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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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IMO that's probably the weirdest thing about Rehgar from my perspective at least.
Though he is clearly super OP, it's not obnoxious to play against like some OP heroes in the past were (particularly KT). It could be what you were saying, gryvan, the fact that it just sneaks up on you. I feel the same about Li-Ming. She's also really strong but it doesn't piss me off when I get killed by her combo like it does when I would get gibbed by Ignite or Chain Bomb.
The sad thing is that although Feral Lunge is awesome, once they nerf the Lightning Shield cheese everyone will likely go right back to stacking up on every + to heal or sustain talent they can get their hands on. Be nice to see them do something more with totems to compensate or some such.
Though he is clearly super OP, it's not obnoxious to play against like some OP heroes in the past were (particularly KT). It could be what you were saying, gryvan, the fact that it just sneaks up on you. I feel the same about Li-Ming. She's also really strong but it doesn't piss me off when I get killed by her combo like it does when I would get gibbed by Ignite or Chain Bomb.
The sad thing is that although Feral Lunge is awesome, once they nerf the Lightning Shield cheese everyone will likely go right back to stacking up on every + to heal or sustain talent they can get their hands on. Be nice to see them do something more with totems to compensate or some such.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm not so sure about that, I've gotten some blind snipes with Li Ming that gotta be annoying on the receiving end. And I've seen more than a couple of my teammate die obliviously of her.
yeah its basically that.
I guess its to be expected nowadays, some new heroes come out which also tweaked some of the other heroes talent skills/skills itself and then realized that that 1 hero was doing something that wasn't expected it to do something and either makes the hero too OP or becomes completely useless until whenever their hotfixes happened.
YMMV. Though with that said, I haven't read anywhere near the bitching for her or Rehgar that we did Sylv or KT or Thrall before them.
Pretty much any player can eat the insta-gib from a burst hero and get salty. IMO the amount of work you have to do to make that burst work with Li-Ming versus the amount of work you have to do with KT to do the same thing is actually pretty fairly balanced. You can't just blindly throw your shit and it just blows up on everyone like every version of Chain Bomb build that has existed, you have to actually utilize a little strategy unless the enemy blindly walks into your stuff. That's why I don't find her as frustrating.
You can actually see the cause and effect of your actions and hers whereas with KT or Nova it's just "oh, well shit...they hit their two or three buttons and I'm dead GG". A good Nova (pre-nerf) had no reason to miss their snipe if they flanked you and could gib a squishy np. Any ole decent KT could utilize the D+W+W+R to nail half your team with mostly unavoidable damage at our skill level. The relative ease with which you can avoid Missiles and the Orb is a joy in comparison to that for me.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
At your MMR, surere, at mine people are dumb or don't care and while Li Ming has to work a little more for her kills than KT has to she exposes herself much less than he does nowadays and with an escape build in.
Hence I still go into illusionist no matter the build with her, so many jukes. I'm actually curious why people don't complain more she can be so obnoxious. I'm not a particularly good player mechanically yet I've been constantly making plays with her.
I've begun sniping wells on every map, only been punished for it once or twice, and then bully people out of the lane.
Hence I still go into illusionist no matter the build with her, so many jukes. I'm actually curious why people don't complain more she can be so obnoxious. I'm not a particularly good player mechanically yet I've been constantly making plays with her.
I've begun sniping wells on every map, only been punished for it once or twice, and then bully people out of the lane.
Um, I'd have to disagree there. Once you get Ess of Johan li-Ming can kill you in a way that feels totally unfair and makes old Nova look fun. Sniping from the other side of bushes or terrain is *really* obnoxious and a literally one-shot with her abilities and the glass cannon build.
JayPL streamed yesterday playing her on a smurfing account, and I don't think he lost a single game. Once he hit 13 he simply ran round the map obliterating people from the other side of scenery, and it didn't matter if they were grouped or not - if he landed the combo, they died, and it's a *stupidly* easy combo to land thanks to the pull-in and the fact you can't see the orb when it's over scenery or bushes. To be blunt what he was doing was some of the most uninteractive and unpleasant stuff to be on the receiving end that I've seen in game - heroes were literally being one-shot out of no-where with no chance of living.
(no other ranged assassin, not even old nova, does as much damage in their combo as Li-Ming does when talented that way - it's more single target damage than I think any hero has been capable of putting out in under a second in the game to date).
As well as removing Ess, I think they need to make the orb visible over scenery. Not sure if the numbers need changing, it's the fact she can do these silly Nova like instant one shots without chance of escape thanks to the pull-in and the stealth orb over scenery.
