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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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The issue is the stealth. The sniper / boom headshot archtype is fine, every game has it as you say - but no other game is silly enough to try and include stealth as part of that kit. Even though the stealth isn't a proper stealth, it's enough to make people rage when it happens to them and to add an element of complete "that's unfair!" to Nova.
Look at sniper in Dota 2 for example - in many respects his kit is even more egregious for long range sniping and kills. but the fact you can always see him, and always know where he is, means he is no where near as frustrating as Nova.
fanfic nova
q mark target + minimal dmg
w lockdown (low dura root I guess)
e dash + folllow through on next shot
r nukez
d stealth, drains mana
+ good interesting talents for all 4 skills
there i fixed nova
I actually thought the previous iteration of nova was fine, just give her something more difficult to stack than gp
if you inception the idea that she needs skill to reach her full potential ppl would probably complain less, snipe master isnt that tho
im pretty into all the chogall showing up in tourneys, also now that lunara is gotlike looks like raynor bro is gone (all depends on what shows up in this meta ofc)
love that rehgar changes = cant have rehgar and chogall on the same team
mac solo q tierlist overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZhQdsFWB_k&feature=youtu.be
greymane/lunara tier onnnne, aram makes me gold poor tho
q mark target + minimal dmg
w lockdown (low dura root I guess)
e dash + folllow through on next shot
r nukez
d stealth, drains mana
+ good interesting talents for all 4 skills
there i fixed nova
I actually thought the previous iteration of nova was fine, just give her something more difficult to stack than gp
if you inception the idea that she needs skill to reach her full potential ppl would probably complain less, snipe master isnt that tho
im pretty into all the chogall showing up in tourneys, also now that lunara is gotlike looks like raynor bro is gone (all depends on what shows up in this meta ofc)
love that rehgar changes = cant have rehgar and chogall on the same team
mac solo q tierlist overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZhQdsFWB_k&feature=youtu.be
greymane/lunara tier onnnne, aram makes me gold poor tho
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Triple Tap should be blockable but they maybe shouldn't announce and telegraph the first shot.
Other option would be longer windup more obvious announcement.
I also liked Nova when I started despite losing with her constantly. She just feels empowering, even though she was bad when I started.
Instead of moving on I just went with Zeratul instead and still lost the majority of games. My winrate with him is still only slightly above 50% because of that.
Bloodlust worked once when I played with a Rehgar and that wasn't because of it we just bodied that team. Seeing it used just annoys me when the green beam instead of the red would be so much more useful.
Anyone tried teleport build w/o dominance? I'm starting to move away from reduced CD at 1. It's useful for boss/camps, running away and engaging but during close fights it's barely in effect.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
When can I get this? When do I need to watch it?Get yourself a portrait for watching the Spring NA Regionals: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/blog/20030155/north-american-spring-regionals-in-los-angeles-2-5-2016
EDIT: Srey doesn't use quick cast? And he's streaming.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Lol someone visualized EU roster changes.
Zarmony outra Dig so it's just Bakery now. With all the roster changes Liquid is my team to root for now.
Zarmony outra Dig so it's just Bakery now. With all the roster changes Liquid is my team to root for now.
No sir. They can get rid of Arth though.
The link is in the post breh.
Why won't you guys let me play with you? (╥_╥
Get on dat NA ARAM hype train. That's where most everyone spends the majority of their time.
In other news, the Rehgar experience is in full swing. 13-4 in QM over the last three days. 9-2 with Rehgar + Li-Ming. One loss was a comp loss, another a throw.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Another pet peeve, people dying at 20. I don't understand what is so difficult to not be reckless when a death will mean a minute of downtime. A minute where you can't take any teamfights. Worse even when they move outside the safe zone when defending. Just don't you're not rambo.
Wait, what happened to Snitch? He played last week. Dig gotta feel awful picking that team up and then this happened.
Who are you?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Snitch is and has always been there, Zarmony got cut again. Someone was subbing for him 1 day and everyone has been losing their mind since.
