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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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I understand. I disagree. I think it's just fine for the game. You see that shit all the time in QM and HL when people bother to play their advantage. Of course you will see it in competitive with more capable strategists and coordination.
I do agree the core should be stronger via keep shielding and that would prevent some of this, but I don't see it as a flaw by any means. Just a change that I would personally appreciate in my own games.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Just because they ended up winning doesn't make C9 the better team in the game. C9 was losing for months while being a better team than Tempo, this match they won while being the worse team.
It's okay Blaze lost because of a bad call but it's bad how easy it was for them. Someone in this thread once proposed a shield on the core proportionate to the structures still standing. This game highlighted once again that that could be beneficial.
Also wouldn't call this outplaying there was zero finesse to it. Bulldozing is quite an apt description.
It's okay Blaze lost because of a bad call but it's bad how easy it was for them. Someone in this thread once proposed a shield on the core proportionate to the structures still standing. This game highlighted once again that that could be beneficial.
Also wouldn't call this outplaying there was zero finesse to it. Bulldozing is quite an apt description.
The crux of the problem is that they have over-focused on team-fighting and not made structures/minions as durable/hard-hitting/important as they need to be. The "insta wave clear" talents are an example of them handwaving an aspect that likely needs to be more important than it is. They're trying to be non-LOL but there's some things they're slowly learning are really important to making the games work.
My whole point is that this has been happening for some time now. I don't see why this one particular instance of it is a big deal. Hell it's honestly been happening since the beginning, it's just the issue became more exacerbated with the scaling changes.
It could be better with keep shielding, yes. But it's not a reason to call the scene and HOTS itself a joke. Talk about an overreaction.
I mean I'm personally pretty gat damn unenthused with the pro scene post Blizzcon myself and these qualifiers in particular, but it's not because the game has gotten less interesting. It's because the stories behind it (and the production around it) has been worse.
EDIT: And yeah, making the right call is an outplay. Particularly when everyone on the field knows how quickly a core can be bulldozed.
It could be better with keep shielding, yes. But it's not a reason to call the scene and HOTS itself a joke. Talk about an overreaction.
I mean I'm personally pretty gat damn unenthused with the pro scene post Blizzcon myself and these qualifiers in particular, but it's not because the game has gotten less interesting. It's because the stories behind it (and the production around it) has been worse.
EDIT: And yeah, making the right call is an outplay. Particularly when everyone on the field knows how quickly a core can be bulldozed.
It's an issue of incremental advantage not being rewarded properly, because a late game error erases every single incremental advantage (via game loss) instead of just being a big setback. This feels really, really bad to a lot of players and viewers because they feel as though most of their contributions during the game don't end up mattering because it devolves into the last two minutes of a college basketball game every time a game goes late.
This is why Towers of Doom works. The entire map is about incremental successes throughout the game.
Yeah i agree w/ all that, esp the stories
I think the feelsbadman argument has clout, but the way i personally relate to mobas is usually w/ the game at hand, like figure out op heroes and optimal shit for the game as is, im usually pretty satisfied with that as long as i feel like a meaningful degree of the game is in my control
I think the feelsbadman argument has clout, but the way i personally relate to mobas is usually w/ the game at hand, like figure out op heroes and optimal shit for the game as is, im usually pretty satisfied with that as long as i feel like a meaningful degree of the game is in my control
I guess. Like I said, I can see your point I just don't agree. I prefer it this way as opposed to what we had a while ago where a 3 level lead meant GG at level 12.
I do too. This is not related to that issue though- this has been a design issue for years at this point.
edit: its specifically the "lose late teamfight when behind all game, bulldoze keep and win" or "bulldoze core with fullly alive enemy team defending" stuff, its just not healthy for the game. You should be able to come back, but the way that's happening right now is the endgame devolving into sudden death.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Blaze outplayed themselves, they also wasted like 2 or 3 DKs.
I wouldn't call it a joke but it's lacking in identity right now. There's no top team in NA to root for right now except Cog imo if they are even one, not to speak of the joke that is EU right now.
Team Naventa (?) is 2/3rds filled with unlikeable dudes, C9 has Arth now, I feel sad for soldier in Tempo, which just leaves Cog whom we still have to see perform great outside of scrims.
The core issue comes up again since we haven't had that many games recently that came down to it, even if the problem never went away.
Yes they made the right call, credit where credit is due but I'm not gonna give them credit for getting a fort and a couple walls. Was it K1Pro on Jaina, he was amazing how he lived through the burst with IB and Bolt.
Also with NVT I just don't like anyone but Fan and MC. Fan is awesome, been rooting for him since Heroes of The Dorm, but as a team, hell no.