JayPL streamed yesterday playing her on a smurfing account, and I don't think he lost a single game. Once he hit 13 he simply ran round the map obliterating people from the other side of scenery, and it didn't matter if they were grouped or not - if he landed the combo, they died, and it's a *stupidly* easy combo to land thanks to the pull-in and the fact you can't see the orb when it's over scenery or bushes. To be blunt what he was doing was some of the most uninteractive and unpleasant stuff to be on the receiving end that I've seen in game - heroes were literally being one-shot out of no-where with no chance of living.
(no other ranged assassin, not even old nova, does as much damage in their combo as Li-Ming does when talented that way - it's more single target damage than I think any hero has been capable of putting out in under a second in the game to date).
As well as removing Ess, I think they need to make the orb visible over scenery. Not sure if the numbers need changing, it's the fact she can do these silly Nova like instant one shots without chance of escape thanks to the pull-in and the stealth orb over scenery.
This is what makes her op to me, she doesnt even have to go in, kts dont have to go in build still hinges around him not dying and a long cd and his general good build has him getting into range of everything. Her stuff is more difficult to land (i think?) but she never puts herself at risk and if someone looks at her sideways she just blinks
Itd be a lot better if her free poke rotation didnt include an unmissable laser, if they make it uncancellable itd have an actual downside (but i wouldnt want that change tho)
Ess of johan is obnoxious and unnecesary but her numbers kind of illuminate how her playstyle itself is a bit broken, once you get to a certain comfortability with her skills youll be taking glass cannon against every comp you feel you can be safe against
Another potential fix is to get rid of the lvl 1 mana talent
Shes not even comparable to rehgar to me, rehgar is just a really good support tbh, who might have to have some numbers tweaked, his new design is pretty solid in my book
They probably shouldnt give him prot shield on a 5 sec cooldown though
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
2 games in a row pretty much thrown, feels bad. I still hate Towers of Doom.
I think you pretty much explained it. She has to work more for it in most cases, and it's not a situation where your teammate blows up on you causing you to die while you were in the clear or anything like that. Like I was saying, the cause and effect is there. Big ass orb incoming = ouch. It's a lot less grating than hey the stick up his ass dude clicked W and now my team blew up and there was no way I could get out of the way because it's not a skillshot.
You also said he was smurfing during that, though. And he's a pro. If it was an actual new smurf of course he was wrecking. If it wasn't noobs and was instead an equivalent level smurf to his main (like McIntyre's smurf, for example) then I dunno what to tell you other than anyone gullible enough to continually fall into that at an MMR above ours maybe should shut it down for the day.
In my own games here's what I see the majority of the time:
Li-Ming has a hero in range that she wants to target during laning phase...hits minions. Li-Ming has a hero she wants to target at the tribute...hits Zag's minions. Li-Ming attempting to stomp in ARAM...hits Anub's beetles. Li-Ming has a target that she wants to hit anytime ever...orb travels, people move, hits someone else. Sure, when those impediments are not there things are much easier for her, but I can't tell you the number of complaints I've seen in chat, had myself, or heard Milly say when I play with him about her spells being clipped by a different target or minions. It's way more common than people getting RKO'd out of nowhere by her combo in my experience which is what I feel makes her less obnoxious.
I've seen people attempt what you're saying but I've not seen it be too successful. The thing is still too easy to avoid unless you were literally on the other side of the bush and it only appears as it hits you (as you are describing, I guess) in which case IMO that's your fault. It's just like getting hooked in the same scenario. Maybe not the most fun gameplay, but I don't (personally) find it particularly obnoxious when I compare it to D+W+W and Arcane Barrier and Bolt.
And for whatever reason it seems the outcry against her is far less than what we've seen in the past. I personally think it's because you actually have to have some modicum of skill to do these things unlike her counterpart but you seem to disagree so, as I said, YMMV.
Unverified, but this dude claims she's behind KT with 1 GP stack by 100 damage and ahead of Jaina by 200 damage on the target dummy in training mode doing just the base combos, no ults. I dunno if he's right or wrong on that, but I feel like she's pretty in line with those two damage wise. She just has the long ass range.
I don't think that's a bad change. I dunno if they can implement it, though. Like I said, it's not unlike hook and you can't see that coming either.
The weird thing is that Ess of Johan doesn't really have any higher winrate than any of her other talents overall. Ess of Johan's w/r is basically the same as her overall winrate which seems counter-intuitive based on how useful the talent is.
