• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Heroes of the Storm |OT3| Chromiehounds

Ketch

Member
Five days straight of negative winrate, grouped and solo. Losing em every way you can. Sit right back and you'll hear a tale, a tale of a fateful trip.

Throwing? Check. Bad comps? Yessir. Team too aggressive? Oh, indeed. Team too passive? Affirmative. Split push cheese? Constantly. Varian QM cheese? Positive. Tyrande QM cheese? Yeah baby. Bad personal play? Sadly. Potato teammates? Aye.

I was ~57/58% winrate on this season before this past week.10-20 in my last 30 games and now sitting at 49.5% winrate for the season. RIP that fucking ship, she's already taken on the water and we're at the bottom of the sea mates. It's honestly kind of insane. I mean, every day we see people pop in thread and complain about losing streaks and that's just kind of how the game works. Some days you're the hammer, some days you're the nail. I think this is the longest I've had where we haven't even been able to put together a 50/50 day at the very least. Usually it lasts about 2 or 3 days worth of games. I'd blame it on Overwatch players infiltrating my games but rarely does one fly high enough to get into our MMR bracket before their own MMR takes a dip. I don't know if that's good or bad, though...that means all these losses are legit, haha.

On the bright side, I'm 11 levels from account level 1000. And still got a 70% winrate on Hanamura. Could be worse I guess. WTB expanded map pool today instead of Tuesday plzkthx Blizzard.


Don't worry bb, I'm omw




In all seriousness tho, I wonder how many new players there actually are. Imagine where you sit on the bell curve of skill, and then imagine the bell curve gets 30% bigger. Most people who were already playing will end up closer to the middle, which is bad news if you started on the downward slope between average and the best.

Basically, the more people there are, the more average you becomes, so holding much higher then 50% winrate (near 60% is rediculously high) gets a lot harder.
 

Kioshen

Member
Five days straight of negative winrate, grouped and solo. Losing em every way you can. Sit right back and you'll hear a tale, a tale of a fateful trip.

Throwing? Check. Bad comps? Yessir. Team too aggressive? Oh, indeed. Team too passive? Affirmative. Split push cheese? Constantly. Varian QM cheese? Positive. Tyrande QM cheese? Yeah baby. Bad personal play? Sadly. Potato teammates? Aye.

You have already received the brunt of my pop offs so I'll spare it here but yeah I'm in the same boat. Hopefully, this will change with the next map rotation. Maybe our respective skill set doesn't mesh well with the current map rotation I dunno.

The game made plenty sure that I needed to hate it for a while.
 
I've had the opposite, winrate has been super high since 2.0, barely lose anymore when it used to be 50/50 last time I played, I assumed it was because all the new people that suck.
 

Mupod

Member
QM matchmaking is so goddamn weird. It seems like it tries to match certain heroes against each other, like I won't see Rexxar in 40 games but if I pick Rexxar I see him nonstop. My friend has that problem with Probius.

But it also seems to put certain warrior heroes up against certain supports. Zarya vs Tassadar or Tyrande is a common one. This resulted in us going up against a Lucio and 4 tanks yesterday, like they were playing overwatch competitive mode. It was almost the most annoying thing I've ever sat through.

The MOST annoying was the match the other day where it matched Vikings vs Vikings. It went on for almost an hour. I needed 5k exp to get a level for Tracer and I ended up with around 600k. I don't even remember who won. Nobody won, if you ask me.
 

Alavard

Member
QM matchmaking is so goddamn weird. It seems like it tries to match certain heroes against each other, like I won't see Rexxar in 40 games but if I pick Rexxar I see him nonstop. My friend has that problem with Probius.

But it also seems to put certain warrior heroes up against certain supports. Zarya vs Tassadar or Tyrande is a common one. This resulted in us going up against a Lucio and 4 tanks yesterday, like they were playing overwatch competitive mode. It was almost the most annoying thing I've ever sat through.

The MOST annoying was the match the other day where it matched Vikings vs Vikings. It went on for almost an hour. I needed 5k exp to get a level for Tracer and I ended up with around 600k. I don't even remember who won. Nobody won, if you ask me.

You're bang on about Zarya, Tassadar, and Tyrande. They're all considered to be part of a group that are not quite supports, by the QM matchmaking, and the pool of heroes in that group is very small, so you'll see them against each other all the time. I believe Abathur is also in that group.
 

brian!

Member
And medivh

Reddit thread about dyrus being gm is pretty hilarious/late coming to the conclusion that most ppl...dont know what the fuck is going on in this game lol
 

Ketch

Member
And medivh

Reddit thread about dyrus being gm is pretty hilarious/late coming to the conclusion that most ppl...dont know what the fuck is going on in this game lol

I think the try hard for good players success does reveal a lot about the size and average skill level of hots player base compared to league for sure.

