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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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BreezyLimbo
Banned
I remember when Jugs was amazing against burst teams because it healed for so much it negated the burst. Funny thing is Jugs wasn't nerfed, just the time to kill has dropped insanely over the last two years.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Remember when teams banned all supports to put Dread on Lili but didn't pick proper interrupts? Dread demolished them and hated every minute of it.
Also remember when Lunara and Greymane were shit?
Also remember when Lunara and Greymane were shit?
Greymane was never shit, it just took longer to figure him out than usual and NA was really slow to the party... ;-)
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Finally bought abathur, since I don't think they will ever reduce the price on him
He is a lot of fun
I love the monstrosity ult and knowing 90% of the characters.
He is a lot of fun
I love the monstrosity ult and knowing 90% of the characters.
scoobs
Member
Lunara was woefully undertuned, but ya, Greymane has always been extremely good. People that were calling him shit at release were just wrong.
jaundicejuice
Member
The only context in which Greymane has ever been shit was solo queue and uncoordinated teams. So predominantly Quick Match and bad Hero League teams. He's always been strong, just lacked sustain and needed a baby-sitter. Basically he's sort of a Dota carry. The speed at which he can delete heroes now is just obscene.
Team. League.
You can't expect everyone to search random channels for 5 teammates every time they want to play, though. I know you've avoided anything but AI mainly for a long time out of frustration, but I think most people would've just quit if that was the only option they could stomach.
The rest of the modes are no better nor worse than they ever were. You lose 5 in a row one day, you win 4 in a row the next day. MOBAlyfe. The game makes you work harder than you should to like it because you can't strongly affect the outcome, but that's also the reason many of us got into this particular MOBA...because it wasn't like the rest.
The rest of the modes are no better nor worse than they ever were. You lose 5 in a row one day, you win 4 in a row the next day. MOBAlyfe. The game makes you work harder than you should to like it because you can't strongly affect the outcome, but that's also the reason many of us got into this particular MOBA...because it wasn't like the rest.
The 5v5 TL is the most fun I've had with the game tho. I actively enjoy playing it and can't go back to the cold dark emptiness of HL after experiencing heaven. I just haven't had time to devote to it the past few weeks cause I've been miserable up until about a week ago.
Maybe if HL fixed its shit, but I'm of the opinion now that HL is fundamentally flawed in this game because of the game design.
Maybe if HL fixed its shit, but I'm of the opinion now that HL is fundamentally flawed in this game because of the game design.
jaundicejuice
Member
The more I play HotS, the more the lack of items seems like a negative aspect of its design. The talent system often isn't enough to compensate for your team composition and who you're matched up against. A non-healing support can't buy healing/support items to supplement their kit. You can't buy an item to mitigate magic damage or prevent yourself from being stunned. It's so limiting, it limits hero choices, it even limits hero design (every support has to have a heal or cleanse to be viable). They haven't been able to design talents well enough to compensate for the lack of items.
Overall the game hasn't been fun to play for a while. I mean I got into it because I thought a more casual game would be a more enjoyable experience but the more I play HotS, the more I want to install Dota 2 again.
Overall the game hasn't been fun to play for a while. I mean I got into it because I thought a more casual game would be a more enjoyable experience but the more I play HotS, the more I want to install Dota 2 again.
Playing this game without a draft is a complete pot shoot. It's fundamentally not possible to make consistently fun games with blind picks in a more without drafts, you are absolutely correct there.
Once drafting is involved though I think it's fine - if your team doesn't work it's because of bad choices by the team. That happens just as much in dota - mid or feed is a good meme because it's so painfully true. I do agree that we need more supports though, and looking forward to the work they are doing on them.
It has it's drawbacks certainly, but to me the issues many people have with the game stem from the simple nature of these kinds of games themselves. The toxicity, the stubbornness, the variance. It's just part of it and it gets to people, me included. Some people it bothers more than others.
The other part is just simple bias. We think we are better than we are and that causes even more frustration. Some people are just not good at the game. Most, really, are not even above average at the game and above average in this game is probably somewhere in the high Gold/low Platinum range. That's not a high bar. It doesn't matter how well you know the drafts or watch pro HOTS or understand soaking and rotations and timing, if you can't put it into action you're gonna stay in a shit tier of MMR with players who don't understand those things, compounding your frustration.
There's nothing Blizzard can really do to fix that. Most of the players who play aren't interested in getting in depth with strategy and stuff, they just wanna play Arthas or Nova or whoever for their daily quest and peace out. That's the best and worst part of the game. They succeeded in making a moba casual enough for people to literally pick it up and play and then drop it when they please...unfortunately, those who got more into it are just kind of out of luck unless they are above a certain threshold in MMR.
