Support NeoGAF

[Maledict]

It's not that she's dead, or even bad - she's great. Its the fact that EU teams were drafting her in place of an assassin in two tank comps, and it simply didn't work. It's not enough damage on point when you need it, and some teams knew how to beat it (e.g. dignitas).

It's not that the hero is flawed, it's that the drafts were fucked up and badly done, particularly from Fnatic who kept forcing it every game no matter what.

Complete side swerve - Please ban silenced players from unranked draft. They should not be there. Drafting with a silenced player is horrendous, and every game I have one they always resort to mad ping spam and AFK bouts. If someone is deemed unfit to play in ranked draft, they should also be put out of unranked draft.

Blizzard also needs to bite the bullet and actually just ban people for toxicity. The escalating silence is good and all, but ultimately some players need to be removed from the game for the good of the whole. It doesn't matter if someone is silenced if they are still sitting AFK in the core because they died early on, and nothing is ever done about it. Even LoL has harsher penalties.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I had some fun games today in unranked.

I pick sylvanas next two pick chogall, last 2 pick illidan, butcher,... Their reasoning was that the others picked chogall and their quest.

Couple games later. "Pick morales so they don't get her", "can we have a spec" like that's a necessity and lastly 3 people disconnected!

One game we actually won someone wanted to pick chogall but then changed their minds because of opponents picks, which was fine but they changed it to li ming hammer after we already had chromie. Thankfully we didn't have a tank yet and I could go Johanna to wreck the opposing all AA team.

 

[kirblar]

It's not that she's dead, or even bad - she's great. Its the fact that EU teams were drafting her in place of an assassin in two tank comps, and it simply didn't work. It's not enough damage on point when you need it, and some teams knew how to beat it (e.g. dignitas).

It's not that the hero is flawed, it's that the drafts were fucked up and badly done, particularly from Fnatic who kept forcing it every game no matter what.

Complete side swerve - Please ban silenced players from unranked draft. They should not be there. Drafting with a silenced player is horrendous, and every game I have one they always resort to mad ping spam and AFK bouts. If someone is deemed unfit to play in ranked draft, they should also be put out of unranked draft.

Blizzard also needs to bite the bullet and actually just ban people for toxicity. The escalating silence is good and all, but ultimately some players need to be removed from the game for the good of the whole. It doesn't matter if someone is silenced if they are still sitting AFK in the core because they died early on, and nothing is ever done about it. Even LoL has harsher penalties.

You totally missed the "Wailing Arrow isn't enough/Speaking of Silences..." opportunity there!

edit: What's that site w/ tournament results Jake loves?

 

[brian!]

this one http://masterleague.net/

lol ppl on thh fantasizing about guldan trait the way ppl in this thread fantasize about hero kits
tons of nice ideas like lower health = more dmg, activating give more dmg on next spell, etc.

 

[kirblar]

this one http://masterleague.net/

lol ppl on thh fantasizing about guldan trait the way ppl in this thread fantasize about hero kits
tons of nice ideas like lower health = more dmg, activating give more dmg on next spell, etc.

thnx

Here's data on just how poopy the Syl drafts were:

Group A)

Fnatic/TBD G1-W- Fnatic wins w/ 2T/Syl + Li Ming (Li Ming actually makes this work because of her damage output.)

Fnatic/TBD G2-W- TBD wins w/ Arthas in bruiser role, providing makeup damage

Dig/Fnatic G1-W- Fnatic wins with 2T + Syl

Dig/Fnatic G2-L- Fnatic loses with 2T+ Syl

Dig/Fnatic G3-L- Fnatic loses with 2T+Syl

Epunks/TBD G1-L- Epunks loses w/ Arthas in Bruiser role

Epunks/TBD G2-L- TBD loses with 2T + Syl

Fnatic/TBD G1-L- Fnatic loses with 2T+Syl

Fnatic/TBD G2-W- Fnatic wins with Arthas in Bruiser and Li-Ming in Ranged

Fnatic/TBD G3-L- TBD loses with Raynor/Stitches/Arthas

Group B

Jabroni/EE G2-W- Jabronis win with Greymane in Assassin role.