I also wonder if they attempted to get dota streamers and maybe they just all said no.


Edit: I feel the need to clarify what I meant by saying that we've seen multiple instances of previous semi pro league players play at the professional level in hots. It's not surprising to me that former league pro dyrus can come over to hots and in a couple weeks play at a professional level especially considering that the performance he put up in the t8 vs nt series.
 

Kioshen

Member
And medivh

Reddit thread about dyrus being gm is pretty hilarious/late coming to the conclusion that most ppl...dont know what the fuck is going on in this game lol

I mean he was a top player in LoL in one of the most storied team ever. There was a very high chance that he would have attained a high master rank. If he didn't, I would have been the one surprised.
 

Fancolors

Member
I like the relatively smaller amounts of toxicity in the HotS community, but man, it sometimes can be a little too defensive about everything. Is being easier to get into such a bad thing?

It's not like Dyrus hero pool was that large or he carried the game or anything.
 

brian!

Member
Closer what? I dont have a closer

Im there bro, somewhere

I think the try hard for good players success does reveal a lot about the size and average skill level of hots player base compared to league for sure.

I also wonder if they attempted to get dota streamers and maybe they just all said no.

Id cut it up into two main things:

1. Like the rent, the confidence mmr gain is too damn high. I dont really know what to say about this since ostensibly it's in the name of making better matches and not keeping ppl down where they dont belong, but it has also resulted in horribly skewed games within the same rank. Rank means very little in the game because of this; two masters players can be horribly varied in skill and knowledge.

2. The game itself is very pro fradulence, both gameplay-wise and mm-wise There are much more scenarios where due to having 4 good players on your team you get carried to the win compared to dota and league where your bootyocity will fuck everything up. Due to the skill lvl of the playerbase and how the game works you lose very little playing passive follow the leader style and just brawling skillfully; no macro knowledge necesary because the macro is often team-style rather than solo mission style. Not saying this is how dyrus played, just that you can get carried in this game more easily and then end up in an mmr range you dont belong...and then go up even further still.

Because of these things you get low incentive to play the game optimally (because ignorance of the game is not a large barrier and you still are raking in dem points). I always add that i think no all-chat contributes to this (less heckling, less catcalling stupid decisions), but ofc that's a plus to me

W/r/t dyrus no shit he's gm, he's someone who knows how to play mobas and the fact that he can get to gm without good knowledge of what the heroes do or what the maps are should mainly be attributed to the lvl he played league at. The fact that he did it so quickly and less equipped is what indicts the mmr system and the playerbase.

Dyrus played just Leoric and Dehaka against the worst team in NA. Don't read too much into this.

Talkin strictly about how quickly he can achieve gm after basically (he has played before, something ppl gloss over a bit) starting the game 2 weeks ago

This game is def easier and the na playerbase is not close to playing the game correctly, i really dunno what hat ppl are trying to pull from arguing against this (not u, just defensive hots ppl in general).
 

Alur

Member
Don't worry bb, I'm omw

In all seriousness tho, I wonder how many new players there actually are. Imagine where you sit on the bell curve of skill, and then imagine the bell curve gets 30% bigger. Most people who were already playing will end up closer to the middle, which is bad news if you started on the downward slope between average and the best.

Basically, the more people there are, the more average you becomes, so holding much higher then 50% winrate (near 60% is rediculously high) gets a lot harder.

We didn't really start on the downward slope I don't think (insert "based on the info we have to go on" that is). We know from the past that Diamond level was about the 88th percentile and upward of HOTS players since so many are packed in the Silver-Gold area. My MMR in HL and QM vacillates between the top of Diamond and bottom of Master, and I've went everywhere from like 9-1 to 6-4 in HL placements and always end up capped out at Diamond 3 so at the least I am pretty sure the HL MMR is decently accurate.

I'm sure some new (or more likely returning) players have found their way into my games and have upset the balance a bit, pushing us backwards some like you say, but it's also just flat out badness all around. Insanely lopsided comps, lots more overextending or raging than usual from randoms, throwing games with huge leads a little more frequently, playing heroes we aren't great with, etc. It's self inflicted almost as much as it's been bad luck with the QM comp rules. We've also brought two days worth of that losing on ourselves playing with players who were significantly lower than our MMR bracket (like 700 MMR and 1400 MMR below), which is almost always a bad time for them and us both.

I'm sure it'll turn around, but damn it's a long rut. 10-20 in my last 30ish and the rut has been going on for 40+ games total.

Maybe our respective skill set doesn't mesh well with the current map rotation I dunno.

