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[jaundicejuice]

Its real hard to counter a hero that has 3 charges of blink, a time rewinding ability that is better than 90% of ultimates in the game, and running auto attacks. I'm extremely curious how they intend on bringing her in line with the other assassins in the game.

Damage should interrupt her ability to cast blink, then she can be aggressive and chase but can't reliably use blink as an escape tool. That would make DoT damage a good counter: Azmodan with certain talents, baseline Lunara, Xul with one ult (if it connects), illidan with the fire aura, Chen keg smash/fire breath combo, Zag with certain talents, etc.

 

[Maledict]

If damage interrupted her ability to blink she would be basically useless and unable to blink. Tracer always takes damage going in unless she's chasing a tank, and even then a lot of them can hurt her. It would make her blink utterly utterly worthless in combat.

You can't remove the blink from her, it's key to the entire feel of playing Tracer - and to their credit, She feels *exactly* like Tracer from over watch, they did a superb job with her.

I also disagree with her recall ability being better than 90% of ultimates in the game. Sorry but that's just silly. If that's the case everyone should have been shouting about Tassadar for the last two years, because if he goes Racecar build he's much harder than Tracer to kill. Two invulns that massively heal you and let you move whilst invuln at high speeds, and one of those invulns triggers automatically? A get out of jail card that doesn't heal you is not better than most heroics - it doesn't win team fights and it doesn't win objectives.

I know I'm definitely on the defending Tracer band wagon, and it's clearly just because my experience fighting her has her not being anywhere near as OP as hits logs is currently showing for her. I know that means I'm getting. Lucky and she needs needs, but I think altering her fundamental kit in that way would basically destroy the character. I'm far more convinced she needs nerfs to the recall at 7 talent to start with and then see where it goes from there.

 

[scoobs]

If damage interrupted her ability to blink she would be basically useless and unable to blink. Tracer always takes damage going in unless she's chasing a tank, and even then a lot of them can hurt her. It would make her blink utterly utterly worthless in combat.

You can't remove the blink from her, it's key to the entire feel of playing Tracer - and to their credit, She feels *exactly* like Tracer from over watch, they did a superb job with her.

I also disagree with her recall ability being better than 90% of ultimates in the game. Sorry but that's just silly. If that's the case everyone should have been shouting about Tassadar for the last two years, because if he goes Racecar build he's much harder than Tracer to kill. Two invulns that massively heal you and let you move whilst invuln at high speeds, and one of those invulns triggers automatically? A get out of jail card that doesn't heal you is not better than most heroics - it doesn't win team fights and it doesn't win objectives.

I know I'm definitely on the defending Tracer band wagon, and it's clearly just because my experience fighting her has her not being anywhere near as OP as hits logs is currently showing for her. I know that means I'm getting. Lucky and she needs needs, but I think altering her fundamental kit in that way would basically destroy the character. I'm far more convinced she needs nerfs to the recall at 7 talent to start with and then see where it goes from there.

But it does heal her at level 20

And its the only talent anyone will ever pick at that tier for her.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I know that means I'm getting lucky and she needs nerfs, but I think altering her fundamental kit in that way would basically destroy the character.

Didn't you argue Li Ming needs her range reduced when that's what makes and breaks her in a similar vein?

 

[zoukka]

Tracer has a big skill cap, bad tracers are absolutely useless team members.

 

[scoobs]

What makes or breaks MingLee is her trait and absurdly high burst damage. Her range is both unnecessary and super OP. Hate that turd of a hero.

edit: A hero having a high skill cap is fine, but they shouldn't also have a high skill floor (which is why tracer is top win % in Masters and in Bronze, Li Ming has the same problem)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

W/o the range Ming Lee would be a bad KT.

estar about to end MVP's win streak. Series tied 1-1 MVP record ends 41-1.

 

[Maledict]

Didn't you argue Li Ming needs her range reduced when that's what makes and breaks her in a similar vein?

I think I've said that disintegrate feels oppressive at that range, but other than that my argument has always been its Li-Mings damage at that range which is the issue. She can throw spells from screens away and f they it you die. They just hit way too hard for the effort and skill required, and getting one shorted without recourse sucks.

Saying that, since the last round of nerfs she doesn't fee that bad to me anymore /m- a good character, but by no means dominant. What are other people's experiences? I can't see hotslogs at work...

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

She has been fine statwise since the 2nd round of nerfs. She's at 48-51% winrate across the different leagues right now.

 

[Milly79]

So Dustin tweeted that they need more info than "broken", as MM is working fine according to their data.

 

[Duress]

Captain'd my first ranked game. I led them to victory!

/egostroke

 

[Ketch]

So Dustin tweeted that they need more info than "broken", as MM is working fine according to their data.

