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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

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B

brian!

Member
im not really rating off of results just off of who I think are good players lol
i think fan is good but overrated, I feel like this is a pretty straightforward thing to think that doesn't really need phoenix wright evidence

i dont use this tourney against fan at all in my mind, they were a new team and they are adapting to this patch slowly
he played random ass shit like kael and xul tat hes prob not in practice with

oh im gonna add jason to the list, he showed up like crazy this tourney and his positioning was high level
 
K

Ketch

Member
Idk man. The list of players who are consistently winning without having bad individual performances or downright throwing the game for their team is short.

Has fan every thrown or not performed? Zuna certainly sticks out as some one who does. they're not even in the same league.

King caffeine and dunk train are the only other players I can think of who reach that caliber.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
I disagree on cattle at least, he was being hyped up a ton but has been more miss than hit for most of the year.
I generally didn't follow the hate on arth and erho but neither has ever seemed that outstanding.

I can't estimate jun since I've got little clue about supports and I never paid attention to fury. GFE looked stronger with bkid in his place though for some time.
 
C

Celegus

Member
Cattle impressed me a lot this tourney and Jun is really making a claim for the #1 NA support (whatever that's saying). Glad Murlocs showed it wasn't just a fluke, but even they need to improve a lot to stand a chance at Blizzcon.
 
B

brian!

Member
i feel like fan contributes to the games he loses and wins...like let's say a person watches a replay tallying mistakes in a single game, fan is in there making mistakes or idling just like the rest, he just often gets a pass...

like if someone else was playing xul in that last game on spiders theyd get called out repeatedly, thas all im saying

also try not to take my list seriously guys, I literally just mentally skimmed who I remember off of teams that I think are good contributors to their team, I don't really think anyone is a super star in NA and heroes is kinda bad for that too, if I had to pick out super stars itd be shotcallers and ppl who can keep the peace in their team, but a decent chunk of that is rng too so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
B

brian!

Member
for me both fan and caff are the type of players that do well if stuff is being taken care of by the rest of the team, like both excel if they count on their team for certain things. there are a lot of reasons why gfe would underperform this tourney though

caff's q out of maw in that last game for example, that shit is a zunafeed if his team doesnt follow up., but they did and he looked like a god

i really dont think the idea that fan is overrated is too crazy, ppl have been salivating over him for the longest time, he is a good reliable player and that's really valuable, like I feel that is a realistic thing to say vs. the type of things that are usually said about him which I'm sure creeps him out the most

also @ the nvt staff salt over no double elim, ofc I don't like the way they go about it but it seems really clear to me from this tourney that the top teams are taking games off each other kinda randomly and I wish the thing had been set up in a way that makes you feel yeh the best teams are going to blizzcon
 
A

Alur

Member
All this conversation has confirmed for me is that after ~2 years of watching pro HOTS and playing this game with brian!, I legit still wonder if we play or watch the same game.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
brian! said:
for me both fan and caff are the type of players that do well if stuff is being taken care of by the rest of the team, like both excel if they count on their team for certain things. there are a lot of reasons why gfe would underperform this tourney though

caff's q out of maw in that last game for example, that shit is a zunafeed if his team doesnt follow up., but they did and he looked like a god
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You had my attention

brian! said:
i really dont think the idea that fan is overrated is too crazy, ppl have been salivating over him for the longest time, he is a good reliable player and that's really valuable, like I feel that is a realistic thing to say vs. the type of things that are usually said about him which I'm sure creeps him out the most
Click to expand...

but now you have my curiosity
 
B

brian!

Member
well denial 2-0'd mg and then lost the whole thing to them, nvt went something like 6-3 and when they win it feels the most clean, gfe got a pass into third place despite not making it out of groups, like it just feels wonky and I couldn't really predict where any team would be at in like 3 weeks

iunno w/r/t fan ima just chalk it up to him being really liked and ppl not caring as much when he makes mistakes, the idea that all of a sudden he's playing like ass because he's on gfe doesn't mesh w/ how I think of him, he was literally playing as usual to me but w/ bad drafts on top of it so maybe it stood out more to ppl? or him not winning stood out? dunno
 
A

Alur

Member
re: Fan making mistakes. They all do, there's no doubt. But when I watch, I see Fan consistently performing at a level that pretty much none of these guys match. He doesn't hurt his team. He's extremely flexible. When needed he can carry his team, but he never forces it.

