different player. Problem was that since it was 3 tanks with an overabundance of stuns we couldn't capitalize on the teamfights.
It didn't help that our raynore was pretty witless. 3 dead on the enemy team our core at 10% no keeps left, and he goes and tries to get the enemy's siege giant and fails...
Just after he tried getting the enemy siege giants getting spotted by sylvanas killing her with the help of nova only to go back to trying to get the giants and failing.
Not that I didn't make mistakes, I made plenty but those just stood out. How does Sonya stay alive so long in the thick of it? Multiple times I was certain I'd die only to spam my abilities for like 3 seconds longer than I expected and that at no tank talents except Hardened Shield (not used though).
Edit: And HoTS just crashed on me.
Edit Edit: It's almost comical how good Holy Ground is.
The weird thing was that it was always a different player. Problem was that since it was 3 tanks with an overabundance of stuns we couldn't capitalize on the teamfights.
It didn't help that our raynore was pretty witless. 3 dead on the enemy team our core at 10% no keeps left, and he goes and tries to get the enemy's siege giant and fails...
Just after he tried getting the enemy siege giants getting spotted by sylvanas killing her with the help of nova only to go back to trying to get the giants and failing.
Not that I didn't make mistakes, I made plenty but those just stood out. How does Sonya stay alive so long in the thick of it? Multiple times I was certain I'd die only to spam my abilities for like 3 seconds longer than I expected and that at no tank talents except Hardened Shield (not used though).
Edit: And HoTS just crashed on me.
Edit Edit: It's almost comical how good Holy Ground is.
So I just wanted to do a quick AI game to get one of my dailies done, start off by greeting my team and get "fuck you and shut the fuck up we ain't friends" from our Nazeebo player. He got even angrier when I responded to him in a friendly manner, it was pretty hilarious. I don't understand why these people even play games where they have to interact with other people.
Did you ever get to use him when he had Cast Aside? That ability was just ridiculous, and as much as I loved it it was clearly broken.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Nah I joined right around the time that got removed IIRC and didn't play Tyrael at the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdrrA0QHuMk
Skip to 8:30, and watch how Zuna abuses the poor nazeepo with it. It was ridiculously strong, and in the hands of a skilled player was like having a constant ETC face melt / powerslide going off in team fights (as you took both talents that reduce its cooldown).
It was truly glorious! ;-)
Skip to 8:30, and watch how Zuna abuses the poor nazeepo with it. It was ridiculously strong, and in the hands of a skilled player was like having a constant ETC face melt / powerslide going off in team fights (as you took both talents that reduce its cooldown).
It was truly glorious! ;-)
Turdburger
Member
What's hilarious is when he had Cast Aside everyone picked the 15% Blood For Blood instead of Holy Ground because Cast Aside and Holy Ground had such terrible synergy with each other. And now these days Holy Ground feels arguably just as broken as Cast Aside. Haha
Turdburger
Member
Wtf lol Wubby was playing Support for Myinsanity just yesterday
this is madness
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
My mistake it was Crozzby not Wubby from mYi and he was subbing for Splendour
That looks fun and wow the interface improved a lot.
It does feel broken, but it's on a longer cooldown, at a higher level, and can put Tyrael more at risk than cast aside so for now doesn't seem tooooo bad.
However, the fact Tyrael has two of these abilities does highlight the fact that his are talents unbelievably bad. He was a very early design character and it shows throughout his entire talent tree. It's one of the most dull, boring set of options in the game. The fact that he had two of these game changing talents (that they don't tend to make anymore) really stands out in the sea of grey that is his talent tree currently.
(Like, why the hell does he had any talents at all for that awful trait? Especially the 'use your abilities but no damage caused talent!)
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
His W is pretty great, I wish we had the old columns back and we could see his healing.
I actually don't think they should bring overwatch heroes into HotS so soon. It kind of ruins the hipster cool of the nostalgia of old diablo, warcraft, and starcraft characters. I already dislike that they use diablo3 stuff over diablo 2 anyways and overwatch just feeds into that for me.
I personally want all the Overwatch characters. Never saw it as a game meant to evoke nostalgia as its main purpose. It's more of a celebration of Blizzards past, present and future to me.
Though, I'd probably be against having original HotS characters as playable though (Blackheart the ghost pirate, the spider queen, etc). Now that would be lame. Overwatch on the other hand opens up the possibility of having a playable gorilla or cowboy!
I'm not saying not to add them, I just think they shouldn't rush to add them so soon before we get to know the character. I mostly only cared about hots because of the nostalgia. I'd rather play a game with heroes and characters I know because that's what draws me to the game at first. Like I have no connection with Tracer so I couldn't give a fuck about buying it, but something like mephisto, andariel, any of the wc3 dreadlords, grom, fenix, broodwar duran/narud. That shit is just so much cooler to me. And I can't say it enough but FUCK DIABLO 3 heroes I WANT Diablo 2 SHIT! Bad guys, good guys WTF.
Somebody needs to make a Deckard Cain concept where he's a specialist that chain cc's heroes by putting them to sleep telling them stories and his ultimate throws wirts leg across the map.
jaundicejuice
Member
Dustin Browder has gone on record saying that they will continue to add characters to Heroes of the Storm indefinitely. They're not going to cut themselves off at the Dota 100 or whatever.
http://www.polygon.com/2015/1/30/7954413/heroes-storm-new-characters-maps-blizzard-browder
Point is they'll mine everything eventually. I actually hope we eventually get corrupted Leah Diablo that's more of a caster (bone prison) that can transform into Femablo for one ult or create Shadow dimension clones of the enemy team in an AoE with her other. Or Reaper of Souls Adria, or Deckard F'ing Cain before they start to mine the older Diablos.
http://www.polygon.com/2015/1/30/7954413/heroes-storm-new-characters-maps-blizzard-browder
Point is they'll mine everything eventually. I actually hope we eventually get corrupted Leah Diablo that's more of a caster (bone prison) that can transform into Femablo for one ult or create Shadow dimension clones of the enemy team in an AoE with her other. Or Reaper of Souls Adria, or Deckard F'ing Cain before they start to mine the older Diablos.
Dota isn't capped at 100, it's jsut that it's only 1 dude who does the balancing/hero porting from dota1 to 2 and new hero creation. People are pretty mad that not only are not every dota1 hero ported to dota2 but no new hereos have been made in the 5 years since 2 has been out. Diablo should have a diablo 1 skin, he looked so cool even in taht awful graphics, even if it's just a coloruing for him red and white horns
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