Sure, we're also back to not knowing who's on deck for HOTS though, so this would be the perfect place to announce/demo the next two.
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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
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Oh, that was supposed to be the implication!why not both
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Apparently Panda Global got GEICO to sponsor them that's pretty big, now they gotta deliver though or it's another round of poaching.
I think it's way too soon for D4 to be announced
When are you expecting Diablo 4?
Durrzerker
Banned
I'm guessing summer will be mostly Overwatch heroes, honestly, with the game's release coming.
brickwalker0
Member
holy shit i took this advice and built her talents around poison and i had the BEST game with Lunara in a long while.
the build: http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/lunara#rySb
jaundicejuice
Member
Diablo 3 seems like it has one more expansion in it.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
And Blaze apparently isn't done. Picked up people from a bunch of former teams and HotD. Dorm is probably really good for networking, wish other region would get such supported amateur tournaments.
Solo queue HL is a salt factory, why do I keep doing this to myself.
Maybe KT, the reason you died 12 times is because you kept yelling at the rest of us in the middle of team fights? Maybe because you thought you were a frontliner and jumped in front of Johanna everytime? How am I supposed to get past rank 10 when these are the people I'm matched with?!
Maybe KT, the reason you died 12 times is because you kept yelling at the rest of us in the middle of team fights? Maybe because you thought you were a frontliner and jumped in front of Johanna everytime? How am I supposed to get past rank 10 when these are the people I'm matched with?!
jaundicejuice
Member
Tracer is a hard counter to Li-Ming, any of the Mages really. Kael can Living Bomb her, he might stun her but she's so hard to hit.
Durrzerker
Banned
Getting better with Tracer. She really does turn Li Ming completely free.
scoobs
Member
What are the counters for Tracer? I feel like shes good against everything because shes more mobile, and can't die because of recall
Ranged AA heroes.
Durrzerker
Banned
scoobs
Member
So Falstad, Raynor, Valla and Lunara? Am I missing anyone else?
I actually played some Valla/Lunara against her and it was a nightmare. She's like Valla on steroids and crack at the same time.
scoobs
Member
I don't envy the nova who's trying to land snipes on her. I really don't think any hero that depends on skillshots has any chance against her.
Durrzerker
Banned
Yeah, she crushes Valla imo. Tychus absolutely dunks on her though. So does Azmodan and other tough ranged characters. I think Xul can handle her pretty well too.
scoobs
Member
I'm a lvl 11 Xul, and I can confirm that he's definitely not a hard counter to her. You bone prison her and she just jukes it with her recall, or blink so far away Xul can't even begin to do damage. I'd say any character with low or no mobility is a sitting duck, and an easy kill for her.
Durrzerker
Banned
Yeah, 1v1, not so well, more meant he can melt her very quickly in teamfights, sorry. 1v1, the only ones I can think of are Tychus, Azmodan, Raynor. I don't play too many heroes though.
scoobs
Member
The problem is you have to get so lucky to ever catch her out in a team fight. Because recall exists in its current form (and especially at lvl 20) she can get away with just about anything and have a get-out-of-jail-free card just in case shit goes sideways.
I think in high end competitive play it will be much easier to CC and nuke her down, but in HL and QM she's kind of an unstoppable force. Your team has to be absolutely on point to deal with her
jaundicejuice
Member
I don't think Tracer has a hard counter 1v1. If there is, I have yet to see it in the games I've been playing. Every hero I've seen mentioned that sort of can counter Tracer, really just trades with her and it depends on the situation. If any of those heroes get caught out alone against a Tracer with no nearby safe ground to fall back to or allies nearby, a lot of them just die. She can dodge so many abilities and rewind out of so much CC.
Maximus.
Member
I agree, Tracer is fucking tough 1v1. She was dominating me when I was Li-Ming, but once I called my team to play some D, it was okay.
To be fair, Li-ming is one of the worse characters in the game to go against her 1v1, along with Jaina.
But her win rate continues to shoot up, especially at the top level (62% in masters & diamond right now), so it's likely we'll see some nerfs if it doesn't settle down soon. I just hope that it's not another case like the Punisher - where the community took so long to figure out the mechanic, Blizzard nerfed it heavily, and now it's worthless because we eventually got there.
jediyoshi
Member
Tracer + Total Recall auto wins 1v1. It's disgusting and I love it.