Kinda coming around on the W build for Li MIng now. It's really good.
Yeah I kinda like the top build on hotslogs aside from the 20 talent
1- mana
4- ass of Johanna
7- seeker
10- disin
13- glass cannon
16- mirror ball
20- 60% slow
Idk I'm torn. Went on a good tear with it today, but I feel like e dmg is a no brainer. Turn a non-damage spell into damage.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I still go with the increased teleport range on 13, let's me do more dumb shit that's really fun and the 20% ability power on 20. I usually cancel disintegrate early anyway.
Also guys you gotta try this shit on cursed hollow, the first well 50 seconds into the game... Dunno why they didn't stop me.
Edit: Also works on towers of doom mid.
questionmark
Member
I'm Cybaslasher :/
Wait, what?
Never knew that either, haha. So confusing when people's names are different.
RumblingRosco
Member
What the fuck.
That seems completely normal. Nothing to see here.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
did the orb take stitches down to 25% by itself? Seems legit
Ed: nvm missiles too, whew. 2 spells to take down a tank is much more reasonable :-|
Ed: nvm missiles too, whew. 2 spells to take down a tank is much more reasonable :-|
I will say, Arcane Orb is a lot easier to hit than they described before release. Because it gets bigger as it goes it's actually hard to avoid if your a class without a vault etc. Certainly a lot of other skill shots are harder to land (Anub'araks spikes, Falstad's hammer, etc).
Even without Ess of Johan it's a very powerful, easy to land skill shot that hits like a freaking truck.
Even without Ess of Johan it's a very powerful, easy to land skill shot that hits like a freaking truck.
RumblingRosco
Member
Pretty insane that it's a low cooldown, high damage, large radius, decent range, hitbox-increasing skillshot that can be specced into to pull people closer and interrupt channeling. It could practically be a low cooldown heroic and people would probably think it is fine.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
plz summarize
brickwalker0
Member
actually it can work in her favor if it detonates on a minion and the blast radius hits the hero.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You can do some nasty really flanks with her.
I wonder why they didn't release Xul then Li Ming, him being a melee specia'ist will mean she'll probably murder him unless she's nerfed
racketpunch
Member
I just grabbed Li Ming and a little confused about the popular Calamity talent. Aside from peeling and having no choice, when would I ever want to teleport into an enemy?
Sothis Krieg
Member
I think the idea is "poke poke poke" and then TP in to finish and then TP out. But i dont know i haven't played her yet.
Is there a chance Rehgar is allowed to remain at this level until Xul is released specifically to compliment him? With melee typically being underwhelming on release, his Cursed Strike and Bone Prison could become insane with Rehgar as a wing man for a few weeks. Improve the early perspective on him at least.
Has Browder tweeted about Rehgar yet?
Has Browder tweeted about Rehgar yet?
We haven't heard a peep though. And it's not like people haven't been blowing him up about it.
The odds were always against Xul being as relevant as we'd like simply because of the melee classification unless he is more overtuned than Li-Ming is...which we really can't know til we see it in action.
Having Lightning Shield OpieOP to push him over the edge and synergize as Rehgar's "new" Illidan would let them put him out and give them leeway to observe and then react to however Xul is utilized.
We'll have a small balance patch before then so Rehgar could be RIP by then for sure, but it's intriguing to me that the whole thing w/ Rehgar is not unintentional and is instead a counterbalance to the two new heroes until they see how they play in the wild.
It's all conjecture, of course, but to me it seems more plausible as them being completely clueless that Rehgar would be this OP.
The odds were always against Xul being as relevant as we'd like simply because of the melee classification unless he is more overtuned than Li-Ming is...which we really can't know til we see it in action.
Having Lightning Shield OpieOP to push him over the edge and synergize as Rehgar's "new" Illidan would let them put him out and give them leeway to observe and then react to however Xul is utilized.
We'll have a small balance patch before then so Rehgar could be RIP by then for sure, but it's intriguing to me that the whole thing w/ Rehgar is not unintentional and is instead a counterbalance to the two new heroes until they see how they play in the wild.
