Ya. Was trying to point out both halves (HL v competitive) where he's dumpster in neither. He's going to have to be a Muradin-esque hero w/ a lower than average HL winrate simply because of how insane he is in competitive.
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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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Agreed. Neat design, nfc what he's useful for.
Melee assassin with no escape move and a complex, potentially team-mate fucking engage. I'd be surprised if he didn't to be honest with you.
I was so hype for him, too. He's still fun, no doubt, just going to require a lot to make work, sadly. TK is a sweet ability, it's just a bit wonky and hard to pull off on the fly from my experience. Half the time I click and draw within the radius, then click again and nothing happens. His heroics are also kinda just... There.
I love play melee, but I'm scared as fuck to go in with him compared to any of the others.
I love play melee, but I'm scared as fuck to go in with him compared to any of the others.
I just want a hero to release that's good in solo queue Blizzard. It's not been a good 8 months for that. And as much as I love Zarya, it may be the same there since she's a warrior. Hopefully not.
Alarak reminds me too much of discount Star Wars. His mounted animation is sweet, though.
Alarak reminds me too much of discount Star Wars. His mounted animation is sweet, though.
Of those, I'd say Li-Ming and Xul were viable solo. Tracer could be as a stretch, sure, but she was also pretty team reliant to get any real damage done that wasn't chip damage. And yeah, Greymane was not solo queue viable at all when he released.
Auriel is not exactly solo viable. I mean, by the criteria, yeah you could take her in solo queue and maybe not hate yourself for playing a support. But to get the real value out of her, you have to have someone around you that you can trust to build your energy, and that's hard enough playing in all situations with one friend playing as DPS, let alone some randoms in solo queue.
Even if you count all of those, we are still at a deficit compared to heroes that are basically comp only or niche. If you go back into 2015 it's even worse. This is a list going all the way back to last September:
(2015)
Rexxar -- Nope
Morales -- She's became viable, but at release was very comp/team dependent
Artanis -- Nope
Lunara -- Not at release but is now
Cho'Gall -- By nature not soloable
(2016)
Greymane -- Nope
Li-Ming -- Yep
Xul -- Yep
Dehaka -- Nope
Tracer -- Depends on how you feel about her kill potential I guess.
Chromie -- Nope
Medivh -- Nope
Gul'dan -- If he was better, he could be.
Auriel -- Nope
Alarak -- Nope
It is a team game and all that, yadda yadda, but damn if it hasn't been a dry fucking run if you wanna just log in and play some solo games. Particularly when you compare it to the run of heroes who dropped in the Spring/Summer of 2015 prior to Rexxar.
Auriel is not exactly solo viable. I mean, by the criteria, yeah you could take her in solo queue and maybe not hate yourself for playing a support. But to get the real value out of her, you have to have someone around you that you can trust to build your energy, and that's hard enough playing in all situations with one friend playing as DPS, let alone some randoms in solo queue.
Even if you count all of those, we are still at a deficit compared to heroes that are basically comp only or niche. If you go back into 2015 it's even worse. This is a list going all the way back to last September:
(2015)
Rexxar -- Nope
Morales -- She's became viable, but at release was very comp/team dependent
Artanis -- Nope
Lunara -- Not at release but is now
Cho'Gall -- By nature not soloable
(2016)
Greymane -- Nope
Li-Ming -- Yep
Xul -- Yep
Dehaka -- Nope
Tracer -- Depends on how you feel about her kill potential I guess.
Chromie -- Nope
Medivh -- Nope
Gul'dan -- If he was better, he could be.
Auriel -- Nope
Alarak -- Nope
It is a team game and all that, yadda yadda, but damn if it hasn't been a dry fucking run if you wanna just log in and play some solo games. Particularly when you compare it to the run of heroes who dropped in the Spring/Summer of 2015 prior to Rexxar.
Um, Tracer was freakin broken as hell on release. She hit 60% win rate before being nerfed, and that was the fastest they nerfed a new hero. She was absolutely solo viable - her survive ability was so high she was capable of jumping through a team to kill her target then get out alive.
Her winrate was ridic, no doubt, but as I said then I feel it was more from people being unable to deal with her movement due to a lack of precedent than her being some insane killing machine that needed to be stamped down. I never felt she was out of line like Ming and Xul were contrary to many of you here. She got stamped down anyway so it's moot.
