They're giving her a 3rd one.
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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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They're giving her a 3rd one.
Zag getting a third eventually as well. They specifically want to do that on the siege heroes w/ a non-teamfight ult.
I'm not entirely sure why, to be honest. All it means is I'll occasionally get bad games where the Zagara takes the wrong heroic.
It seems like an odd approach - the game they have built does not reward team pushing in the way these heroics work. They are trap skills that are objectively bad due to the way HoTs functions. They either need to change how the game works to support them, or change them - otherwise they continue as utterly useless skills. And the game shouldn't have utterly useless skills "just because".
It's also worth pointing out there are tons of heroics that aren't taken on non-specialists, and even more level 20 upgrades that aren't taken. It goes wider than just specialists - they just need to spend some time going back over those abilities and their upgrades because a huge amount of them suck.
Because there are people who use the ult - Nydus Network is a solo queue Zagara thing for split-pushing, while Syl's ult is basically to make AI games even easier to farm.
Rather than taking something away that a small minority likes/uses, just add more.
That same argument can be used for any talent in the game though. I'd rather they just made them good abilities rather than develop another heroic.
But then why take the existing one away? The usage isn't going to overlap, and it won't affect competitive play in the slightest. You're arguing to do so simply for symmetry, because we know these abilities aren't good enough for a 5v5 match, no matter how much you buff them.That same argument can be used for any talent in the game though. I'd rather they just made them good abilities rather than develop another heroic.
You can't make those skills good in competitive. They're split push abilities that don't work in the context of a 5v5 organized game. Hence, you don't try, you just give stuff that the competitive people might actually use.
So, like I said - trap skills. Skills you shouldn't take because they don't work in the context of the game, and when they do work teach people the wrong thing.
Do you really want people thinking that split push Zagara is a good way to play? Sure it might work in your first few games, but ultimately isn't the point to teach people in the game how to play the game and get better?
And you could make both skills work, it would just require a significant rework. Nydus could work more like it does in cinematics, allowing Zagara to join a fight on the other side of the field (and maybe bring some minions!) - a variant on Stage Dive. Possession could be a 4 second 'remove both sylv and her target from the field'.
It's not a trap skill if it's got a use in casual play and is fun.So, like I said - trap skills. Skills you shouldn't take because they don't work in the context of the game, and when they do work teach people the wrong thing.
Do you really want people thinking that split push Zagara is a good way to play? Sure it might work in your first few games, but ultimately isn't the point to teach people in the game how to play the game and get better?
And you could make both skills work, it would just require a significant rework. Nydus could work more like it does in cinematics, allowing Zagara to join a fight on the other side of the field (and maybe bring some minions!) - a variant on Stage Dive. Possession could be a 4 second 'remove both sylv and her target from the field'.
The person using it because they think its good in competitive isn't going to actually get better, because they are a moron.
A trap skill is something like Malf's old % increase on Regrowth's base which did literally nothing to his healing output.
Those skills could work in competitive. They just need to be actually good. Would nydus ever be as good as maw? Only if nydus was really fuckin good. Same with possession. Mind controlling a boss might be OP but it's not anymore OP then having wailing arrow in your kit.
Split pushing has been a thing in the past for competitive. And it was really effective. Pros bitched about it until it got removed instead of getting better at the game.... Even though promote was a cheesy way to enable the strategy, the strategy itself being effective was good for the game.
Split pushing has been a thing in the past for competitive. And it was really effective. Pros bitched about it until it got removed instead of getting better at the game.... Even though promote was a cheesy way to enable the strategy, the strategy itself being effective was good for the game.
I'm not entirely sure why, to be honest. All it means is I'll occasionally get bad games where the Zagara takes the wrong heroic.
I already get games where Zag takes the wrong heroic once a week when I play QM regularly. And that's at ~3k MMR. I dunno how adding a third one will change that much. Despite players and Blizz's best efforts to show how splitpush or whatever doesn't work (and I mean physically doing it without ETC or BW) you always run into those people who swear by it like a snake oil salesman.
a lot of stuff seems to stay in the game just off the basis of them having spent time working on it already
I can agree with this. They've reworked how some things operate and actually changed a few skills/kits, but for the most part once it's out there they seem to want to leave it like it is and tweak it at best. Which is understandable to some degree if they keep churning out heroes at this rate, but /shrug. Still some heroes definitely appear dated.
I agree that having it as an option is good and that promote was just a stupid lazy OP thing that required you to put zero effort into building a comp that could do it well (like MURKY from C9.)Those skills could work in competitive. They just need to be actually good. Would nydus ever be as good as maw? Only if nydus was really fuckin good. Same with possession. Mind controlling a boss might be OP but it's not anymore OP then having wailing arrow in your kit.
Split pushing has been a thing in the past for competitive. And it was really effective. Pros bitched about it until it got removed instead of getting better at the game.... Even though promote was a cheesy way to enable the strategy, the strategy itself being effective was good for the game.
Nydus is designed to let you split push solo. I don't know how you make it "better" without breaking it- Medevac is basically what you would end up with. So add a third skill.
