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[Alur]

She has 0 siege damage. It's an issue.

It's not 0, but it is low. I don't see that as an issue, though. That's actual balance like the hero should be. You trade copious damage for minimal siege and wave clear unless you take the 7 talent.

why would tempo pick up erho?

They want fast results but the talent isn't up for grans so they are just reaching for whatever they can get.

Those are two different situations and that's a highly cynical way to view TS. EVERY team wants fast results. Why is picking up Erho as "reaching for whatever they can get". Outside of Caff he is the best tank in the region and better than Caff on certain heroes. Just because he has some attitude issues doesn't mean it's reaching. That's the cornerstone of the moneyball approach here in our sports. Take a flier on a highly talented player with issues or an undervalued player who fills a specific need, and hope you can mitigate the risks for the benefits.

As for Arth, he was already a huge part of the Tempo drama that caused their blowup. I can't think why they'd want to deal with that again or why he would either.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Those are two different situations and that's a highly cynical way to view TS. EVERY team wants fast results. Why is picking up Erho as "reaching for whatever they can get". Outside of Caff he is the best tank in the region and better than Caff on certain heroes. Just because he has some attitude issues doesn't mean it's reaching. That's the cornerstone of the moneyball approach here in our sports. Take a flier on a highly talented player with issues or an undervalued player who fills a specific need, and hope you can mitigate the risks for the benefits.

As for Arth, he was already a huge part of the Tempo drama that caused their blowup. I can't think why they'd want to deal with that again or why he would either.

IIRC, Arth wasn't on the chopping block for Tempo but he and Zuna left of their own volition, so even if he was part of the drama he wasn't seen as the issue on the team.
Tempo isn't some unknown quantity that can just muck around the 4th place and built up from there, they were the top dogs for a long while and still are a big name in the scene. And I know shitting on him is all the rage right now but Arthelon is still a damn fine player, he's certainly no Fan but he's up there. I don't know if it's a scorned ex lover deal or whatever but people are really ganging up on him in an unsightly manner.
Heck milly went into every reddit thread concerning C9 calling him out for months.

 

[brickwalker0]

It used to be that you could get both utri and burning for waveclear, just burning isnt great for it (but if you need to be clearing zag creep or revealing invis?) <- actually in general utricate is better for both of those, and the bursty nature works more for him since it's rare that he can stick to heroes and get good value off of burning

Anub has a good amount of wiggle room and is pretty much new now so just see what works for you, just keep in mind that his proposed thing atm is "anti-mage"

cool, good tips, danke. yeah my first match had zero mages (yes, no chromie either, we went up against a full-made premade for whatever reason) and i was getting wrecked by auto attacks. i'd really like to try him in HL.

 

[Ketch]

Didn't Sylvanas have her own background? With the candles you could light / blow out?

Yea! She sure did, and that was before the Diablo thing.

Before her it was TLV, and then thrall and Jaina.

Did they have back grounds? I really don't think thrall and Jaina did, but I can't remember about Vikings.

Was sylvanas the first background?

 

[Alur]

IIRC, Arth wasn't on the chopping block for Tempo but he and Zuna left of their own volition, so even if he was part of the drama he wasn't seen as the issue on the team.
Tempo isn't some unknown quantity that can just muck around the 4th place and built up from there, they were the top dogs for a long while and still are a big name in the scene. And I know shitting on him is all the rage right now but Arthelon is still a damn fine player, he's certainly no Fan but he's up there. I don't know if it's a scorned ex lover deal or whatever but people are really ganging up on him in an unsightly manner.
Heck milly went into every reddit thread concerning C9 calling him out for months.

I don't think anyone was on the chopping block. Everyone was unhappy and he was part of making it that way. He's got a clear track record across multiple teams and games that proves that.