It's all conjecture, of course, but to me it seems more plausible as them being completely clueless that Rehgar would be this OP.
They created Ess of Johan, on a character with no CC and hard to hit skill shots. Given the repeated mess-ups we've had with heroes over the last six months, I think it's far more likely to be incompetence than some grand plan. These are the people who thought that Rexxar was fun to play with the original controls, or that Lunara was a powerful hero.
I just can't buy that Rehgar is deliberate when every other hero has been messed up due to poor development (in some cases, blindly obvious mistakes even more so than Rehgar).
I just can't buy that Rehgar is deliberate when every other hero has been messed up due to poor development (in some cases, blindly obvious mistakes even more so than Rehgar).
Let me say I absolutely love that they've picked up the pace on balancing and whatnot, but...
I really wish they would stop being stubborn about what goes from ptr to live. I don't understand why they are so afraid to make changes. Does the ptr only exsist to make sure things are working correctly? Rehgar and Li-Ming were widely regarded as being OPAF before they even hit live, and they did nothing to address it.
I really wish they would stop being stubborn about what goes from ptr to live. I don't understand why they are so afraid to make changes. Does the ptr only exsist to make sure things are working correctly? Rehgar and Li-Ming were widely regarded as being OPAF before they even hit live, and they did nothing to address it.
PTR is bug catching, they don't have enough time to fix them.
I don't get how some of these things hit test to be frank. Rehgar in particular - we loaded a game versus AI out of curiosity, and 10 minutes later were wondering why Rehgar had the highest siege damage on our team and the highest number of kills. It's hardly a subtle, hidden interaction between talents - pick every Lightning shield talent, win!
I know it sounds awful, but after Dustin Browder said he was a rank 20 player I'm left wondering if the reason we see this stuff is simply because they don't have the internal players to adequately test it. But I can't imagine that's the case given Trikslyr etc also play heavily in and out of work.
Still think they need a private PTR for pros, invite only.
I think you're greatly exaggerating every hero "being messed up". Heroes have had issues, certainly, but I agree with kirblar that it has as much to do with the schedule as it does anything else. At the very least, you acting like this is a recent thing is disingenuous. There have been issues with basically every hero released.
That each hero comes out and has something hackneyed or soft/OP about them is hardly news. That's kind of how it works in my experience from virtually every game ever. I don't know that it should be called incompetence. Much like anything, they can only anticipate what we'll do with it and gamers by nature break things and once they do they only utilize the one broken aspect by and large while ignoring everything else.
Right before the start/at the start of the three week cycle, Sylvanas was OP. Blowing up creep waves, more damage than now, etc. You could argue her Cold Embrace is still stupid OP. Then KT came out and he was the most OP hero on release we've seen to this point. He's still one of the strongest in the game despite repeated nerfs. Johanna was also OP when her Condemn basically functioned as a planet's center of gravity, among other things including longer stun on her shield ult, but was panned when release. Leoric was also panned when released, but people quickly figured out he was not only OP with his respawn leading to cheese w/ Abathur, but that his general use as an actual hero was also very strong.
Kharazim came out and was shunned because his damage sucked, but it turned out he was actually good. And eventually got a damage buff. Then came Rexxar with his buggy Misha which was fixed within 2-3 weeks as I recall with the "1" button. He was never going to be more than a niche hero, however. Morales dropped and her health pool and survivability was too small. They gave her a slight tweak there and she sees play and was even regarded by some as OP less than a month ago. Artanis came next and his kit was questionable at best and his melee range was bugged. They've tweaked him several times and while many (including me) put him in the dumpster, people like Trikslyr swear by him. He's very much a Gazlowe kind of hero but for the bruiser role.
Cho'Gall dropped and he just is what he is. Fun to play and though in theory very strong he requires too much from your team to see a lot of play for folks like us. Lunara came next and had bugged attack animations, low health, and basically Nazeebo's damage without the utility. She's since been fixed in every aspect but the wisp and is now relevant at most every level of play. Greymane was next and there wasn't much of an issue He just suffers the melee fate, but thankfully can persist as ranged poke. And they went and made that poke even more viable. Now we have Li-Ming who is very strong. Bar issues with the orb pull or Disintegrate, she's still not at the obnoxious level KT or Sylv were in their heyday. She'll get those things fixed and just slot right in.