I'm not sure, honestly. I mean, it could be that...but when I look at my stats I'm 60% winrate on Shrines, 56.3% on Towers, 70% on Hanamura, 53.7% on Temple, 52.1% on Cursed, and the lowest is Braxxis at 51%. I haven't checked anyone else's, but it stands to reason we mostly only play together so it's probably fairly similar. Now, if you twist that argument a bit and question are we picking heroes that are actually good on those maps? That might be a better indication.

I've had the opposite, winrate has been super high since 2.0, barely lose anymore when it used to be 50/50 last time I played, I assumed it was because all the new people that suck.

Could be. We were winning like crazy for a bit too. If your MMR is closer to the starting MMR range, you might feast on the occasional new player but you're also likely to have them on your team.

HOTS is super streaky to begin with so it's hard to say. One week you can't lose then you can't buy a win for a few days after. MOBA lyfe.

And medivh

Reddit thread about dyrus being gm is pretty hilarious/late coming to the conclusion that most ppl...dont know what the fuck is going on in this game lol

Ehh, I think that's a commonly held belief just based on the rep the game has had since day one. Most everyone knows it's a lower tier of skill and knowledge and that's fine.

On another note, though, man I'd love for Dyrus to stick around and pop in every now and then. Someone DM him on Twitch and see if he can convince Regi to start a TSM HOTS team with Dyrus on it. Pipe dream, but I'd love it.

It's not like Dyrus hero pool was that large or he carried the game or anything.

Exactly. I think he'd have gotten there anyway given his skill/experience, but anyone attempting to be a true ladder warrior in this game (or even other MOBAs) needs to distill it down to 2 or 3 heroes they are extremely good/comfortable with and try to pick them as often as possible. You see it in these regular HOTS streamers a lot too. They often play the FOTM/pocket picks whenever they can. Just the most optimal way to go.
 
Talkin strictly about how quickly he can achieve gm after basically (he has played before, something ppl gloss over a bit) starting the game 2 weeks ago

This game is def easier and the na playerbase is not close to playing the game correctly, i really dunno what hat ppl are trying to pull from arguing against this (not u, just defensive hots ppl in general).

I was debating him playing at the professional lvl.
 

Alur

Member
I just like his approach and attitude. In some ways he's boring, sure. I mean, you're not gonna get chu8 or Voyboy over-the-top silliness or mewnfarez salt type of experience, but I love when someone says something dumb in chat and he just deadpan owns them.

I was debating him playing at the professional lvl.

I'm with you on not taking much from that series. They basically put him in the best position to succeed and I do agree with Bakery and co that while it was cool, the optics of it don't look great because outsiders don't know that context of the quality of competition. I definitely think he could play pro here given time though. Would be more amazing if he couldn't than if he could to be honest.
 

brian!

Member
While he def has a lot to learn i dont think itd be unreasonable for him to be able to replace certain players on top lvl teams. Team 8 is actually a great team for him to be on since it's heavily micromanaged by one player and the playmaking roles are taken up, which free him up to play stuff like zarya and leoric.
 

Alur

Member
The thing to learn about brian!/closer in HOTS is don't expect him to play more than two games in one sitting, and don't expect him to ask you to play. He's like the prettiest girl at the dance, you gotta ask him if you want that carry.
 

Kioshen

Member
The thing to learn about brian!/closer in HOTS is don't expect him to play more than two games in one sitting, and don't expect him to ask you to play. He's like the prettiest girl at the dance, you gotta ask him if you want that carry.

It's so funny because it's true. I just ask now, it's much simpler.
 

brian!

Member
Yah def ask me im usually down to play, it's just rare that im like woo i feel like playing hots lemme log in. That's kind of why i like league's client better, i was pretty much playing exclusively with gaf but it worked because you can just idle in the client/chatroom, but with hots you cant really just sit in the client waiting for a game while doing other stuff since it's pretty taxing. It also feels a little weirder since all the chat/ims are filtered through the same window, i miss messages a lot cuz of this esp. if im already in game.
 

Kioshen

Member
There's an MMR for QM? Is there a way to see it?

There's an internal mmr used by Blizzard for QM, UD, HL and TL. They are seeded in that order when you start a mode. You can have an approximation if you upload all your matches on hotslogs but it's not your true mmr from Blizzard. Maybe they will make it available with their future API but I doubt it.
 

Alur

Member
There's an MMR for QM? Is there a way to see it?

MMR for every mode but AI (of course). Upload all of your replays to hotslogs.com and you'll get a decent approximation. Odds are a couple of your games are already there from someone else uploading. It's not completely 1:1 with Blizzard's MMR since they started doing the resets, but it is great for keeping up with statistics like winrates per hero, per map, per talent, etc. Lots of little details.

You'll probably find if you upload all your games that the HL MMR is the easiest to correlate with your HL ranking. Like if HOTSlogs says you're Platinum and you get placed in Gold 1 but you have Plats in your queues, you'll be able to tell you're likely to move up.
 