Regardless of picking out that one nit with Tracer, though, do you not agree? I mean there were like 14 other heroes in that list and an overall point.
Regardless of picking out that one nit with Tracer, though, do you not agree? I mean there were like 14 other heroes in that list and an overall point.
I'm typing fast because on my way home from work, but I do completely agree. But I also think Chromie is the biggest piece of shit hero the game has introduced since I've been playing, and a complete failure of both design and development on every single level, so not sure how good my opinion is... ;-)
Familie is gonna have words with you on that.
EDIT: On a larger scale, I guess my complaint is that not only are we being denied solo queue viable heroes...but those heroes are also often the strongest and biggest impacts on the meta. So we've really had a lot more "nothing" releases than we've had heroes who truly shake things up. I wanna see the world burn, boys. Give me that 65% winrate hero.
EDIT: On a larger scale, I guess my complaint is that not only are we being denied solo queue viable heroes...but those heroes are also often the strongest and biggest impacts on the meta. So we've really had a lot more "nothing" releases than we've had heroes who truly shake things up. I wanna see the world burn, boys. Give me that 65% winrate hero.
Don't think we're gonna be seeing that this far into the game's life, sadly.
EDIT: I actually (strangely) feel like the player base has gotten less skilled as we've moved on instead of more skilled. I feel like a lot of the stuff we see happen at our MMR level didn't happen nearly as often or even at all last fall and before. Just so much more feeding and general stubbornness.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Chromie was solo queue able you just never got to play her because she needs the opposing team to draft a shipwreck.
Alarak is great for streamers imo since you watch them make plays for days with him.
Have you seen Chu8 play him, grandiose. Though that was against scrubs so idk.
Alarak is great for streamers imo since you watch them make plays for days with him.
Have you seen Chu8 play him, grandiose. Though that was against scrubs so idk.
Haha, isn't that the definition of not solo-able, though?
For me, solo queue viable means in most situation this hero can function without hurting the team or being completely shut down, even if it's not necessarily the "best" pick. It's still a good pick and doesn't require your team to provide a lot of support/setup/coordination to make work.
And no I haven't seen chu8 on Alarak. I would like to see some pros on him for sure just to see what he looks like. It's hard to tell from PTR cause the games are so lopsided.
For me, solo queue viable means in most situation this hero can function without hurting the team or being completely shut down, even if it's not necessarily the "best" pick. It's still a good pick and doesn't require your team to provide a lot of support/setup/coordination to make work.
And no I haven't seen chu8 on Alarak. I would like to see some pros on him for sure just to see what he looks like. It's hard to tell from PTR cause the games are so lopsided.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
That seems to restrictive.
Niche playable is still solo queue able to me. I can pick chromie and not feel like a detriment. Not very often but it happens.
Seems more like you want every hero released to be all around good to great and then we're just gonna have a homogenised pool within a year.
Anwyway what I want to say with this, is that I love chromie.
Please don't buff, since that'd just end in a rework.
Niche playable is still solo queue able to me. I can pick chromie and not feel like a detriment. Not very often but it happens.
Seems more like you want every hero released to be all around good to great and then we're just gonna have a homogenised pool within a year.
Anwyway what I want to say with this, is that I love chromie.
Please don't buff, since that'd just end in a rework.
Chromie is an abomination. They took the absolute worst parts of Nova, amped them to 11, and then dressed it up in some awful tacky "teeheehee I'm a schoolgirl" shitty dressing.
She isn't a dragon. Her trait is garbage, and she has nothing to do with time. When she works, she is toxically unfun to play against. When she doesn't work, she does nothing. If you're in quick match and it's a no healer game, good luck and have fun with that one!
A complete and absolute failure on every level. Both thematically and in game, the one absolute miss from them this year.
She isn't a dragon. Her trait is garbage, and she has nothing to do with time. When she works, she is toxically unfun to play against. When she doesn't work, she does nothing. If you're in quick match and it's a no healer game, good luck and have fun with that one!
A complete and absolute failure on every level. Both thematically and in game, the one absolute miss from them this year.
Niche playable could be construed as solo viable in some scenarios, yes, but again you contradict yourself by saying "not very often". She's not solo viable unless you're a masochist or give no fucks about your team.
I do want every hero released to be good. Doesn't everyone? No one likes when shit heroes are released, or underpowered heroes or what have you. That doesn't have a damn thing to do with homogenization though.
