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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
I build around blizzard and I think it's good. I don't know how the frostbolt build is
scoobs
Member
Oh I'm not saying its a good talent choice, just making the argument for why he has it
Oh I'm not saying its a good talent choice, just making the argument for why he has it
Haha fair enough. I wish they would buff him. I really enjoy playing him, but Lunara does it better right now.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Random question. How long did it take for people doing f2p to unlock ranked? How long to get 30 and how long to afford 10 chars?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
~A week
Had one of those games last night. You know the ones - you solo queue and end up with two teams of 2 that won't stop bitching at each other, and want to leave you as Morales, to be in a lane solo. The first 3 dragon knights are taken by the enemy team, and we're behind 2 levels. But then, something miraculous happened. The team stopped complaining and started working together, and we came back, and crushed them.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Level 30 and 10 chars bought with gold in a week.. Playing how many hours a day.. Is this even possible even if you got all the free week char gold..
Maybe I'm missing something but I have level 24, two chars bought totaling 17k and 15k gold now after about a month of play, an hour a day. I'm just doing the math, I've probably been playing for ~9 months now at about 2-3 hours a week so I'd guess that's a solid month of play?
The only way I could see having 10 chars is buying all the 2k heroes or using money if you play casually like me.
i think the two characters totalling 17k gold is where you went wrong. You can get a bunch of really good heroes for super cheap gold prices
edit:
yes exactly
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I've had 2 weird games recently where both times for some reason I was being called out for whatever reason, once I actually found it hilarious since someone said he was gonna compare rank after the game. I go into a bush to respond saying how much I don't give a fuck, haven't finished my placements even, and meanwhile my team goes in and starts a fight and wipe within 3 seconds.
The game right afterwards a Thrall told me not to play Li Ming, then goes and runs into a fort at barely any health and dies. KT also complained that I was recapturing a fort when we were down lvl 20 against our opponents against a triple altar all the while standing next to an activating altar for ~20 seconds neither soaking nor helping me recapture. I won't pretend I'm some amazing player that's above his MMR but I played Li Ming in 60+ games in a little bit more than a week at a higher than average winrate with her, she's one of the few heroes I'd argue I know what I'm doing with.
The next 2 games were amazing even when we fucked up we were having fun and typing shit.
You get enough gold within getting to 30 and getting a bunch of heroes to lvl 5 you should be able to afford 10 of the low cost heroes. I think I even got Zeratul at 10k fairly quickly.
Sometimes I feel like there's this huge social engineering aspect to the game, where saying the wrong thing the wrong way once will just ignite an argument and cause the team to throw. But if you can say just the right things the right way, people play better. A couple of 'nice one' or 'gj' comments after a good early objective or team fight and people seem to play better for the rest of the match.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Yeah but even putting the gold aside, I have probably a 50% win rate over the 9 months and still am at only level 24. Level 30 in a week has to be like playing 8 hours a day at a similar win rate.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Oh yeah that helps a ton but these games I was just laning early game and we fall behind and somehow it was my fault now. I wasn't ignoring objectives nor was I dying non stop. I didn't have any picks yet but that's fairly difficult solo with Li Ming pre 7/10. Really caught me off guard.
I've really become confident with Li Ming, she's very empowering.
Bad habit of mine is asking my teammates what an overextension or other stupid act was trying to accomplish.
Don't you get a Stim drone at lvl 10 or so now? When I started playing there was also an XP event so that might skew the numbers.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I believe you're right, I remember that helping a lot the first week. I might buy that $5 pack with the 3 chars and stim to finish up. That's pennies at this point.
Yeah, positivity can only go so far. And once blame starts going around in games like those, it's usually too late. Can't be helped.
On a side note, anyone else hoping Xul could be a bit of a counter to Li-Ming? Just thinking that if everytime she takes a shot with her Q or W and there's a skeleton to take the hit instead of a player, it could mitigate a fair amount of her damage.
100% into this
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Doubt it, Zagara already has that and she's only a minor annoyance. Unless they nerf Ess of Johan with his release it will hit him either way since that talent is busted.
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like he will almost always have 4 skeletons out in front of him (and I'm going to guess there will be a talent to get a couple more), so he'll probably have more of an effect than Zagara, but it probably won't be enough. And I have to believe Ess of Johan is just going to be straight up removed.
