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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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When people generally say a hero is OP, they mean in reference to general hero league. He's currently sitting at a 63% win rate overall, and no hero has ever substantially dropped in win rate without balance changes post release. He actually gains in win rate at the higher levels - master, diamond and plat he's at 65% win rate. He is objectively OP for hero league, and will be nerfed.
Now for competitive definitely not! Looks at Samuro - he needed a further nerf for hero league, yet was already DOA at the pro level.
Edit: I think double support in general is strong, and I think rehgar will be a monster with lili, tyrande, tassadar etc. He is so strong laning, mercing and duelling.
Yeah i understand + historically these rates dont really drop hard. Samuro is a great comparison, something with a highish winrate that i really dont think deserves it
I always try to think about it in a bubble, which is probably the opposite of blizz's interests, like im pretty into the idea of tier lists even if the actual strength of heroes isnt something that is necesarily accessible to the majority of the playerbase. Same w/ fighting games and so on
I always try to think about it in a bubble, which is probably the opposite of blizz's interests, like im pretty into the idea of tier lists even if the actual strength of heroes isnt something that is necesarily accessible to the majority of the playerbase. Same w/ fighting games and so on
Yeah, there's a lot of complexity in win rates people ignore - Sreys post on why Azmodan isn't good but has a high overall win rate was a great example of that. Thing with rags I would say is unlike Samuro he has a ridiculous win rate even at the top level of play, which suggests something is seriously up with him. Maybe it's his ability to ruin map objectives more than anything else that's making him win?
I mean i wanna say it's cuz he's introducing something to the game that ppl arent used to reacting towards (tho they should be imo!), things like waiting on cds or not contesting objectives when you're getting poked out or not being scared of the big bad dood inside of the turret, but i thought that about samuro too and his winrate is still high so welp. My theory on low overall skill (in na at least) is still that ppl dont understand exp and still funnel on map obj like it's the end all
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
2 for 2 now on calling heroics.
Also quickly checking people are still building Zarya wrong. How long does it take for people to realize how broken pain is temporary + unyielding defender is.
Also quickly checking people are still building Zarya wrong. How long does it take for people to realize how broken pain is temporary + unyielding defender is.
I don't think they'll need to tune hero damage on Lava Wave.
As someone else said, after a couple of weeks people will have it figured out and play around it. The only time I really get value out of it at our MMR is when people are hemmed into the lane. 9/10 times they just avoid it. As a 100 second wave clear, it's not nearly valuable enough IMO. I guess you could argue it's a push deterrent, which I definitely used it as when we were getting pummeled last night, but then you aren't using it for wave clear, you're holding it for a defense that may or may not come.
It needs the threat of damage to make it good because the other ult is a 60 second cooldown and punishes the hell out of teams that stack, and if there's nothing else you can rely on in pleb games it's people stacking up.
As someone else said, after a couple of weeks people will have it figured out and play around it. The only time I really get value out of it at our MMR is when people are hemmed into the lane. 9/10 times they just avoid it. As a 100 second wave clear, it's not nearly valuable enough IMO. I guess you could argue it's a push deterrent, which I definitely used it as when we were getting pummeled last night, but then you aren't using it for wave clear, you're holding it for a defense that may or may not come.
It needs the threat of damage to make it good because the other ult is a 60 second cooldown and punishes the hell out of teams that stack, and if there's nothing else you can rely on in pleb games it's people stacking up.
When i was playing her on ptr the buff to the flow on her q was pretty big
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It's going to be huge, her harass was already good but people are still taking resistant at high energy at 13 for some reason, when pain is temporary is pretty much the only choice at that tier.
After the last maximum charge nerf people shifted to hybrid grenade build at 1 and 7, even though pinpoint accuracy was already the best talent at 7 before.
I looked at masters and the 13 didn't change much but expulsion zone went up considerably.
Would you mean talking through everything here? Curious as this doesn't match up to my own experience at all with her (and also, and I hate to say it, the dreaded hotslogs best builds data) plus what I've seen in the latest pro games. Keen to understand what I am missing!