When we can only get an average of 1 out of every 3 or 4 heroes released to be viable and non-frustrating to play in the method the majority of players play, that is a problem. Not every hero needs to be solo queue friendly, but it's not a lot to ask that more heroes are solo queue friendly because, again, they are also often the ones who show up in competitive. They are the heroes who get drafted in Hero League. etc etc
Are you saying you're okay with the whole lot of nothing we've had in regards to impact on competitive and change in Hero League drafts over the past year? Lunara, Greymane, Li-Ming, and Xul are the only four heroes that we ever see with any kind of frequency in either of those modes. There's more heroes on that list who are next to never seen in competitive or regular Hero League play (Rexxar, Artanis, Cho'Gall, Chromie, Dehaka, Gul'dan) than there are heroes who see it regularly. That's not good IMO.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You misunderstand, I said good to great all around. I want heroes to be good as much as you but if they have to be good in all scenarios or just in the most common, that will be very restrictive for their design team.
HL is inherently slow to change especially at the lower level, where it not only is slow to change but they still ban mother fucking Morales... STOP THAT, KT is also still getting banned first.
@ Gamescom only 13 heroes weren't picked and I disagree on the drafts in competitive being even close to what you describe.
HL is inherently slow to change especially at the lower level, where it not only is slow to change but they still ban mother fucking Morales... STOP THAT, KT is also still getting banned first.
@ Gamescom only 13 heroes weren't picked and I disagree on the drafts in competitive being even close to what you describe.
You disagree with what exactly about what I said with competitive?
I said that by and large the heroes released in the past year have had no impact on competitive. That's pretty well true.
Of the fifteen, a good third or more don't see even see play. Another third can be niche picks, but aren't all that common. The other 5 or 6 have more or less been constants once they were released or were balanced into being good...and in general, competitive sticks with those same 20 to 25 constant picks and ignores the rest of the roster bar a niche pick for a certain team or map, unless a new hero drops which makes an impact or a balance patch removes one of those constants from the board. There needs to be more of that, by far. Hell, they can barely even release a hero that's competitive viable but NOT solo viable and see it get regular play (see: Medivh). EDIT: Also worth mentioning that since competitive doesn't pick them, the same thing happens in Hero League.
Only 13 might not have been played but how many more than 13 only saw play once or twice? The vast majority of heroes we see in comp are always in rotation and unless Blizzard releases a hero that is on that level, it's like a small pebble thrown in a lake.
I said that by and large the heroes released in the past year have had no impact on competitive. That's pretty well true.
Of the fifteen, a good third or more don't see even see play. Another third can be niche picks, but aren't all that common. The other 5 or 6 have more or less been constants once they were released or were balanced into being good...and in general, competitive sticks with those same 20 to 25 constant picks and ignores the rest of the roster bar a niche pick for a certain team or map, unless a new hero drops which makes an impact or a balance patch removes one of those constants from the board. There needs to be more of that, by far. Hell, they can barely even release a hero that's competitive viable but NOT solo viable and see it get regular play (see: Medivh). EDIT: Also worth mentioning that since competitive doesn't pick them, the same thing happens in Hero League.
Only 13 might not have been played but how many more than 13 only saw play once or twice? The vast majority of heroes we see in comp are always in rotation and unless Blizzard releases a hero that is on that level, it's like a small pebble thrown in a lake.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Yes of the new heroes only a third have been or are frequent picks, I don't think that's even that bad a rate. But how many reworks changed the meta during the same time many of which have been close to heroes having been rereleased.
Maybe Dehaka would see more play if Anub hadn't been redesigned roughly during the same time. Not to mention that he was semi frequently picked shortly after release but since then has died down.
It's also highly player/team dependent if a hero becomes meta or not. Kharazim didn't become Meta until bakery popularised him.
If adrd was still on dignitas we might all be banning Medivh first right now.
Naventic and Fnatic brought back Lunara. Europe then Korea were scoffed at for picking Greymane.
Maybe Dehaka would see more play if Anub hadn't been redesigned roughly during the same time. Not to mention that he was semi frequently picked shortly after release but since then has died down.
It's also highly player/team dependent if a hero becomes meta or not. Kharazim didn't become Meta until bakery popularised him.
If adrd was still on dignitas we might all be banning Medivh first right now.