I doubt there's a hero released in any MOBA that doesn't have shit like this happen. It's part of the job. Every single one of the heroes released has some kind of issue - whether too strong or too weak or with a bug - acting like it's a recent thing is not very genuine. Either they've been incompetent all along, or they are developing a very fluid thing that will always require more hands-on testing than they can ever perform in house. And kit reworks are basically the same thing though I would agree those are less forgivable.
EDIT: And I'm not defending their releases or their patches. I'm just saying if you think it's bad now it's always been like this for whatever reason. If you have issue with it currently then you also should've had an issue last summer and the winter before that. Also, something is always OP and something is always UP and I think that is something that is largely forgotten on the internet in these discussions.
That each hero comes out and has something hackneyed or soft/OP about them is hardly news. That's kind of how it works in my experience from virtually every game ever. I don't know that it should be called incompetence. Much like anything, they can only anticipate what we'll do with it and gamers by nature break things and once they do they only utilize the one broken aspect by and large while ignoring everything else.
Right before the start/at the start of the three week cycle, Sylvanas was OP. Blowing up creep waves, more damage than now, etc. You could argue her Cold Embrace is still stupid OP. Then KT came out and he was the most OP hero on release we've seen to this point. He's still one of the strongest in the game despite repeated nerfs. Johanna was also OP when her Condemn basically functioned as a planet's center of gravity, among other things including longer stun on her shield ult, but was panned when release. Leoric was also panned when released, but people quickly figured out he was not only OP with his respawn leading to cheese w/ Abathur, but that his general use as an actual hero was also very strong.
Kharazim came out and was shunned because his damage sucked, but it turned out he was actually good. And eventually got a damage buff. Then came Rexxar with his buggy Misha which was fixed within 2-3 weeks as I recall with the "1" button. He was never going to be more than a niche hero, however. Morales dropped and her health pool and survivability was too small. They gave her a slight tweak there and she sees play and was even regarded by some as OP less than a month ago. Artanis came next and his kit was questionable at best and his melee range was bugged. They've tweaked him several times and while many (including me) put him in the dumpster, people like Trikslyr swear by him. He's very much a Gazlowe kind of hero but for the bruiser role.
Cho'Gall dropped and he just is what he is. Fun to play and though in theory very strong he requires too much from your team to see a lot of play for folks like us. Lunara came next and had bugged attack animations, low health, and basically Nazeebo's damage without the utility. She's since been fixed in every aspect but the wisp and is now relevant at most every level of play. Greymane was next and there wasn't much of an issue He just suffers the melee fate, but thankfully can persist as ranged poke. And they went and made that poke even more viable. Now we have Li-Ming who is very strong. Bar issues with the orb pull or Disintegrate, she's still not at the obnoxious level KT or Sylv were in their heyday. She'll get those things fixed and just slot right in.
I doubt there's a hero released in any MOBA that doesn't have shit like this happen. It's part of the job. Every single one of the heroes released has some kind of issue - whether too strong or too weak or with a bug - acting like it's a recent thing is not very genuine. Either they've been incompetent all along, or they are developing a very fluid thing that will always require more hands-on testing than they can ever perform in house. And kit reworks are basically the same thing though I would agree those are less forgivable.
EDIT: And I'm not defending their releases or their patches. I'm just saying if you think it's bad now it's always been like this for whatever reason. If you have issue with it currently then you also should've had an issue last summer and the winter before that. Also, something is always OP and something is always UP and I think that is something that is largely forgotten on the internet in these discussions.
Um, I've not been acting this is recent - 6 months isn't recent! ;-)
And re fixes and balance, I'll just refer to my earlier post. Balance issues will occur with every hero - absolutely agree. Numbers always need a bit of tuning, you can never get them perfect on release.