Don't forget EU rosters being a game of musical chairs and us knowing little and less about WTF is going on in China and Korea.
If you're a regular in NA you've got McIntyre and Fan (and maybe Zuna if you're into masochism) in Navi Jr. with some grumpers and C9 plus Trollelon. Tempo Storm completely lost it's luster and it has (IMO) REALLY hurt the scene. Having them there and the attention they brought + the drama and everything else meant more to it than we all thought I believe as everyone loves to hate someone.
I mean, you can hate BRFC/Navi Jr. or the corporate manuevering of C9, but it's just not the same. TS actually got a reaction out of people. These two teams have players who are just plain disliked. There's no real story to it. And then Cog is Cog. The day I believe in Cog will be the day they are actually on top of a real tournament and not a moment before.
It's definitely slim pickings.
Tempo was HOTS TSM. From the attitude all the way down to ultimately being a disappointment when it mattered most. BRFC have the heel members but other than Zuna no one really cares enough about any of them to get too bent out of shape like they did with Zoia's antics and Tempo's insane comebacks on C9.
That's still the case more often than not...
Not in our games it's not lol, maybe in the ones you play solo. The ones I play often see it tighten up around the 18-20 range if it's not finished before 20 talents.
Not for the same reasons though- previously the exponential stat difference meant you were just totally boned.
Plenty of times they get their ults, team picks a fight and there's your snowball. It happens quite often still.
I feel like BRFC/Navi Jr. are more like nWo at the tail end of it's run. They kept adding members and some of em were cool but by then no one really gave a fuck.
Zuna is like the Hogan of the group getting all the heat, but he can't get anyone else over.
I agree it snowballs up til about 20 but then people pussyfoot around and get passive and we typically just steal it right back with a team wipe. That's always been the biggest problem with pleb HOTS - no one ever wants to end the game.
Blaze had ample opportunity to win, if two of C9's players were across the map instead of defending against the DK all those times they would have lost. C9 took advantage of their drafts strength in the late game and blaze misplayed.
I think the buildings are working as intended. When heroes are well past lvl 20 then of course their gonna be able to bulldoze through the buildings. It's designed that way on purpose because games aren't supposed to last that long.
I think the buildings are working as intended. When heroes are well past lvl 20 then of course their gonna be able to bulldoze through the buildings. It's designed that way on purpose because games aren't supposed to last that long.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Dreadnaught casting LA regionals and Khaldor + Tatcher casting EU, nice. No Grubby though 
. Gonna miss his astounding game knowledge
. Gonna miss his astounding game knowledgeI thought this was a pretty nice play in an ARAM game we had. Especially with the Sonya leap finishing it all off.
https://youtu.be/W8wggRvCT00
https://youtu.be/W8wggRvCT00
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Won my first placement game in HL. It was a very diff experience than what I've seen of like rank 1 streams or tournies (obviously).
First, all of my side prepicked choices but me. No one picked li/rhe so I was like oh shit we're about to get stomped.. other team had first pick and they took Illidan. I was like woah so now we'll change to li/rhe right? My team locks in zeratul/sonya. Wait what. Other team will surely.. they lock in artanis/ETC.
Wtf is going on. Like I get this is placement and everyone is like rank ~40 and below but..I was just surprised how everyone just seemed to be picking what they wanted rather than what was good/counter to the opponent. So my side the last pick wants to play Kharazim so me playing Rhegar would be a waste. The other guy locks in Zag, nice, and it's my turn. So I ask. What do you guys think I should play? All of a sudden my team comes alive and is like hm well yeah, looking at us and them probably another tank. So I offer Mura and they're like great choice. I'm again like wtf. They were so eager to choose what they wanted but as soon as I asked they went into actual thinking mode.
So the other side locks in Morales and some other non-meta assassin and our dude grabs Khara as our support. No rhe, no ming, I felt like I was playing a quick match. Inside the game was actually decent, we talked way more than a qm and coordinated a bit. Some raged a little but we pulled the win out.
So yeah, I'm sure I'll come across the cookie cutter drafts as I play more, I was just kind of surprised how both sides were so casual about playing what they wanted. Though..I guess..I shouldn't be..?
First, all of my side prepicked choices but me. No one picked li/rhe so I was like oh shit we're about to get stomped.. other team had first pick and they took Illidan. I was like woah so now we'll change to li/rhe right? My team locks in zeratul/sonya. Wait what. Other team will surely.. they lock in artanis/ETC.