As for Milly or anyone calling him out, he deserves some calling out. And that's their team. When people don't feel like a player for Real Madrid is in form or giving it his all, they lambast the fuck out of him. Same here in the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, etc. For esports to become a real business, that's part of what will happen. It's a bloodbath in League with players on prominent teams who aren't performing. Arthelon was called a troll and someone who didn't listen by his former team (BRFC), was part of the Tempo cluster, bounced around League teams like a pinball and there is YouTube video of some drama there, and now has basically admitted he plays more League than HOTS, doesn't respect his competition, and feels he doesn't need to practice to stay on their level while helping C9 flounder against subpar teams in a way they have never before.

I haven't seen anything unsightly about the criticism of him. I haven't seen anyone calling him names or somehow discriminating against him. Most of the insults and complaints hurled at him came from his own comments on stream or behavior towards the game and it's community. I suppose you could argue it's everyone making a mountain out of a bunch of mole hills, but there's a reason why the saying goes "don't shit where you eat."

Was sylvanas the first background?

I think you're right. That was a p good one too.

 

[Ketch]

So what are the build to try on new Arthas ?

I did :

Eternal Hunger
Biting Cold
Icebound
Sindragosa
Frigid
Remorseless Winter
Anti magic shell

Felt good but need to do more tests.

So the ones I have liked were root cd at 1, mana at 4, icebound fort at 7, root trail at 13, root on aura at 16 and antimagic shell.

Gives you a massive root on a 5 second cd and then your aura also roots. And you can't really die... It's pretty good. Also like the lvl 1 quest talent with the death coil talents, lots of damage but you give up on so much control.


The root built seems pretty OP. It's like having a mega thrall root on a 5 second cd.

 

[Milly79]

Well Mr. E-Stalker, can you please identity any time --ASIDE from me asking Arth in his AmA when he was leaving c9 -- when I blasted him on Reddit, because as I recall, it never happened. It took place on GAF.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I don't think anyone was on the chopping block. Everyone was unhappy and he was part of making it that way. He's got a clear track record across multiple teams and games that proves that.

As for Milly or anyone calling him out, he deserves some calling out. And that's their team. When people don't feel like a player for Real Madrid is in form or giving it his all, they lambast the fuck out of him. Same here in the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, etc. For esports to become a real business, that's part of what will happen. It's a bloodbath in League with players on prominent teams who aren't performing. Arthelon was called a troll and someone who didn't listen by his former team (BRFC), was part of the Tempo cluster, bounced around League teams like a pinball and there is YouTube video of some drama there, and now has basically admitted he plays more League than HOTS, doesn't respect his competition, and feels he doesn't need to practice to stay on their level while helping C9 flounder against subpar teams in a way they have never before.

I haven't seen anything unsightly about the criticism of him. I haven't seen anyone calling him names or somehow discriminating against him. Most of the insults and complaints hurled at him came from his own comments on stream or behavior towards the game and it's community. I suppose you could argue it's everyone making a mountain out of a bunch of mole hills, but there's a reason why the saying goes "don't shit where you eat."

I remember distinctly Zoia saying in the announcement something along the lines that Zuna and Arth weren't the ones he planned on letting go but it's been awhile and I could be misremembering.

I don't follow arth, never watched his stream nor could tell you what role he plays (is he ranged carry ?) and while he might be responsible for being called out I still think it's pointless and to an extent unsightly. It's just rubbing salt into wounds at this point and chasing talent away is not what people should be doing at this point even if said people aren't dedicated to the game.

Spoiler

RIP spanish armada

People are still shitting on C9 after they had an almost dominant (I blame illidan) showing in the regionals, it did some good in making Dunktrain realise that they are disappointing fans in the process but it earns little more than belittling by people in the scene at this point.
Look at mYi, they squandered in every qualifier so far having gone to the final one just for the last event.

Well Mr. E-Stalker, can you please identity any time --ASIDE from me asking Arth in his AmA when he was leaving c9 -- when I blasted him on Reddit, because as I recall, it never happened. It took place on GAF.

sorry that I misrepresented you, it was really just twice. Dunno why I built that image in my head and yes I was so convinced I actually went and checked.

 

[Alur]

Dunno why I built that image in my head and yes I was so convinced I actually went and checked.

I don't follow arth, never watched his stream nor could tell you what role he plays (is he ranged carry ?) and while he might be responsible for being called out I still think it's pointless and to an extent unsightly.