Living Bomb and Arcane Orb are both 10 seconds so unless you're talking about another long CD that KT's damage hinges around I don't quite understand? Regardless, KT's survivabililty is just as high as hers with Arcane Barrier (and then Bolt) IMO. I don't find one any harder or easier to kill than the other in my games...I simply find that I'd rather Li-Ming way back in the back of the fight getting her stuff clipped by minions and teammates instead of KT being up in my face blowing up my team. I do think she's stronger than KT now, but again, I'd rather play against her than him because I can see her shit coming and move.
This is true. I don't think the laser itself is bad. The range, like we've all discussed previously, perhaps. I haven't found the damage on it very egregious...it's damage is really just a tickle/final burst reminiscent of Feral Lunge or Kharazim's (E) from my experience. An excellent finisher, not so great otherwise...at least until the resets happen anyway or if someone takes that obnoxious 60% slow.
Maybe. I don't think she needs it anyway, though. The spell shield talent is what I've went when playing for even more survivability and it's not like Aether Walker is terrible, it's just redundant is all. It looks like she wins about the same rate regardless of which level 1 talent she takes so I'm not sure removing that talent is the fix...an increase in mana cost across the board, maybe?
She's comparable to him for me because I don't find either of them egregiously out of line in a typical game. Like I fucking hate playing against KT, or pre-nerf Nova, things like that...I find both Rehgar and wizard very strong but I don't feel like they are unfair or unbeatable with whatever shit comp I get in QM.
And you're probably right on prot shield.
I was talking about the gp/flamestrike build (safe long range build), the general build is cbomb which requires you to get into cbomb range
The mana thing is more for the idea of implementing a lock on her free/safe poke, where later on she might run out of mana if she is spamming nonstop, her mana consumption is unclear to me tho. more Mana costs work, but not if that talent is still around
I think the li ming terror is more like ur getting your twitch reflexes ready even though you know you cant dodge forever (like the nightmare where you are running away but man the thing chasing you is catching up) and kaels is more like omg everypne get out of the building
The mana thing is more for the idea of implementing a lock on her free/safe poke, where later on she might run out of mana if she is spamming nonstop, her mana consumption is unclear to me tho. more Mana costs work, but not if that talent is still around
I think the li ming terror is more like ur getting your twitch reflexes ready even though you know you cant dodge forever (like the nightmare where you are running away but man the thing chasing you is catching up) and kaels is more like omg everypne get out of the building
I was listening to Core (Scott Johnson's HOTS podcast) while driving home after taking my son to school this morning. In it, one of the dudes suggests a fix for Garden of Terror.
Remove GoT from the game. Rebalance it a bit, reskin it into a holiday map (such as gather snowballs to build a giant snowman for Winter's Veil, etc.). Only put it in the rotation during holiday events. Afterward pull it back out. He also suggested you could use Haunted Mines in the same way.
Solves the issue of everyone but me hating GoT and also solves how kind of "dry" the actual content is for these holiday events. Gives those old maps a purpose...and quickly cycles through them so that if folks don't like them it's just a short term thing. He also had some other suggestions, like holiday events giving you reskinned UI's as a reward and things of that nature.
I thought it was pretty cool. Would love to see maps reflect the holiday theme like WoW used to have cities do during their events.
I don't think he's any less safe than her when he's in CB range though. At least not while Arcane Barrier is still around. It's just as stupid as anything she's got going when it comes to survivability.
And yeah, you're right on the mana costs. Didn't think of that. Would have to do both to make it work.
Remove GoT from the game. Rebalance it a bit, reskin it into a holiday map (such as gather snowballs to build a giant snowman for Winter's Veil, etc.). Only put it in the rotation during holiday events. Afterward pull it back out. He also suggested you could use Haunted Mines in the same way.
Solves the issue of everyone but me hating GoT and also solves how kind of "dry" the actual content is for these holiday events. Gives those old maps a purpose...and quickly cycles through them so that if folks don't like them it's just a short term thing. He also had some other suggestions, like holiday events giving you reskinned UI's as a reward and things of that nature.
I thought it was pretty cool. Would love to see maps reflect the holiday theme like WoW used to have cities do during their events.
I don't think he's any less safe than her when he's in CB range though. At least not while Arcane Barrier is still around. It's just as stupid as anything she's got going when it comes to survivability.
And yeah, you're right on the mana costs. Didn't think of that. Would have to do both to make it work.
Yeah barrier is the chronicles of ridic and something should be done probably, but it's at 16
There are differing tier lists but in general it's simple to figure out what is good and what isnt atm, google cris tier list, mcintyre tier list, id recommend zuna's but it's not updated. Both cris and mac diff between hl and comp
There are differing tier lists but in general it's simple to figure out what is good and what isnt atm, google cris tier list, mcintyre tier list, id recommend zuna's but it's not updated. Both cris and mac diff between hl and comp
The latest tier list I could find was from McIntyre. Also has an explanation video.
