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[Alur]

It is def one of the strongest traits. I'm not sure she's broken enough to require that, but I do think it'd be an uphill battle for them if they changed her given her popularity.

They'd basically be making a new hero at that point more than one year after her release. Some real League of Legends style reworking.

EDIT: From a thread on reddit, some words of wisdom:

"You lose 100% of the 4v5s you don't take" - your team.

Keep that in the mind the next time your team feeds without you. They believe in their potential, so why are you trying to hold them down?

 

[kirblar]

You guys think they need to change the way sylvanas trait works? It's so cheesy and makes her awesome on basically every map

Yes. Autos only.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

It is def one of the strongest traits. I'm not sure she's broken enough to require that, but I do think it'd be an uphill battle for them if they changed her given her popularity.

They'd basically be making a new hero at that point more than one year after her release. Some real League of Legends style reworking.

EDIT: From a thread on reddit, some words of wisdom:

"You lose 100% of the 4v5s you don't take" - your team.

Keep that in the mind the next time your team feeds without you. They believe in their potential, so why are you trying to hold them down?

Because I'm forcing a back by threatening core.

 

[brian!]

Unless you can 1v5 letting ur team die is never the right move

 

[Alur]

I was mostly being facetious, lol, but agreed.

I think the quote was referring to the times when someone is already dead and the team engages in a 4v5 fight for an objective anyway.

 

[brian!]

good sky temple primer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuSPWCON6Po

I was mostly being facetious, lol, but agreed.

I think the quote was referring to the times when someone is already dead and the team engages in a 4v5 fight for an objective anyway.

Yeah actually there is a plethora of situations where peacing out is correct but for some reason my brain went to a really specific thing when i was thinking about it (late game merc contest lol)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Well just had a game where they were pushing as 5 top and my team went to defend a fort we had no way defending and I just went and cleared waves at the bottom threatening core and forcing their chogall to back. Almost ended up soloing him but monk helped me confirm the kill.
Like it was me half health vs Cho full health but range + cdr + damage on w wittled them down quickly.

The best thing was the opponents had a zeratul that was harassing my team. Li Ming runs around and I ping danger around her to signal her zeratul is right there. She just runs around aimlessly gets killed and says.

"damn that zera is good"

He wasn't good, his moves were so obvious I could W and Q him stealthed. Scrublife.

 

[Milly79]

I think Syl needs a change to her trait, yeah.

 

[Milly79]

Get your Mac fix w/ Cris on eu servers

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Here we go again?

 

[Milly79]

Oh boy... Of course.

 

[Maledict]

FFS. one tournament, a mere couple of weeks after they change members, and another change? When will NA learn that if you want to win you need to stay together, you cannot just endlessly reshuffle the same talent and hope to find the magic answer.

Look at Dig in EU. Everyone doubted them like crazy after they replaced Wubby with Alex (including me!), and they did *terrible* at Valencia. But they stuck with the team, kept practising, and then won two regionals back to back.

Team synergy comes with time, you can't just team change constantly.


(Saying that, they do have a conflict between Udall and Fan both doing the same role).

 

[kirblar]

Yeah, this change has to be made.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

to be fair they are looking at 3 months of barely anything wouldn't surprise me if someone from their team chose to focus on school instead

 

[Alur]

Color me intrigued.

What if Fan decided to hang it up because he saw brian!'s posts and was like "dude's right, I am mediocre."

I mean what if fam

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

That'd just makes Glau's stock rise.

 

[Alur]

I'm not sure the Udall/Fan overlap is such a problem. They both play a good amount of heroes, and someone has to play them. Not sure that they are going to find someone better than each other for that spot. It's only a problem if ego is a problem, and Udall said it wasn't a problem from the moment they got Fan.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

False alarm btw

 

[Alur]

Figures. They could've at least made it funny.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

Tried unranked. Was cool to see everyone working together.

My issue was the character select. I had no idea what to choose and their attempt at advice failed due to me not having those characters, plus I can't regconize what roles others have filled since I don't know all of them on sight. The timer ran out and it auto choose for me.

Was I missing something obvious that told me what roles where filled? Like hover over a players character and it will tell me "range support" or whatever.

 

[scoobs]

Tried unranked. Was cool to see everyone working together.

