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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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Playing this weekend has left me struggling to understand one of the most basic mistakes that people seem to make with this game - not picking synergistic talents.
If you're playing Azmodan, and your stacking damage on your globe, why on earth wouldn't you take the level 7 talent to make your globe faster and do more damage? Similarly, if you are on Nova and have taken snipe master, why wouldn't you take the extra range, mana reduction and cooldown reduction talents?
It's as if people only evaluate talents against the other talents at that level. They don't think about what they have chosen previously, or how it fits together. Utterly perplexes me.
If you're playing Azmodan, and your stacking damage on your globe, why on earth wouldn't you take the level 7 talent to make your globe faster and do more damage? Similarly, if you are on Nova and have taken snipe master, why wouldn't you take the extra range, mana reduction and cooldown reduction talents?
It's as if people only evaluate talents against the other talents at that level. They don't think about what they have chosen previously, or how it fits together. Utterly perplexes me.
Tomster and Erho are probably better on the whole than So1dier and Srey (mainly cause Erho > Srey), and Tomster is definitely one of the most hyped new NA pros by the bigger NA teams so he's a good player to lock up if he continues progressing.
If it was Kaeyoh, Goku, or Zixz who had to take the cold shower because of Srey's BM, though, they are about to meet the true face of BM.
It's interesting, like someone said in the announcement thread on Reddit, in some ways this is very smart. If Erho just gets them through Summer before the flame out its still a good roster and should secure them third. And if he's committed to not being toxic and succeeds, then it's even better. It's really no lose so long as they can make it all the way to regionals without someone quitting.
If it was Kaeyoh, Goku, or Zixz who had to take the cold shower because of Srey's BM, though, they are about to meet the true face of BM.
It's interesting, like someone said in the announcement thread on Reddit, in some ways this is very smart. If Erho just gets them through Summer before the flame out its still a good roster and should secure them third. And if he's committed to not being toxic and succeeds, then it's even better. It's really no lose so long as they can make it all the way to regionals without someone quitting.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The pickups just show that the scene is too incestuous to grow properly. Teams aren't looking for fresh players for pickups, just the known quantities.
It's like they think increased interest in HoTS will attract a bunch of new players but the only thing that does that is HoTD atm, from what I can tell and that's just once a year. And there's nothing on that scale in other regions. I was excited about Tempo 2.0 because it seemed like fresh blood.
Tempo needs a full squad now for the qualifiers and the regionals picking up Erho is shortsighted because they don't have much of a choice.
Sponsors aren't moving in big, though interesting tidbit from last night's State of the Nexus. Around spring this year there was a sudden influx of money from sponsors in EU that resulted in the rosterpocalypse. People were actually being bought out for not chump change.
Lastly, erho got nothing on Breeze apparently, skip to shortly before the end for the actually relevant stuff.
It's like they think increased interest in HoTS will attract a bunch of new players but the only thing that does that is HoTD atm, from what I can tell and that's just once a year. And there's nothing on that scale in other regions. I was excited about Tempo 2.0 because it seemed like fresh blood.
Tempo needs a full squad now for the qualifiers and the regionals picking up Erho is shortsighted because they don't have much of a choice.
Sponsors aren't moving in big, though interesting tidbit from last night's State of the Nexus. Around spring this year there was a sudden influx of money from sponsors in EU that resulted in the rosterpocalypse. People were actually being bought out for not chump change.
Money laundering obviously.
Lastly, erho got nothing on Breeze apparently, skip to shortly before the end for the actually relevant stuff.
I do feel like teams aren't ever looking for anyone new, just established. Tomster and bigempct are the only two newer pros that everyone recognizes and lusted after.
In NA it's simply because they look down on non-pro players. You can hear it repeatedly in their talks on THH. They say they look down on hero league players because Blizzard gives them no "real" ladder to see who is performing well month to month, but even dudes like Srey (who was number one for a bit) were looked down on. They truly think they are a cut above and don't really allow anyone the chance to rise to their level. It always has to be one of the 4-8 or 4-12 feeder teams that brings someone to their attention whom they will then eventually poach. I don't feel like EU looks down on ladder players like NA does (as evidenced by how much more they play it), but def a lack of new blood on big teams there too.