You don't even know what role he plays yet you are constantly on the C9 defense force about their play over the past month? lol, that makes no sense.

Pointless? Maybe. To someone who doesn't care about the team I could see that. The barrage of criticism got them to make a change, though, didn't it? As for unsightly, maybe that's just a cultural difference or something, I dunno. It seems to be a pretty common thing with sports everywhere.. The behavior towards Arthelon and his statements/play/behavior is way tamer than the behavior I see in Europe for sport (football and rugby). European fans (specifically talking about England, Germany, Italy, and Spain here) are often more passionate than the fans here in America (to the good and bad).

 

[Milly79]

Where is all this shit talking C9 coming from? I hardly saw "shit talking" in the thread. It was mostly about how they could be playing better, etc.

And it's all good. You actually did all the work looking it up, because I was going to later.

 

[brickwalker0]

jesus that gif is hypnotic and so great.

so if Arthas is considered anti mage now, what are the anti mage talents? i only saw his level 20 talent which is absurdly cool/strong but he doesn't look to have much.

 

[Isaccard]

Hope they bring more Overwatch characters to the game

I could def see Lucio being a really strong support with movement speed buffs and healing

Maybe Hanzo and Mei Ling?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You don't even know what role he plays yet you are constantly on the C9 defense force about their play over the past month? lol, that makes no sense.

Pointless? Maybe. To someone who doesn't care about the team I could see that. The barrage of criticism got them to make a change, though, didn't it? As for unsightly, maybe that's just a cultural difference or something, I dunno. It seems to be a pretty common thing with sports everywhere.. The behavior towards Arthelon and his statements/play/behavior is way tamer than the behavior I see in Europe for sport (football and rugby). European fans (specifically talking about England, Germany, Italy, and Spain here) are often more passionate than the fans here in America (to the good and bad).

FTFY. You don't even know the depths of it, soccer fans are basically chimpanzees. Badly behaved chimpanzees, if chimpanzees were racist and drunks. Dunno why they throw bananas at black players instead of eating them.

And I doubt I've defended C9's play, I haven't even watched their qualifier matches so I wouldn't know what to defend. I was just always of the mind that qualifiers are bad references to judge teams by and I feel affirmed on that stance by recent results across regions.

I'd think that Cattlepillar was easy to poach without the backup of a sponsor is far more likely to be the cause for the change and possibly Caffeins desire to play other roles than the criticism C9 received. Dunk still hasn't particularly acknowledged their weaknesses and faults, a "huh, I didn't think we were seen like that" is the most we got, correct me if I'm wrong on that.

 

[Alur]

I think the concern everyone has with Lucio is that his healing is so similar to Brightwing. I would like to see him too, though.

For supports I feel like Zenyatta is the most different from what we have in general because of his damage (and look).

Mei would be awesome. DVa would sell like hotcakes. Would really like to see Winston or Reinhardt too.

 

[kirblar]

And I doubt I've defended C9's play, I haven't even watched their qualifier matches so I wouldn't know what to defend. I was just always of the mind that qualifiers are bad references to judge teams by and I feel affirmed on that stance by recent results across regions.

Your stance is awful and makes no sense.

This isn't them half-assing it and hiding strats in qualifiers, this is them failing THREE TIMES to qualify, losing to no-name teams repeatedly when they were previously the top dog.

The game just needs at least 4-5 more full healers right now. Get them in, move Ty/Tass to specialist.

 

[Alur]

Oh shit, fellas! If anyone is a fan of the plethora of HOTS podcasts and listens to Into the Nexus...

Kyle and Garrett are on Brawl with the Blues with McIntyre.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Your stance is awful and makes no sense.

This isn't them half-assing it and hiding strats in qualifiers, this is them failing THREE TIMES to qualify, losing to no-name teams repeatedly when they were previously the top dog.

The game just needs at least 4-5 more full healers right now. Get them in, move Ty/Tass to specialist.

How do you know it's not them half assing it or hiding strats, did they use Rexxar in any qualifier, that's preempting the qualifier was on the rexxar patch and that I genuinely don't know what they picked. Same with Tyrande.