My issue was the character select. I had no idea what to choose and their attempt at advice failed due to me not having those characters, plus I can't regconize what roles others have filled since I don't know all of them on sight. The timer ran out and it auto choose for me.

Was I missing something obvious that told me what roles where filled? Like hover over a players character and it will tell me "range support" or whatever.

Ya at the top of the character selection screen in draft mode there are little icons for Warriors/Assassin/Support/Specialist. Clicking on each one will limit the hero selection to that choice.

 

[Alur]

Was I missing something obvious that told me what roles where filled? Like hover over a players character and it will tell me "range support" or whatever.

If you're still that unfamiliar with a lot of the heroes roles/general look, you might wanna study up on em with VODs or a website (or just play more) before going back in. It's pretty important to be able to recognize what you're working with and against in order to keep from getting clobbered in draft before the real game even starts.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

If you're still that unfamiliar with a lot of the heroes roles/general look, you might wanna study up on em with VODs or a website (or just play more) before going back in. It's pretty important to be able to recognize what you're working with and against in order to keep from getting clobbered in draft before the real game even starts.

All orks look alike

 

[Alur]

There are several of the skins that make the hero look like another hero. Muradin and Falstad come to mind.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Today was a good day. Went 2-1 in unranked but while the loss was an unmitigated disaster I really enjoyed even that match. People in my team didn't realize they had to stay alive to win. Also funny weld lose the first chests entirely and my team would camp the turn in spot and their team actually tried bruteforcing the turn in multiple times.

Forgot to mention a ridiculous juke. Not because it was a good juke but because I just feigned a route and all 5 of them tried blocking me off through that route. Sylv even spent her haunting wave for it. I died once that game because I ran out of mana for my barrel roll.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Kenma agrees with Brian that Fan is overrated

Ahahaha

@JohnathanWithaH his teammates, which is how he made Tomster cry, made biggie consider quitting NVT, and a large part of why Fan left NVT.

Bige even thanked her for the report. That team is going to implode.

 

[Maledict]

The fact that Kenma is easily, easily the worst player on that team makes it all the more funny. Really does prove the rule that the most toxic player in a match is generally the worse player.

 

[brian!]

Who's more overrated than fan lol, blackscorp?

 

[Alur]

I mean if we're being serious about the term overrated, then Glaurung and even my boy McIntyre would be higher up that list. Adrd and Cris are some big names from EU who also haven't had as much success as they've had fans/accolades. bkb too. Overrated typically involves lack of success versus perception, and Fan has had plenty of actual success before we even worry about perceived success or any of that.

As for Kenma, kind of surprised Fan/Ren went public like that. I'm glad they did, as he lacks any semblance of professionalism and regularly holds his own team back, but still pretty shocked that she went at him and that he went at them. Then again, his whole shtick is to say whatever thing he thinks will make the person he's lambasting feel the most insecure.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Who's more overrated than fan lol, blackscorp?

Zuna imo.

 

[brian!]

I mean if we're being serious about the term overrated, then Glaurung and even my boy McIntyre would be higher up that list. Adrd and Cris are some big names from EU who also haven't had as much success as they've had fans/accolades. bkb too. Overrated typically involves lack of success versus perception, and Fan has had plenty of actual success before we even worry about perceived success or any of that.

As for Kenma, kind of surprised Fan/Ren went public like that. I'm glad they did, as he lacks any semblance of professionalism and regularly holds his own team back, but still pretty shocked that she went at him and that he went at them. Then again, his whole shtick is to say whatever thing he thinks will make the person he's lambasting feel the most insecure.

Yeah this + public perception of fan (like the types of comments he gets on thw internet/twitch chat, literally reading comments about how the gfe announcement was gonna be about replacing udall or making fan shotcaller lmao). So like if there were a ratio of contribution to success vs. adoration i feel like fan swings heavily into overrated (his adoration is off the charts compared to anyone else in na, but it s also a c9 thing too)

@zuna he's only really highly rated amongst pros, most consider him a feeder and meme

@kenma he's pretty solidly rated as a toolbag

 

[protonium]

Not even other bronze leaguers should care what Kenma has to say regarding HotS.

 

[Alur]

I don't think many here outside of Ketch really feel Zuna is a bad player. Most pros and objective analysis would conclude he is one of the most skilled players in the world. His decision making which you tout as a plus, however, has been demonstrated over and again as poor and counterproductive. The hits are far fewer than the misses and that's why he's reduced to a meme by viewers.