Wtf is going on. Like I get this is placement and everyone is like rank ~40 and below but..I was just surprised how everyone just seemed to be picking what they wanted rather than what was good/counter to the opponent. So my side the last pick wants to play Kharazim so me playing Rhegar would be a waste. The other guy locks in Zag, nice, and it's my turn. So I ask. What do you guys think I should play? All of a sudden my team comes alive and is like hm well yeah, looking at us and them probably another tank. So I offer Mura and they're like great choice. I'm again like wtf. They were so eager to choose what they wanted but as soon as I asked they went into actual thinking mode.
So the other side locks in Morales and some other non-meta assassin and our dude grabs Khara as our support. No rhe, no ming, I felt like I was playing a quick match. Inside the game was actually decent, we talked way more than a qm and coordinated a bit. Some raged a little but we pulled the win out.
So yeah, I'm sure I'll come across the cookie cutter drafts as I play more, I was just kind of surprised how both sides were so casual about playing what they wanted. Though..I guess..I shouldn't be..?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
If we have first pick I always start with, don't let them get Rehgar and Li Ming. Usually they don't.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Can't help double post since gaems dead but BKB is gonna move back to VP apparently.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Only that their team will disband which would make him a free agent.
He's kinda damaged goods after the dignitas ordeal, dunno if we have enough of those in EU to make a top team though.
He's kinda damaged goods after the dignitas ordeal, dunno if we have enough of those in EU to make a top team though.
ADRD is a fantastic player, but twice now he's had to leave top tier teams because of personel issues. Plus, didn't wubbi leave TSM and say they had massive interteam drama as well?
Sad fact is the guy just seems to be toxic, which is a real shame as I loved watching him play Kael. Easily one of the best Kael players around.
Sad fact is the guy just seems to be toxic, which is a real shame as I loved watching him play Kael. Easily one of the best Kael players around.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It worked with BOB since there was a team in SK Gaming that had disbanded lacking a full roster he could just fill up.
I doubt any team will pick him up right now so he'll have to build it himself this time firmly holding the reins so if someone would get the boot it wouldn't be him.
I dunno how much weight is behind it but adrd was often referred to as one of the best drafters.?
Adrd is polish I believe. Dude always freaked me out when on camera. You can instantly spot the germans by their accent. There used to be country bias but with the recent shakeups all teams are international now.
VP was ukranina/russian, G2 polish, liquid spanish, fnatic was german (?), navi swedish, dignitas english, etc.
I doubt any team will pick him up right now so he'll have to build it himself this time firmly holding the reins so if someone would get the boot it wouldn't be him.
I dunno how much weight is behind it but adrd was often referred to as one of the best drafters.?
Adrd is polish I believe. Dude always freaked me out when on camera. You can instantly spot the germans by their accent. There used to be country bias but with the recent shakeups all teams are international now.
VP was ukranina/russian, G2 polish, liquid spanish, fnatic was german (?), navi swedish, dignitas english, etc.
I was less impressed. He criticised EU and draft choices, but then admitted he hasn't watched a single EU game. He also did the Zoia thing of dismissing heroes and strats without mentioning at all why - just saying "Greymane's shit" when he's being picked in every single game currently isn't fantastic content.
But then I'm not a fan of BRFC generally - I think both him and McIntyre come across really badly in their streams. Zuna's the only one I really enjoy watching out of all of them, weirdly enough.
But then I'm not a fan of BRFC generally - I think both him and McIntyre come across really badly in their streams. Zuna's the only one I really enjoy watching out of all of them, weirdly enough.
I feel like your first paragraph is just a difference in geography. You EU dudes are pretty sensitive to knocks on EU, even more so than us 'merican's and NA or at least the people we have in thread. Part of that could be that THH takes every opportunity to shit on your scene, though, I suppose. I'd go so far as to say Familie aggressively defends EU like I defend HOTS in general lol. IIRC he or one of the others did give more reasoning for Greymane. And beyond that nitpick and maybe another, he was very forthright with why he thought certain heroes were good or bad.
Outside of that, how does McIntyre come across badly when streaming? I'd be interested to hear this because I've heard it here before but never really heard the reasoning. And I assume you mean beyond the Pentium II 400mhz graphics lol
EDIT: Not saying Mac does or doesn't, just curious.
EDITx2: Blizz is looking at Li-Mings early siege damage. Sounds good cause it's stupid.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I mean let's compare how many hots public people of no knowledge about it shit on NA? Wait no one, the only thing I heard is some saying HL is easier in NA.
Now let's look at how many people shit on EU while saying they don't follow it whatsoever in the same breath, wait every guy on THH except funnily Zoia, the supposedly unprofessional guy.
Obviously I'm biased but it's things like just recently Stitches that are just annoying.
They shouldn't nerf Li Ming's siege too much, that'd make her worse than Jaina w/o a buff in other areas.