In NA it's simply because they look down on non-pro players. You can hear it repeatedly in their talks on THH. They say they look down on hero league players because Blizzard gives them no "real" ladder to see who is performing well month to month, but even dudes like Srey (who was number one for a bit) were looked down on. They truly think they are a cut above and don't really allow anyone the chance to rise to their level. It always has to be one of the 4-8 or 4-12 feeder teams that brings someone to their attention whom they will then eventually poach. I don't feel like EU looks down on ladder players like NA does (as evidenced by how much more they play it), but def a lack of new blood on big teams there too.
Finn of Ooo
Member
I tried this and I see the benefits for pushing but I feel kind of useless in team fights since I can't generate any minions if we are fighting over objectives. Should I just be pushing the whole time to pressure people into coming to whatever lane I'm in?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Between Blizzcon and the first HGC there was a big lull, where teams were just looking to snipe other teams' rosters, between HGCs there's barely room to breathe and that shows in the recent pickups by teams.
Well you have the jailers at lvl 4(?) but that's why Xul gets worse on specific maps. BoE for instance is one of, if not, his worst.
Finn of Ooo
Member
So what should I be doing in team fights if I go full minion build. Focus on prisoning someone important poison nova-ing and then just scythe poke?
scoobs
Member
Pretty much. I actually prefer the skeletal mages myself, but you've pretty much got it. You can get aggressive with your bone shield and get in a good spot to use your ultimate. Xul, when played correctly, is devastating in team fights. Particularly potent when your team has follow-up CC for his bone prison.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Depends on the situation but it's one of the reasons I'm not that much of a fan of his. Getting off a great Poison Nova is seemingly the most important part. If you have a falstad on your team, tell him to gust when bone prison goes off for some easy pickings.
Looked it up and BoE is his worst map by a wide margin ~4%.
That's not true at all. NA just doesn't look as referenced above. They have plenty of time, they chose not to. Hell, they hardly even play outside of scrims.
jaundicejuice
Member
It's a slur in Russian.
This is the real issue.
The infrastructure in the game just isn't where it needs to be to support the competitive scene (and they are very aware of this in-house.)
Game just wasn't designed with the competitive scene or having one at all in mind. That pivot happened after release.
I think they have more than enough players to find that can make 8 relatively good teams in NA, but they aren't big on giving anyone new chances and due to the fact that they don't play the actual game, only scrims and tournaments, they never encounter these people anyway.
To be clear, though, I don't think I quite lump Erho into the "going back to the well" thing. He was on Complexity/Barrel Boys for only a short period, and just a couple months with Naventic. He's never had a long run anywhere to become established, despite most saying he is more than mechanically capable. I feel like he is a good risk vs reward investment for a team wanting a top tier caliber player. It's someone like madtimmy or Equinox who I'd toss into the "why the fuck are you doing this again" category. Glaurung (and all of Cog, to be honest) rapidly approaching that status.
I think they have more than enough players to find that can make 8 relatively good teams in NA, but they aren't big on giving anyone new chances and due to the fact that they don't play the actual game, only scrims and tournaments, they never encounter these people anyway.
To be clear, though, I don't think I quite lump Erho into the "going back to the well" thing. He was on Complexity/Barrel Boys for only a short period, and just a couple months with Naventic. He's never had a long run anywhere to become established, despite most saying he is more than mechanically capable. I feel like he is a good risk vs reward investment for a team wanting a top tier caliber player. It's someone like madtimmy or Equinox who I'd toss into the "why the fuck are you doing this again" category. Glaurung (and all of Cog, to be honest) rapidly approaching that status.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
What's the issue with CoG? They aren't breaking any records but they are top 4 and 2, 3 contenders.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
True but they can be contenders for top 2 at least
Pretty sure that was corporate we went from closed to open to game launch in like 2 weeks, and the game was still totally half baked. Someone up above said it's time to make some more money.
Since when? We've been saying that since last summer and it's just never happened. They can't ever get out of their own way (nor could Murloc Geniuses, who are now half the team). Lots of potential, never pans out. They are easily the most disappointing HOTS team I can think of on either side of the world versus what people think they should do on paper.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Nope that was Dignitas 2.0, which we never even got to see in action but according to bakery was awful.
CoG could have won the series played at the regional championship just easily as they lost it. That to me makes them contenders for top 2, I'd rank them 4th, w/ blaze incomplete 3rd but both of these teams contend with and for 2nd place
How can a team that we never saw play be more disappointing than a team we've saw fall on their face like 8 or 9 times now? They are like the CLG of HOTS, lol, and Glaurung is a like a poor man's Doublelift.
