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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

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B

brian!

Member
Feel like a lot of that is way too strong as a base but he really does have some of the most confusing talents

Itd be interesting, if they did redo his talents, if they went with the each talent tier goes towards a specific skill thing they are experimenting with

Actually im prtty interested in what you guys think about talent parity (not ults). Personally it's not important to me, like ofc it's hype when im watching a tournament and they pick something interesting, but i am ok w/ heroes being picked because their "optimal" build is appropriate for what they want. I think balanced talents is one of the hardest thing to do for blizz, i dunno if they should put that much effort into it

Like illidan for example, i think his one build (w/ the situational variations) is fun and im more apprehensive for what they have in store for him than excited (hoping for the money-grabbing buff tie-in to wow tho)
 
M

Maledict

Member
You could probably drop the "use abilities on death" thinkk, just make sure it's gone as a talent as well... ;-). And the shield is never picked anyways, so adding it in baseline just fits the theme of his kit and role more.

Holy Ground being baseline is because I strongly believe that class defining talents like that are bad for the game. Same with Feral Lunge and Chain Bomb for Kael - it's not possible to balance around them because they are *so* dominant and change the classes abilities so much. I'd much rather they were made baseline and the class balanced around them.

One of the best suggestions I saw for Kael was to make Chain Bomb baseline, but to make it the Empower ability instead of the no cooldown cast. So empowering chain bomb turns it into a spreading version, but you can't double bomb instantly which is where a lot of the problems around chain bomb occur.
 
B

brian!

Member
Thats a great idea for chain bomb, tho theyd have to adjust mana unless they also bake that in. Im one of those crzy ppl who dont have a huge problem w/ chain bomb though

Like put fission bomb at 13, fuk w/ the numbers so it's not op
 
M

Maledict

Member
My only problem with Chain Bomb is how it completely restricts talent diversity. I think it, in itself, is a great ability and needed. Kael is fantastic against heavy melee comps thanks to Chain Bomb, and his sudden drop in win rate has boosted melee heavy comps quite a bit.

Kael's role seems to be the AE anti-melee Mage, with a stun and two powerful AE abilities to punish melee heavy comps. They should lean into that, make chain bomb baseline, and then push his talent diversity more so you can actually run different builds on him.

Which sort of answers your earlier question - I think talent diversity is very important. It's not the most important thing (it's better for a character to have one viable build than three, and all characters should have one viable build before they stress over talent diversity). But it is very important - talents are one of the big things that differentiates this game from other MOBAs, and when characters don't have talent diversity it shows a flaw in the design and removes a lot of the fun and choice from the game. You should be able to change talents and builds depending on your computer and your enemies and the map, and if you are locked into "one true build" you don't get that option.
 
B

brian!

Member
Yeah i agree with all of that. If we compare talents in hots to items in other mobas, like in general for the latter the offensive power spike things are kind of locked in and not situational whereas the defensive options are where a little more thought comes in, the hype is more situated in the champ pick itself and how the base kit will interact with the other base kits. Hots positions itself in a way where it allows builds to mutate the kit (and i think they are driving towards this with their attempts with rehgar and nova). Im more w/ the idea of like different viable wholistic builds like kael gp/flamestrike vs. kael chainbomb rather than buffet style mix-match building, but that doesnt make it that much more interesting i guess (it does make drafting more interesting tho)
 
K

Ketch

Member
My favorite talents are the ones which are really strong situationally like Jaina frost armor. I can't think of any other good ones like that now though.

Maybe Tass D cool down.

Or raynors relentless.
 
M

Maledict

Member
I love Frost Armour, it always cheers me up when the Jaina on my team takes it if we are facing an AA team. So I'd tend to agree with you - I like those sort of talents, and think the game should have more of them sprinkled throughout to give people options.

Sort of like how every hero in Dota has the option of buying a Black Kings Bar if the enemy team is CC heavy, it feels like talents to give people situational defensive options early on would be a real boost for the game.
 
C

Cerato

Neo Member
My favorite thing in the game right now is the arthas walk of shame, where i just walk ahead of someone as they try to make it back to their gate, and die. So troll.
 
A

Alur

Member
Maledict said:
One of the best suggestions I saw for Kael was to make Chain Bomb baseline, but to make it the Empower ability instead of the no cooldown cast. So empowering chain bomb turns it into a spreading version, but you can't double bomb instantly which is where a lot of the problems around chain bomb occur.
Click to expand...

This sounds awesome.
 