To be fair, TL completely buggered up the fight I was watching (defending the midle fort against a late game punisher). they repeatedly had all of the enemy team low, especially Kael - and didn't manage to kill a single one. For some reason they didn't combine their ults to secure a kill which would have led to Li-Ming happening. thrall in particular used is sunder WAY too late, and it would have instant killed Kael if he had used it earlier.
Is anyone eliminated from todays matches, or is this just the seeding stuff?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Not even a month, KT is already back to being first pick first ban.
Liquid playing booty. Team Liquid is europe's CoG, you know they should be doing better but they just eff it up time and again.
Liquid playing booty. Team Liquid is europe's CoG, you know they should be doing better but they just eff it up time and again.
I don't expect to hear an announcement at all this year.
Maybe something like gamescom next year, then the next wow expansion at blizzcon?
That's because it's gonna be a diablo fighting game. Believe. It could be like MKX with the three different ability sets for everyone.
this will never happen
RumblingRosco
Member
Y'all talking Blizzcon? I'm preeeetty sure they'll announce WarCraft 4, Warcraft 1-3 HD, and World of Warcraft: The Legacy Servers this year. Totally 100% sure.
Oh and Sonya will be removed from HOTS to be replaced by a Rock n' Roll Racing car.
Oh and Sonya will be removed from HOTS to be replaced by a Rock n' Roll Racing car.
Durrzerker
Banned
I will say this: while Tracer very likely needs tuning, I think matchup knowledge also plays a part. Like - I think she needs tweaks, but I also really don't think she should get them hastily. Blizzard should let the data level out some. Because I think Tracer's strength/winrate comes from the fact she can snipe backlines so well. She can sneak in, destroy Morales/Li Ming/other critical squishies, then get out.
In this respect, I think she's basically the same as Nova/Zeratul, just...better. And while this requires some watching, I also think she's already very balanced, or sometimes even weak, against characters who can shove her off, such as less-glassy assassins - Tychus, Kerrigan, etc - and warriors. She's basically a 'skillshot killer', which makes her DEVASTATING against characters like Jaina, Li Ming, and Tyrande - but I think if they nerf her, they need to do it in a way that doesn't affect her already unimpressive performance against characters like Raynor and warriors like Stitches and Artanis.
This isn't to say I don't think she can beat these heroes 1v1 - she often can, though as I've said, I absolutely ruin her day on Tychus - moreso that in a mid or late-game teamfight, when ults are flying and AoE, huge damage is everywhere, she's a pretty average threat, and that overnerfing her could bring her down to Nova's level, which is a bad place to be.
In this respect, I think she's basically the same as Nova/Zeratul, just...better. And while this requires some watching, I also think she's already very balanced, or sometimes even weak, against characters who can shove her off, such as less-glassy assassins - Tychus, Kerrigan, etc - and warriors. She's basically a 'skillshot killer', which makes her DEVASTATING against characters like Jaina, Li Ming, and Tyrande - but I think if they nerf her, they need to do it in a way that doesn't affect her already unimpressive performance against characters like Raynor and warriors like Stitches and Artanis.
This isn't to say I don't think she can beat these heroes 1v1 - she often can, though as I've said, I absolutely ruin her day on Tychus - moreso that in a mid or late-game teamfight, when ults are flying and AoE, huge damage is everywhere, she's a pretty average threat, and that overnerfing her could bring her down to Nova's level, which is a bad place to be.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'll just wait a couple weeks until the love for tracer inevitably turns into annoyance at the oppressiveness like it did with Li Ming.
Blizz has historically waited a couple weeks for balancing if it isnt something that's conpletely egregious so i dont think you need to worry. They are also testing out new mm so the data coming back needs to be recontextualized w/ stuff like that and tracer accessibility and etc etc
scoobs
Member
Her damage is fine, its her recall ability that makes her broken. More specifically, the real culprit to her OPness is the level 7 talent 'Spatial Echo.' This is basically an Ess of Johan situation, where its a talent that takes a relatively difficult to play hero and turns her into face roll central. 100% chance it gets nerfed or removed completely.
Blink > blink > blink > kill someone > recall cuz ur almost dead > blink > blink > now I'm in my base healing at the well. Fair and balanced.