Now let's look at how many people shit on EU while saying they don't follow it whatsoever in the same breath, wait every guy on THH except funnily Zoia, the supposedly unprofessional guy.
Obviously I'm biased but it's things like just recently Stitches that are just annoying.
They shouldn't nerf Li Ming's siege too much, that'd make her worse than Jaina w/o a buff in other areas.
EU bros need to start their own podcast and crack jokes about NA meta and personalities.
All according to keikaku. She must be rekt because the qq was too strong those first two weeks.
And yeah, agree w/ brian, don't see the issue with Jaina being better (and maybe she already is). Li just needs to remain in range with the other two mages and she'll get picked regardless thanks to the damage and insane range.
Yeah, some of it is definitely the fact that the only decent high end Heroes podcast has the running joke of "EUs shit" every cast, every time, repeatedly. It's a bit grating. It's not even clever which is what I really object - a good burn can be hilarious, but when it's literally someone saying for the 50th time "EU is shit, they will come last, haha" it's just...dumb. Like fratboys talking crap (which, to be fair, I guess they are).
And nah, none of them discussed Greymane. Erho's contribution was "he's a jack of all trades, there's always someone who does something better". Which might be true, but doesn't explain what we are seeing in drafts at all - and watching LiquidCris play with him on his streams, he really, *really* doesn't come across as a jack of all trades. In terms of suddenly killing someone, Greymane seems to be in a class of his own in his ability to suddenly engage and murder you.
It's the same very time though - remember when we had Dreamhack, after Blizzard, and ETC was the top drafted tank in every game? Wasn't mentioned once on the show. It's weird, but the casual casts like "Into the Nexus" are far better at discussing the meta than THH in many ways because they do actually try to explain things and watch what's going on. Maybe it's because they are keeping secrets because money's on the line, but for whatever reason they spend a lot more time talking about the feel and experience of an event rather than the actual event.
Re Mac streaming, it's because he's gets really salty and can be abusive. I much prefer Grubby's style, or LiquidCris - even when they get pissed off, they don't get insulting to people or viewers in the same way.
And nah, none of them discussed Greymane. Erho's contribution was "he's a jack of all trades, there's always someone who does something better". Which might be true, but doesn't explain what we are seeing in drafts at all - and watching LiquidCris play with him on his streams, he really, *really* doesn't come across as a jack of all trades. In terms of suddenly killing someone, Greymane seems to be in a class of his own in his ability to suddenly engage and murder you.
It's the same very time though - remember when we had Dreamhack, after Blizzard, and ETC was the top drafted tank in every game? Wasn't mentioned once on the show. It's weird, but the casual casts like "Into the Nexus" are far better at discussing the meta than THH in many ways because they do actually try to explain things and watch what's going on. Maybe it's because they are keeping secrets because money's on the line, but for whatever reason they spend a lot more time talking about the feel and experience of an event rather than the actual event.
Re Mac streaming, it's because he's gets really salty and can be abusive. I much prefer Grubby's style, or LiquidCris - even when they get pissed off, they don't get insulting to people or viewers in the same way.
thh is heavily a cliquish zone, which for me can be really entertaining but the cast that shows up every show is a cast im not interested at all
league has something called uh...fuck...oh, summoner's insight, which is similarly cliquish, forward about their biases, and in general pretty fun to watch w/ hateable ppl hosting, but thh has lower knowledge and in general it's hard not to cringe every few minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATfskgH9g8
league has something called uh...fuck...oh, summoner's insight, which is similarly cliquish, forward about their biases, and in general pretty fun to watch w/ hateable ppl hosting, but thh has lower knowledge and in general it's hard not to cringe every few minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATfskgH9g8
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Greymane seems very well positioned he's great at poking and he can murder a squishy faster than anyone else. If you pair him with rehgar there's no escaping.
Jaina being better than Li Ming is fine but taken away the siege w/o giving her back anything will widen the gap possibly too much. I still take seeker primarily because of the siege most of the time.
Last THH wasn't bad there just wasn't a THH recently that was like actually great. I don't know why but Zoia is the only one that if he shows interest actually manages to make a good topic that's being seriously discussed.The shitting on EU can be especially cringeworthy when recently they've been ahead in the meta time and again. I'm not gonna compare teams anymore since that never worked out for me though, nor is there a team I could be biased towards.
Jaina being better than Li Ming is fine but taken away the siege w/o giving her back anything will widen the gap possibly too much. I still take seeker primarily because of the siege most of the time.