K

Ketch

Member
Yea that chain bomb thing is a cool idea. I think it would be cool if his lvl one talents were kind of like monks where you got to choose a bonus effect for his trait... Like the small heal is one, and then maybe the other one gives like a move speed boost for 3 seconds or something and one is atk speed and range or something. Would make him more like Dota invoker where there's that big difference based on the orb you choose at lvl 1.

Imagine full tornado cool down build with a little bit of move speed. It would be a lot more fun.
 
C

Celegus

Member
Cerato said:
My favorite thing in the game right now is the arthas walk of shame, where i just walk ahead of someone as they try to make it back to their gate, and die. So troll.
Click to expand...
Even better with Lunara and her slow, especially when they do disappear behind their gate and then the message pops up that they died anyway.

Though the most satisfying ability to me has gotta be exploding someone with triple strike zealot charge as Artanis, feels so goooood.
 
T

TurboLibre

Member
Celegus said:
Even better with Lunara and her slow, especially when they do disappear behind their gate and then the message pops up that they died anyway.

Though the most satisfying ability to me has gotta be exploding someone with triple strike zealot charge as Artanis, feels so goooood.
Click to expand...

Abathur Mines for me. Nothing more satisfying than luring someone into a large nest of death, or unexpectedly killing someone with a mine you've forgotten about. Even better if you finish it with a slap. So good.
 
B

brian!

Member
w/ the way the map objective works on sky temple it can work pretty nicely but he definitely needs a good comp w/ bigger maps

i actually like blaze's comp better here
love the static charge pick by k1
roflcopter missing all his qs is killing me
wp by blaze, compensated poorer mechanics w/ a better draft and macro play
 
K

Ketch

Member
I mean they had the better team fight team, but blaze was just forcing them around map. In the end C9 decided to force them to fight or lose the game.
 
B

bizzle

Neo Member
The fact of the matter is that losing on every metric throughout the entire game and then pulling a win out by ignoring the game's objective underscores a couple fundamental problems with the game.

The first looming issue is shoddy game design where losing in takedowns, constantly being out of position, and losing the objective didn't seem to matter.

The fact that the losing team, that was winning by otherwise ordinarily objective measures, couldn't seem to actually do anything with its advantage points to the shallow talent pool in the professional scene.

My takeaway from watching the game, and this is a feeling that I've had since the first pro game was broadcast, is that both teams played like dogshit.
 
B

brian!

Member
they are really fun to watch

babyface
nvt
blaze
panda

heel
c9
cog
nvt

____

ur giving the objective more importance than it deserves, the game really isnt about that
agree on the winning team not being more dominant, that's partially on blaze but also partially on the comps in the game
i thought they played pretty well, but definitely not on the level of other mobas where mistakes are mitigated to a much larger extent, hots isnt there yet but the chaos makes it really fun to watch

the ending was c9 doing the correct (and only) thing they could do in that situation, and blaze not doing the right thing so I feel like the result makes sense and the better team won
 
B

bizzle

Neo Member
The fact that you can make a comment like, "the objective isn't that important, the game isn't about that" is a *problem*.
 
B

brian!

Member
bizzle said:
The fact that you can make a comment like, "the objective isn't that important, the game isn't about that" is a *problem*.
Click to expand...

what I'm saying is that there are a variety of objectives in the game and the map objective is in there, it's just not this primary thing that a lot of ppl like to think, like any objective in a moba it's a means to an end
like if getting the map objective = the core is dead then I'm with you, but it's not

same goes for objectives in league or dota (vision, dragon/baron/rosh, towers, exp/munny, and so on)
 
A

Alur

Member
bizzle said:
The fact of the matter is that losing on every metric throughout the entire game and then pulling a win out by ignoring the game's objective underscores a couple fundamental problems with the game.
Click to expand...

I'm not quite sure I'm seeing what the issue is with a team doing something stupid late, getting wiped, and getting beat is. If anything that makes the scene more exciting, not less. You don't take an engage or commit to an objective or move that you can't win. I see the same type of shit happening in NA LCS with people getting overconfident for Baron and getting wiped, throwing the game.

And top it off, C9 is the clubhouse leader in this very thing happening against them all throughout last year. That they turned the tables is notable.

bizzle said:
My takeaway from watching the game, and this is a feeling that I've had since the first pro game was broadcast, is that both teams played like dogshit.
Click to expand...

That may be the case. /shrug. It's a throwaway tournament. Feel free to inject your own wisdom and skill into the talent pool though. That $100,000 would be nice, amirite?
 