The other part is just simple bias. We think we are better than we are and that causes even more frustration. Some people are just not good at the game. Most, really, are not even above average at the game and above average in this game is probably somewhere in the high Gold/low Platinum range. That's not a high bar. It doesn't matter how well you know the drafts or watch pro HOTS or understand soaking and rotations and timing, if you can't put it into action you're gonna stay in a shit tier of MMR with players who don't understand those things, compounding your frustration.
There's nothing Blizzard can really do to fix that. Most of the players who play aren't interested in getting in depth with strategy and stuff, they just wanna play Arthas or Nova or whoever for their daily quest and peace out. That's the best and worst part of the game. They succeeded in making a moba casual enough for people to literally pick it up and play and then drop it when they please...unfortunately, those who got more into it are just kind of out of luck unless they are above a certain threshold in MMR.
Yeah i gotta echo the part about depth not really being tapped into, somehow the proper way of playing the game is relegated to very miniscule percentage of the population (many factors for this including lack of interesting streamers playing to teach/to win). Like im not talking about geniousz play here, more like can we please not have everyone running to the tribute when it spawns
Talents will always have to be incremental at some levels and more strong at others because it is a simultaneous 5-person power spike, cant really think of them as items even tho they mimic them in many ways
agree that talents are poor at compensating for bad synergy, like it's rare to fill holes in this way, team comp is pretty heavily weighed in this game
Talents will always have to be incremental at some levels and more strong at others because it is a simultaneous 5-person power spike, cant really think of them as items even tho they mimic them in many ways
agree that talents are poor at compensating for bad synergy, like it's rare to fill holes in this way, team comp is pretty heavily weighed in this game
jaundicejuice
Member
The toxicity happens in every multiplayer game that involves matchmaking. It happens in MOBAs, it happens in MMOs, in shooters. It happened in WoW LFD/LFR, Left 4 Dead, Dota, Overwatch, etc. It happens in any game where you're thrown together with strangers you will never see again. There's no substantive consequence to being a total shitheel and seemingly no reward for not being a complete ass. You can be a total shit and still win a match. You can actively throw the game under the bus and there's seemingly no consequence. They can get reported but what does that actually achieve? This is a problem in every MOBA. And you're right, there's nothing Blizzard, Valve or Riot can really do about it, it's the people that play these games.
I've put more time than I care to consider in playing MOBAs. The one universal truth I've sort of seen is two teams enter a match, one is going to win, one is going to lose and most of those losses are decided when someone gives up and decides the match is over before it's actually done. They mentally check out or, worse, actively work to cause the loss to happen.
I started playing HotS because I liked the quicker match times, speed at which teamfights began and the lack of things like gold, last hitting, items and individual experience seemed like an interesting take on the genre. But the more I play, the less convinced I am about some of those things. And being a more casual game hasn't lent itself to being a more enjoyable experience, it's just as toxic as any other MOBA only lacking some of the tools and features that other MOBAs have by virtue of being more mature products.
I've put more time than I care to consider in playing MOBAs. The one universal truth I've sort of seen is two teams enter a match, one is going to win, one is going to lose and most of those losses are decided when someone gives up and decides the match is over before it's actually done. They mentally check out or, worse, actively work to cause the loss to happen.
I started playing HotS because I liked the quicker match times, speed at which teamfights began and the lack of things like gold, last hitting, items and individual experience seemed like an interesting take on the genre. But the more I play, the less convinced I am about some of those things. And being a more casual game hasn't lent itself to being a more enjoyable experience, it's just as toxic as any other MOBA only lacking some of the tools and features that other MOBAs have by virtue of being more mature products.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I enjoy solo queue more than teamplay.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Some odd games today in unranked. 1st game of the night me and a Greymane and the rest of the team had vastly different calls. We'd def bot from a boss they'd def boss attempt on top. If we'd defended both as 5 we'd probably not even lost a keep instead of losing the game outright. Greymane even voiced his intent in chat and I agreed with his call while the others didn't even ping and walked straight top to die.
The 2nd game the enemy team tried a protect the hammer 4 man push while our team did a 2-2-1 on cursed hollow, me (Rehgar) and Muradin defended mid against their 4. In the time it took them to get our keep to half health our sylvanas got a keep on her own. Then they'd boss pre lvl 10 and not even stop when I discovered their attempt. We wiped them and stole their boss 3v5. We just assumed they were trolling from that point on.
Also Entombing feels as great as always.
Edit: Highlight of the day "We have no damage". Looks at comp. Zag, Thrall, Li Ming. Sure bud we're losing because we have no damage...