IIRC it's for solo queue hero league.
It is, but it's not like he's feedarino before then. To me her and him are very comparable in their OP burst damage and equally OP survivability versus perhaps the amount of survivability they should have. Of the three mages, I feel like Jaina is the one who is always at the most risk but even she has ice block and bolt eventually as well.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Li Ming spikes at 10 with disintegrate and gets her survival skill if necessary at 13, KT gets either 3 levels later respectively and has to spent early levels mostly throwing out free bombs.
Still not sold on Glass Cannon, prefer juking opponents with Illusionist. Tried out seeker and it makes her sieging even more obnoxious.
Teleport is so important in the Li Ming mirror match.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Much as I want to just keep rolling to free wins on Rehgar, I know the party will be ending soon and I don't want get myself too used to being able to constantly dive with full aggression until the enemy team is worn down before I even need to fountain.
I'm basically playing nothing but Support and Assassins lately. I feel really one dimensional, but I was never that good a tank anyway. Oddly enough, I tried Anub for the first time in 6 months and really enjoyed him last night. Doesn't hurt that beetle build is stupid viable right now. Might give him a go instead of Muradin for a while.
I'm basically playing nothing but Support and Assassins lately. I feel really one dimensional, but I was never that good a tank anyway. Oddly enough, I tried Anub for the first time in 6 months and really enjoyed him last night. Doesn't hurt that beetle build is stupid viable right now. Might give him a go instead of Muradin for a while.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I'm actually expecting them to knock his healing base dmg down a bit again. I feel like the damage isn't half as much of a problem if his sustain wasn't so strong. There needs to be a reason again for someone to build him with healing talents if you only have one healer and right now it's basically all Lightning Shield all the time. Right now I can get isolated by a team and get two assassins and a tank on me and dump a shield, heal, and Ult on myself and then run out of there unless they land two CCs, meanwhile my whole team has just killed your healer. I expect range on shield to get nerfed and maybe reduce the damage a bit, but basically the totem build I expect to be the primary build after the hammer comes down.
I think his heal is good but weaker than before, he was always picked before for having access to both aoe/burst heal, but the changes made him a really potent dbl support guy in a way that probably needs looking at
A lot of internet ppl have been giving tales of yo i stood in rehgar lightning for the full duration and he beat my head in, pls nerf
I wouldnt mind a heal nerf, but the dbl support scenario would still crop up
A lot of internet ppl have been giving tales of yo i stood in rehgar lightning for the full duration and he beat my head in, pls nerf
I wouldnt mind a heal nerf, but the dbl support scenario would still crop up
Without the extra damage the skill isn't of much use (or reward for using) though. He should do more damage in wolf, and if he doesn't you have no reason to even use the thing other than as a cheese escape or ensnare with 90% totem. They already nerfed it from 200% to 100% when they made it baseline and that difference is noticeable.
I agree the sustain is pretty huge. His damage is not unlike what we see from damage spec'd Kharazim. The trade between the two is that Kharazim loses his self heals and Rehgar keeps his healing ult as well.
I dunno that totem build will be the thing though. I guess I'm just not really seeing the use - particularly if his sustain is nerfed which means you'd have to talent into healing again. The 90% slow is nice, but keeping your whole team alive is better. And theoretically you can still get the slow and go healing otherwise or something. I just can't see picking 4 totem talents the way you pick 4 shield talents right now.
I think having it exist mainly as a chasedown utility thing works and it goes towards helping stop his ability to solo ppl he shouldnt be able to solo, hed still be able to zew if he wanted but the dmg boost every couple of seconds wouldnt be there
Worthy to note that this nerfs his ability to ragdoll ppl with his chomp so his chomp should probably be buffed tbh
Worthy to note that this nerfs his ability to ragdoll ppl with his chomp so his chomp should probably be buffed tbh
It's use as a chase down is hit and miss and always has been IMO. It's still kind of buggy. Sometimes it won't let you actually do the lunge, or it will lunge but not attack. It works the majority of the time and it's awesome, but it'll frustrate you every now and then as well.
It's damage never allowed him to solo anyone before that he shouldn't. It's the stacking of the lightning shield talents that is allowing him to solo and trade, so I don't know why you'd take away the thing that makes him "him" and not adjust the thing that was just added. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
It's damage never allowed him to solo anyone before that he shouldn't. It's the stacking of the lightning shield talents that is allowing him to solo and trade, so I don't know why you'd take away the thing that makes him "him" and not adjust the thing that was just added. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Oh I just meant picking the first and/or last totem talents and healing stuff in between. Maybe even cleanse if they nerf the cooldown reduction wolf talent.