More info that matchmaking is broken?

Just tweet him infinite screen caps of shitty QM comps/scoreboards.


I think MM in HL is pretty decent.



I feel like tracer is only slightly better then nova or murky in a team comp. she's only okay in a team fight, and not so great on most objectives, and terrible at laning. She's good at getting picks and 1v1'ing certain (most?) heroes. The skill in playing her comes from kiting/dodging with blink while maximizing right click up time. The cheese/bullshit comes from blink blink blinking in to do a little bit of damaged that is either super annoying, baits a cooldown, or drops a pulse bomb. Not sure if I think diving in to secure a kill is good or bad, but I'm leaning towards good as it's a very hero specific thing to be able to do (like imagine if they took away zera or novas ability to flank to secure a back line kill on a low hero). I think you nerf tracer by increasing recall cooldown and decreasing her pulse bomb charge rate, which would require her to blink more skill fully and punisher her more for wasting pulse bombs and recalls.

So increase recall cd to 30, make the level talent reduce it to 24, then increase the pulse bomb charge right and buff the charge rate talents and put them on same tier as the good recall talents.


I wonder what nova's win rate would be if she just came out today. Is she easier to counter then tracer? Or is everybody just a lot better at it now? Of course everyone will say that she's easier to counter but I don't really think so.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

EU pros started complaining about HL on Twitter, saying it's gotten way worse, that's about as much confirmation you need.

 

[Maledict]

EU pros started complaining about HL on Twitter, saying it's gotten way worse, that's about as much confirmation you need.

I'm not going mad then? (See my earlier post).

I honestly didn't think it possible for a rank 1 to be matched with TWO I ranked players (and they weren't even partied). Plus two games on the trot I only got 85 points for winning, and I haven't had that few points for months.

Something absolutely feels like it's changed, and I'm glad it's not me.

 

[Alur]

Captain'd my first ranked game. I led them to victory!

/egostroke

Feels good doesn't it? Also feels bad when it goes wrong.

I wonder what nova's win rate would be if she just came out today. Is she easier to counter then tracer? Or is everybody just a lot better at it now? Of course everyone will say that she's easier to counter but I don't really think so.

I don't know what her winrate would be above Gold league, but the salt trucks would be emptied like when they predict snow in a southern state.

Something absolutely feels like it's changed, and I'm glad it's not me.

I haven't ventured into HL post Tracer, but the QM matchmaking definitely got super wonky those first 5-6 days after the hero level matchmaking change, and I'm not really sure if it's stopped yet. Just super huge skill gaps (like 1500-2000 MMR from highest to lowest) when the max you'd usually see was like a 2500 playing with 3000 MMRs in a bad game.

The hero level thing added to matchmaking was pretty dumb, TBH.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'm not going mad then? (See my earlier post).

I honestly didn't think it possible for a rank 1 to be matched with TWO 8 ranked players (and they weren't even partied). Plus two games on the trot I only got 85 points for winning, and I haven't had that few points for months.

Something absolutely feels like it's changed, and I'm glad it's not me.

For some reason I can't find them right now but I've seen a couple.

 

[Maledict]

Okay, that post of mine was worse than usual but just to clarify - it was a rank 1 player matched with two, non-partied, unranked players in a hero league game. That should not ever be happening according to the changes they made before Christmas.

 

[Alur]

Watched McIntyre play Rexxar while duoing with Fan's girlfriend Rentaro. Observations:

1) That new leash range is huge. Looks way more fun now.
2) Mac's interactions with the bear/hero are what made a bunch of us get into him in the first place
3) After watching her play and listening to her talk about the game for a while now, Rentaro could probably replace just about any flex on the non-top 2 or 3 teams in NA right now. She's pretty good, would love to see that.

Also...scoobs, I knew I'd see you Skiba-ing up that blink 182 thread man.

Spoiler

Also saw that dude getting righteous for whatever reason, lol, but anyway...<3 Skiba

 

[brian!]

Yes rentaro is legit and from what i can tell from her stream she is open to criticism and prtty clear-headed

"Mac's interaction w/ bear" is vague enough that i can convince myself that mac was on stream playing w/ bear cubs

 

[Alur]

Yes rentaro is legit and from what i can tell from her stream she is open to criticism and prtty clear-headed

Yep. Seems to be a trait that Fan also shares.

"Mac's interaction w/ bear" is vague enough that i can convince myself that mac was on stream playing w/ bear cubs

Just his reaction/commentary to playing Misha/Rexxar, or "the bear" as he often calls it.

 

[Milly79]

Na'Vi dropped their team

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Not entirely unsurprising, 4 months w/o results. The roster clearly didn't work out. Probably good for the scene even, now a bunch of tier 3 teams can soak up the free agents and contend with the tier 2 teams.