I genuinely believe they give no fuck about the qualifiers. They even made a significant roster change with conflicting roles before their last chance qualifier.

 

[brian!]

Wouldnt be surprised if arth was leaving due to the zuna-like bashing he's been receiving recently, his team has publicly been pro-arth every step of the way

 

[kirblar]

How do you know it's not them half assing it or hiding strats, did they use Rexxar in any qualifier, that's preempting the qualifier was on the rexxar patch and that I genuinely don't know what they picked. Same with Tyrande.

I genuinely believe they give no fuck about the qualifiers. They even made a significant roster change with conflicting roles before their last chance qualifier.

Because they're playing bad in them. This isn't making suboptimal macro-level decisions, this is everything failing from top to bottom. Everyone has off days. When you have an "off" day every day? That's something else.

Wouldnt be surprised if arth was leaving due to the zuna-like bashing he's been receiving recently, his team has publicly been pro-arth every step of the way

You're always pro-X until they're out the door.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Wouldnt be surprised if arth was leaving due to the zuna-like bashing he's been receiving recently, his team has publicly been pro-arth every step of the way

People in the reddit thread mentioned Caff would like to play thrall and other melees instead of tank, dunno if there's anything to it. Would make sense then though to go for a known tank player if so.

Because they're playing bad in them. This isn't making suboptimal macro-level decisions, this is everything failing from top to bottom. Everyone has off days. When you have an "off" day every day? That's something else.

Comparatively to Dreamhack did they play worse, did they try something different, I think I saw an Illidan match that might well explain why they are not playing illidan, if they didn't try something different why would they play worse individually in the sense of falling apart, not synergizing?

 

[brian!]

Yeah i get that, a good amount of it comes off as real distaste for what's going on though esp. from caff
@kirb

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Just seen the new video about the dwarf lady time manipulator. Dragon ult?
super suppport hero?

 

[Alur]

No dragon ult. She's a gnome, and she's a ranged assassin. Another mage, basically.

 

[kirblar]

Comparatively to Dreamhack did they play worse, did they try something different, I think I saw an Illidan match that might well explain why they are not playing illidan, if they didn't try something different why would they play worse individually in the sense of falling apart, not synergizing?

They were playing worse. Arthelon's lack of practice kept getting exposed (he doesn't play the game, so he doesn't expand his hero pool) and the only games they were winning were their troll drafts where Dunk was DPSing and IDream was tanking.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

No dragon ult. She's a gnome, and she's a ranged assassin. Another mage, basically.

Ah, okay. Thanks Alur

 

[Alur]

Ah, okay. Thanks Alur

No problem. She's fun, definitely very skill shot dependent. Huge, huge range though. Like Sgt. Hammer range or better.

 

[Cerato]

jesus that gif is hypnotic and so great.

so if Arthas is considered anti mage now, what are the anti mage talents? i only saw his level 20 talent which is absurdly cool/strong but he doesn't look to have much.

I think you confused Arthas for Anub. Arthas has a couple talents, but they both have to be activated, and one is a level 20 that comes with a pretty high opportunity cost.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They were playing worse. Arthelon's lack of practice kept getting exposed (he doesn't play the game, so he doesn't expand his hero pool) and the only games they were winning were their troll drafts where Dunk was DPSing and IDream was tanking.

So they can play better as shown and have struggled similarly in the past at online events so why should that be indicative of their coming performance at burbank.

Would be hilarious though if they don't qualify.

 

[kirblar]

So they can play better as shown and have struggled similarly in the past at online events so why should that be indicative of their coming performance at burbank.

Would be hilarious though if they don't qualify.

As you said, they're not guaranteed to get there.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

As you said, they're not guaranteed to get there.

Like honestly what's the actual competition

 

[brian!]

Regardless of any sandbagging, def from the point of view of a team owner id be salty that they dont just qualify if they could, would be wary as fuk if my team was all "dont worry about it, it's in the bag"

 

[kirblar]

Like honestly what's the actual competition

We said that about the last two Qualifiers as well....