But what we've seen is things that are so egregiously *wrong* you cannot help but wonder what's going on. Anyone, *anyone* playing Lunara instantly recognised she felt dreadful because of her auto attacks. Rexxar's controls are the same. Ess of Johan.
There's a difference between slight numbers tweaks and balance changes, and things which are self evidently just broken from the moment you pick them up, be they over or underpowered. And re gamers breaking things - Rehgars current OP build just picks every lightning shield talent. We're hardly talking MTG level combo's here, the build is laid out for you as soon as you start and its shocking how high damage it is (pun!).
I'm just curious as to what's going on that's leading to such massive imbalances going through the door. Numbers fixes etc are easy to understand, but these huge things are more perplexing. Hopefully this wednesday we'll see the impact of their frequent balance change patches.
EDIT: On a more positive note, what fixes does everyone think they should be implementing for heroes currently?
And re fixes and balance, I'll just refer to my earlier post. Balance issues will occur with every hero - absolutely agree. Numbers always need a bit of tuning, you can never get them perfect on release.
But what we've seen is things that are so egregiously *wrong* you cannot help but wonder what's going on. Anyone, *anyone* playing Lunara instantly recognised she felt dreadful because of her auto attacks. Rexxar's controls are the same. Ess of Johan.
There's a difference between slight numbers tweaks and balance changes, and things which are self evidently just broken from the moment you pick them up, be they over or underpowered. And re gamers breaking things - Rehgars current OP build just picks every lightning shield talent. We're hardly talking MTG level combo's here, the build is laid out for you as soon as you start and its shocking how high damage it is (pun!).
I'm just curious as to what's going on that's leading to such massive imbalances going through the door. Numbers fixes etc are easy to understand, but these huge things are more perplexing. Hopefully this wednesday we'll see the impact of their frequent balance change patches.
EDIT: On a more positive note, what fixes does everyone think they should be implementing for heroes currently?
And my argument is exactly what you're disregarding. They've committed to 3 week windows to push this shit out the door or we, the people, get the pitchforks. That's their way of keeping us interested and invested and spending money.
They not only do that for us but also for themselves to GENERATE money.
To think that such a strict schedule - basically unprecedented in this space - is not going to harm the development of some heroes does not make sense to me.
Because an auto attack animation is a little wonky you think that's an egregious oversight that they couldn't foresee? My point is most of these issues are fixed within a few scant weeks...clearly they already knew it might be a problem before hand but they must keep the schedule or get murdered on the forums/reddit worse than they do for a UP hero.
EDIT: It just seems like your argument is the same as the one pro players have for matchmaking. "Give us longer queue times so we can get better games", and your development argument seems to have you wanting them to "Spend more time in development so that the hero is near perfect on release because I don't want any bugs whatsoever to interefere with the gameplay." And that is fine, I just don't think it's going to happen or is realistic.
They not only do that for us but also for themselves to GENERATE money.
To think that such a strict schedule - basically unprecedented in this space - is not going to harm the development of some heroes does not make sense to me.
Because an auto attack animation is a little wonky you think that's an egregious oversight that they couldn't foresee? My point is most of these issues are fixed within a few scant weeks...clearly they already knew it might be a problem before hand but they must keep the schedule or get murdered on the forums/reddit worse than they do for a UP hero.
EDIT: It just seems like your argument is the same as the one pro players have for matchmaking. "Give us longer queue times so we can get better games", and your development argument seems to have you wanting them to "Spend more time in development so that the hero is near perfect on release because I don't want any bugs whatsoever to interefere with the gameplay." And that is fine, I just don't think it's going to happen or is realistic.
I don't think development time would help - I'm not asking for them to stay in the oven longer. I think the sort of things that we've been seeing coming out of them over the last 6 months are things that are so obviously wrong, that if you don't spot it then another few weeks won't help.
I want them to replicate other games, set up a private, invite only PTR, invite some of the best players in the game, and let them go to with the new heroes and patches. I think the fault in their process isn't the speed they are working at - it's that they don't have an outside perspective telling them things.