Naventic and Fnatic brought back Lunara. Europe then Korea were scoffed at for picking Greymane.
Personally, I don't need new solo-queue friendly heroes. I just wish more of the older cast was solo queue friendly again. Muradin and ETC were always boring for me, for example, but Diablo's rework made him suck too much and Leoric and Sonya don't have enough CC. Mages took over Assassins and I vastly prefer auto-attackers but I'm afraid to play any draft to avoid people complaining about me not picking any of them. And I hate hate hate Uther with Rehgar not that far behind.
Oh, and Sgt. Hammer, my favorite hero, who they eluded to getting a rework soon, seemingly has that rework pushed back until after Machines of War at this point. And if by some chance it doesn't make it into that patch, by then I'll probably be Zarya'd out and just run back to Overwatch until 2017.
It's half the reason why I was ready to leave HotS when Overwatch was coming out. Hell, the only reason I'm trying to get back into Heroes right now is because Zarya releases in a month.
Ugh, I'm thinking of just skipping out again. What I really want is to just have my small stable of heroes I enjoy and only play that, but draft will never be friendly for me and quick match will always be an even worse roll of the dice. I'll likely never be compatible with MOBAs.
Oh, and Sgt. Hammer, my favorite hero, who they eluded to getting a rework soon, seemingly has that rework pushed back until after Machines of War at this point. And if by some chance it doesn't make it into that patch, by then I'll probably be Zarya'd out and just run back to Overwatch until 2017.
It's half the reason why I was ready to leave HotS when Overwatch was coming out. Hell, the only reason I'm trying to get back into Heroes right now is because Zarya releases in a month.
Ugh, I'm thinking of just skipping out again. What I really want is to just have my small stable of heroes I enjoy and only play that, but draft will never be friendly for me and quick match will always be an even worse roll of the dice. I'll likely never be compatible with MOBAs.
Mages aren't really the thing they used to be right now, Proven. Jaina and Li-Ming are good, sure, but there shouldn't be anyone flaming you if you pick someone like Falstad or Lunara or Thrall or what have you.
As for a small stable of heroes, that's definitely doable. Milly has always had his 3-5 that he played the majority of the time (mage lyfe OP). It depends on what 3-5 it is, though, and being a Sgt. Hammer main in HOTS is like being a Hanzo or Widow main in OW. Nothing but sadness for you whenever you lock that hero in and the team sees it.
EDIT: Hammer does have the third highest winrate in HL right now though.
As for a small stable of heroes, that's definitely doable. Milly has always had his 3-5 that he played the majority of the time (mage lyfe OP). It depends on what 3-5 it is, though, and being a Sgt. Hammer main in HOTS is like being a Hanzo or Widow main in OW. Nothing but sadness for you whenever you lock that hero in and the team sees it.
EDIT: Hammer does have the third highest winrate in HL right now though.
I think your wrong about rexar. He's good in solo que, and solo HL. He just gets fucked sometimes by bad comps.... But that has nothing to do with the hero. Edit: I should say that bad comps can screw over any hero.
Also, even though chogall needs two people, I think he's borderline broken as fuck in QM and HL with unorganized teams involved.
Also also, I think the long list of solo que non-viable heroes would be okay if the game didn't have a bunch of generically good all the time heroes to begin with like ETC, Rehgar, falstad to name a few.
Like those QM matches you get sometimes when it's nova, li Ming, aba, chromie, artanis vs. nova, li ming, tracer, Sonya, gazlowe. Like, a shit show, but not a totally unbalanced shit show. And often still lots of fun.
The problem is when one side gets ETC and the other side gets rexar. But I guess that's the point, I just think that it's probably better in the long run that they keep adding more situational heroes instead of more ETCs. But in the short term it really makes the game unfun to play for me.
Edit again: What if power slide was just a displacement and not a stun?
Also, even though chogall needs two people, I think he's borderline broken as fuck in QM and HL with unorganized teams involved.
Also also, I think the long list of solo que non-viable heroes would be okay if the game didn't have a bunch of generically good all the time heroes to begin with like ETC, Rehgar, falstad to name a few.
Like those QM matches you get sometimes when it's nova, li Ming, aba, chromie, artanis vs. nova, li ming, tracer, Sonya, gazlowe. Like, a shit show, but not a totally unbalanced shit show. And often still lots of fun.
