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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
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Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Dignitas is doing a AMA on reddit atm asked Bakery's opinion on supports
Bakery said:
That's pretty dumb argument though, like yes hots is not like other games, but the reason so much healing is bad for the game carries over. Gold is not a resource but the healing still negates advantage just as much, it's just comes in form of XP, time on the map, objectives etc.
I don't know, healing is just indicative of what I feel is the huge issues with the overarching design philosophy.... Like the game is confused between being a more casual oriented mechanically forgiving moba and trying to appeal to its more hardcore fans, and I don't think they're getting that balance right. Like, the healing makes sense with like half the cast of heroes. When you have muradin battling arthas with valla, raynor, thrall backing them up on either side it makes sense to have an uther heal and divine shield, the game is more about strategy and team work to earn advantages. But even just putting a more mechanically difficult hero as Illidan in the mix (not to mention greymane, li Ming, tracer, which seems like the direction we're heading) and you can instantly see op big instant heals are required at high levels of play, and then The win/loss starts to be determined by what team got the best big heal off, which extrapolated becomes the win/loss is determined by who drafts the best big heal, which would be fine except there's either not enough of those in the game... Or way too many, depending on your point of view. and also you have what bakery said those heroes are boring (opinionated I know), but that's because they're old school hots heroes, most of the old school hots heroes are boring, because they come from that earlier design philosophy of a more forgiving moba.
I don't know. I'm rambling, but I think bakery answered the question good enough, but misses the the bigger picture in his explanation.
Edit: His bullet points are dumb, healers in hots absolutely carry assassins throughout the entire game, and maybe there's no gold but there's plenty of advantage that big heals protect.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It's hard to take recently heroes into account in regards to a new philosophy for we didn't yet get a support adhering to those.
With Medivh we finally got a specialist pseudo support but he'll just land in the hand of flex players competitively.
With Medivh we finally got a specialist pseudo support but he'll just land in the hand of flex players competitively.
Nah, its a completely different type of carry. he is right here I feel.
In Dota, a hard carry simply wont work without a support. They are so weak early on, and yet require So much resources to power up, that without a support in lane helping them they are worse than a normal character.
In HotS, almost all assassins are just fine without a support in that respect. Obvious,y the support brings a lot of power and depth to the team (that's why we use them), but they aren't necessary in the same way (excluding greymane and illidan I feel, both of whom really struggle in zero support games).
Medivh is just Tass/Tyrandes new brother.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
So I finally completed my 20 placement matches for Hero League preseason, and I earned myself a rank 21. Which, from what I've read, is only 1 rank away from earning the elemental wolf mount on Tuesday. Frack'n A. 
I wonder if I can manage to get myself to rank 20 in two days.....
I wonder if I can manage to get myself to rank 20 in two days.....
jaundicejuice
Member
But will dodge the problems they had by not being categorised as a support.
Strongly suspect the issue w their current classification is because they can't have just 7 heroes in that pool w the qm rule.
To be fair, Tyrande is more than capable of being a solo support. I'm playing her a lot right now, as she's easily the most fun support I find. Even if every match seems to be heart-attack inducing, in the right hands she can definitely cover the support role fully.
(whilst also bringing that oh so beautiful stun and mark).
I do tend to agree with Bakery. You're not going to remove the healing from the game, but you can make the healers do a lot more than heal.
(whilst also bringing that oh so beautiful stun and mark).
I do tend to agree with Bakery. You're not going to remove the healing from the game, but you can make the healers do a lot more than heal.
You're right it is a completely different type of carry, but supports in hots still enable the assassins. A team without a support doesn't work at all in high level hots, it's not an argument. Assassins can be fine in lane because they don't have to last hit and can't be ganked nearly as easily, but in any team fight supports in hots 100% enable assassins to do what they need to. They are 100% necessary, because you're extremely limited on which heroes can fill what roles, much more so then Dota, where you can have like a Sven, morphing, or alch or Naga support, because you're pretty much guaranteed that the other team doesn't have massive burst healing on a 12 sec cd.
Saying a hard carry doesn't work in Dota without a support is misleading, it's not that formulaic. A hard carry without support in Dota is just super greedy, doesn't mean it can't be done (a team of 5 hard carries could work in Dota if you played it right, where as in hots you could never do that). Like even just saying that you need supports in Dota like you need supports in hots is a bad comparison because support is not a hero archetype in Dota. In hots we get a support hero, and you play them as a support, in Dota they get a hero and people figure how to play them in whatever role They need to make their strategy work.