Ah cheers, just done that, 2,5k diamond, which I imagine is right in the middle (1-5k right)

Unranked must use QM mmr then? Because I've got a similar one there but I've only played 3 unranked games before last week.

Interesting site though, being able to see all the games I've played with certain friends and stuff.
 

Alur

Member
Ah cheers, just done that, 2,5k diamond, which I imagine is right in the middle (1-5k right)

Unranked must use QM mmr then? Because I've got a similar one there but I've only played 3 unranked games before last week.

Interesting site though, being able to see all the games I've played with certain friends and stuff.

2.5k is the middle of diamond or a little higher which is top 90th percentile or so. Like he says it goes up to 4.5k but really it's about 3500 and under for the vast majority of players. There's a few more up to 3700 and then it really tails off. Master used to start at 3100 or so but the resets have stretched and shrunk and stretched and shrunk things so much that it's about 2800 in QM now.

Platinum used to go to about 2400-2500 but now on hotdogs you're plat still even at 1900. The base starting MMR is silver at 1700...or was, I guess it's in gold now. I think the original way he had it is more accurate to Blizzard's league sizes and MMR ranges, but it more or less comes out in the wash because the resets hit everyone in every mode every time...in game, the resets are only for hero league.

Unranked seeds from QM MMR to setup your early games but what you're seeing is just your games you've played. When you enter a new mode or new season the MMR confidence allows for huge gains or losses (sometimes as much as 200 MMR up or down per game) which can allow some players to hit diamond or even master in very few games and fuck the matchmaking right proper every now and then...brian! was talking about that earlier. The early gains and losses are a little excessive.
 

Fancolors

Member
QM is an odd rollercoaster of wins and losses. At a point I had something like 65% winrate. I feel like my current games are more even now, but it took me over 100 games to get there
 

Alur

Member
The resets on Hotslogs are to reduce the volume of replays that slowed down the MMR calculations.

I get why he did that time wise and monetarily, but it basically sacrificed any semblance of true accuracy. Like I said before, it sort of comes out in the wash, but it's fucked the brackets all to hell.
 
I think I was playing zarya all wrong based on a guide on icyveins, at least in terms of talent builds. Endurance training (less damage at high energy) seems really good and better than consuming your energy for an extra shield... something I was really bad at doing anyway.
 
Cattlepillar from Tempo Storm made a great write up on Zarya, he recommends the spell shield on Personal Barrier.

https://tempostorm.com/articles/an-in-depth-guide-to-zaryas-talents
Spell Barrier is my go-to best in most situations talent at this tier. Having 75 Spell Armor for 3 seconds AFTER your shield breaks mitigates way more damage than I think most people realize. This talent is the least-picked at this tier, and I almost never see it picked by other Zarya players in scrims or competitive games. [...]

Endurance Training is a pretty convincing pick if you can consistently stay above 75 energy to ensure that you are getting maximum uptime on the damage mitigation. The main weakness of this talent is that sometimes it’s just not possible to be above 75 energy when damage is incoming, so I usually don’t end up taking this because the main thing you’re looking for as Zarya is consistent damage mitigation to survive.
 

brian!

Member
It's not a bad talent, a little unreliable tho, but def the best pick if you expect to be above 75 energy constantly. To achieve this you will want to be playing against a team w/ burst options and you will want to stagger your w and e to extend yoyr energy uptime

There are two main zarya builds, q build (for more constant poke and to chunk backliners during teamfights), and feel the heat build (peel, good building dmg, good waveclear); the picks at other tiers often depend on that initial choice.

Whew that cattle guide is pretty good, just read that. He's kind of just giving the building blocks tho so think some of it out too (for example, i am the strongest has synergy with endurance training because it provides more energy gain)

Also yeah icyveins guides arent the greatest, maybe stay away from that site
 
Cattlepillar from Tempo Storm made a great write up on Zarya, he recommends the spell shield on Personal Barrier.

https://tempostorm.com/articles/an-in-depth-guide-to-zaryas-talents

It sounds like a strong alternative, but right now I am not having any trouble keeping shields high. Perhaps in a grenade focused build it's better because you have a harder time getting high shields faster with that sort of build.

Having a player DC in your game and never come back should count as a draw at worst, it's such bullshit.

I see this criticism in a lot of games like this where you don't have drop ins. You can't ever really go this route because it'll be abused.
 
Well it should count as a tipple loss for the DC'd player then and a draw for the remaining player.

Still got mvp, so I got something out of it at least.
 
I see this criticism in a lot of games like this where you don't have drop ins. You can't ever really go this route because it'll be abused.

Yeah there are already people (thinking of one guy in particular) that abuse TL matches by getting their smurf friend to dodge intentionally when they match against another Masters group. This would make it even worse.
 
Top Bottom