Tempest got 3:0d by L5 btw
The 2nd game the enemy team tried a protect the hammer 4 man push while our team did a 2-2-1 on cursed hollow, me (Rehgar) and Muradin defended mid against their 4. In the time it took them to get our keep to half health our sylvanas got a keep on her own. Then they'd boss pre lvl 10 and not even stop when I discovered their attempt. We wiped them and stole their boss 3v5. We just assumed they were trolling from that point on.
Also Entombing feels as great as always.
Edit: Highlight of the day "We have no damage". Looks at comp. Zag, Thrall, Li Ming. Sure bud we're losing because we have no damage...
Tempest got 3:0d by L5 btw
Tempo Storm'd
Blizz dev Kent-Erik Hagman talking about how future Overwatch heroes might make their way into HOTS.
Blizz dev Kent-Erik Hagman talking about how future Overwatch heroes might make their way into HOTS.
He's a monster if you have some peel or if the other teams don't have dive. He isn't as bad as some other heroes in release, but he could use a couple tweaks maybe.
Kaeyoh, Dunktrain, and Srey all said they thought he was viable as is. Damage ramps at 16, Horrify is a "tier one heroic", and he functions as a bruiser/brawler version of the mages we already have.
I tend to agree. Perhaps his numbers could be a bit better, or less back loaded, but he seems pretty underrated to me. He suffers due to everything (still) being about burst, but that's not necessarily an indictment of him as it is Blizzard's inability to steer us out of this KT and friends trap we've been in for a solid year.
I tend to agree. Perhaps his numbers could be a bit better, or less back loaded, but he seems pretty underrated to me. He suffers due to everything (still) being about burst, but that's not necessarily an indictment of him as it is Blizzard's inability to steer us out of this KT and friends trap we've been in for a solid year.
It's funny how bad even the pros are at evaluating new heroes. When he was on test everyone was convinced he was OP, and I remember Dunk saying they would need to tune his numbers down. However his win rate doesn't lie - for a ranged assassin with significant self sustain to have such low numbers something is definitely wrong.
And yet Nazeepo is the second highest win rate hero in the game. Similarly, chromie is still near the bottom of the pack despite having the highest burst in the game with her combo.
Not saying I disagree, only that it's not as simple as "burst meta".
BTw, what talents are people picking at 16 to increase his damage? All 3 look okay and unsure which is the best to go for.
I don't think Nazeebo's sustain can be considered in comparison to any other sustain damage dealer. He has the ability to produce ridiculous burst, and at worst he can chip the same way as Lunara. He's in a bit of a different class from everyone provided you can land his skills and I think that's a big part of his winrate sustainability. He's not great at much of anything, but he's pretty good at several things.
IMO what we see with Chromie and Gul'dan is two mage-types who are severely outclassed in some form or fashion by their predecessors, hence lower pick rates and win rates. Chromie has burst but no stun or blink. Gul'dan has survivability but no burst til he ramps up at 16 (and that still requires even more ramping), and it's questionable if his survivability is really all that much better than Li-Ming's (and maybe even KT's once he completes his quest). No real reason to choose either if you can get Li-Ming or KT because while they are functionally sound, they still feel like shadow versions of heroes who came before them because those heroes' designs were fundamentally broken from the start.
Honestly if the game had gotten Jaina, Gul'dan, and Chromie to begin with instead of Jaina, Kael'thas, and Li-Ming first I think everything would be in a better state right now.
As for Gul'dan, on THH they were talking about the corruption talent at 16, but I still feel all of the corruption talents, sans possibly the one at level 1, are trap talents. The Q increase at 16 stacks so easy and provides so much more damage and you don't have to hope someone derps into it.
IMO what we see with Chromie and Gul'dan is two mage-types who are severely outclassed in some form or fashion by their predecessors, hence lower pick rates and win rates. Chromie has burst but no stun or blink. Gul'dan has survivability but no burst til he ramps up at 16 (and that still requires even more ramping), and it's questionable if his survivability is really all that much better than Li-Ming's (and maybe even KT's once he completes his quest). No real reason to choose either if you can get Li-Ming or KT because while they are functionally sound, they still feel like shadow versions of heroes who came before them because those heroes' designs were fundamentally broken from the start.
Honestly if the game had gotten Jaina, Gul'dan, and Chromie to begin with instead of Jaina, Kael'thas, and Li-Ming first I think everything would be in a better state right now.