Finals Day

Fnatic/Mis G1-W- Fnatic wins with 2T+Syl

Fnatic/Mis G2-W- Fnatic wins with 2T+Syl+Tass Healing

Fnatic/Mis G3-L- Fnatic loses with Li-Ming

Fnatic/Mis G4-L- Fnatic loses with Arthas/Tyrael/Greymane/Brightwing

Dig/Misfit G2-L- Misfits lose with 2T+Syl

Dig/Misfti G3-W- Misfits win with Tyrael/Illidan

Dig/Misfit G4-L- Misfits lose with 2T+syl

8 Games won with this setup, 10 lost. When you look at the wins, there are 3 w/ Li-Ming, 1 w/ Tassadar instead of a full healer, 1 w/ Illidan as Assassin, and 1 w/ Arthas as a bruiser instead of a full tank. 4 wins involving hyper-carries and 2 involving hybrid dmg/tank or dmg/heal heroes.

Without any of these things present, the team doesn't work, and the results reflected that.

Without a Bruiser, Hybrid Healer, or Hyper Carry on the team, this comp had a 2-X winrate. A standard assassin like Falstad isn't enough damage.

 

[Celegus]

Bought Auriel since she's 10k total and oh my goodness she is so much fun. Best release since Tracer by a long shot!

 

[kirblar]

Yeah, she's fantastic.

Gul'Dan and Malf have the same issue- they're DoT/HoT heroes who aren't able to do what they need to.

 

[scoobs]

Bought Auriel since she's 10k total and oh my goodness she is so much fun. Best release since Tracer by a long shot!

Yep shes by far the most fun support in the game. Actually have more fun on her than most assassins, aside from holy trinity of Illidan/Kerrigan/Zeratul

 

[Maximus.]

He's not supposed to be that bursty. They want him to be going after low health targets after poke poke poke. Right now he 100 to 0s you easily.

A lot of people don't get this. He is great at poking and ending people. See lots of shade for low hero damage, but when people say that, to me it just shows me they don't know what they are saying.

 

[Ketch]

Guild Wars had lots of skills each with ups and downs vs the standard heal/short cool down like cannot self target, half casting range, huge cool downs etc.. A few ideas I see:

-Heal, +More heal if target is CC'd, +More heal if target is channelling, +More heal if target is > or < a % of life OR mana.
-Buff abilities, if allied takes dmg, turn that 1st damage into healing instead, turn all AA into healing for x seconds
-Infuse Health - You lose 1/2 your current life and give it + more to target.
-Maybe more buff/preventative abilities? Kinda like BW

Some of those sound great, but I have a feeling Blizzard wants to keep this as straightforward as possible. Adding in too much complexity will not cater to the casual crowd they've done a decent job at capturing.

No, I'm not saying they shouldn't do these, but I think that's how they would perceive those ideas.

I was thinking they'd make good talents though.

I know I'm basically just a broken record at this point. But I'm just gonna say it again to be as annoying as possible with it... nerf the healing, buff the utility.

The heal spell on a support needs to be the "nice to have" part where the rest of the kit needs to be the reason you pick them. Like tyrande, her kit is sick, her heal is just a nice to have on top of it. But rehgar, his kit is fuckin whatever meh, but his heal is sick as fuck.

I'm talking about a paradigm shift.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Rehgar's kit is great if they nerfed his healing and upped the damage it'd still be great. Bite into totem feels amazing if it cuts the chase short. Double Earth Shield in the totem and stuff. He can do so much more it was that they refused to go after his healing why they had to nerf everything else.

 

[kirblar]

I definitely would not mind seeing his brainless healing knocked down a peg.

 

[Ketch]

uther is even more egregious. like his two other skills don't even matter.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

uther is even more egregious. like his two other skills don't even matter.

His stun does matter.