 

[kirblar]

If she's good, would make sense to have her as their sub.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Good news, Maledict isn't insane

Hello everyone,

Following the release of our most recent major patch, we’ve seen a slight widening of the skill gap between players in Hero League matches, most noticeably affecting players on the upper end of the matchmaking rating (MMR) spectrum.

After investigating and identifying the issue, we’ve just released a fix that should help to reduce MMR differences across players who are matched together in Hero League games. Thank you for your continued feedback on the matchmaking system! We hope you’ll keep sharing your thoughts and experiences with us as we make additional improvements in the future.

Thank you!

 

[Maledict]

Well, at least not based on this issue.

And yes, my hero league games since the patch have been *shit*. Truly shit. It's clear something very wrong has happened, and the skill disparity and drafts were just mad.

(I picked Kaelthas in 5th spot on my team. after such notables as Hammer and Raynor had been picked).

 

[protonium]

.

 

[Maledict]

BTW, when pairing up with my friend I have now been first picking more than 20 times in a row. I know that's theoretically possible but it feels incredibly weird. We are never, ever second picking.

 

[kirblar]

Tournament eligibility rules just got changed- you only need a month of residence in the country you're representing now w/ a valid visa that's at least 6 months old: https://t.co/3QBkXQzBOl

Wiz should be GTG now.

 

[Alur]

That must've been the big news Wiz was set to announce.

 

[kirblar]

Missed the Visa part on the first glanceover- that definitely stops flippity floppity stuff, but also makes it really easy to go back home if you want to.

 

[scoobs]

Watched McIntyre play Rexxar while duoing with Fan's girlfriend Rentaro. Observations:

1) That new leash range is huge. Looks way more fun now.
2) Mac's interactions with the bear/hero are what made a bunch of us get into him in the first place
3) After watching her play and listening to her talk about the game for a while now, Rentaro could probably replace just about any flex on the non-top 2 or 3 teams in NA right now. She's pretty good, would love to see that.

Also...scoobs, I knew I'd see you Skiba-ing up that blink 182 thread man.

Spoiler

Also saw that dude getting righteous for whatever reason, lol, but anyway...<3 Skiba

Haha yea I'm something of a blink 182 fanboy. Dude was coming at me with some pure nonsense. Hate arguing with people who have no idea what they're talking about, its much harder than arguing with a knowledgeable person.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Tournament eligibility rules just got changed- you only need a month of residence in the country you're representing now w/ a valid visa that's at least 6 months old: https://t.co/3QBkXQzBOl

Wiz should be GTG now.

Glaurung said Wiz was moving tomorrow, probably just inside Korea but maybe, just maybe.

Would like it if teams imported players to open up even more talent in the scene to form more teams. Also might be a good thing to attract sponsors if you can buy success.

 

[Celegus]

Wiz has finally been freed?!

 

[jaundicejuice]

If damage interrupted her ability to blink she would be basically useless and unable to blink. Tracer always takes damage going in unless she's chasing a tank, and even then a lot of them can hurt her. It would make her blink utterly utterly worthless in combat.

You can't remove the blink from her, it's key to the entire feel of playing Tracer - and to their credit, She feels *exactly* like Tracer from over watch, they did a superb job with her.

I also disagree with her recall ability being better than 90% of ultimates in the game. Sorry but that's just silly. If that's the case everyone should have been shouting about Tassadar for the last two years, because if he goes Racecar build he's much harder than Tracer to kill. Two invulns that massively heal you and let you move whilst invuln at high speeds, and one of those invulns triggers automatically? A get out of jail card that doesn't heal you is not better than most heroics - it doesn't win team fights and it doesn't win objectives.

I know I'm definitely on the defending Tracer band wagon, and it's clearly just because my experience fighting her has her not being anywhere near as OP as hits logs is currently showing for her. I know that means I'm getting. Lucky and she needs needs, but I think altering her fundamental kit in that way would basically destroy the character. I'm far more convinced she needs nerfs to the recall at 7 talent to start with and then see where it goes from there.

It's not about removing blink. Damage resetting the CD for 1 or 2 seconds would limit blink to an offensive/run-down use--which can still easily dodge a lot of telegraphed nukes--and making rewind, the ability with one charge and a longer cooldown the escape/survival tool. As it operates now, she has four escapes with three blink charges and rewind. One of which breaks her out of a lot of CC. She basically is wormhole Zeratul from level 1, only a hell of a lot more mobile. While this may be true to her fps incarnation, it's stupid as hell in a moba. She can be as impossible to lockdown as Li-Ming.

I don't get how they think Bolt of the Storm on Kael'Thas and Jaina is problematic for the game at 20--which it is--because it eliminates a core weakness both heroes have but then turn around and design two characters with it built into their kit as a baseline from level 1.