They're def not sandbagging.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

We said that about the last two Qualifiers as well....

They're def not sandbagging.

TNC and AA both had actual results before, didn't TNC beat C9 once already.

 

[Alur]

This is two sets of qualifiers they've underperformed in, not just one. They qualified in the last one for Austin, and now are down to the last one for Burbank.

Like brian said, if you're the top team then you should act like it. If I was Jack I'd be like WTF, practice you lazy fucks. And if you're as good as you think you are, even when sandbagging you should be able to beat everyone outside of Naventic.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/heroes/2...Global_Championship/Spring/Europe/Qualifier_4
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/heroes/2...obal_Championship/Summer/Europe/1/Qualifier_3
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/heroes/DreamHack/2016/Tours/Qualifier/3

mYi has been in the final qualifier for every single regional yet it's a running gag here not a sign of the apocalypse. To be fair the first time it was a "sign" of them having gotten lucky at Katowice.

 

[jaundicejuice]

She has 0 siege damage. It's an issue.

Not if you talent into Dragon's Breathe with Deep Breathing, Enveloping Assault and Mobius Loop. You kind of have to look at the map, its objective and your team comp at match start to decide if you'll build into that. It doesn't really detract from her teamfight/hero damage and help give her respectable siege damage output.

 

[Alur]

mYi has been in the final qualifier for every single regional yet it's a running gag here not a sign of the apocalypse. To be fair the first time it was a "sign" of them having gotten lucky at Katowice.

You're the only one I see anywhere thinking it's a running gag. Everyone who follows the team and the scene closely seems concerned but you. As Faye intimated in her comments breaking the news, pretty much all the pros saw this coming. These results are not excused by you being like "oh it's just a qualifier lulz" but please, do continue to die on that hill on the odd chance that they pull off some miracle and you can come in and snark some "I told ya so".

We aren't saying this shit because we get glee out of it. We are saying it because we like the team and they have fucking sucked. Bad drafts. Bad shotcalling. Bad positioning. Bad timing. Everything about it has been so completely subpar they look like fucking 2Arc out there. This from the one Western team that was supposed to challenge the Asian esports gods. Now they aren't even the best Western team, and arguably maybe not even the best in their region...to a team that got rocked by the Chinese and Korean teams even harder than them but appear to have learned their fucking lesson about what it takes.

No matter their showings, I do not buy the bill of goods sold by people saying that mYi deserves respect now. Definitely not respect on the level of Dig or C9. EU teams have been notoriously up and down from the start outside of Dig. They are a team that's sliding through in a region that can't get out of it's own way. The one team that had it's shit together just threw that out the window for a longer term objective, so I don't think their success or lack thereof in qualifiers has any parallel with C9.

 

[kirblar]

Not if you talent into Dragon's Breathe with Deep Breathing, Enveloping Assault and Mobius Loop. You kind of have to look at the map, its objective and your team comp at match start to decide if you'll build into that. It doesn't really detract from her teamfight/hero damage and help give her respectable siege damage output.

It definitely helps get her lane clear to a respectable level, but she still can't really do anything to a building but auto.

 

[Alur]

It definitely helps get her lane clear to a respectable level, but she still can't really do anything to a building but auto.

Why is that a problem, though? Isn't that part of why KT and Li-Ming are so bonkers? The fact that they can siege as well as a specialist?

I mean I get where you're coming from on the winrate perspective, but her damage and range more than makes up for that flaw IMO. She wrecks people who are hanging around said fort or keep.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You're the only one I see anywhere thinking it's a running gag. Everyone who follows the team and the scene closely seems concerned but you. As Faye intimated in her comments breaking the news, pretty much all the pros saw this coming. These results are not excused by you being like "oh it's just a qualifier lulz" but please, do continue to die on that hill on the odd chance that they pull off some miracle and you can come in and snark some "I told ya so".

We aren't saying this shit because we get glee out of it. We are saying it because we like the team and they have fucking sucked. Bad drafts. Bad shotcalling. Bad positioning. Bad timing. Everything about it has been so completely subpar they look like fucking 2Arc out there.