After Xul, as much as there are certain heroes I'd really like to see (Guldan, Kel'Thuzad), maybe it's time for another super tanky warrior. We had a fair number of warriors added a while back, but most of them have been bruisers rather than solo tanks.
Well, I wouldn't say 8 hours a day for sure. Probably 5-10 games per day and yeah, like you all said, you get a free stimpack now just for RAF so that helps a lot. Also free Sylvanas and Raynor? Or is it just Sylvanas?
This'll do it every time. Most of us are guilty. If you do it often though you will certainly have a bad time cause it accomplishes nothing but embarrassment.
I still maintain my theory that part of the Rehgar buff coming out of the blue when it did to was counterbalance for Xul's release. He's supposed to be a very tanky specialist who is in the the thick of things...Rehgar's current viability adds to his damage and survival. They appear to be sympatico. Without him (all of this IMO), Xul runs the very real risk of being feed and fodder for Li-Ming and the mage cadre.
IMO they should go with another mage or well-tuned assassin to continue diversifying the meta. It's the one archetype we see the biggest dropoff in from "top tier" to "good" and whether people are willing to play those other heroes. Anything to break up the current mages in every game is something I'm for, even if it's just different mages for now.
We actually need more mages. Like - lots of mages. . The game is really oddly lacking in that arch type. It's one of the reasons Kael has always been so popular - yes, he's very powerful, but also people freaking love mages, and fire mages in particular. Other games have multiple characters with that arch type.
Mages are always hugely popular, and they could do with adding a few more in.
Mages are always hugely popular, and they could do with adding a few more in.
IDK, I'd kind of prefer if they kept it that way... once you get an obvious solo tanking hero, like muradin then it kind of makes him too powerful... if you've got a lot of "almost good enough to solo tank" warriors then you get a lot more options in drafts...
what I'd like to see more of but will probably never happen again are more "half supports" similar to tyrande/tassadar..
I like the idea of Xul as a melee specialist, but I feel like he's gonna go the way of Gazlowe and just be super shitty... but I still feel like that's what the game needs, more heroes that don't fit into the defined roles of: range/melee assassin, solo support, solo warrior.
for instance a specialist/support that just buffs and debuffs things like attack or movement speed, damage resistance, and gives vision... Like imagine if you had a hero whose basic abilities were just like: wards, drums of edurance, and mechanism from dota. then give him bounty hunters track and wisps teleport.
Kind of interesting how they've avoided it despite the overwhelming popularity and it's not like they don't have plenty of places they can go with hero choices. I would assume there is some grand plan to that, but if any picks need diversifying IMO it's those so you'd think they'd hammer out two or three heroes in that vein just like they did warriors a while back.
And I'm still waiting to see who the tank that was potentially going to be turned into a specialist was unless I missed that. Rexxar being moved to specialist would do wonders for his pick rate in QM I think. Also could've been Xul I suppose since they want him to be tanky though I don't know that it fits the lore.
It just feels like with such a small choice in tanks, they're the most boring part of any draft. Muradin fits into almost any comp as the solo tank, and rarely gets banned.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Do we know if the skeletons have a timer? Lategame or during extended fights you probably won't find time to kill minions. Ess of Johan should either be moved to a more critical tier though I can't currently picture 1 where you'd still not take it or removed altogether.
I want a Gnome, Milhouse for instance.
Yeah don't even think I've ever gotten an actual response. Constructive advice will get a team of randos much further.
If that were the case they'd have released Xul first though, Rehgar is no counter to Li Ming from my experience. She bursts faster than he heals, it's outright ridiculous. You can get from 1 to 4 kills almost singlehandedly with the same rotation on repeat w/ a single bar of mana.
Aside from that I feel like all but assassins are in a good spot, leaving Rehgar and specialists aside.
I'd be fine if they only made specialists rarely but if they do they reserve it for gimmicky heroes that just won't fit other criteria.
I agree, but I think that's because muradin is too good at solo tanking, not because the other warriors are bad... like to me seeing a stitches + leoric being the mega HP/slow bros or diablo + ETC busting out some WWE in the front line fixes all the boring solo muradin + 3 dps drafts.
That's more of a balance issue though and I'd argue it's always been like that through each meta. One or two always rise to the top to combat whatever the rest of the picks are and since you only need two in a game that's what we end up with.