B

bizzle

Neo Member
brian! said:
what I'm saying is that there are a variety of objectives in the game and the map objective is in there, it's just not this primary thing that a lot of ppl like to think, like any objective in a moba it's a means to an end
like if getting the map objective = the core is dead then I'm with you, but it's not
Click to expand...
The problem being, in this game, they lost *all* the metrics that would be considered to be important: down on XP, down on kills, constantly out of position, down on towers, didn't get the objective, and then fully ignored the last objective to win the game.

I never said the singular objective of the dragon knight is the be all, end all of a match. But if you can lose it every time it comes up and then safely ignore it when it's roaming around, and finally just refuse to get it to rush core for a win, that points to a fundamental problem with the map design.
 
K

kirblar

Member
The cores need waaaayyyy more shielding when 2/1 keeps are up.

I actually think Towers of Doom is the best map in the game right now - if you lose, you lose because you played worse overall.
 
B

brian!

Member
bizzle said:
The problem being, in this game, they lost *all* the metrics that would be considered to be important: down on XP, down on kills, constantly out of position, down on towers, didn't get the objective, and then fully ignored the last objective to win the game.

I never said the singular objective of the dragon knight is the be all, end all of a match. But if you can lose it every time it comes up and then safely ignore it when it's roaming around, and finally just refuse to get it to rush core for a win, that points to a fundamental problem with the map design.
Click to expand...

yeah I'm down w/ that, my b for putting words in your mouth, if the complaint is that c9 waited until blaze made a fatal mistake that's totally valid
I disagree w/ the last point, but it's not really important, a lot of games in heroes and pro heroes often comes down to mistakes made in the final hour and I can see why thatd be unappealing
 
A

Alur

Member
bizzle said:
I never said the singular objective of the dragon knight is the be all, end all of a match. But if you can lose it every time it comes up and then safely ignore it when it's roaming around, and finally just refuse to get it to rush core for a win, that points to a fundamental problem with the map design.
Click to expand...

No. That counts as a fundamental miscalculation by the enemy not anticipating a move that is classic C9 and has been a storied part of the scene since the scaling changes.

It has nothing to do with the map and everything to do with a miscalculation. They were outplayed, simply put. If it's late enough that's going to happen regardless of what the advantage is because the level gap is negligible at that point.

kirblar said:
The cores need waaaayyyy more shielding when 2/1 keeps are up.
Click to expand...

Yep. I think the should be larger based on the number of keeps up like you're suggesting. Makes sense. Some core rushes it wouldn't stop, others it would prevent from even taking place (ie: they wouldn't try).
 
K

kirblar

Member
Alur said:
No. That counts as a fundamental miscalculation by the enemy not anticipating a move that is classic C9 and has been a storied part of the scene since the scaling changes.

It has nothing to do with the map and everything to do with a miscalculation. They were outplayed, simply put. If it's late enough that's going to happen regardless of what the advantage is because the level gap is negligible at that point.
Click to expand...
Alur, you're thinking in terms of player strategy using the gameboard. In that thinking, rules are static, you play to leverage as much bullshit as you can.

He's talking about designing the gameboard. (and he's correct about this type of play being good being an issue.)
 
M

Milly79

Member
kirblar said:
The cores need waaaayyyy more shielding when 2/1 keeps are up.

I actually think Towers of Doom is the best map in the game right now - if you lose, you lose because you played worse overall.
Click to expand...

I've never found that map to be too fun :/

Agree with you tho
 
A

Alur

Member
I don't think outplaying your opponent in any way is bad. There is not an issue with the maps mechanics. They do exactly what you want and will end the game. The fact they were able to stall long enough to bypass them isn't a flaw, it's simply strategy. We saw the same thing happen time and again vs C9 last year.

EDIT: I just don't see the issue with backdooring. You account for it or you get punished. It's certainly been far worse (and far better) at various points in the game. Just because they handed it to them all game doesn't gift them a win. They still have to make the right play to finish.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Alur said:
I don't think outplaying your opponent in any way is bad. There is not an issue with the maps mechanics. They do exactly what you want. The fact they were able to stall long enough to bypass them isn't a flaw, it's simply strategy. We saw the same thing happen time and again vs C9 last year.
Click to expand...
It's not at all. That's not what's being discussed though. This is not a player/competitor min/max thing. This is a design thing.

"Is this play being good/possible healthy for the game?" is a question you ask as a dev. In this case, I would stronngly argue that's its very bad for the game when you can just bulldoze in at level 23 and kill the core like that vs 4 enemy heroes.

That's not a backdoor. The enemy team was there with them! You should not lose a 4v5 like that when the core is on your side.

If you're losing it, numbers and mechanics need to be adjusted.
 
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