 

[Ketch]

His stun does matter.

every stun matters. but his is pretty shit.

like maybe the worst stun in the game. I can't think of one that's worse. like maybe explodium charge is worse... maybe.

 

[kirblar]

It's not a skillshot. That's why it's range is so poopy. It's still good.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

every stun matters. but his is pretty shit.

like maybe the worst stun in the game. I can't think of one that's worse. like maybe explodium charge is worse... maybe.

the point that it's a stun on a support makes it good. Being point and click is also superior to skillshot stuns in some cases, the range is booty but comparing it with stuns on assassins and warriors isn't the best comparison.

 

[Ketch]

it's a 0.75 second stun with like melee range on a support with 0 mobility. It really is that bad.

Every stun has inherent value, but uther's is like the worst stun in the game. 0.75 seconds... you can't even say "He's stunned".

edit:

name a stun that's worse.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

you can if it's tracer and there's 3 stuns to follow it up.

name a stun that's worse.

name a solo support with a better stun

 

[scoobs]

It's a decent follow up for other stuns, because Uther is a front line support and basically always in range. Not many supports have a stun so it's definitely not "bad"

 

[Maledict]

Yeah, I don't get the idea that his stun is bad. It has limits like all stuns, but it's the only completely unavoidable stun in the game and it works really well to defend against melee assassins (specifically Zeratul) or as part of a stun chain with your melee assassins.

 

[scoobs]

Not to mention you can stun twice in a row once you pick up benediction. Uther is a fucking great hero, one of my favorite supports to play

 

[Milly79]

you can if it's tracer and there's 3 stuns to follow it up.



name a solo support with a better stun

Auriel

 

[scoobs]

Auriels stun is also much more difficult to land, its a trade off.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Auriel

that's conditional.

 

[Ketch]

you can if it's tracer and there's 3 stuns to follow it up.



name a solo support with a better stun

tyrande.

even just the reasoning of "having a stun on a support" as being something that's strong is part of the problem. Supports should have strong disable, but the best support stun is also the worst stun in the game.


also, I'm not saying he's a bad hero. Just that his heal is way to powerful to compensate for the fact that the rest of his kit is weak. Those things should be swapped. His W and E should be strong and the heal should be a nice bonus on top of that.

 

[Maledict]

I really don't think Uthers stun is weak, or even the weakest stun in the game. Like I said, it's the easiest stun in the game to land and completely unavoidable.

On a side topic - Auriels talents for her E talent, the knock back, are just such garbage. I have difficulty completing the quest even against the AI, and the only one that's any good from what I can tell is the extra distance on the knockback at 13. Problem there is it clashes with the three second blind talent.

 

[scoobs]

Ya they did a really bad job with her E talents. The problem to me is that her E is already incredible as is, and buffing it in rather insignificant ways isn't really a good investment when you can get better wave clear, or heal more efficiently, or get a blind.

They'd have to buff the ever living shit out of those E talents to make them remotely pickable.

Also, Glimmer of Hope might be the worst talent I've seen.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

tyrande.

even just the reasoning of "having a stun on a support" as being something that's strong is part of the problem. Supports should have strong disable, but the best support stun is also the worst stun in the game.

also, I'm not saying he's a bad hero. Just that his heal is way to powerful to compensate for the fact that the rest of his kit is weak. Those things should be swapped. His W and E should be strong and the heal should be a nice bonus on top of that.

Tyrande hardly qualifies as solo support and I agree but that's the hand we're dealt and for a support Uther has a strong kit. The W is the only skill one could argue is weak imo.

 

[Milly79]

THH had Snitch on this week. Best thing is Jake already uploaded it to iTunes!

 

[brian!]

Agree w/ wanting healing to be secondary over utility but utility is also largely why uther is picked

 

[kirblar]

Apparently something big is coming after Blizzcon. The Gold league finals mentioned a TIesque tournament being held in China. Reddit should have more exact translations n stuff.