Tempo, bar implosion due to Erhomania, will be the 3rd team if we're going on talent alone. Kaeyoh is a top tier player, and Tomster is considered a pretty great talent by many despite the narrow pool he's shown. Erho is better than Srey, and they were already 4th at regionals. IMO Blaze can't be considered any better than they were last season/whatever you want to call it because they only won one tournament, and it was one in which they had no practice nor did the team they beat...and then they lost the best player from that lineup. I'd like to see them continue that run, but I'm skeptical.
Cog is Cog. I'd fucking love for them to get it together, but I've lost all hope of that ever happening. Glau is one of my favorites, but gat damn is he stubborn about his picks and the play style he forces them to play.
Perhaps we'll get lucky and have 5 fairly good teams this time and a real competition for 5 through 3, or maybe even 5 through 2 if the drama continues in NVT. I need to see more from Cog in games against the real teams, and more from Blaze period to say that, though.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I thought you don't buy into the whole rewriting history retroactively teams pull. We don't know how prepared Blaze and NVT were, all we know is Blaze beat NVT twice in succession 2-0 and took C9 to a 5th game. I would have put them top 3 before Bigempct left and excluded them from my ranking because they have an incomplete roster. So CoG is already an auto include in top 4s. Dunno how things will shake out within Tempo they are an unknown quantity but I could see them taking 3rd place as you say. CoG does have some great players outside of Glau as well, yeah murlocs never set the world on fire but that people expected more from them says much about the quality of the individual players.
And damn right a team we never got to see can be a disappointment. The wait made the anticipation grow all the more, making the crumbling of it all the worse.
And damn right a team we never got to see can be a disappointment. The wait made the anticipation grow all the more, making the crumbling of it all the worse.
Li Ming is way more annoying than Nova. I hate getting shot by stuff from the fog of war more than anything. I can see the Nova shimmer at least.
Well, the things we know:
1) McIntyre was out of town the week before this tournament and Erho implied a lack of preparation, Zuna said they didn't know the meta, and I'm pretty sure one other said they didn't even prepare at all for ETS.
2) Bigempct was on THH and said the team, as constructed at ETS, had not even practiced IIRC. They were just winging it.
3) It was ETS. That's pretty much all that needs to be said IMO lol, probably should've been point #1.
That's our point about the team, though. Great, great individual players, they just don't work together well as a team when it matters. It really defies logic and the only thing to point at is their comps and reliance on getting Glau on the heroes he wants instead of just drafting sound.
To me that's a different kind of disappointment. That's "what might have been" like "I never knew this girl liked me in college and didn't find out til after she got engaged" type stuff, lol. There's no way in telling how it would've went. With Cog, we've heard before several tourneys from Glaurung and other pros how they expect this team to finally emerge, "the meta favors us, if we don't do it now it's never going to happen" and shit like that...and just disappointment after disappointment.
I don't get how anyone can't think Cog are a dissapointment at this stage, and I put that entirely down to Glaurong. I really like the guy, find him far more personable and entertaining than most pro's and love watching his stream. But the fact he will only play three heroes (Zeratul, Illidan, Sonya) simply isn't acceptable for a pro player. It incredibly weakens his team, because you can always draft around them, and that shows.
He needs to broaden his base. This game isn't as fixed as Lol, and you cannot count on having a melee assassin in every comp.
He needs to broaden his base. This game isn't as fixed as Lol, and you cannot count on having a melee assassin in every comp.
okay but
hmm
I think his Zera play is simply repetitive. Blaze's Yuuj illustrated why in a stream, basically saying he does the same thing with every engage, so it's easy to predict how and when he will blink and then punish him once he's used his escape.