Considering the fact that he and Fan are the most discussed players in NA, it's easy to see why most prefer Fan because he's won even more than Zuna and doesn't produce glaring mistakes on the regular. The stats compiled and released on Reddit from each region comparing the prominent players a while back implied Fan was the best or near the best western player on several heroes and one of only two or three even close to Rich and the Korea boys.

I don't get the argument that Fan is overrated because he's more passive and thoughtful in his play than Zuna. I also don't get the argument that Zuna "literally always trusts people to follow up" or whatever it was you said about him yoloing all the time is a good thing when it's been demonstrably shown as a detriment repeatedly because he doesn't take the whole situation in context. He's literally the dude in your hero league game who has higher MMR and expects everyone around him to play a certain way but fails to explain properly what that is because he gets bloodlust every time he thinks he can make a play. And then he dies and turns around and says "where the fuck were you guys?"

 

[brian!]

Im not really considering this forum when i talk public perception, and my perception of fan being a bit stat paddy (afraid to die, goes for non-risky in the bag situations, etc.) at the cost of his team is my own, im sure most ppl dont agree w/ that. Ive only ever said that imo fan is good but overrated and here's why

Pushback like "nah hes the best in the west" makes sense but i dont think anyone in the west stands out as best...like to me the only time fan has carried a team was in hotd...

 

[Ketch]

I think that zuna is mechanically one of the best top 3 even. But mechanics is only like 1/3 of the game the thing that holds him back the most is his shitty attitude.
He's supposed to be the team captain. He acts like he's 9 and he deserves the losses he gets because of it. In game and out.


"Better to be the most toxic" is those fuckers in a nutshell

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Bakery is streaming right now, which is a very rare occassion.

 

[kirblar]

I think that zuna is mechanically one of the best top 3 even. But mechanics is only like 1/3 of the game the thing that holds him back the most is his shitty attitude.
He's supposed to be the team captain. He acts like he's 9 and he deserves the losses he gets because of it. In game and out.


"Better to be the most toxic" is those fuckers in a nutshell

They're the reason TCGs do so well- randomness gives you an easy scapegoat to protect your ego.

 

[brian!]

Like backpacking off my blackscorp comment, dude has great results and was a premier melee player for a good team at his time, but does he deserve the reputation he got at the time as best zeratul/melee/carrier of entire teams? Not saying he wasnt good, but he was definitely overrated. Fan's reputation these days is consistently "how do we change the things around him so he can carry cuz he's the best and ppl stop holding him down?" Cmon

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I can't argue with you on that issue since I only got to reddit for updates and twitch chat is always hidden.

 

[brian!]

Yeah i expose myself too much to reddit lol

 

[Alur]

Fan's reputation these days is consistently "how do we change the things around him so he can carry cuz he's the best and ppl stop holding him down?" Cmon

What exactly is wrong with that statement, though?

Like why does this guy having so much shine bother you? You admit he is a proven winner and a premier player on the team that was the best in the world at one point, and has been on the best team in NA for basically a year solid til last weekend. To me, that definitely sounds like someone you would want to build your team around. Particularly when you consider that he can reliably play ranged as well as melee, so you basically get one of, if not the most flexible player to boot to do that construction with. I mean, you once argued Arthelon had a bigger hero pool than Fan which several here disagreed with, but in current times who really plays more heroes in NA at a high level that is active?

Those are the players you want to build around. Not players like Glau, who while he can be great, limits his team.

I can't fathom how dude being more passive than most "superstars" is a bad thing and therefore makes him actually overrated. This is like the LeBron defers at the end of games argument all over again. I feel like you are talking more about the fact that Fan is constantly discussed than that his actual play is overrated. For sure, he gets brought up a lot more than is probably warranted in discussions that may not even involve him or his team, but that's different than being overrated because he does actually produce results. ESPN and everyone else blows out LeBron coverage constantly and it gets annoying (and I am a Cavs fan), but it'd be pretty hard to realistically argue LeBron is overrated. Fan is not LeBron, but he is the winningest player in NA history who has a hell of a hero pool, plays them well in pro games, and is also one of the top players in regular pleb ladder too. By any measure he's earned his shine.