They did what? Johanna, Leoric, Rexxar, and Artanis all in one short period. I agree with Ketch that big super tanky warriors play right into what you're saying instead of the other way around...they'll just become the new go-to.
IMO he's a pretty good counter. He was probably holding her own winrate down more than he was boosting her. At the very least he gives you an equally powered hero on the opposite side of the draft.
I don't think him coming first or not has anything to do with it though. It seems pretty clear that his kit looks like it's going to be a huge boost to Xul and that doesn't seem like an accident. Is it so hard to believe that they knew Rehgar would be OpieOP (as evidenced by changes in just one week) and were trying to gauge how much before coming with Xul? Seems just as plausible as any other hackneyed thing we've came up with for why they put Rehgar out there so strong.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Being as or more OP isn't really a counter at least not in the sense of being a boon to Xul. It'd also mean that Blizz is thinking about him in regards to HL as otherwise you wouldn't necessary have a Rehgar on your team. Lastly why wouldn't they have buffed rehgar with the release of Greymane then?
He does actually counter though. He allows whoever his melee target is to go in on Li-Ming along with him which is basically the only way you can deal with her. That's why I've not had any real complaints about her - she seems no harder to kill to me than KT. And how else would they be thinking about any of these heroes? I think they, like us, recognize that QM is a crapshoot for what you get and what you can read out of what you get from it.
And Greymane is primarily ranged breh. Even in the most optimal circumstances he's never in the thick of a fight for more than a few seconds and was never meant to be.
Agreed entirely, but I think you guys are misrepresenting what I'm implying here.
Rehgar's buff came at a fucking weird ass time whether he needed it or not. He was okay, he wasn't Gazlowe tier. He just wasn't fun like you said. There were plenty of people (including here) who thought this was due to incompetence or bad internal testing which may actually be the case. But to me it seems just as likely he was shifted to a more "in your face/buff the team" role at a pretty opportune time for a melee specialist to come out. Gazlowe is melee and trash tier. Murky is ok for plebs but he's also a joke. In general melee falls behind and a specialist would likely do that even more so...so what better way to make this new hero work than to give him another obvious partner besides Kharazim? To me that seems just as viable as Blizzard being complete dopes like some have suggested.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Yet the qualms with Greymane have always been you need a healer or you're screwed. Somehow QM issues don't apply to Li Ming on the other hand.
I've just not had issues with Melee heroes as Li Ming, Zeratul's shadow assault and even Illidan get much less problematic once you get illusionist vs the hunt or just the shield vs Shadow Assault. The only times I really fed with her were well coordinated snipe comps. Not to mention that Li Ming's talent allow for a pretty ranged specs.
I don't even know what you're trying to imply here but okay I guess? Greymane's issues went well beyond a healer in QM. Even with one in QM or HL or wherever he gets stomped unless you go Q build and play opportunist. That hasn't changed even with the buffs. He's just more reliable to play now and people seem to have learned their lesson about yolomane.
Two people can have different experiences. Such is life. My experience has been Li-Ming takes pot shots til the team gets in her face. The teleport is too small to serve as an ample evade with a true sticky hero on her such as an Illidan, Zeratul, or Rehgar with his Lunge and totem. The only other way I've seen her die regularly is being outplayed by the other Li-Ming.
And frankly if they've taken Illusionist to avoid that melee gap-closing I'm happy. Would rather face that than Glass Cannon because, as you said, she's got such good range. Illusionist is redundant to me especially since I prefer Diamond Skin. Those two talents (Glass Cannon and Illusionist) are the top two picked in that tier HL at every skill level (Illusionist always slighty ahead to a good bit ahead in pick rate) but Glass Cannon has the higher winrate at each skill level, even the low tiers.
What is a well coordinated snipe comp, though? Like who are we talking about here?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm asking why QM issues seem to apply to Greymane but not Li Ming. Since you're disregarding QM for new heroes.
I mostly only take Illusionist against Illidan's the Hunt since the attack will automatically refresh it allowing for additional shields and a much greater distance covered.
I prefer Glass Cannon myself, with Diamond Skin if necessary depending on the comp but often not even that. Mostly against stealthers and Lunara to undo the damage.
Any combination of at least 2 stuns and or 1 root that is able to execute pincer attacks. The jukes you can carry out with a 4 second teleport against bad players are ludicrous.