And yeah, having someone at a sliver and dancing behind their ass because the lunge won't come out is as hilarious as it is infuriating
I just feel the point of his rework was to make him much more active and aggressive, but right now you can murder people with a dmg build that is only slightly OP but what probably wasn't intended is that his sustain is still so good there's no reason not to spec like that as a primary healer. There's no reason he should be as good at both things at the same time, and that's what's really making him OP right now. Making his healing weaker might in theory maintain how they want him to play but force him to need healing talents again as a primary healer so you can't just faceplant every encounter and still dish out 70k healing average a game while destroying people.
I think both contribute and i worry that his lightning (a support move) would get overnerfed without touching his z (personal burst dmg, which is not support theme appropriate i guess, tho im not attached to this idea really), like i enjoy the playstyle a strong w enables and if they are directly looking into complaints of him soloing ppl i wouldnt want them to destroy the spell that makes him unique now, id rather they split the nerf out + the lunge is a great replacement for dmg along the lines of switching dmg for utility
Also pro-ragdoll so im conflicted
I don't envy their next move with Rehgar. They basically fucked themselves.
If they had just left his buff as some minor tweaks plus baseline feral lunge people would've been ecstatic. Now though...
Cats out of the bag. If they nerf shields he goes back to being a healbot. If they nerf heals he either specs heals or if nerfed hard enough becomes a hybrid support which may or may not be viable for us plebs.
Either way they lose because like they said in their notes, Rehgar is now the offensive healer we always wanted. That's only happening because unlike his counterparts he has just enough damage and sustain combined to make that work.
There's no real path to keeping him viable in both if his healing gets gibbed. People have shown time and again they'll always take the heals.
If they had just left his buff as some minor tweaks plus baseline feral lunge people would've been ecstatic. Now though...
Cats out of the bag. If they nerf shields he goes back to being a healbot. If they nerf heals he either specs heals or if nerfed hard enough becomes a hybrid support which may or may not be viable for us plebs.
Either way they lose because like they said in their notes, Rehgar is now the offensive healer we always wanted. That's only happening because unlike his counterparts he has just enough damage and sustain combined to make that work.
There's no real path to keeping him viable in both if his healing gets gibbed. People have shown time and again they'll always take the heals.
I'm slightly perplexed by the Rehgar talk.
It's not possible for him to become a healbot like he used to be. He literally only has one talent tier where he can improve his healing - spec as hard as you might, you can't build the old healbot style with Rehgar. If you removed every single lightning shield talent from his tree completely, he'd still be doing the same as he doe snow, only he'd heal slightly better AE instead of single target, and would do less damage. He'd still be lunging into combat and casting stuff because it's so built into his kit now.
There's literally no way to make him a healbot. His new kit is fantastic, all they need to do is lower the numbers on the lightning shield a bit, and possibly reduce the shield at 13 to 10%.
It's not possible for him to become a healbot like he used to be. He literally only has one talent tier where he can improve his healing - spec as hard as you might, you can't build the old healbot style with Rehgar. If you removed every single lightning shield talent from his tree completely, he'd still be doing the same as he doe snow, only he'd heal slightly better AE instead of single target, and would do less damage. He'd still be lunging into combat and casting stuff because it's so built into his kit now.
There's literally no way to make him a healbot. His new kit is fantastic, all they need to do is lower the numbers on the lightning shield a bit, and possibly reduce the shield at 13 to 10%.
Yep i think in general the changes were great and his identity revolving more around his w was a great move. In my mind he ends up in a hybrid role and enables comps that werent possible before. In terms of aoe healing they should make the difference between monk and him more apparent
I think if their goal is to have him hybrid it up they are on the right track design-wise
I think if their goal is to have him hybrid it up they are on the right track design-wise
I'm perplexed by what you are perplexed about. Though the trees are reworked, he will not be spec'd offensively if he cannot survive offensively.
If they hit his sustain, he can't do the shield build centered around himself. You can still pair him with a melee and possibly make it work but with him having further decreased healing that becomes far more risky. Beyond that, the complaints are mainly about Rehgar being too tanky and too in your face and not being able to keep himself alive will neuter that quickly.
If they hit his shield build, he'll just do a different build centered around utility. You'll take the totems or Tidal Waves or even a step back from Blood and Thunder over Cleanse and Farsight.
Either nerf effectively makes him a healbot again because there's no viable playstyle beyond doing what he already did. He'll just have a nerfed Feral Lunge to play with now in exchange compared to what he had before. It's also possible he ends up as a Tyrande style healer hybrid that may or may not be viable for regular players as I said above. Just depends on what and how hard they hit.