I disagree with you, though. They've forced melee since he joined them last year in the Road to Blizzcon. Whether it was viable or not. Why doesn't he play Thrall or Greymane more? Why doesn't he apply that melee mentality to offtanking, or ever go range? It's hard to argue it's anything but a bad pick if it never works against any real team mane. lol
they prioritize it too hard in draft for sure, but usually they end up w/ a pretty good comp, they just end up not playing well throughout the game
like it's less head slamming into the wall than a lot of ppl like the characterize it as
i think glau's pool is prtty similar to any melee player in na atm except i guess he likes to play xul even tho he's not great at it
like i think mac is a better melee player than him even tho mac hasnt played it in a while
ive seen him play falstad, you dont want him to play falstad lol
but i mean i know what you mean about them picking things and stuff just not working out, it's just that they like theoretically end up w/ good workable comps but are bad at being consistent throughout the game w/ them, like I don't think theyd be a better team w/ different picks
like it's less head slamming into the wall than a lot of ppl like the characterize it as
i think glau's pool is prtty similar to any melee player in na atm except i guess he likes to play xul even tho he's not great at it
like i think mac is a better melee player than him even tho mac hasnt played it in a while
ive seen him play falstad, you dont want him to play falstad lol
but i mean i know what you mean about them picking things and stuff just not working out, it's just that they like theoretically end up w/ good workable comps but are bad at being consistent throughout the game w/ them, like I don't think theyd be a better team w/ different picks
Who is a melee only player in NA, though? Zuna plays ranged and melee. McIntyre was ranged and is now back to melee. No one in particular on c9 plays melee, though technically that's iDream's job and we know he plays both ranged and melee (as does Arth).
I don't even know that Tempo Storm has a melee guy. Goku is gonna be now, but he was also ranged. bkid plays melee for Blaze. Not sure I've ever seen him play anything but tank or melee.
He'd be the closest to your assessment of a small pool IMO. Everyone else has done both excepting Glaurung which is part of why he gets that stigma. He's very stubborn on what he'll play. Even more stubborn on stream, typically.
I don't even know that Tempo Storm has a melee guy. Goku is gonna be now, but he was also ranged. bkid plays melee for Blaze. Not sure I've ever seen him play anything but tank or melee.
He'd be the closest to your assessment of a small pool IMO. Everyone else has done both excepting Glaurung which is part of why he gets that stigma. He's very stubborn on what he'll play. Even more stubborn on stream, typically.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
ad 1&2) so both were unprepared but Blaze still beat them 2-0 twice. Does that mean the difference in strength between these teams comes down to preparation?
ad 3) The same could have been said about C9 when they won at the Town Hall Invitational, except we made a huge deal out of it.
It's not like they've only been losing, they were still a solid 3rd/4th place even when we and many others were expecting more.
Disappointment nonetheless, to me far and away the biggest when it comes to a HotS team, whether that qualifies for you isn't my problem. But I've said cognitive must be disappointed in the results myself before so we really shouldn't make such a deal out of it.
That's kind of apples and oranges. A team knocking on the door for months and months of a dominant team and finally pushing through the glass ceiling versus an also-ran surprising a top 2 team out of the blue? One has months of backstory built in and of course it will be a huge deal. The other was mostly likely a flash in the pan.
And I already said previously they were both unprepared. Like 3 or 4 times now.
This seems to be your tack on a lot of things. Very terse, to be kind. I never said your disappointment wasn't valid, just that it's a completely different category compared to what we're discussing because we never saw them play and succeed or fail.
yeah i feel this, in this game everyone should be versatile w/r/t type of characters they play
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The HGC and regionals have made these cycles much shorter, Blaze were shirking on success before so breaking through that was still exciting to me. I don't understand why you're fixating on the unprepared, both teams had equal footing and one beat the other twice, that's the point. Whether both were prepared or both were unprepared has little bearing if it was mutual.
It's terse for a reason since there's just no point furthering that argument any longer, we've both more than said our share and not come any closer to an agreement or compromise. The bolded part is also an oxymoron imo.
Your disappointment in that team falling apart before it ever played is valid. What we were discussing, however, is what team was the most disappointing that we've seen versus what people thought we would see...so therefore, what you brought up should be a different discussion altogether.
And it's always terse. I would pay to see Familienoberhauptvogel legitimately happy or excited or glad about one thing. Just one. Per week. Is it possible?
This conversation:
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Alur said:
The only thing Dignitas 2.0 didn't apply to was the usage of present tense, arguing that point I'd have to agree with you, the way you argued instead not.
Maybe I don't see it because I'm obviously biased but I usually become terse, which is also a word I had to look up, when I tire of an argument which either means I lost it and don't want to concede it or that I just feel the argument not leading to a satisfying conclusion on either side.
Alur back to bullying
My favorite HOTS meme
not, but I do love how it is relentlessly brought up every time I defend any stance I take. srsly ppl, shit is old, let it go
mr stroke
Member
How accurate is that tier list? Just leveled up enough for ranked league and none of my mains are in tier 1
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