Contrast that with someone like Zuna or Glau, who can carry but often force it and cost their team dearly. iDream is the same way, though to a lesser degree than those two.

A player like k1pro is on the level or possibly higher level than Fan on two or three heroes, but if and when those heroes are banned or countered, he's a detriment as well. You could pretty much double that for KingCaff as he's basically had the year from hell after coming out looking like a god last fall.

kirblar said:
Wut. It's a problem with the Glau/Udall/Fan role being specific.
Click to expand...

Fan's role isn't specific, though. That's what makes him the best IMO. He can be a true flex. He can specialize range, or specialize melee. He did both with C9. He did both with NVT. It's when he (or they) try to make it specific that shit goes awry. He's best as the guy who covers holes in the team with his flexibility...or if you need Abathur or Illidan. He's basically the anti-Glaurung.
 
A

Alur

Member
As ever, if NVT could just fix their tilting issues they'd win everything in NA with ease.

Even the slightest bit of adversity wrecks them psychologically, however.
 
B

brian!

Member
Alur said:
re: Fan making mistakes. They all do, there's no doubt. But when I watch, I see Fan consistently performing at a level that pretty much none of these guys match. He doesn't hurt his team. He's extremely flexible. When needed he can carry his team, but he never forces it.

Contrast that with someone like Zuna or Glau, who can carry but often force it and cost their team dearly. iDream is the same way, though to a lesser degree than those two.

A player like k1pro is on the level or possibly higher level than Fan on two or three heroes, but if and when those heroes are banned or countered, he's a detriment as well. You could pretty much double that for KingCaff as he's basically had the year from hell after coming out looking like a god last fall.



Fan's role isn't specific, though. That's what makes him the best IMO. He can be a true flex. He can specialize range, or specialize melee. He did both with C9. He did both with NVT. It's when he (or they) try to make it specific that shit goes awry. He's best as the guy who covers holes in the team with his flexibility...or if you need Abathur or Illidan. He's basically the anti-Glaurung.
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i feel this completely, but it's the how we see the game thing again lol. I feel like a lot of the things you're saying are positive and real things that make him a good and valuable player. but a lot of it is me just seeing it from a different angle. like a common scene for him is 4 ppl on his team dead while he's alive, you can say it's because he's better but I'll often see it as "where the fuck was he during the fight" or "ok he retreated because that is the right call, but where was the rest of the team? why werent they on the same page?" and so on...like I feel like a narrative w/ him has become so much about how he is apart from his team as a player. he left/got kicked from c9 because of this...like he says it's because of playstyle (his style is much more optimal/aggroish nvt style so the move made sense) but it's also because two different styles + lack of communication = eventual death of a team, him leaving c9 made perfect sense to me. the great thing about fan is you can be like, yo fan we need a high level player playing x character can u do it, and hes like aight, but his playstyle (imo) is very standard/smart and very very low on taking risks. which is fine, but like I said, I don't necessarily see that as just a positive.

compare it to zuna who plays w/ similar optimalness in mind, all he fucking does is believe in ppl to follow up on his risks, and the risks he takes that pay off hardly ever get noticed. I dunno one of the casters broke it down risk taking vis a vis heroes pretty well today but i dont remember who

if I had to do a really superficial comparison on who's the best flex in na right now it'd be jason but I mean it's not a fair thing to say something like jason is the best flex player in na even though he was the best flex player at this tourney
oh also big e is really good, and he's like fan to me, he'll play what you need and play it well

oh just thought of a decent way to see zuna vs. fan, compare both's tyrael playstyles
 
K

Ketch

Member
It sounds like what your saying is that since zuna plays optimally but takes risks that get himself killed and lose games he's a better player and is not bad communication or team play.... But fan plays optimally and doesn't feed or get himself killed or cause the team to lose so he's a worse player and bad team communicator.

That doesn't make sense.
 
K

kirblar

Member
It's effectively calling Fan the smart guy among idiots in Hero League, who needs to learn to go with the herd instead of making the "right" play.
 
B

brian!

Member
nah that's not what I'm saying, more if a tower dive is the right move zuna will go in first and fan wont
i think all the top players are smart players

w/r/t ^ the reason korea is the best region is because they all make the right decision at the same time
 
K

Ketch

Member
brian! said:
nah that's not what I'm saying, more if a tower dive is the right move zuna will go in first and fan wont
i think all the top players are smart players

w/r/t ^ the reason korea is the best region is because they all make the right decision at the same time
Click to expand...