The idea that everything in the game "needs" to be competitive is wrong. Not every talent will be for every type of player, not every ult will be either. Keeping silly/fun stuff in there for a subset of players while adding more for everyone else is great.
Sure, with them, the splitpush is built into them.splitpush works fine in this game and is part of the reason bw, falstad, and etc are good heroes
it's all conditional around team fighting
It's not w/ Zagara - Nydus enables a specific style that will never be viable in 5v5. And that's ok. The 1% of players who use it don't get fucked if they add a third, and the other 99% get a new toy.
im not really down w/ the idea that fluff should be kept in the game, but I'm not in the arena where those things get picked so I guess it doesn't matter to me
like the idea that there is someone out there who likes getting shouted at on the internet for taking something and that we need to give 3 heroics so these ppl can continue to get shouted at is foreign to me
maybe that's a negative view though and there are ppl who get joy out of hitting the perfect nydus
like the idea that there is someone out there who likes getting shouted at on the internet for taking something and that we need to give 3 heroics so these ppl can continue to get shouted at is foreign to me
maybe that's a negative view though and there are ppl who get joy out of hitting the perfect nydus
I don't see where you are going with the 3rd ult. Like why does the 3rd ult have to be a guaranteed shitshow? It might be dece, might be trash.
People who like Nydus will still pick Nydus regardless.
TL;dr I'm with kirblar. Not everything needs to be good or even viable. And there's no real way that it can be. If people use subpar talents/builds/heroics that's on them not Blizz. Everything can't be Ignite. You need some merc lords.
People who like Nydus will still pick Nydus regardless.
TL;dr I'm with kirblar. Not everything needs to be good or even viable. And there's no real way that it can be. If people use subpar talents/builds/heroics that's on them not Blizz. Everything can't be Ignite. You need some merc lords.
i wonder how affects their stance on parity tho
like I guess they haven't really set anything officially on equalizing talent pick percentage, but I think I remember them saying some things on it in some patch notes
it's be cool if like in a year there was this big graveyard list of "talents we gave up on"
also i kinda want to think on the actual difference between things like old lvl 4 malf heal talent and nydus
like I guess they haven't really set anything officially on equalizing talent pick percentage, but I think I remember them saying some things on it in some patch notes
it's be cool if like in a year there was this big graveyard list of "talents we gave up on"
also i kinda want to think on the actual difference between things like old lvl 4 malf heal talent and nydus
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I dont think I've ever seen falstad played. Are there any links to videos or guides I should look at to see what the big deal is?
I don't really understand the mentality. I'm not against a 3rd heroic either.... Just why not make the shitty heroics good? Like Gazlowe is crap, but they added a new hero so that's okay?
Why is it okay for these skills to be bad? They've fixed a bunch of lame crap in the past so why not just fix these aswell?
Merc lord has been changed a bunch for example even possession... Why give up on them?
Why is it okay for these skills to be bad? They've fixed a bunch of lame crap in the past so why not just fix these aswell?
Merc lord has been changed a bunch for example even possession... Why give up on them?
I dont think I've ever seen falstad played. Are there any links to videos or guides I should look at to see what the big deal is?
I dunno about any analysis/instructional vids outside of competitive HOTS vods. He has been played quite a bit for a little while now thanks to Mighty Gust.
LOL. BTW, first result for "Mighty Gust Falstad" in Google links to this battle.net thread:
Falstad new heroic Might Gust. R U kidding me? said:A lvl10 heroic ability that only just do a single push with a slow debuff that does no damage??? This must be the weakest most useless highly situation super ever created. What are the devs thinking? How is this heroic ability be on the same level with other chars heroics?
A 5 years old can come up with better ideas with his imagination than this junk super.
Edited by Redsun on 1/16/2015 9:03 AM PST
We probably have about 5-10 things a piece in the back-annals of HOTSGAF that we made similar statements on. I had a giggle.
I don't really understand the mentality. I'm not against a 3rd heroic either.... Just why not make the shitty heroics good? Like Gazlowe is crap, but they added a new hero so that's okay?
Why is it okay for these skills to be bad? They've fixed a bunch of lame crap in the past so why not just fix these aswell?
Please tell us a viable way to fix Nydus without making it ridiculous. And no, the whole team going through Nydus is not a viable fix. That shit would be insane. That's the only idea I've seen in regards to that heroic. Sylvanas being able to hit bosses on a 10 min cooldown ain't gonna make Possession much better either.
Yeah I think he was still good back then. And I agree, I think most people felt the same about Mighty Gust. Just funny how things change after we all make our judgement. Mighty Gust was looked at as trash too for a long, long time.
That's part of why Nydus and Possession are so utterly shit, though. To compete with an ult that can remove a whole team to set up wombos and an ult that can silence a whole team they would have to be pretty insane to see any play. Nydus is not a terrible ult, it just doesn't make a lot of sense with the way the game ended up being played. When it was designed perhaps they thought it might be useful, but that was quite a while back. Possession is bad, but it'd have to be so incredibly good to be used even 20% of the time over Wailing Arrow that it'd be disgusting.