I mean, with the energy and shield build I generally take you basically spend the entire fight taking 25% less damage because it's so easy to stack ridiculous amounts of energy. Happy to be proven wrong though, and the particle grenade build might indeed be ace given the changes coming!
(Does she still have the issue where at certain energy levels her auto attacks are better dps than her particle grenade?)
(Does she still have the issue where at certain energy levels her auto attacks are better dps than her particle grenade?)
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Rehgar's Z/Y is super buggy
For starters buff in question
Before the latest Maximum Charge my general build was
1 Maximum Charge
4 Give Me 20 / I Am The Strongest
7 Pinpoint Accuracy
10 Expulsion Zone
13 Pain Is Temporary
16 Gain Train
20 Unyielding Defender
1: Not sure on what's better post nerf most of what I've seen is going Demolitionist Expert at 1 but I'm not particularly great at stacking that quickly.
4: Always give me 20 unless it's a really bad map for globe collecting
7: Hit Me has always been the preferred choice but it's not particularly difficult reaching max energy imo and Pinpoint Accuracy has a very generous hitbox, combined with Maximum Charge your grenades hit like a truck and Demolitionist Expert reduces the CD by 3 seconds.
10: Peel
13: Unyielding Defender sounds bad on paper since it consumes your energy but it doesn't really. You're using it when you're getting focused which fills up your energy again. That's a shield for 25 to 60% of her Health on a 30 second CD depending on how much energy you have available, that'd be ~500 to 1300 hp at level 1 (~2200 HP). This talent is ridiculously powerful and I can't believe isn't taken more.
16: Unless you really need the cleanse Gain Train is a nobrainer, helps build energy, etc., etc.
20: Unyielding Defender. So you have W on a 10 second CD, Pain is Temporary on 30 Seconds and Unyielding Defender on 45 seconds. You can bridge W CD with Pain is Temporary and bridge the Pain is Temporary CD with Unyielding Defender or if under heavy focus fire off all of them in rapid succession. The end result is you're nigh unkillable if not stunlocked.
For starters buff in question
imo it made chasing with Zarya awkward.
Before the latest Maximum Charge my general build was
1 Maximum Charge
4 Give Me 20 / I Am The Strongest
7 Pinpoint Accuracy
10 Expulsion Zone
13 Pain Is Temporary
16 Gain Train
20 Unyielding Defender
1: Not sure on what's better post nerf most of what I've seen is going Demolitionist Expert at 1 but I'm not particularly great at stacking that quickly.
4: Always give me 20 unless it's a really bad map for globe collecting
7: Hit Me has always been the preferred choice but it's not particularly difficult reaching max energy imo and Pinpoint Accuracy has a very generous hitbox, combined with Maximum Charge your grenades hit like a truck and Demolitionist Expert reduces the CD by 3 seconds.
10: Peel
13: Unyielding Defender sounds bad on paper since it consumes your energy but it doesn't really. You're using it when you're getting focused which fills up your energy again. That's a shield for 25 to 60% of her Health on a 30 second CD depending on how much energy you have available, that'd be ~500 to 1300 hp at level 1 (~2200 HP). This talent is ridiculously powerful and I can't believe isn't taken more.
16: Unless you really need the cleanse Gain Train is a nobrainer, helps build energy, etc., etc.
20: Unyielding Defender. So you have W on a 10 second CD, Pain is Temporary on 30 Seconds and Unyielding Defender on 45 seconds. You can bridge W CD with Pain is Temporary and bridge the Pain is Temporary CD with Unyielding Defender or if under heavy focus fire off all of them in rapid succession. The end result is you're nigh unkillable if not stunlocked.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I think you guys are underestimating Ragnaros by comparing him to Samuro
Samuro is a glorified Illidan.
Ragnaros is on a whole other level
Samuro is a glorified Illidan.