And I think it's a bit unfair to call Lunara's auto attack "A bit wonky" - the character was flat out broken on release. If you were in melee range she couldn't AA, and her movement animation completely desynced her auto attacks where it simply wasn't fun to play her. To quote THH - "Lunara is utter cancer on the game because she's so unfun to play with". It's that sort of thing that I think they need - they need an outside perspective testing stuff for them. Because they just aren't picking this stuff up internally, and whilst we can all forgive heroes being slightly under or overtuned, some of the recent stuff has just been head scratchingly obvious.
EDIT: Didn't League release a new hero every two weeks when it started out - from my understand they really struggled with balance as well. They are caught between a rock and a hard place honestly, as the game needs a larger hero pool and they need the income from newer heroes.
I want them to replicate other games, set up a private, invite only PTR, invite some of the best players in the game, and let them go to with the new heroes and patches. I think the fault in their process isn't the speed they are working at - it's that they don't have an outside perspective telling them things.
And I think it's a bit unfair to call Lunara's auto attack "A bit wonky" - the character was flat out broken on release. If you were in melee range she couldn't AA, and her movement animation completely desynced her auto attacks where it simply wasn't fun to play her. To quote THH - "Lunara is utter cancer on the game because she's so unfun to play with". It's that sort of thing that I think they need - they need an outside perspective testing stuff for them. Because they just aren't picking this stuff up internally, and whilst we can all forgive heroes being slightly under or overtuned, some of the recent stuff has just been head scratchingly obvious.
EDIT: Didn't League release a new hero every two weeks when it started out - from my understand they really struggled with balance as well. They are caught between a rock and a hard place honestly, as the game needs a larger hero pool and they need the income from newer heroes.
I honestly don't see how inviting pros to test is going to do much better either. There's probably not 100 top level pro players to begin with and very few streamers. You'd have to coordinate times, and then what incentive do they even have to do that anyway? They already play the game 5-8 hours a day as is and most of them are uninterested in playing otherwise. Probably less so if they didn't know the patch was gonna stay the same.
If the playerbase was larger like League, sure, but I just can't see that as anything that would do much of anything with the few people we've got. Maybe with them interacting with the players and devs they already have testing...but still.
THH did call "Lunara is utter cancer on the game because she's so unfun to play with" but people here on this forum and elsewhere were absolutely loving her playstyle and having fun playing her...it just sucked that she sucked. It's hardly the first time Zoia or another has been over the top about something constructive or detrimental. Arthelon was basically calling her trash still on Wednesday.
I dunno what League did at release, I'm only aware of anything in the last two years or so "unprecedented" may be a little off-base but it's certainly unprecedented right now. The only MOBA releasing content at even close to this rate is Vainglory and that is on mobile. Like you said though, if they did I'm sure they suffered from the same problems.
I really think you are over emphasizing the severity (or avoidability) of some of these issues on this schedule. I'm not arguing that it doesn't suck and I wish they did better, but calling them incompetent seems pretty harsh.
If the playerbase was larger like League, sure, but I just can't see that as anything that would do much of anything with the few people we've got. Maybe with them interacting with the players and devs they already have testing...but still.
THH did call "Lunara is utter cancer on the game because she's so unfun to play with" but people here on this forum and elsewhere were absolutely loving her playstyle and having fun playing her...it just sucked that she sucked. It's hardly the first time Zoia or another has been over the top about something constructive or detrimental. Arthelon was basically calling her trash still on Wednesday.
I dunno what League did at release, I'm only aware of anything in the last two years or so "unprecedented" may be a little off-base but it's certainly unprecedented right now. The only MOBA releasing content at even close to this rate is Vainglory and that is on mobile. Like you said though, if they did I'm sure they suffered from the same problems.
I really think you are over emphasizing the severity (or avoidability) of some of these issues on this schedule. I'm not arguing that it doesn't suck and I wish they did better, but calling them incompetent seems pretty harsh.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
CoG vs Resurgence 34 minute game
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