To me the argument is more why is one ult so goddamn strong instead of why is one ult so goddamn weak.
That's part of why Nydus and Possession are so utterly shit, though. To compete with an ult that can remove a whole team to set up wombos and an ult that can silence a whole team they would have to be pretty insane to see any play. Nydus is not a terrible ult, it just doesn't make a lot of sense with the way the game ended up being played. When it was designed perhaps they thought it might be useful, but that was quite a while back. Possession is bad, but it'd have to be so incredibly good to be used even 20% of the time over Wailing Arrow that it'd be disgusting.
To me the argument is more why is one ult so goddamn strong instead of why is one ult so goddamn weak.
Please tell us a viable way to fix Nydus without making it ridiculous. And no, the whole team going through Nydus is not a viable fix. That shit would be insane. That's the only idea I've seen in regards to that heroic. Sylvanas being able to hit bosses on a 10 min cooldown ain't gonna make Possession much better either.
It's a totally viable fix. If medevac is in the game then why not? You have to give up maw for a town portal scroll. And it could just be the lvl 20. Like saying that's super op but possessing bosses isn't that big of a deal makes no sense to me.
Other easy ideas are to put the bugs which come out of nydus baseline at 10 and then make them ultralisks at 20.
i definitely think nydus is straight up bad
like a little better than possession but not that much
they should just change the name to nydus canai and make the ult this
wanted to link to the stream right now in case there was a falstad but he was first banned in every game
like a little better than possession but not that much
they should just change the name to nydus canai and make the ult this
Code:
[IMG]http://images.says.com/uploads/story_source/source_image/55978/5554.jpeg[/IMG]wanted to link to the stream right now in case there was a falstad but he was first banned in every game
It's a totally viable fix. If medevac is in the game then why not? You have to give up maw for a town portal scroll. And it could just be the lvl 20. Like saying that's super op but possessing bosses isn't that big of a deal makes no sense to me.
Other easy ideas are to put the bugs which come out of nydus baseline at 10 and then make them ultralisks at 20.
A boss possession on a 10 minute timer is nothing. Basically you are just getting a free kill on the boss. It gets near your keep, you possess it, then it has to walk all the way back to the other team's fort or keep...it'll be dead before it does anything between the two groups.
And it's not a viable fix because medevac is in the game. Not to mention Nydus can be placed in several places. It'd be medevac on steroids. It's not a bad heroic, it's just not viable because Maw is so good. You could still use Nydus as a useful skill beyond split-pushing if it was all she had. It wouldn't be great, but it's certainly not possession either.
i was always into the idea of possession as a thing that cced sylv (maybe made her invul?) and mind controlled the target
it doesn't really make sense w/ her kit tho
maybe w/ caveats like all damage dealt to mced hero get transferred to sylv, cds blown remain on hero when body is transferred back, damage dealt by mced hero's skills is reduced by half
duration like 3 seconds w/ the ability to break off the mc
heroes of the storm version of psyduck using disable
it doesn't really make sense w/ her kit tho
maybe w/ caveats like all damage dealt to mced hero get transferred to sylv, cds blown remain on hero when body is transferred back, damage dealt by mced hero's skills is reduced by half
duration like 3 seconds w/ the ability to break off the mc
heroes of the storm version of psyduck using disable
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Adrd and bkb didn't qualify for katowice in the last chance qualifier. Every other former VP team did, feelsbadman.
Is Wiz gonna play anytime soon?
Is Wiz gonna play anytime soon?
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Watching a few vids falstad looks great. Will buy when home. Surprised I've never seen him in a game. Guess he's not a good quick math pick?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I haven't been able to keep up with it completely myself and after the 2nd qualifier it's been rather boring since the top teams all qualified already. Just the usual suspects + some rogue teams.
Qualified teams are GoogleIshetZon (makeshift team of former VP and Kiev 6-1 or something), Fnatic, TL, NaVi, Dignitas, VP (just cebkaje now), mYi (former team Spartanien) and Pigs in Blankets (some of Kiev 6-1 and Ninjas in Pyjamas, etc.)
NA was even worse though. Cog were the only ones keeping things interesting.
Qualified teams are GoogleIshetZon (makeshift team of former VP and Kiev 6-1 or something), Fnatic, TL, NaVi, Dignitas, VP (just cebkaje now), mYi (former team Spartanien) and Pigs in Blankets (some of Kiev 6-1 and Ninjas in Pyjamas, etc.)
NA was even worse though. Cog were the only ones keeping things interesting.
Watching a few vids falstad looks great. Will buy when home. Surprised I've never seen him in a game. Guess he's not a good quick math pick?
He's good for QM. Not really sure why he hasn't been in QM the past couple weeks. He was in it a lot before that. Should be fine though, does good damage and he's a very fun hero.
yeah i wish the format were more lcs style
That'd be awesome. I'm listening to that now while I do my work over the end of this HOTS tourney.
I'm part of the problem.
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