 

[Alur]

A TI-like event would be awesome, but they kind of already run that style of pro scene with the HGC's and then Blizzcon. It's not on the same skill, but same format. Majors ---> TI.

It's a league that I want and that will help this game IMO. If we could get both that'd be sweet too, but one more huge event and a bunch of nothing going on every week still doesn't seem like a solution to me.

 

[kirblar]

It's apparently being run by NetEase, so I suspect this is in addition to the league stuff (which has to be centered out of Blizzard for obv reasons)

 

[Ketch]

Apparently something big is coming after Blizzcon. The Gold league finals mentioned a TIesque tournament being held in China. Reddit should have more exact translations n stuff.

Ehhh... I'm skeptical (surprise). Does "TI esque" imply 10s of millions in prize pool? Because I highly doubt that's gonna happen.

 

[kirblar]

Would strongly suspect length/structure, not prizes.

 

[Alur]

If they do allow crowd funding via in game purchases like Dota 2, though...that could be huge. Not just for this game either, but for Overwatch as well. They had 90k concurrent viewers across all language streams at peak on that 100k tournament over the weekend (77k tops on the main stream itself). Everything they do for one can benefit the other if they play it right.

There's a reddit post on the front page that asks Blizzard to attempt to re-sale itself to the public after all these changes and upgrades and heroes. Stuff like this could go a long way towards that. Them letting this thing out in Alpha in it's state was...probably one of the hugest blunders this company has ever made honestly. And despite it they still make money.

 

[kirblar]

If they do allow crowd funding via in game purchases like Dota 2, though...that could be huge. Not just for this game either, but for Overwatch as well. They had 90k concurrent viewers across all language streams at peak on that 100k tournament over the weekend (77k tops on the main stream itself). Everything they do for one can benefit the other if they play it right.

There's a reddit post on the front page that asks Blizzard to attempt to re-sale itself to the public after all these changes and upgrades and heroes. Stuff like this could go a long way towards that. Them letting this thing out in Alpha in it's state was...probably one of the hugest blunders this company has ever made honestly. And despite it they still make money.

I think the Alpha helped in the long run because it developed the very fast feedback cycle that is kind of insane coming from Blizzard. The game wasn't even ready post-launch, really, so it didn't really matter when it went live, they were always going to have to try and RoS this thing.

 

[Milly79]

Solid jak egg's new site: http://arcane8.com

He's trying to turn his part of his house into a studio as well.

 

[kirblar]

Mount Change explanation: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/20748844838

tldr: More importance on laning, less deathball is the goal

Hey everyone,

We know there's been some discussion around the Mount Speed changes that were seen in the Gamescom build. In case you are not aware, we have reduced Mount Movement Speed from 40% to 30%, and also adjusted a number of equivalent powers. These changes will be coming into the PTR next week, and we're excited to see how you guys feel after playing with them.

We wanted to give you guys some insight into why we are making this change, so Alex Neyman, one of our Game Designers, wrote the following:

&#8220;Heroes of the Storm is a team brawler, and we aren&#8217;t trying to change that. From all of our internal testing, this change had a minor (healthy) impact on the number of viable strategic options and interesting choices that players can make during a game.

With that being said, our goals with reducing mount speed are:

Slowing down the 2-4 man early game gank squads on bigger maps

Hopefully this will allow prolonged 1v1 and 2v2 matchups when there are no battleground events up more often. You can still gank, it just won&#8217;t always be as effective, and therefore you&#8217;ll need to make harder decisions on whether it&#8217;s worth it or not.

Making map-wide team positioning matter more

If you commit resources to a Mercenary camp at the top of the map, you might be later to a Tribute spawn on the bottom. This will encourage more interesting strategic choices, forcing you to choose which of the minor objectives (like Mercenaries or Minion waves) are important, or potentially split up your team to get multiple done at once and still reach a map event on time.

Making recognition of the enemy team&#8217;s location on the map more significant

With slightly slower mounts, when an opponent disappears from view his radius of places he could potentially be is smaller, allowing more informed decisions. Which, ultimately, rewards better play and mastery of the game.