 

[Celegus]

So far so good little Misha.

 

[sadblob]

Played some buffed Rexxar, had a great time. Can't wait for the Tracer nerfs though.

 

[brian!]

rexxar is prob top two on my list of please never be overpowered

 

[Ketch]

It's not about removing blink. Damage resetting the CD for 1 or 2 seconds would limit blink to an offensive/run-down use--which can still easily dodge a lot of telegraphed nukes--and making rewind, the ability with one charge and a longer cooldown the escape/survival tool. As it operates now, she has four escapes with three blink charges and rewind. One of which breaks her out of a lot of CC. She basically is wormhole Zeratul from level 1, only a hell of a lot more mobile. While this may be true to her fps incarnation, it's stupid as hell in a moba. She can be as impossible to lockdown as Li-Ming.

I don't get how they think Bolt of the Storm on Kael'Thas and Jaina is problematic for the game at 20--which it is--because it eliminates a core weakness both heroes have but then turn around and design two characters with it built into their kit as a baseline from level 1.

That's crap though because tracer does not do nearly the amount of damage as the mages and they do it from much further range. Mobility isn't a core weakness for tracer it's like her only strength.


If you gave a Mage tracers mobility they'd do like 100k+ hero damage per game too easily. *cough* li Ming *cough*. Where's as now 40-50k is tracers average, 80k is like a godlike game for her.

 

[jaundicejuice]

You're right, there's nothing wrong with her mobility, everything is just fine.

 

[Maledict]

I'm not saying everything is fine, but the fact is mobility is the character. Putting a delay on blink if she takes damage would make her instantly the worse hero in the game - it would mean as soon as she went into a fight, she would die. She'd be a really, really bad version of Valla.

They should look at spacial echo at 7 to see if that's part of the problem, and then if she's still an issue after that they should lower her damage. Remove the overall mobility and you lose the entire character - if she's too mobile, then lower the damage so she has to stay in longer to do her job and take more risks.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I just take the extra blink charge anyway.

 

[Maledict]

My gut feeling is that spacial echo is a bit of a problem, but that removing it won't lower her down to balanced levels. I think ultimately they will have to look at her damage - they don't have many knobs to turn with Tracer compared to most heroes, so it's either mobility or damage. Damage is far easier to tune and keeps the theme of the character intact, whilst mobility opens a can of worms and potentially wrecks the feel of the character.

(They could increase the delay on blink charges a bit as well I guess?).

 

[scoobs]

And increase cooldown on her recall ability.

 

[brian!]

Lol what the hell coaches will be allowed on comms during summer regional games

Oh nm there's a caveat that it's up to blizzard? Dont fully understand anything going on in this situation

 

[Maledict]

And increase cooldown on her recall ability.

I don't think that would help to be honest. I'm already not taking the cool down reduction talent at 1 and not finding it an issue. Whilst obviously it will be worse with a bigger cool down, you generally only use it once per fight any ways. So unless you increase the cool down to 60 seconds or so, it's not going to dramatically impact on her.

(I don't think 60 seconds for a basic ability is ever viable really, particularly on a hero who has a lot less abilities than other heroes as it is).

 

[scoobs]

I don't think that would help to be honest. I'm already not taking the cool down reduction talent at 1 and not finding it an issue. Whilst obviously it will be worse with a bigger cool down, you generally only use it once per fight any ways. So unless you increase the cool down to 60 seconds or so, it's not going to dramatically impact on her.

(I don't think 60 seconds for a basic ability is ever viable really, particularly on a hero who has a lot less abilities than other heroes as it is).

I think it should be 45 seconds. It is obviously what is so broken about her, make her think about whether she wants to use her recall, instead of just using it off cooldown blinking into backlines all willy nilly

 

[Altairre]

So I don't play hots that often but usually I'm in a group when I play quickmatch and usually the other people in my group have a way higher mmr compared to mine. I haven't even played hero league and some of them are rank one, which means the teams we're up against are pretty decent for the most part. Just played a solo QM with Tracer and got put in a game with a bunch of people around account lvl 20. It was interesting, or I guess that's one way to put it. I felt kind of sorry for them. Their Nova probably had the worst game because she kept missing her initial snipe and after that she just can't get away from Tracer. Though I'm always happy to discourage Nova play. It was kind of annoying that I was pretty much the only one securing the objectives (map was Dragon Shire).

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Lol Tracer is now more banned than Ming Lee so if I main both they can never take her away from me.

 

[Altairre]

Did I miss a buff or why are people afraid of Kael again? Thought his rework was kind of meh.

 

[Alur]

That's what most everyone said initially. Turns out most everyone here, on reddit, and in the pro scene can't gauge hero power level from straight patch notes very well.