My idea to li ming counters are heroes with summons... like what happens when you put misha on her or cast ultralisk on her? I feel like would hopefully block all her skill shots...
I think I would pick anub, rexxar, zag, + like some long range ults (sunder/wailing arrow..)
Mi Lings biggest issue is her cooldowns for sure, maybe possibly her range as well. Like the damage on her abilities isn't TOO bad except for the long range sniping of towers and wells and I think the fact that her abilities can be body blocked balances them fairly well. The problem is that she can just cast magic missiles again in 3 seconds.
Think about KT's living bomb, how good it feels when you use his trait to free cast every 6 seconds compared to how shitty it feels when you don't free cast it and you have to wait for what feels like forever. That's how it should feel to play Li Ming.
Like when she procs her trait and goes and goes and turns a 1 for 1 into a 3 for 1 it's cool, it's unique, it looks awesome and feels awesome, she's like the illidan of spell casters. The problem is that she doesn't actually need to her trait to do any of that... she gets ridiculous value and would turn a 1 for 1 into a 3 for 1 even if she didn't reset all of her cooldowns because her cooldowns are ridiculously short anyway.
disintegrate should be on a 40s cooldown, magic missiles should be on an 6 to 8 second cooldown with an increased mana cost. It should feel bad and be bad play when you use your orb, missile, distingrate combo and don't get a kill, right now it means nothing because there's literally no downside to playing bad as li ming. She can just spam her abilities non stop and do tremendous damage.
I think I would pick anub, rexxar, zag, + like some long range ults (sunder/wailing arrow..)
Mi Lings biggest issue is her cooldowns for sure, maybe possibly her range as well. Like the damage on her abilities isn't TOO bad except for the long range sniping of towers and wells and I think the fact that her abilities can be body blocked balances them fairly well. The problem is that she can just cast magic missiles again in 3 seconds.
Think about KT's living bomb, how good it feels when you use his trait to free cast every 6 seconds compared to how shitty it feels when you don't free cast it and you have to wait for what feels like forever. That's how it should feel to play Li Ming.
Like when she procs her trait and goes and goes and turns a 1 for 1 into a 3 for 1 it's cool, it's unique, it looks awesome and feels awesome, she's like the illidan of spell casters. The problem is that she doesn't actually need to her trait to do any of that... she gets ridiculous value and would turn a 1 for 1 into a 3 for 1 even if she didn't reset all of her cooldowns because her cooldowns are ridiculously short anyway.
disintegrate should be on a 40s cooldown, magic missiles should be on an 6 to 8 second cooldown with an increased mana cost. It should feel bad and be bad play when you use your orb, missile, distingrate combo and don't get a kill, right now it means nothing because there's literally no downside to playing bad as li ming. She can just spam her abilities non stop and do tremendous damage.
I could buy coincidence but they also don't buff or nerf (or add new heroes) in a vacuum. They typically do it with some thought in mind for how it will affect everything around it. It may entirely be coincidence, but the emphasis on shields and the fact Xul is melee seems like a good match to me on paper.
I'm not disregarding it, I'm saying I doubt they balance too heavily around it when thinking about synergy or lack thereof. Some heroes - even just looking at the spotlight before you play them - are clearly just bad for QM due to their classification or very strong in a coordinated setting.
Do we need to start a cliffnotes thread for you to read at work?
I've seen her countered to some degree with Zag and in ARAM countered or delayed with Anub, but it's kind of like spraying yourself with mosquito spray or putting out those citronella candles. It kinda works but it's only delaying the inevitable.
Living Bomb and Arcane Orb share the same cooldown so when it gets clipped IMO it does feel shitty. She can't really do much without the orb hitting. And she can't hit D to cast it twice. The whole thing is skewed by the resets, though.
I thought a cool idea for magic missiles would be making it cost more mana but cast more missiles the more mana you had. So like when you had full mana it casts like 6 missiles but when you had like no mana it only casts 1
I feel like the orb outside of the lvl 4 talent doesn't really do much. Magic missiles is so much more damage.
I feel like the orb outside of the lvl 4 talent doesn't really do much. Magic missiles is so much more damage.
I feel the opposite when I play her or get hit by the Orb. Think it does a shitton of damage and is much more reliable to hit provided no minions, of course. When you couple it with the level 4 talent it basically gives you the easy combo kill. Orb + missiles + disintegrate RIP.