Again, it goes back to some questionable design issues. Like why are we just now getting a support hero being labeled as specialist? To me, that in itself is blizz admitting the hero classification system is bad, but for some reason they refuse to fix it.
Well partly that's because they believe the classification system really helps new players I presume - which I can sort of understand as going into DOTA fresh is very tricky and confusing.
I'd say the issue really is that support in HotS doesn't mean support - it means healer. Medivh is absolutely not a healer, but he is a support. Whether the game can work having healers and supports is an interesting question - I love the idea of support classes in general, but if you take one of those plus a healer, that doesn't leave you that many slots for damage and tank.
I'd say the issue really is that support in HotS doesn't mean support - it means healer. Medivh is absolutely not a healer, but he is a support. Whether the game can work having healers and supports is an interesting question - I love the idea of support classes in general, but if you take one of those plus a healer, that doesn't leave you that many slots for damage and tank.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Dustin was remorseful recently on hero roles inan interview but it's not something they think can be undone now.
I agree completely, and I think that's where bakery missed the point. He says the game doesn't need less healing and I think he's totally wrong. Medivh is a prime example. Game would be a lot more interesting if all of the supports were like medivh, Tass, tyrande, instead being forced down the rehgar/uther picks because they're healing is so good. Rehgar was way more interesting for those two weeks when he wasn't just about casting heal spells on CD.
it doesn't even need to be undone, just fix it. Like there's so many easy reclassifications they could do right now, and if they don't like it just fix it. Make Sonya a melee assassin, rexxar a specialist, Separate roles for support/healer. Saying "we don't like the way this is but there's nothing we can do about" is so weak.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
That wouldn't fix it. Have you seen how hots logs trying to fix it looks, even reclassifying them would barely make a difference and only confuse ppl. Tyrande and Tass can heal when Medivh can't for instance.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Tassadars preshielding is technically also healing and goes online by level 7. Medivh heals come 16.
Yep, they would need to remove the pre-shielding talent from Tassadar to make him a specialist. That was the biggest boost he got with his shields, and it does allow him to solo heal in a way Medivh can't (still hard as hell compared to Tyrande, except maybe on Tomb of the Spider Queen), but it does cross the line between support and healer.
What in the actual fuck? The globals start tomorrow? Why is it starting on a Monday?
Here I was all weekend like "Damn I thought there was a tournament soon"...and it turns out it starts on the first day of the work week. I don't get it. Not sure they could've done much about it, but really man. C'mon.
Here I was all weekend like "Damn I thought there was a tournament soon"...and it turns out it starts on the first day of the work week. I don't get it. Not sure they could've done much about it, but really man. C'mon.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
They're doing the group stage that culls the weed when nobody's gonna watch anyway. We'll maybe get 2 interesting matches there and that's when NA / EU clashes with CN / KR
like that's just one suggestion on something they COULD do. I'm not a designer, they've got a team of people over there and they know it's messed up, I'm saying that instead of throwing their hands up in the air and going oh well I guess we just call em specialists now they should actually fix the classification/QM issues. The fact that they don't even make the easiest of changes (sonya to melee assassin for example), and instead completely rebalance two heroes to reinforce the crap system has me baffled.
Anyway you slice it, the classifications (mostly because of healers) have been an issue with the games design since the very beginning. Making medivh a specialist is like the first thing they've done on what I think is the right path to fixing it.
Interesting, so the #1 seeds get a bye through the first group stage. I thought they all played last time from the start? I guess I just don't remember it properly.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Same deal just on the same day last time.
thekillermuffin
Member
Just had a game with a friend where he picked Tassadar to do a double support build. Two allies proceeded to brutally harass him for the entire game. It was incredibly disheartening to see unfold.
While the community can be great, those games here and there with the abusive chat really take a chunk out of you.
While the community can be great, those games here and there with the abusive chat really take a chunk out of you.
Other than Abathur/Gazlowe/Murky shaming, don't think there's anything more apt to tilt players than what supports get picked.