Ragnaros is on a whole other level
W/e i think about rag is based off of a couple games on ptr playing with and against him, and reading his skills (havent checked talents), i prob should have said that
But i still heavily believe samuro's winrate revolves around ppl going "wat i cant see him he is invisible what is this black magic", and im tending to think that ppl are having trouble against rag because they are that guy in austin powers who gets run over by a steamroller (same w/ dual wield varian)
For reference: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OdctnPIR5kA
Dread was talking in his ama about how he has great waveclear for a melee but i dont really think you need to draft waveclear onto ur melee when there are a lot of good options already
But i still heavily believe samuro's winrate revolves around ppl going "wat i cant see him he is invisible what is this black magic", and im tending to think that ppl are having trouble against rag because they are that guy in austin powers who gets run over by a steamroller (same w/ dual wield varian)
For reference: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OdctnPIR5kA
Dread was talking in his ama about how he has great waveclear for a melee but i dont really think you need to draft waveclear onto ur melee when there are a lot of good options already
Played 4 games as Rag in QM and I've won all 4 using 3 different builds, even using Sulfuras Smash (on Towers of Doom, of course).
Might de-throne Xul as my favorite hero.
Might de-throne Xul as my favorite hero.
Yo anyone out there feel like helping me get back into this game? Always loved this game (cause Blizzard) but haven't played it in like over a year really.
Anyone new to the game, or pros who don't mind a newb Gaffer feel free to add me! My bnet# is akabueno#1840
Ill be on later tonight!
Anyone new to the game, or pros who don't mind a newb Gaffer feel free to add me! My bnet# is akabueno#1840
Ill be on later tonight!
I tried the particle grenade build on Zarya and tbh wasn't hugely impressed. Probably because I'm not good enough with it, but I found myself having noticeably less energy. Not having the increased energy cap, and not getting the extra energy from being damaged, really reduced by overall damage.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You take pinpoint accuracy for harass. I just think Hit Me is pretty pointless with how easy it is to generate energy, I really don't feel starved for energy often.
So initial thoughts on Ragnaros, after a measly three quick match games (all wins).
The wave is really strong, and unbelievable defensive tool. The closest game was on braxis, where they had a ragnaros and we were behind for most of the game. The turnout came after they destroyed our top keep, and then all died to a wave that I spawned on their heads. It's very hard to dodge it when that happens, and it's basically a guaranteed team wipe. It's also an incredibly, incredibly strong laning tool.
The living meteor build is surprisingly fun and strong, although a bit tricky to play with moving the meteor. Hugely funny chasing people though, and a ton of damage due to how the meteor works.
Blast wave being cast able on other heroes is *really* strong and opens up some very powerful combos. Sticking it on dehaka, for example, makes him really scary - extra movement speed on a low cooldown that deals hefty damage is quite scary.
I tried the Q build once, and whilst it's obviously strong it's definitely the most 'normal' of his builds, and I think he's probably a bit too vulnerable to cc when paying it. Saying that, he has two really strong defensive talents he can take with that build that help a lot.
His trait is very powerful, and you either need to immediately commit to killing him or get the fuck out of there. If he activates it on a fort you are attacking your best bet is to burn him rathe than run - it dies fairly fast, and it's very hard to run from a raid boss. Also being able to molten core an enemies keep feels... a bit abusive. It makes quick core kills extremely easy
Next up is trying out the blastwave build! Feels a bit weird though as the talents make you want to cast it on rags but it's so good when flung on your tank.
The wave is really strong, and unbelievable defensive tool. The closest game was on braxis, where they had a ragnaros and we were behind for most of the game. The turnout came after they destroyed our top keep, and then all died to a wave that I spawned on their heads. It's very hard to dodge it when that happens, and it's basically a guaranteed team wipe. It's also an incredibly, incredibly strong laning tool.
The living meteor build is surprisingly fun and strong, although a bit tricky to play with moving the meteor. Hugely funny chasing people though, and a ton of damage due to how the meteor works.
Blast wave being cast able on other heroes is *really* strong and opens up some very powerful combos. Sticking it on dehaka, for example, makes him really scary - extra movement speed on a low cooldown that deals hefty damage is quite scary.
I tried the Q build once, and whilst it's obviously strong it's definitely the most 'normal' of his builds, and I think he's probably a bit too vulnerable to cc when paying it. Saying that, he has two really strong defensive talents he can take with that build that help a lot.