Actually what could work well (after a slight base dmg adjustment) is just reduced w dmg on self cast, in general w should be a support move cast on others and this way his waveclear needs two skills to be effective. Itd also directly parallel him w/ tass and make the kind of hero he is more intuitive.
@indig
The only real build w/ him right now as far as i can see is
1. W radius
2. W duration/feral
3. Cleanse/cd reduc on wolf
4. Ancestral
5. Tidal or shield
6. W damage
7. Storm or rewind
@indig
The only real build w/ him right now as far as i can see is
1. W radius
2. W duration/feral
3. Cleanse/cd reduc on wolf
4. Ancestral
5. Tidal or shield
6. W damage
7. Storm or rewind
This build and it's variations are all 60-70% winrate.
That would be an interesting implementation.
And by no means am I saying that he'll be trash after the nerfs (unless they really hit the heals). It's just he'll be a lesser version of what he was in his heyday with Illidan IMO. At least with Feral Lunge he'll be fun to play compared to "pick every Q talent" Rehgar, but for Blizzard it's a problem. If they had just added Feral Lunge baseline they'd be seen as heroes. Now that they will have to walk the other changes back the positive part will be forgotten by most.
He doesn't spec offensively currently - he only has one talent that directly increases his own DPS, which is the wolf lunge talent he can possibly take at 16 (which no-one does). His lightning shield is usually cast on someone else, especially after 16 when you get Rising Storm.
That's why I'm confused - his current winning spec involves him buffing other people to be better, whilst also contributing his own damage with feral lunge. Reducing the damage of his lightning shield doesn't change how *he* contributes at all - particulary if the nerf is only at 16 and the Rising Storm talent.
It's not possible to spec Rehgar into healing, or dps anymore. No matter what you do, he's going to be a melee support range healer contributing his own dps and his healing and the shield / totem. You can spec into different ways of emphasising that, but ultimately even if he didn't have a single lightning shield talent he'd still play exactly as he does now, only weaker. Nerfing lightning shield isn't going to stop im in any way biting people and contributing damage in that way.
I honestly think his current spec and talent design is some of the most elegant and well thought out in the game. I don't see the issue you have with it at all, and think he just needs a couple of numbers tweaks and he'll be great - he's extremely fun to play with feral lunge, has a lot to do, and literally cannot be a heal bot anymore unless you decide to ignore three quarters of his kit.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
He's got too much sustain now. No, they certainly can't make him a great healer if they leave his healing talents the way they are now, but I just figure either increasing the mana cost of everything or reducing his heal is the simplest way to drop his sustain without otherwise affecting his play style. I don't see more than minor damage tweaks to lightning shield making sense without basically having to rework him again. I don't think we're really that much in disagreement honestly. This new playstyle is great and what they wanted, but he flat-out should not be able to wreck things and heal both as effectively and efficiently at the same time as he can right now.
This sounds reasonable, or flat out make it unable to be cast on himself at all without taking the lvl 1 talent that casts it on him in tandem with another target, or unless you pick up the talent that allows it to give a shield. That way you lose range and if caught solo you can only use it on minions.
I think we're in absolute agreement - I love his rework, but think he's too strong. All he needs is numbers tweaks, and he would be a top tier pick for certain comps and a great hero to play. Which numbers they tweak is up to them.
I just don't get the idea of him becoming a healbot if they nerf him, or him not going into combat if they nerf him - because that's not how he is designed anymore. You can't spec for damage or healing except at precise tiers, and at those tiers that's ALL you can spec for so nerf one talent and another that fulfills the same role gets chosen instead. Assuming you are paired with a tank or melee dps, outside of the laning phase you're never even casting lightning shield on yourself anyways so nerfing it won't hurt him going in and biting someone on the bum as a doggy at all.
Which is the entire reason to play him...
I just don't get the idea of him becoming a healbot if they nerf him, or him not going into combat if they nerf him - because that's not how he is designed anymore. You can't spec for damage or healing except at precise tiers, and at those tiers that's ALL you can spec for so nerf one talent and another that fulfills the same role gets chosen instead. Assuming you are paired with a tank or melee dps, outside of the laning phase you're never even casting lightning shield on yourself anyways so nerfing it won't hurt him going in and biting someone on the bum as a doggy at all.
Which is the entire reason to play him...
Have you missed the part where everyone is talking about Rehgar trading and surviving with melee assassins and tanks? Or going in 1v3 and coming out alive while the enemy takes significant damage?
The issue is not in buffing others it's in what he can do to himself. He becomes too strong. That is why brian is suggesting reduced effectiveness of the shield when cast on self.