Think they'll also cut off another 100hp or so. Shes just too hard to kill, its kind of absurd.
Blink > blink > blink > kill someone > recall cuz ur almost dead > blink > blink > now I'm in my base healing at the well. Fair and balanced.
Think they'll also cut off another 100hp or so. Shes just too hard to kill, its kind of absurd.
Re: Tracer OPness or not:
I have not found her oppressive for or against in the same way we've seen in the past with Li-Ming, old KT, etc. Her winrate continues to creep up, though, so that means nerfs are a-coming unless people are terrible with her post-wide launch next Tuesday. It is interesting how her winrate drops a tiny bit each bracket you go down, though.
The rest of this is purely from a QM perspective, as I've not taken her into hero league.
Tracer doesn't exactly get out of jail free with her Recall. She gets out, sure, but pre-20 she gets chunked most likely. She will survive though, I agree. It's also worth noting that Recall is a 24 second (talented it's 20 seconds) cooldown. By the time you can use it again odds are the fight is won or lost. Most every Tracer I've seen thus far either flanks from the back with Q, drops W + R and E's out, or darts in from the front an does the same. After that point, they are basically on the fringe of the fight for the next ~20ish seconds. That's why I don't find her particularly oppressive or OP like Li-Ming was (and some would argue still is). If the team follows up and your combo nets a kill, then you are golden to continue in the fight as Tracer, but I've seen very little of that even at 3k MMR. Typically it seems better to wait to dart in til someone is taking damage than the way most everyone is doing it currently.
There's also something to be said for how much impact poke has on Tracer's hit pool. If you're in a lane, or people are tip-toeing around a team fight, you are inevitably gonna catch a multi-shot or some bullshit from Li-Ming or someone else. You can't blink around everything that comes your way unless you're just miserly as hell with your cooldowns...and if you are, you aren't doing any damage anyway, so that's a win for the enemy. All it takes is a little bit of damage to put her at risk the next time she engages. The initial disengage by Tracer is typically successful so I feel like that's where a lot of the complaints come from. If you don't have Uther or Brightwing or whoever to catch her with the targeted CC, you have to eat that damage. On the flipside, her burst is pretty weak so it's not like it's life threatening so long as you have a healer and a team paying attention.
As for the heroes everyone is discussing, this is my experience with each in team fights and 1v1:
Falstad - Haven't found it too terribly one sided either way thanks to his W. If you blink in and he hits you with the W, you are either stuck or have to use your E and you're out a 24 second cooldown. He also has his own escape that can go through terrain where Tracer cannot follow. If Falstad is otherwise engaged, Tracer shits on him. Likewise the other way around.
Cho'Gall - It's a poopie fest. You can put out a ton of damage playing against a Cho'Gall, but you're pretty much guaranteed to either have to leave the fight or never get a kill unless the team has CC behind you. The cooldowns are just too frequent for Gall and the damage is too much. Sooner or later you run out of cooldowns to dodge shit.
Greymane - Has shit on me on more than one occasion. If he gets into Worgen and you don't have Recall or Blink up to get far enough away, it's riparooni. Gotta play conservative with those cooldowns with him in a teamfight.
Illidan - In general you can outpace Illidan, but it's closer than some have let on. In my experience it's very much on the rest of the comp around the two heroes unless you get into a 1v1 scenario.
Jaina - Not a terribly hard kill, but can be annoying in an overall team fight if you're attempting to get on a different target than Jaina thanks to the Blizzard.
Kael'thas - I have to disagree with whoever said it was hard for KT against Tracer. He certainly fares far better than the other mages. His W chunks her down and you can't avoid it. If he catches you in a stun in a team fight or places a Flamestrike that you blink into or have no blink to get out of, it's a huge amount of damage. In general, his damage is just as annoying to Tracer as Tracer's is to him...only Tracer dies easier if she's caught. If you can get him on the run, he's as easy to kill as Jaina, however, provided you don't eat any stuns. He's probably the assassin outside of Lunara I least like to face on Tracer.
Kerrigan - Combo may as well not exist against Tracer. Negated.