That&#8217;s briefly summarizing a few of the potential gains that slowing down mount Movement Speed should provide. It&#8217;s important to note that there are also downsides if we take it too far, but tuning Heroes&#8217; capability to travel the map is an important part of balancing the game. Theoretically, saying &#8220;we&#8217;re reducing damage because we think burst is too high&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean that we want to completely remove Assassin&#8217;s capability to kill someone. The same way, slowing down mounted movement speed slightly doesn&#8217;t mean that we don&#8217;t want you to quickly traverse the map. Just slightly slower! And we think that we&#8217;re getting closer to the perfect balance of the two.

Right now sticking together as 4 or 5 post level 10 is probably the correct decision 90% of the time. Our goal is to get this to maybe around 80%. Some concrete examples of the difference these mount changes make:

The time to run from Cursed Hollow&#8217;s top lane to bottom Tribute will be increased from 18.5 to 20 seconds while mounted, with a direct route.

The time to run from Sky Temple&#8217;s bottom lane to the top temple will be increased from 22 to 24 seconds while mounted, with a direct route.

To provide some insight into how we do design, sometimes we test extremes to see if the direction is even worth pursuing before settling on something that feels appropriately tuned. One such example was increasing the mounting cooldown from 4 seconds to 80 seconds, but the Movement Speed was increased from 40% to 80%. Ultimately we didn&#8217;t like the extreme change this made to Heroes of the Storm, but it make us think about where we were on the map more often. We really enjoyed that, so we wanted to bring a slightly tamer version of it to live.

We think that we&#8217;ll all still be enjoying those epic 5v5 brawls we&#8217;ve all come to love. We just might split up one or two more times between the big fights so that we can get all the minor objectives we&#8217;d like before the next big team event will start.&#8221;

They're still debating Solo vs Duo vs Trio queue internally as well.

 

[Milly79]

Oh Jesus

 

[brian!]

Mount speed is really definitive to the game and effectively reduce the sizes of maps, cutting it down makes decision making more important and makes heroes with mobility baked in more specialized. Good move imo, dont have any thoughts on what a 10% reduc has in practice tho

Oh not to mention nerfing how free engages are in this game despite ur kit, very gud

 

[scoobs]

Such a minuscule change, I really don't see why people are freaking out about it

 

[kirblar]

Such a minuscule change, I really don't see why people are freaking out about it

Loss aversion.

 

[Milly79]

Death ball hasn't been that huge since the spec rise

 

[Pilgrimzero]

Man, when a team works together it actually feels fun.

So far Moradin seems my best. Planning to work on Sonya though she doesn't seem as survivable.

Used my gold to get Nova. Why are skins $10? I want the Widowmaker skin but not for that much.

Saw a guy play Tracer to get effect, though again he had teamwork, where when I tried her, I did not.

 

[scoobs]

Man, when a team works together it actually feels fun.

So far Moradin seems my best. Planning to work on Sonya though she doesn't seem as survivable.

Used my gold to get Nova. Why are skins $10? I want the Widowmaker skin but not for that much.

Saw a guy play Tracer to get effect, though again he had teamwork, where when I tried her, I did not.

Skins go on sale, just wait for the ones you like to show up on the weekly sale. Sonya becomes an unkillable god after 16

 

[Ketch]

Mount speed is really definitive to the game and effectively reduce the sizes of maps, cutting it down makes decision making more important and makes heroes with mobility baked in more specialized. Good move imo, dont have any thoughts on what a 10% reduc has in practice tho

Oh not to mention nerfing how free engages are in this game despite ur kit, very gud

Also an indirect buff to low mobility heroes like hammer and lunara

Direct nerf to nova though.

 

[Sothis Krieg]

So just tried Auriel and while i'm mainly a warrior/assassin player she is legit fun and good.

 

[Maledict]

Death ball hasn't been that huge since the spec rise

Death ball is still the standard strategy 95%+ of the time...