The way I see it though zuna is making the proverbial tower dive when it's not the right move... Like even if a tower dive is the wrong move zuna will go first. Like 1 out of 3 times he gets it right.

On the flip side if he played it safe, and still only got it right 1 out of three times, at least he wouldn't be feeding... And then maybe I'd agree with saying he's one of the best.

Basically right now I'd say he's glaurang tier except he gets to be team captain.
 
M

Maledict

Member
I didn't get to watch much, but from the games I saw the issue wasn't Glaurongs hero pool, it was simply that he isn't up to the same top tier level as other players on those heroes. I caught the tracer game, and to put it bluntly he was just bad on her. Their draft as a whole was bad (go Lili!), but on top of that he was the one person dying each time because he overextended or was out of position.

I love watching glaurong but they need to fix their issues with him right now. Also cannot believe Murlocs went and did the same as Dignitas and won two regionals in a row. No offence NA but that shouldn't be happening!

EDIT: Also, NVT don't get to complain about the finals not being double elim after they literally threw one game away with that dumb cheese on Sky Temple. They had the keep down, and then they pointlessly forced a base race for no reason. Maybe don't throw games with cheesy crap like that and you wouldn't need double elim?
 
K

kirblar

Member
Murlocs were drafting better and doing better map cheese than other teams. They noted that on commentary and I 100% agree. They did Syl + Xul on BB, which is just like doing TLV + Syl on CH. And that Li Li pick was incredible.
 
M

Maledict

Member
kirblar said:
Murlocs were drafting better and doing better map cheese than other teams. They noted that on commentary and I 100% agree. They did Syl + Xul on BB, which is just like doing TLV + Syl on CH. And that Li Li pick was incredible.
Click to expand...

Who the fucking hell is letting a team get Sylv and Xul on blackhearts bay? Seriously, that's close to malpractice in drafting.

Edit: I still cannot understand. What were the bans? Sole merc img heroes like sonya and Illidan? Once you eliminate those two I just don't see what other heroes are at the power level of xul and Sylv on that map. It's a pve map and they are two of the strongest pve heroes in the game, both of whose special abilities tie directly into the map in a hugely powerful way!
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
There's been a lengthy discussion among EU players on twitter about the strength of first pick.

kirblar said:
Murlocs were drafting better and doing better map cheese than other teams. They noted that on commentary and I 100% agree. They did Syl + Xul on BB, which is just like doing TLV + Syl on CH. And that Li Li pick was incredible.
Click to expand...

Exactly this, we've seen MG be outmatched by pretty much every top team when it comes to raw skill it's their drafting and map knowledge that got them their wins. And I don't mean that derogatory they are vastly ahead of the rest of NA.
 
B

brian!

Member
Ketch said:
The way I see it though zuna is making the proverbial tower dive when it's not the right move... Like even if a tower dive is the wrong move zuna will go first. Like 1 out of 3 times he gets it right.

On the flip side if he played it safe, and still only got it right 1 out of three times, at least he wouldn't be feeding... And then maybe I'd agree with saying he's one of the best.

Basically right now I'd say he's glaurang tier except he gets to be team captain.
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all I'm saying is that fan's narrative deflects criticism while zuna's narrative attracts (often unwarranted) criticism, I'm not really interested in designating either as worse or better and I'm fine w/ the narrative. it makes sense to target the dude who's negative contributions are associated w/ the explodey death sounds

there was one game fan played a couple of months ago that I was pretty impressed with, where he played off-tank illidan and mainly got cds and skirted along the edges w/ very low support priority

but otherwise I mean check out his play in this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8160&v=KMQDJeXWqEw, look at how he plays tyrael/second tank. he's plays well, but he's following up, he's playing scared, his style is that he will go in to get the dregs or to get a completely free kill. not once does he suicide this game, on a character where you suicide. i really feel like his play in this game exemplifies how I see his style, which at many points is a good style, and at many points really really hurts his team.

here for ex. where he runs away after two on his team get popped (https://youtu.be/KMQDJeXWqEw?t=2h30m45s), like what the fuck you got bw coming up for the tele and their whole team is low beside uther who you dont want to kill first and there is a chest spawn bot, both zuna and tomster recognize this but fan just peaces out?