I'm curious how people will feel about her once she can't "place" a hero with her orb pull for a combo (or follow up from the team).
I've probably just been really lucky and have had the added benefit of Milly outplaying nearly every Li-Ming we've encountered, but I still don't find her or her damage any worse than KT. Would still rather face her just because of how unfun the Chain Bomb thing is in random pugs killing each other.
I'm curious how people will feel about her once she can't "place" a hero with her orb pull for a combo (or follow up from the team).
I've probably just been really lucky and have had the added benefit of Milly outplaying nearly every Li-Ming we've encountered, but I still don't find her or her damage any worse than KT. Would still rather face her just because of how unfun the Chain Bomb thing is in random pugs killing each other.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
W/o ess of johan my guess would be the build shifting to long range pot shots. With the added damage over range from the lvl 7 and lvl 16 talent plus range you can shoot more than halfway across your screen horizontally and I think more than the entire screen vertically. The ball also gets much bigger, minions would be a major nuisance then though.
She's got a lot of ways to build so it should be fun to see it shake out. And that change at least removes a bit of the "unfun" factor to play against.
Ketch was talking about Tychus buffs a while back...I wonder how far away the Tychus tank-killer changes are or if they are still going that direction? He was my third mastered hero back in Alpha.
Ketch was talking about Tychus buffs a while back...I wonder how far away the Tychus tank-killer changes are or if they are still going that direction? He was my third mastered hero back in Alpha.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Yeah 1, 4 10 and 13 are mostly locked in but you can go completely different routes on the others. Love taking calamity against Zagara to be able to clear her creep, something people at average MMR should learn to do more, but that doesn't automatically lock one into the teleport build. And even if you go into it it's really not that much worse.
I hate Tychus, both playing as him, when randoming, and playing against people good with him. I just don't know how to play around him.
I hate Tychus, both playing as him, when randoming, and playing against people good with him. I just don't know how to play around him.
For me the main thing for li ming is to change up how her talents/kit synergize, like as a burst/poke hero it is way too easy for her to sit in safety and get damage out, plus there is very little punishment for her missing her skills
Like it's the difference between having a "hard to play hero" that has high potential but needs to work hard to mitigate weaknesses vs. a hero that has to work hard to get full value off their skills but is afforded opportunities over and over again to do so
I like ess of johan, like i think it's a fun talent + it makes running away from her w feel more urgent, but one thing that should differentiate her from jaina and kael is lack of cc probably.
Like it's the difference between having a "hard to play hero" that has high potential but needs to work hard to mitigate weaknesses vs. a hero that has to work hard to get full value off their skills but is afforded opportunities over and over again to do so
I like ess of johan, like i think it's a fun talent + it makes running away from her w feel more urgent, but one thing that should differentiate her from jaina and kael is lack of cc probably.
I don't think there was a "plan" behind Rehgar. We have seen them do reworks like this out of the blue numerous times - ETc and Diablo last year, Uther, Nova - it's a long list. He had significant issues with his old set-up because it promoted an extremely passive, boring chain heal spambot, and so needed a rework.
They don't prioritise heroes for revamps in the same way the playerbase does - it almost seems random sometimes how they prioritise heroes. I definitely don't think there was a plan that they wanted to make Rehgar viable specifically to assist with Xul. It was just a piece of work that the team had finished and wanted to push out.
They don't prioritise heroes for revamps in the same way the playerbase does - it almost seems random sometimes how they prioritise heroes. I definitely don't think there was a plan that they wanted to make Rehgar viable specifically to assist with Xul. It was just a piece of work that the team had finished and wanted to push out.
They do look at interactions though, like theyve explicitly stated that certain changes were held off on or went forward or were thought about in the context of popular interactions (like dibbles tyrande for example), dunno about rehgar since it seems so broad
Theyre prioritization seems really wonky (from the outside ofc), but attempting rehgar/nova changes makes so much sense to me, + the heavy hand they had w/ rehgar makes sense in the context of more smaller patches, like i never would have expected a week patch addressing tuning for rehgar in the past (big kael changes snuck in too)
Theyre prioritization seems really wonky (from the outside ofc), but attempting rehgar/nova changes makes so much sense to me, + the heavy hand they had w/ rehgar makes sense in the context of more smaller patches, like i never would have expected a week patch addressing tuning for rehgar in the past (big kael changes snuck in too)
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