The problem is when one side gets ETC and the other side gets rexar. But I guess that's the point, I just think that it's probably better in the long run that they keep adding more situational heroes instead of more ETCs. But in the short term it really makes the game unfun to play for me.
Edit again: What if power slide was just a displacement and not a stun?
That's a fair point. If they pared down the any size fits all heroes and released only niche heroes then it wouldn't feel as bad.
As it stands, they their "best all around" heroes early in the development cycle (ETC, Muradin for tanks. Rehgar, Uther for heals and so forth) and nothing that isn't similarly well rounded can displace them from "nearly always a good pick" category.
It's kind of like familie's love of Chromie and Maledict's detest for her. I feel like she's what a mage hero should've been from the start, but instead we got KT and Li-Ming so she feels crap in comparison. If she'd have been the first, though, and pioneer of the "mage" in HOTS perhaps it could've been different at this point. I don't really know if that's the case, I just find it interesting to think about.
As it stands, they their "best all around" heroes early in the development cycle (ETC, Muradin for tanks. Rehgar, Uther for heals and so forth) and nothing that isn't similarly well rounded can displace them from "nearly always a good pick" category.
It's kind of like familie's love of Chromie and Maledict's detest for her. I feel like she's what a mage hero should've been from the start, but instead we got KT and Li-Ming so she feels crap in comparison. If she'd have been the first, though, and pioneer of the "mage" in HOTS perhaps it could've been different at this point. I don't really know if that's the case, I just find it interesting to think about.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Leoric is in a good spot right now whenever you see the opposing team having a couple players with bad escapes go for it and Entomb the shit out of them.
He's really good in the early laning phase which is about to be heavily emphasized with the next patch.
All that's lacking to make Leoric insane again is just to slightly buff his waveclear.
Sonya has 1 CC in her base kit and another available as her Ult. She's in a great spot right now as long as your team doesn't think Warrior = tank. She's especially broken on BoE.
Her waveclear is good her burst and single target dps great and she's sustained in lane completely.
Heck if you want to troll with her you can go and take the build that solos bosses.
Hey man opinions can be wrong not Mal's fault.
Jesting
Game will be dead before we get to 85.
My dislike of chromie is nothing to do with her power level or the other mages though. I hate her because she makes games unfun when she works. She kills people from a screen away with no counter play, and if your healer doesn't have cleanse temporal loop can just kill you. She's nova basically, and she seems to attract a lot of the same type of players.
It's not like she is very good, she's just unfun when she works.
As someone who looooooves playing ETC, that would really hurt me, but I can see them doing it someday to be honest. His kit is just so strong, when his ult is one of the most impactful in the game.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
But aside from the combo, which should get cleansed 9/10 games, you can outplay chromie, basically if you in any way can just go near her you just did and it's a marvel if your team pulled off not having drafted a single one or otherwise can't penetrate their comp.
Other than that her skills are still more than adequately telegraphed. Li Ming out of the fog of war can't be outplayed. With Chromie it's a game of chicken really. Which makes it so satisfying if you win.
PS. Fuck Nova.
P.P.S. There's one situation where she can't be outplayed on towers if you want to invade an altar. If the fort still stands you're never gonna cap it.
P.P.P.S. E placement is the game within the game
Paragon. But it also only has like 40 heroes atm.
League does a lot considering they have like 140 heroes already or something, and they're reworking a lot of the old ones all the time too.
Dota is like 1 per year.
Paragon actually only has 21 heroes so far, according to their website, but also advertises a new one every 3 weeks.
Not to my knowledge. Dota 2 is like what once or twice a year? League seems to do one every two or three months but for some reason it feels like longer (they've released 4 this year and 5 last year). I have no clue on Smite especially since they have the cheap "get all heroes" package.
Vainglory does drop one every month on average and releases content/skins at about the same rate as Blizzard does and does balance once per month. They are in a slightly different category since it's on IOS and Android, but I would argue it's as quality as these are.
EDIT: Didn't know about Paragon. Talk about ded games. keke huehueh /s
The road to leagues starts with the Nexus Games: http://us.heroesofthestorm.com/esports/en/news/20266224
From what I've heard anecdotally, shitshow.
Well, that's something I guess. Don't think the prize pool is gonna cause any pros to over exert themselves, but at least there's games to play and watch.
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