If you have the time then yes, definitely. In your first ~50ish games in HL you get massive point gains when you win yet the same amount as always when you lose...so basically every win affords you 2 or 3 losses instead of being a 1-for-1 affair. You don't even have to maintain .500 average winrate for that first bit to move up. One win will put you over the hump most likely.
If you have the time then yes, definitely. In your first ~50ish games in HL you get massive point gains when you win yet the same amount as always when you lose...so basically every win affords you 2 or 3 losses instead of being a 1-for-1 affair. You don't even have to maintain .500 average winrate for that first bit to move up. One win will put you over the hump most likely.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Next teaser
jaundicejuice
Member
It looks like Kael'Thas (in that awful Steampunk cosmetic), Li-Ming, Greymane in worgen form, Illidan and Tracer watching Mekkatorque dance as he ults Diablo, Tyrande, Murky, Chromie and Xul.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Isn't the one jumping a viking, the one with the slingshot?
It's a Pajama Viking.
Nothing new there, just hype for regionals. Gamescom's where the 3rd/4th on deck are probably getting unveiled, so we could see the next 1 or 2 announced this week at the event. (Or at E3 if Blizz is there)
4Chan leak had 2 SC maps up next: https://boards.fireden.net/vg/search/username/Axolotl/
Nothing new there, just hype for regionals. Gamescom's where the 3rd/4th on deck are probably getting unveiled, so we could see the next 1 or 2 announced this week at the event. (Or at E3 if Blizz is there)
4Chan leak had 2 SC maps up next: https://boards.fireden.net/vg/search/username/Axolotl/
jaundicejuice
Member
Now I am sad.
Grubby's Medivh highlight video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDAKuNLqqk&feature=youtu.be
There is no way Raven Form's cast time stays as low as it is.
There is no way Raven Form's cast time stays as low as it is.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I wouldn't be surprised if with some more dedication grubby could make it as a pro.
He obviously has the mechanical skills.
It would be a net loss though both for him and for HoTS considering he's one of a few premier streamers.
He obviously has the mechanical skills.
It would be a net loss though both for him and for HoTS considering he's one of a few premier streamers.
He said that is the main reason he hasn't done it in a stream of his I watched in the past. I am sure he gets the competitive itch. Hopefully he can do it some day and not feel conflicted about it.
http://www.pcgamingshow.com/
doesn't look like it. Kinda weird, but I guess Blizzard doesn't have to do shows like that and can get their own buzz. I guess.
It's the next to last night of the old guard.
Goodbye rank 1.
It was nice to pretend I was on the same level as the pros despite having a 1000 MMR gap, and have that nifty little 1 on my portraits. Please Blizz gods let me be able to at least get back into low Diamond after the revamp. In Browder's name we pray amen.
Goodbye rank 1.
It was nice to pretend I was on the same level as the pros despite having a 1000 MMR gap, and have that nifty little 1 on my portraits. Please Blizz gods let me be able to at least get back into low Diamond after the revamp. In Browder's name we pray amen.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
To retire being dropped or poached?
Agreed. It was way more fun than anticipated, even considering the huge variety of skill levels we played with. Met a bunch of cool people through that.
That's a good question. I think he's highly underrated. Maybe he's gonna follow the Udall/Tomster/bigempct model and try and go big time too.
EDIT: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sopkul apparently his team didn't think he was underrated. They thought he sucked, and so he left.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Title screen
Renos draft looks so much better. MVP going all in on KT.
Edit: Man that ETC got antsy and cost Reno the fight, they would have had a dead Zera if he stayed put.
Falstaff taking Gathering Storm on this Map was really dumb. He splitpushes all day long
What on earth are the Euro stylists doing to Jhow's head w the asymetrical hair? :-/
Edit: Man that ETC got antsy and cost Reno the fight, they would have had a dead Zera if he stayed put.
Falstaff taking Gathering Storm on this Map was really dumb. He splitpushes all day long
What on earth are the Euro stylists doing to Jhow's head w the asymetrical hair? :-/
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
probably but can check out the vods and they usually rebroadcast them
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
GFE got there an hour before their match due to travel issues and went
against Big Gods
BKB is looking for a team, glad he'll stick around. He's predictable but also makes some of the most flashy plays in EU
2:1
BKB is looking for a team, glad he'll stick around. He's predictable but also makes some of the most flashy plays in EU
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Blizzard is on fire
Gonna be included in the launcher as well.
Gonna be included in the launcher as well.
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