Li-Ming - Tracer is the hero we've been waiting for to shit on Li-Ming since Rehgar got nerfed back to reality. If Li-Ming catches you with any of the poke from the fog, it hurts majorly, but once that W cooldown is down you can smash her face. You have to be careful for Calamity if you get low. I got gibbed once by it trying to finish a kill on Li-Ming not even thinking.
Lunara - Super god damn annoying. The poison sucks when you have so little health. If you can get the jump on her, you can win this one pretty handily...but if you have any face time with Lunara that doesn't involve you doing your W + R combo first, you're going to lose the damage battle or at best blink away with a bar full of poison after you kill her so you can die somewhere else trying to find your healer/a well.
Nova - In general, you have little to worry about with the Snipes. She'll land one or two because you can't always be blinking, but that's not too terrible. The issue with Nova is the Pinning Shot putting vulnerability on you when you attempt to dash in for a W + R in a team fight. Provided anyone hits you with anything after that, your health is fucking chunked or you're dead so you have to be very careful with her around. I got insta-deleted twice yesterday thanks to Pinning Shot (with Crippling Shot talent) and some follow-up.
Raynor - He's annoying. The heal is even more annoying. The AA's just chunk you down so that even if you win, you are still out of the fight afterward.
The Butcher - He's kind of free damage for Tracer. He can seriously hurt her if she gets caught with no CD's or some form of CC, but otherwise she kind of toys with the fat guy.
Thrall - Thrall is interesting for Tracer because his poke also functions as a heal and her damage is kinda shit. You can poke at him but he also pokes at you with Q (and I would go Q build against her if it were me). If Thrall's allowed uptime on a hero, she can't out damage his healing except with her W + R combo in my experience. If he has no hero to target, though, she'll wear him down.
Tychus - Haven't really seen much Tychus, to be honest. The ones we saw we destroyed, but others in thread are saying he's a good counter. I have no real opinion to be honest.
Valla - Valla's poke is super annoying with Tracer. If she's dropped her cooldowns, though, you can end her pretty well. If she's an accessory in a team fight and not who Tracer is focusing, though, she can do some real damage with the autos and multi-shot spray. And RIP a good bit of your health if you hard engage and she has Strafe.
Zeratul - Mainly annoying because you have no way to break him out of stealth. He can get some damage in, but you can chase him to the ends of the Earth. Really depends on how smart the Zeratul player is in regards to what you can do to him. If engages you in a team fight where he can blink back to the safety of his team, he might be able to do some work. If he tries to engage you out in the field, he's gonna eat it.
Azmodan - Nothing really to say on this one. The laser is annoying but you can blink out, but he has so much HP it's like you're shooting into a brick wall. You can whittle him down, but it's not even really worth the time without help and he's often the last in a team fight to die as well.
Gazlowe - Turrets are major abuse against Tracer because even just two or three shots are significant. If you can get him out of his nest, he's a free kill. If he's in his nest, you should focus the turrets or just go play elsewhere. If he's got 2 or 3 up in a team fight with no one paying attention, it'll be a bad time.
Murky - Finally, an HP pool that you can quickly delete.
Nazeebo - The poke is a bit frustrating - particularly late - but if blows his load and he's far enough out in a lane he's a free kill early. In team fights his poke is annoying as well, because you can't dodge all of it because it kind of goes everywhere, but he's not particularly troublesome in a head to head or anything.
Sgt. Hammer - If she's in siege, you can dart in and do your W + R + E and do some damage but you can't really kill her til your CD's are back up. If she's not in siege, RIP Hammer.
Sylvanas - The W and Q's are a bit brutal for Tracer, but if she gets greedy with her escape she's gonna die. I think this is a pretty fun matchup if other stuff is going on. Same thing applies with Sylv's vuln as Nova's vuln.
The Lost Vikings - You are pretty good at killing these guys.
Xul - In a team fight he's a bit aggravating, especially if he goes Poison Nova and you get stuck in it with no cooldowns or via other means. 1v1 he's not too bad.
Zagara - Her Hunter Killer will eat Tracer if she doesn't have enough mobility CD's up to evade. Basically all the minions she spawns, in general, are a nuisance that can become deadly if left untended. If she pops Hunter Killer on someone else, though, Tracer can get on her and stick like no other.
I don't know about soon, but it's possible. Browder has alluded to something "more" for people who continue leveling, but I would venture the best bet is simply more tints for the master skins we already have based on his responses.