 

[kirblar]

People haaaaaate defensive play. Doesn't matter if it's MTG (control decks), MMA (Silva/GSP) - they whine and complain about it all day long, even if it's not a problem.

 

[Alur]

Haha, it's true. Milly knows what that lyfe is like.

 

[brian!]

It doesnt bother me at all lol, im just saying he's overrated, i dont mind that he is

In terms of passive play, the fact that he doesnt playmake or initiate much just doesnt mesh w/ the narrative of him being a held back carry + me bringing up zuna was only really to show an example of how their respective playstyles, imo, help shape their public perception, to the extent that zuna's decisionmaking is repeatedly questioned and fan is effectively never questioned unless he's missing a skillshot or something...like it's all to the end of thinking about how each player is received by the public, im not in here trying to say zuna > fan when they have completely different roles in their team, just that fan's playstyle deflects criticism and zuna's style attracts it

Oh in terms of flex, i wouldnt really think of jason showing up this tourney and playing more roles vs. fan as indicative of one being beyter than the other, fan is a good and flexible player and is a coup for w/e team can find him, but you definitely dont build a team around the most flexivle player imo...itd be a different story if he was more known as an impressive shotcaller but he's pretty quiet from what i hear.

Also, unrelated, but apparently he has beef w/ idream according to reddit gossip..

 

[Milly79]

Yeah, I do know what that's like.

And I was watching Lockdown/duckdeok yesterday. And I have to say, I don't think any other region stands a chance unless they choke at Blizzcon. They are leaps and bounds above what I watch on a daily basis from NA streams (no idea about EU really). They were getting matched up against golds for Christ sake and those said golds looked a helluva a lot better than what I see in diamond NA.

 

[brian!]

Yeah i dunno what korea hl looks like but in na at least there is a lot of correct play that has yet to be standardized, i know korea is supposed to be way more toxic so it's possible that ppl have been beating down optimization into the players the way dota and league are learned

 

[Ketch]

Like backpacking off my blackscorp comment, dude has great results and was a premier melee player for a good team at his time, but does he deserve the reputation he got at the time as best zeratul/melee/carrier of entire teams? Not saying he wasnt good, but he was definitely overrated. Fan's reputation these days is consistently "how do we change the things around him so he can carry cuz he's the best and ppl stop holding him down?" Cmon

Ohh. I guess I don't really think about it like that. I haven't really watched since fan and Mac where on NVT. But my issue and same with c9 before that is: when you have the best players in the region on your team and you play/act in a way which does not produce results then it's a real fuckin let down.

And then when say zuna is a top tier player and fan is overrated I look at that history and I'm like nah. Fan has consistently proven that he knows what it takes to play and win at a high level while zuna has consistently proven that he's actually not as good as he thinks he is.

His play style or whatever you want to call it just holds his entire game back. And then his attitude compounds the issue.

 

[brian!]

Nah i get where everyone is coming from, me im here thinking that if you asked me whos #1 in na i cant identify anyone like that but for a lot of ppl it's fan, but i attribute a lot of that thinking to the type of game he plays. I only brought up tyrael because i think his playstyle doesnt mesh w/ fan's style well (and is more suited to more proactive styles like zuna/korea, ESPECIALLY usage of imposing will), where he's more suited for ranged assassin or cleanupish melee like sonya/illidan. Thats why i brought up that one illidan game he played that i was really impressed with, where he drew attention and cds and wasnt there to be an obvious "our team revolves around illidan comp" illidan but as an off-tankish illidan, that shit was great, but since then his meleeing has fallen off a bit imo.

I think he's a great tassadar though for sure, like in terms of flexing both he and mc were great tass players

Also like tldr when i say fan is overrated it is solely because of his reception in places like reddit/twitch which is borderline creepy to me (as is most of the piling on hate various players receive), i think he's a good player lol

 

[Alur]

Wow @ that Kenma report and the ensuing drama.

First he tells her "god bless" for reporting him, then later tries to defend Kenma because he didn't want it public that he'd almost made him quit the team.

Ren definitely burnt some bridges there for her and Fan both probably, but can't blame her.

 

[brian!]

Yeah much respect to her for the call out
Just hope it dont affect the friendship w/ bige and tomster but fuk kenma for what he thinks he can get away w/