Familienoberhauptvogel said:
There's been a lengthy discussion among EU players on twitter about the strength of first pick.



Exactly this, we've seen MG be outmatched by pretty much every top team when it comes to raw skill it's their drafting and map knowledge that got them their wins. And I don't mean that derogatory they are vastly ahead of the rest of NA.
Click to expand...

this is why giving a short amount of time for patch prep really makes this type of tourney not satisfying, mg deserve all the credit for being on top of the patch but that doesn't necessarily mean that the best teams are headed for blizzcon right now. well anyway I guess it doesn't really matter if the best teams in na go or not in the end lol. oh also I guess this kind of sounds like im saying mg is less mechanically skilled, which isnt true, they are on the same lvl mechanically imo w/ any other team in na, they just happen to play together and smarter/more patient too lol, best team in na atm def won.

first pick is definitely an advantage but I also think the players recognize that there are so many things going on besides that too. bakery's point about statistics is really on the nose and extend to things beyond fp w/r/t hots
kenma/nvt's complaints are pure salt, like the timing of the tweets aint a coincidence lol regardless of validity
 
A

Alur

Member
Didn't the master league dude and bakery confirm that's not the case, though? Has anyone went game by game to see from this tourney?
 
A

Alur

Member
51% is not really anything to be going on a tirade about though. The way he acted it was the Stone Cold Lock of the Century of the Week (thanks Carl).
 
P

patchday

Member
So wait-- that means if I'm a pro team and I get second pick I have a 49% chance to win then.

We only taking like 2% difference but I guess that's a big number when lots of money is at stake
 
A

Alur

Member
Well, considering it's 40% odds in Korea, I don't think it's much to be fussed about.

EDIT: From the semifinal series of NVT vs Murlocs.

Game 1 Murlocs vs NVT - Murlocs first picks Thrall and loses
Game 2 Murlocs vs NVT - NVT first picks Auriel and loses
Game 3 Murlocs vs NVT - Murlocs first picks Zagara and wins thanks to NVT cheese throw
Game 4 Murlocs vs NVT - NVT first picks Auriel and wins
Game 5 Murlocs vs NVT - Murlocs first picks Kerrigan and wins

So it was actually in the favor of second pick in this series, but NVT inexplicably got greedy (like beyond the pale greedy) and threw hard in a game they already had won by a huge degree in virtually every way.
 
K

kirblar

Member
patchday said:
So wait-- that means if I'm a pro team and I get second pick I have a 49% chance to win then.

We only taking like 2% difference but I guess that's a big number when lots of money is at stake
Click to expand...
1% difference is really, really good.

HS's variance between first and second is huge.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
Alur said:
Well, considering it's 40% odds in Korea, I don't think it's much to be fussed about.

EDIT: From the semifinal series of NVT vs Murlocs.

Game 1 Murlocs vs NVT - Murlocs first picks Thrall and loses
Game 2 Murlocs vs NVT - NVT first picks Auriel and loses
Game 3 Murlocs vs NVT - Murlocs first picks Zagara and wins thanks to NVT cheese throw
Game 4 Murlocs vs NVT - NVT first picks Auriel and wins
Game 5 Murlocs vs NVT - Murlocs first picks Kerrigan and wins

So it was actually in the favor of second pick in this series, but NVT inexplicably got greedy (like beyond the pale greedy) and threw hard in a game they already had won by a huge degree in virtually every way.
Click to expand...
It also has to do with preparation multiple teams mentioned how they basically prepare with 2nd picks in mind already.

Irregardless of NVTs huge throw.

Denial also threw against Murlocs game 1. Even with their Tracer comp they just went for core when they had finally gotten a favourable trade and lost right there. Could have gotten out with just a keep and fought another day.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Korea apparently has a completely different system for deciding first picks past G1, which is likely the cause of the discrepancy.
 
K

kirblar

Member
L5 with one of those low damage Syl comps. They need to snowball, luckily, they're not idiots and picked a map where Syl can do that.

Edit: yup this is the bullshit you have to do. Ed copied the team would understanding the strategy (without a hyper carry)
 
scoobs

scoobs

Member
You guys think they need to change the way sylvanas trait works? It's so cheesy and makes her awesome on basically every map
 
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