Last THH wasn't bad there just wasn't a THH recently that was like actually great. I don't know why but Zoia is the only one that if he shows interest actually manages to make a good topic that's being seriously discussed.The shitting on EU can be especially cringeworthy when recently they've been ahead in the meta time and again. I'm not gonna compare teams anymore since that never worked out for me though, nor is there a team I could be biased towards.
That sounds pretty constructive to me. He isn't as good at range as Raynor and co and he can't go HAM in melee like a Thrall or Illidan necessarily. It's the same reason I don't like having him on my team. He's constantly in the middle. He feels very much like a hero that the crazy Zera/Illidan dude from Team Liquid who quit (forgot his name) would excel on but not many others. That's all IMO of course and I know he's getting play there, I'm just speaking from my own experience which seems to line up with their reasoning on Greymane right now.
I think most folks (and THH) read too much into why one continent/countries meta plays a hero and another doesn't. Like the real reasons behind it, I mean. Nearly all of those niche heroes eventually go both ways so I guess I've just never really found it that compelling.
Really? How many times have you watched that he has done that? Not defending Mac necessarily because I have seen him get a little salty three or four times, but we're talking three or four times in 9 months + 3 months on another account (so a full year) of being subbed to him.
And I don't mean salty like saying on stream "I have no clue why our KT just did that/picked that talent/whydid this guy pick Gazlowe" which is on every stream of every streamer I've watched, I mean salty like gets involved in chat/interacting and BMs.
I assumed you were going to referring to the more uncouth parts of the stream (the green shirt shenanigans and the like). I'm actually surprised.
Agreed on both points. Jake has gotten progressively worse at steering the conversation. Zoia is sometimes petulant, sometimes nonexistant, and sometimes engaging. Cooby is fine when given the chance to talk. The pro thing is very hit and miss. I honestly don't feel the show is better now than it was when it was just those 3 + Schamtoo and a guest. Hell, recently there's only been one guest several times. They've really flopped on the growth of the whole thing not unlike they complain about Blizzard flopping on the growth of the competitive scene.
greymane is pretty good
anything that comes out of nvt can be considered potential sandbagging imo, they havent played a game in public in a long time and as a team their goal explicitly is to win at worlds
dread probably should have done a video on map specific tiers before a video on drafting
another valuable video of stuff that should be standard by now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdzdksu20XM
anything that comes out of nvt can be considered potential sandbagging imo, they havent played a game in public in a long time and as a team their goal explicitly is to win at worlds
dread probably should have done a video on map specific tiers before a video on drafting
another valuable video of stuff that should be standard by now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdzdksu20XM
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Recently picked wave of force on Ming Lee by accident and it was surprisingly good.
I'm over Schamtoo but I'm gonna start looking for another podcast like this. Khaldor seems to plan starting casting with pro players from time to time now, today he cast ETS with Lowell from Liquid. I wasn't following intently but it was okay for a first time.
I'm over Schamtoo but I'm gonna start looking for another podcast like this. Khaldor seems to plan starting casting with pro players from time to time now, today he cast ETS with Lowell from Liquid. I wasn't following intently but it was okay for a first time.
dread sums up my thoughts on most map objectives in the game, well mainly early map objectives
https://youtu.be/Hdzdksu20XM?t=9m37s
reynad really should pay dread to write these out, get some hits on the site
"related videos"
pretty scared to click on this arms every day video, but also very excited to learn about life on a nuclear submarine
____
on a side note, one of the tragedies of having haunted mines out of the game is that it was the #1 map for teaching the idea of "map strategy" to newer players. for me when I started out, playing a game where ppl were like "hold off on capping the fat bois, if it's behind the wall itll do more safe damage to the golem", or "yeah it really doesnt seem productive to keep running into the mines when we cant kill them, why dont we gain resources we can actually get like exp or take away their giants so the big golem they get is less valuable" really encouraged me to think out the other maps in beneficial ways
https://youtu.be/Hdzdksu20XM?t=9m37s
reynad really should pay dread to write these out, get some hits on the site
"related videos"
pretty scared to click on this arms every day video, but also very excited to learn about life on a nuclear submarine
____
on a side note, one of the tragedies of having haunted mines out of the game is that it was the #1 map for teaching the idea of "map strategy" to newer players. for me when I started out, playing a game where ppl were like "hold off on capping the fat bois, if it's behind the wall itll do more safe damage to the golem", or "yeah it really doesnt seem productive to keep running into the mines when we cant kill them, why dont we gain resources we can actually get like exp or take away their giants so the big golem they get is less valuable" really encouraged me to think out the other maps in beneficial ways
It was good for that, but the bolded is something probably 70-80% of the player base can't be fussed with. It's just a game to log in, do dailies, get to play as Thrall and Arthas and GTFO.
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