His trait is very powerful, and you either need to immediately commit to killing him or get the fuck out of there. If he activates it on a fort you are attacking your best bet is to burn him rathe than run - it dies fairly fast, and it's very hard to run from a raid boss. Also being able to molten core an enemies keep feels... a bit abusive. It makes quick core kills extremely easy
Next up is trying out the blastwave build! Feels a bit weird though as the talents make you want to cast it on rags but it's so good when flung on your tank.
The Q build has the highest winrate and has been picked the most...thus far.
It was what I tried on PTR.
I've played mostly Meteor build on live and it's been pretty good. I did Q build for two or three games earlier with Proto and we rekt, though.
I don't really see the point of the E build, to be honest, unless that damage really ramps up. It's main use seems to be to either help me get Q stacks or just as a speed boost.
It was what I tried on PTR.
I've played mostly Meteor build on live and it's been pretty good. I did Q build for two or three games earlier with Proto and we rekt, though.
I don't really see the point of the E build, to be honest, unless that damage really ramps up. It's main use seems to be to either help me get Q stacks or just as a speed boost.
The Q build with both the survival talents is shockingly durable. You heal for a lot, and any CC basically doubles your health plus you have a 25% resist on demand as well.
Dehaka + Ragnaros + Rehgar. Put lightning shield and blast wave on Dehaka, who takes the vuln at 13. Enemy team explodes. It was ridiculous.
(Not sure the E build would actually help that though! )
Wave is definitely the best ult now though. Hammer is fairly easy to dodge, and wave has so much power even if it only catches one person. Resetting a lane is strong...
BreezyLimbo
Banned
The blast wave build is better when you get the talent that casts blastwave on yourself after you cast it on someone else. That's a cinch.
jaundicejuice
Member
Almost shit a brick when I saw the Haunted Mines loading screen. The new version is less awful, it's not the old one-sided 7-12 minute steamroll it used to be but I still don't like it. I don't know what it is about the multi-level format that makes it harder to coordinate versus herding people to specific objectives around just on a one level map, but even with multiple entrances and two close to the main base, that sort of remains the core problem I have with Haunted Mines. People grouping and entering the mines at the right times.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Isn't that probably because of the rank resizings?
And I haven't tried q build yet but the whole fun of Rag right now for me is the other builds are basically don't stand in the fire builds, which punishes people who don't have the movement basics of the game down during laning or team fights. I suspect that once I'm back in HL though the player skill at that level won't be as susceptible as the QM players.
And I haven't tried q build yet but the whole fun of Rag right now for me is the other builds are basically don't stand in the fire builds, which punishes people who don't have the movement basics of the game down during laning or team fights. I suspect that once I'm back in HL though the player skill at that level won't be as susceptible as the QM players.
TheSadRanger
Banned
IMO the golem could use a slight buff to his siege dmg, even later in the game if you get the majority of skulls his siege damage is really weak. Like weaker than normal bosses you see on sky temple or curse hollow.
I think it's better to focus on pushing during the mine phase if you got a zag/sylv in your group.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
The first wave is definitely super weak. Also the center and just overall size is such a mess. Not a good feeling on that map.
KevMan1815
Member
The giggling cookie zombies are making me consider the skin, and I don't even play Nazeebo.
Yeah it's just the new season, i got bumped down a couple hundred for the qm mmr
Proto and I just beat MFPallytime and Mewn on Haunted Mines. First time on the new map. Seems better. I fed like crazy cause they had so much lockdown. Literally died more in that one game than I had the last two nights combined probably. But we won. Proto got a sick pick on MF/Mewn overcommitting chasing me.
We could feel his salt coming through the other side of the screen.
If you look at your MMR it should have happened after every reset. It's hit mine from anywhere to 250-400 MMR every time on multiple accounts.
We could feel his salt coming through the other side of the screen.
If you look at your MMR it should have happened after every reset. It's hit mine from anywhere to 250-400 MMR every time on multiple accounts.
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