As for Gul'dan, on THH they were talking about the corruption talent at 16, but I still feel all of the corruption talents, sans possibly the one at level 1, are trap talents. The Q increase at 16 stacks so easy and provides so much more damage and you don't have to hope someone derps into it.
scoobs
Member
Here is the real problem. They keep releasing worse versions of older, better heroes. We never need another mage, we have Kael'thas and Li Ming. The only way you could make a better mage is to make them hilariously overpowered.
And Gul'dans level 1 and 16 corruption talents are the source of all of his power btw. Or at least that is the only way i ever have success with him. His Q is straight garbage for anything but clearing minion waves and his W should be reserved for sealing kills and trying to stay alive (even though you will always die)
And yet Li-Ming has a below 50% win rate, and has dropped off the pro-scene quite a bit as well. Even at the higher levels there are numerous assassins who fare better than her overall.
I think the issue is that they have failed to make the new mages as strong in their respective areas as the original two. I think Chromie is just a fundamentally flawed character who, like Nova, can never allowed to be decent because she's so spectacularly unfun to play against. I think Gul'Dans issue is that he's supposed to be a sustained damage mage and yet he doesn't have a single point and click DOT and his most used spell is the definition of an AE burst spell - combine that with the ability of healers to just wipe out his dot damage and he's got issues.
Gul'dan should be tougher to kill than the other mages, and his damage should be boosted on his dot and sustain stuff. That's partly a flaw in the game though - sustained damage and dots need to be viable more than when the enemy team takes Uther as their healer.
I think the issue is that they have failed to make the new mages as strong in their respective areas as the original two. I think Chromie is just a fundamentally flawed character who, like Nova, can never allowed to be decent because she's so spectacularly unfun to play against. I think Gul'Dans issue is that he's supposed to be a sustained damage mage and yet he doesn't have a single point and click DOT and his most used spell is the definition of an AE burst spell - combine that with the ability of healers to just wipe out his dot damage and he's got issues.
Gul'dan should be tougher to kill than the other mages, and his damage should be boosted on his dot and sustain stuff. That's partly a flaw in the game though - sustained damage and dots need to be viable more than when the enemy team takes Uther as their healer.
scoobs
Member
Completely agreed, this is how you fix him. If you get dove on as Gul'dan you are 100% dead unless your support is there to save you. There is no escape from any kind of dive comp, and his health is too low to survive any kind of burst damage. I assume they figured he could stay alive with his drain life spell, but every damn hero in the game has an interrupt at the ready so... he may as well not even have that spell.
Despite all of this I'm having more fun with him than I've had with a new hero since like... Greymane I think. His design, in theory, is great. He's just got no place in the game right now until his numbers get tuned up a bit.
Would making his Drain Life ability unstoppable be too OP as a fix for his shitty survivability? Probably... but I'd like that a lot.
Edit: holy shit listening to THH and all the pros discussing Guldan... They have no clue, goes to show you snap judgments are worthless. They all seem high in him and are saying he's a good counter to dive comps lol... Christ
Part of his problem is the current body blocking bug - any hero can "push" him when they get close, and that interrupts drain life. I wouldn't be surprised if that was hurting his win rate quite a bit, because none of the dive heroes should be able to interrupt him (Thrall, Greymane, Illidan, Sonya - none have interrupts capable of stopping it).
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I mean let's go all the way back to Leoric on THH, or how Snitch aptly put it "Zoia said he was bad so we knew he was good". Oh wait I think that was monk.
Thrall R, Sonya Q?
Thrall R, Sonya Q?
scoobs
Member
Have a hard time seeing a 59% win rate support (master league) not being viable at all. I do not believe it.
Wait you can interrupt channeling by bumping them right now?
Also a disparity between winrate and actual effectiveness when used correctly isnt the most surprising thing w/r/t new heroes, but im sure wr would be affected for guldy if you could cancel his drain by touching him lol
Big part of greymane backlash was w/l stats. Conversely, ppl were relatively chill about medivh
Also a disparity between winrate and actual effectiveness when used correctly isnt the most surprising thing w/r/t new heroes, but im sure wr would be affected for guldy if you could cancel his drain by touching him lol
Big part of greymane backlash was w/l stats. Conversely, ppl were relatively chill about medivh
She's viable in some situations, but the problem is that only 3 healers specifically deal with burst damage.
Nazeebo and BW are both super sustainy and have "safe" heals/damage. That they both do well in HL isn't an accident.
Yeah, they made some unintended changes to body blocking which means you "push" heroes by clicking through them. It means that Leoric ca't block you leaving an entomb, you can just push past him. Also means you can't be trapped in the scenery on certain maps - and that you can interrupt any channelled spell by just walking into people.
Tempo Storm Tempest is happening: https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/4tmi3r/tempo_storm_acquire_tempest_unofficially_confirmed/
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