I think Spatial Echo will get nerfed as well. I don't think it makes her faceroll, however. I don't think she's faceroll at all. That talent definitely makes what she does much easier, though.
I have not found her oppressive for or against in the same way we've seen in the past with Li-Ming, old KT, etc. Her winrate continues to creep up, though, so that means nerfs are a-coming unless people are terrible with her post-wide launch next Tuesday. It is interesting how her winrate drops a tiny bit each bracket you go down, though.
The rest of this is purely from a QM perspective, as I've not taken her into hero league.
Tracer doesn't exactly get out of jail free with her Recall. She gets out, sure, but pre-20 she gets chunked most likely. She will survive though, I agree. It's also worth noting that Recall is a 24 second (talented it's 20 seconds) cooldown. By the time you can use it again odds are the fight is won or lost. Most every Tracer I've seen thus far either flanks from the back with Q, drops W + R and E's out, or darts in from the front an does the same. After that point, they are basically on the fringe of the fight for the next ~20ish seconds. That's why I don't find her particularly oppressive or OP like Li-Ming was (and some would argue still is). If the team follows up and your combo nets a kill, then you are golden to continue in the fight as Tracer, but I've seen very little of that even at 3k MMR. Typically it seems better to wait to dart in til someone is taking damage than the way most everyone is doing it currently.
There's also something to be said for how much impact poke has on Tracer's hit pool. If you're in a lane, or people are tip-toeing around a team fight, you are inevitably gonna catch a multi-shot or some bullshit from Li-Ming or someone else. You can't blink around everything that comes your way unless you're just miserly as hell with your cooldowns...and if you are, you aren't doing any damage anyway, so that's a win for the enemy. All it takes is a little bit of damage to put her at risk the next time she engages. The initial disengage by Tracer is typically successful so I feel like that's where a lot of the complaints come from. If you don't have Uther or Brightwing or whoever to catch her with the targeted CC, you have to eat that damage. On the flipside, her burst is pretty weak so it's not like it's life threatening so long as you have a healer and a team paying attention.
As for the heroes everyone is discussing, this is my experience with each in team fights and 1v1:
Falstad - Haven't found it too terribly one sided either way thanks to his W. If you blink in and he hits you with the W, you are either stuck or have to use your E and you're out a 24 second cooldown. He also has his own escape that can go through terrain where Tracer cannot follow. If Falstad is otherwise engaged, Tracer shits on him. Likewise the other way around.
Cho'Gall - It's a poopie fest. You can put out a ton of damage playing against a Cho'Gall, but you're pretty much guaranteed to either have to leave the fight or never get a kill unless the team has CC behind you. The cooldowns are just too frequent for Gall and the damage is too much. Sooner or later you run out of cooldowns to dodge shit.
Greymane - Has shit on me on more than one occasion. If he gets into Worgen and you don't have Recall or Blink up to get far enough away, it's riparooni. Gotta play conservative with those cooldowns with him in a teamfight.
Illidan - In general you can outpace Illidan, but it's closer than some have let on. In my experience it's very much on the rest of the comp around the two heroes unless you get into a 1v1 scenario.
Jaina - Not a terribly hard kill, but can be annoying in an overall team fight if you're attempting to get on a different target than Jaina thanks to the Blizzard.
Kael'thas - I have to disagree with whoever said it was hard for KT against Tracer. He certainly fares far better than the other mages. His W chunks her down and you can't avoid it. If he catches you in a stun in a team fight or places a Flamestrike that you blink into or have no blink to get out of, it's a huge amount of damage. In general, his damage is just as annoying to Tracer as Tracer's is to him...only Tracer dies easier if she's caught. If you can get him on the run, he's as easy to kill as Jaina, however, provided you don't eat any stuns. He's probably the assassin outside of Lunara I least like to face on Tracer.
Kerrigan - Combo may as well not exist against Tracer. Negated.
Li-Ming - Tracer is the hero we've been waiting for to shit on Li-Ming since Rehgar got nerfed back to reality. If Li-Ming catches you with any of the poke from the fog, it hurts majorly, but once that W cooldown is down you can smash her face. You have to be careful for Calamity if you get low. I got gibbed once by it trying to finish a kill on Li-Ming not even thinking.