Yes it will. Did you play Rehgar pre nerf? Rehgar back in the Illidan synergy days?
One of the things I said in my thoughts on the patch was that now Rehgar does 30-45k damage per game when he used to do about 5-15k. Even when he had just lunge he'd maybe hit 20k unless you were very reckless.
If the shield build is nerfed, he will go right back to paltry damage and that is a big change. I don't quite understand how you do not see that. Feral Lunge isn't even the Lunge we had before, it's half the effectiveness. He'll still bite people's butts, sure, but what it does then versus what he's capable of right now (or was in the past) are most assuredly entirely different.
I agree. I don't know if you simply are just wanting to be contrary or I'm not expressing my opinion properly.
I said above that Rehgar right now is EXACTLY what everyone wanted from him from day one. And it's only that way because of his own massive sustain so it cannot stay that way. They either have to take the damage away or take the utility away because combined he is far stronger than any of his counterparts and arguably stronger than some non-healers as well.
I don't have any issue with it. I've said like three times now if they stopped at just giving him Feral Lunge people would've been like "GJ BLIZZ!!" But now they gave us the cake and let us eat it too and they will have to walk that back. And people who love to criticize their every move will have a field day when it happens and he's not as fun to play anymore.
I mean, honestly, Maledict. You've been in this thread for a long time decrying their balancing process or lack thereof and just the other day implied their gross incompetence...but you're telling me that you think Rehgar is going to walk out of this without his tail between his legs? How does that work? If his heals are hit he'll be a shell of himself. If the shield build is hit, he'll just go back to staying in the backline like he always has. Maybe he'll finish some kills with the nerfed Lunge, but not like he did last Spring. I'm not sure how you can argue that he will still be in the thick of it like he is right now if either of the two things (both OP) that make that work get nerfed.
See above. He can't be in the thick of it if he can't keep himself alive. He has no reason to be in the thick of it he can't do any damage. He's going to lose one or the other, so why would you risk that and not just stay in the backline and heal and buff your team? At that point I'll take Kharazim again anyday.
His heal getting hit more would be a good thing (im not talking about the numbers, i have no clue about that stuff, just thinking of it as a way of focusing his place when considering support picks), the design for him as i see it is meant to pack the majority of his use into his w. The previous iteration of rehgar was essentially "easier version of monk + easier to take cleanse" and reducing his q heal at least helps differentiate him further from monk.
In terms of healing rehgar should be generalized; access to both aoe and burst healing but not as good as ppl who can focus on it (tass, uther, etc.), i think the right mix of having poor cc and utility (all he has is a slow + chasedown, no vision) + good but not best healing options, coupled with a comp-allowing w is a really great way of introducing a new support into the mix, it's thematic, it has clear weaknesses via peel and kiting, and i would say it's a sneaky way of introducing a kit that works best with another support
In terms of healing rehgar should be generalized; access to both aoe and burst healing but not as good as ppl who can focus on it (tass, uther, etc.), i think the right mix of having poor cc and utility (all he has is a slow + chasedown, no vision) + good but not best healing options, coupled with a comp-allowing w is a really great way of introducing a new support into the mix, it's thematic, it has clear weaknesses via peel and kiting, and i would say it's a sneaky way of introducing a kit that works best with another support
That is my fear, though. A support that needs another support is just one more headache in the big headache that is QM. Not something I'm personally interested in as someone who plays mainly QM.
I'd prefer he be able to maintain as is and mix it up in melee and be active, but unlike Maledict I don't see how you do that without the tremendous damage output and healing both. Finishing kills with Feral Lunge (though the target will need to be lower health than before) will be fun again if he's forced back into the backline, but if he's just a secondary support at best I'll not play him again.
EDIT: LOL TLV on free rotation. Li-Ming's are at full mast.
I'd prefer he be able to maintain as is and mix it up in melee and be active, but unlike Maledict I don't see how you do that without the tremendous damage output and healing both. Finishing kills with Feral Lunge (though the target will need to be lower health than before) will be fun again if he's forced back into the backline, but if he's just a secondary support at best I'll not play him again.
EDIT: LOL TLV on free rotation. Li-Ming's are at full mast.
Because right now I'm going into combat with Rehgar and the shield isn't cast on me. So nerfing the shield won't change that at all? It will lower my absolute damage contribution, and the effectiveness with melee assassins and tanks, but it won't change what I do in fights in fights. I can say with confidence that I would still have exactly the same number of kills on him as I do now (which is a lot, which feels odd but fun!).