No matter their showings, I do not buy the bill of goods sold by people saying that mYi deserves respect now. Definitely not respect on the level of Dig or C9. EU teams have been notoriously up and down from the start outside of Dig. They are a team that's sliding through in a region that can't get out of it's own way. The one team that had it's shit together just threw that out the window for a longer term objective, so I don't think their success or lack thereof in qualifiers has any parallel with C9.

In regards to C9 or mYi being a running gag, cause for mYi, their players, khaldor, eu pros on twitter, kaelaris IIRC all made jokes about it. The sincerity is arguable.

in a direct competition I wouldn't put them anywhere close either, but in their respective regions they are in roughly the same spot. I was really annoyed at Tours for so many teams seemingly not even trying/preparing against mYi. I wanted another team to beat them but none did and even then they do deserve respect now. Even at Seoul they didn't perform worse than NVT in at least equally tough groups and they placed 2nd or better in 3 regionals by now.

I wouldn't deny NVT respect

Spoiler

, I probably did multiple times,

for C9 seemingly beating themselves at Austin and going by the past weeks C9 already pulled a miracle by placing 2nd after a series that was heavily skewed in their favour.

 

[jaundicejuice]

It definitely helps get her lane clear to a respectable level, but she still can't really do anything to a building but auto.

I don't think it's problematic to have assassins who do serious damage to heroes but don't have easy wave clear or serious siege damage output on structures. I think it's problematic to have assassins that can do all of those things with great ease.

I think Chromie is well designed. She can hit heroes really hard but both of her nukes are skillshots that can be difficult to land even with the range and the lack of telegraphs. She's squishy, has zero mobility and if you catch her out with any number of heroes, she's dead. She's got a fair number of hard counters--Tracer, Illidan, Greymane, Zeratul--but a lot of heroes can kill her if they catch her alone or far enough away from safe ground.

I still think it's frustrating to have all of this heroes with ridiculous range--it's like they completely forgot about how oppressive Flamethrower/Ignite Kael used to be--but Chromie feels like she's the high skill cap ranged nuker they were aiming to create when they made Li-Ming.

 

[Alur]

I just want them to live up to their potential. And no matter how you wanna slice it, they haven't been doing that since Korea.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I just want them to live up to their potential. And no matter how you wanna slice it, they haven't been doing that since Korea.

I'd argue they haven't since Blizzcon. They haven't seeped as much confidence since then once and were bodied by a team in Korea they glorifully cheesed at Blizzcon.

 

[Alur]

That's true too. They did have the losing stretch post Blizzcon too.

Honestly, as I've argued before, you could easily make the case that C9 took advantage of one hot tournament and the competition falling apart/failing to make it and have rode on the coattails of that since. What they are going through now might not be such an outlier, it might just be a return to the same thing we saw most of last year.

 

[Ken]

Is there any way to change what servers I get thrown into? I keep getting put into Brazil servers but my connection is better to West Coast NA. :/

i looked at the region thing but it's just Americas.

 

[Alur]

Ken, go into options in-game and then to Language and Region. Under Region, you can pick a server you wish it to prioritize for you. Just choose Western United States (it tells you your average ping at the moment, too, for each server).

 

[kirblar]

And Jake's back to talking about catering again.

 

[Milly79]

Oh my god. Zoia being a whiny bitch on Twitter. WHY CANT YOU BE HAPPY FOR THE TWO PLAYERS WHY DOES EVERYONE SHIT ON ARTH?

Like really? Lol. And of course everyone is sucking dick back. THE COMMUNITY SUX ARTH RULES

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

well reddit doesn't seem to be very liked by pro players.

 

[Alur]

LOL, that's the part I don't get. I haven't seen anything really vile in those threads. At least nothing that is being upvoted. It's mostly just parroting his badly worded/short sighted statement about 1 hour of practice, and how he plays League a lot instead of HOTS.

Zoia saying "this scene can be fucking disgusting" plus "why all the fucking hate" when that's his whole gimmick would be like the Joker saying why all the fucking chaos.