Lunara - Super god damn annoying. The poison sucks when you have so little health. If you can get the jump on her, you can win this one pretty handily...but if you have any face time with Lunara that doesn't involve you doing your W + R combo first, you're going to lose the damage battle or at best blink away with a bar full of poison after you kill her so you can die somewhere else trying to find your healer/a well.
Nova - In general, you have little to worry about with the Snipes. She'll land one or two because you can't always be blinking, but that's not too terrible. The issue with Nova is the Pinning Shot putting vulnerability on you when you attempt to dash in for a W + R in a team fight. Provided anyone hits you with anything after that, your health is fucking chunked or you're dead so you have to be very careful with her around. I got insta-deleted twice yesterday thanks to Pinning Shot (with Crippling Shot talent) and some follow-up.
Raynor - He's annoying. The heal is even more annoying. The AA's just chunk you down so that even if you win, you are still out of the fight afterward.
The Butcher - He's kind of free damage for Tracer. He can seriously hurt her if she gets caught with no CD's or some form of CC, but otherwise she kind of toys with the fat guy.
Thrall - Thrall is interesting for Tracer because his poke also functions as a heal and her damage is kinda shit. You can poke at him but he also pokes at you with Q (and I would go Q build against her if it were me). If Thrall's allowed uptime on a hero, she can't out damage his healing except with her W + R combo in my experience. If he has no hero to target, though, she'll wear him down.
Tychus - Haven't really seen much Tychus, to be honest. The ones we saw we destroyed, but others in thread are saying he's a good counter. I have no real opinion to be honest.
Valla - Valla's poke is super annoying with Tracer. If she's dropped her cooldowns, though, you can end her pretty well. If she's an accessory in a team fight and not who Tracer is focusing, though, she can do some real damage with the autos and multi-shot spray. And RIP a good bit of your health if you hard engage and she has Strafe.
Zeratul - Mainly annoying because you have no way to break him out of stealth. He can get some damage in, but you can chase him to the ends of the Earth. Really depends on how smart the Zeratul player is in regards to what you can do to him. If engages you in a team fight where he can blink back to the safety of his team, he might be able to do some work. If he tries to engage you out in the field, he's gonna eat it.
Azmodan - Nothing really to say on this one. The laser is annoying but you can blink out, but he has so much HP it's like you're shooting into a brick wall. You can whittle him down, but it's not even really worth the time without help and he's often the last in a team fight to die as well.
Gazlowe - Turrets are major abuse against Tracer because even just two or three shots are significant. If you can get him out of his nest, he's a free kill. If he's in his nest, you should focus the turrets or just go play elsewhere. If he's got 2 or 3 up in a team fight with no one paying attention, it'll be a bad time.
Murky - Finally, an HP pool that you can quickly delete.
Nazeebo - The poke is a bit frustrating - particularly late - but if blows his load and he's far enough out in a lane he's a free kill early. In team fights his poke is annoying as well, because you can't dodge all of it because it kind of goes everywhere, but he's not particularly troublesome in a head to head or anything.
Sgt. Hammer - If she's in siege, you can dart in and do your W + R + E and do some damage but you can't really kill her til your CD's are back up. If she's not in siege, RIP Hammer.
Sylvanas - The W and Q's are a bit brutal for Tracer, but if she gets greedy with her escape she's gonna die. I think this is a pretty fun matchup if other stuff is going on. Same thing applies with Sylv's vuln as Nova's vuln.
The Lost Vikings - You are pretty good at killing these guys.
Xul - In a team fight he's a bit aggravating, especially if he goes Poison Nova and you get stuck in it with no cooldowns or via other means. 1v1 he's not too bad.
Zagara - Her Hunter Killer will eat Tracer if she doesn't have enough mobility CD's up to evade. Basically all the minions she spawns, in general, are a nuisance that can become deadly if left untended. If she pops Hunter Killer on someone else, though, Tracer can get on her and stick like no other.
I don't know about soon, but it's possible. Browder has alluded to something "more" for people who continue leveling, but I would venture the best bet is simply more tints for the master skins we already have based on his responses.
I think Spatial Echo will get nerfed as well. I don't think it makes her faceroll, however. I don't think she's faceroll at all. That talent definitely makes what she does much easier, though.
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