Re balancing, we'll see. Sometimes they balance really well with small changes, sometimes they go overboard. Tyrande versus Stitches for example... ;-) . And re incompetence, I think the *vast* majority of what they do is brilliant. I absolutely love Greymane at the moment, for example - think he's wonderfully designed in every way, and great fun to play even though he's not my usual type of character at all. My issue is with their development team who keep signing off on things which are plain stupid - I think their designers are top notch. I think they have a small flaw in their production pipeline which keeps letting really dumb things get out that should have been caught instantly - and were caught instantly on release by the general public. given their development team is possibly all of 4 people, out of the 200 or so working on the game, it's a very small number who keep making dumb mistakes!
I do think he needs nerfing so he doesn't do that much damage when trading blows with people early on. I do think they probably need to reduce the effctiveness of chain heal early on a bit. But I don't think those small numbers changes will affect how he plays at all, and I just don't get why you would think it will turn him into a back rank healer. Maybe we're playing him very differently, but I'm just not casting lightning shield on myself, and I really, really don't think they will touch his personal auto attack dps.
We probably are just talking at cross-purposes here and meaning the same thing, I guess I'm just a bit more positive (for once! ;-)) about how this will all play out. Unless they really slam his numbers into the ground, I think he'll see play and be viable after the nerf hits. You say that a melee range healer needs a lot to support him, and yet Kharazim see splay all the time in the middle of combat, and he has less health than rehgar and doesn't bite people on the bum. He doesn't have tremendous damage or healing (equal healing, lower damage, no CC than Rehgar currently) and he's an extremely popular pick after all.
Re balancing, we'll see. Sometimes they balance really well with small changes, sometimes they go overboard. Tyrande versus Stitches for example... ;-) . And re incompetence, I think the *vast* majority of what they do is brilliant. I absolutely love Greymane at the moment, for example - think he's wonderfully designed in every way, and great fun to play even though he's not my usual type of character at all. My issue is with their development team who keep signing off on things which are plain stupid - I think their designers are top notch. I think they have a small flaw in their production pipeline which keeps letting really dumb things get out that should have been caught instantly - and were caught instantly on release by the general public. given their development team is possibly all of 4 people, out of the 200 or so working on the game, it's a very small number who keep making dumb mistakes!
I do think he needs nerfing so he doesn't do that much damage when trading blows with people early on. I do think they probably need to reduce the effctiveness of chain heal early on a bit. But I don't think those small numbers changes will affect how he plays at all, and I just don't get why you would think it will turn him into a back rank healer. Maybe we're playing him very differently, but I'm just not casting lightning shield on myself, and I really, really don't think they will touch his personal auto attack dps.
We probably are just talking at cross-purposes here and meaning the same thing, I guess I'm just a bit more positive (for once! ;-)) about how this will all play out. Unless they really slam his numbers into the ground, I think he'll see play and be viable after the nerf hits. You say that a melee range healer needs a lot to support him, and yet Kharazim see splay all the time in the middle of combat, and he has less health than rehgar and doesn't bite people on the bum. He doesn't have tremendous damage or healing (equal healing, lower damage, no CC than Rehgar currently) and he's an extremely popular pick after all.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Played vikings once and never again.
Li Ming gradually bringing me back to 2k MMR after a major loss streak a month or so ago and already my 3rd most played hero.
Li Ming gradually bringing me back to 2k MMR after a major loss streak a month or so ago and already my 3rd most played hero.
Oh gods - no Quick Match for me this week!
I guess my question for you would be this: If you're not occasionally shielding yourself or using the double shield, why are you in the middle of the fight now but you weren't pre-buff or even last Spring? I don't really see a reason to be there if the damage isn't there. Maybe you personally were, but that's not the way the majority of Rehgar's have ever played.
Rehgar's weren't there before when he was Q focused. They weren't there before when his feral lunge was an auto pick and did even more damage. So why now if the damage or healing gets nerfed?
I don't see what the tradeoff is. You're at a huge risk for dying cause you have no CC or mitigation and you aren't really doing much damage anyway, so why not play in the backline like before?
EDIT: Also lol, this is the best non-English name ever: Der Schlächter. Should change Butcher's name to that permanently IMO.
Rehgar's weren't there before when he was Q focused. They weren't there before when his feral lunge was an auto pick and did even more damage. So why now if the damage or healing gets nerfed?
I don't see what the tradeoff is. You're at a huge risk for dying cause you have no CC or mitigation and you aren't really doing much damage anyway, so why not play in the backline like before?
EDIT: Also lol, this is the best non-English name ever: Der Schlächter. Should change Butcher's name to that permanently IMO.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'd prefer Metzger, Schlächter is so generic.
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