Yes, that's what I want and I have been doing so in this thread, but judging by your comments so far, you have no intention of doing so. If you contribute constructively, maybe I'll listen to what you have to say, and we can then finally have a proper discussion.
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Hitman: Absolution |OT| Police do not suspect Blood Money is involved.
- Thread starter Interfectum
- Start date
Yes, that's what I want and I have been doing so in this thread, but judging by your comments so far, you have no intention of doing so. If you contribute constructively, maybe I'll listen to what you have to say, and we can then finally have a proper discussion.
I'm confused. What is the point of this OT if not to have legitimate discussion on both sides?
This whole thread and the game's defense force completely baffle me.
I think, after seeing as much of the leaked gameplay as is available, that it's pretty clear that this franchise has changed significantly from what came before. It looks like what a lot of BM fans feared: a linearization, heavy in focus on story and accessibility at the risk of losing the open sandbox exploration of previous titles.
If this isn't the thread to bemoan the fact that this type of gameplay has been lost, then where else should these thoughts be expressed? Must we keep this veil of forced open-mindedness when all the evidence is piling up that this is a serious departure from the four previous games? Is the OT reserved to circle-jerking, or people who haven't made up my their minds yet? Or can we begin to start piecing together what the picture appears to be at this stage and start calling a spade a spade?
I understand that series change and evolve, but there have been a couple of recent installments in all sorts of franchises that have changed things that weren't broke, when all fans wanted were returns to form. And I think this topic is as appropriate a place to bemoan the seismic shift toward homogeneity/loss of identity as any other.
Raitosaito
Member
Usually in Leon's campaign during the "break into the church section" I would run out of ammo, so if I wanted the choice of just shooting all the enemies until they die I can't. It seems like the encounter is design towards doing enough damage then hitting the onscreen prompt so I can save enough ammunition to survive. I don't feel a sense of freedom to approach the horde of enemies in any other way, especially on the much harder difficulties.
Really?
I didnt say people who dont like the game and are vocal about it, im saying people who go lenghts to the point where it looks they're trying to diminish everyone else's excitement for no real purpose other than "im right!"
I still disagree, because at least those people are backing up their viewpoints with documented scenes that they find objectionable.
some are, some arent. Im not saying it's invalid or that it doesnt have a place on the thread, im just saying that when someone tries to make an argument akin to "game is different but it could still be very much a good hitman game" and someone else jumps out in a "IM A TRUE HITMAN FAN THUS I HATE THIS YOU SHOULD TOO" fashion it is just a bit silly
Yes, the amount of ammo and stamina system are designed to encourage you to use melee, sure. But the way I see it takes control from the player as much as a cover-based shooter takes control away from you by making you take cover and play peekaboo on every encounter.
If you equip the Item Drop Increase skill, you'll have so much ammo that you actually have to constatly throw away stuff to get ammo for some weapon you want (not exagerating, I played the whole game with that skill)
It's just the focus of the game, the way the combat was designed. If it being like that already got some people treating it as a cover-based shooter, imagine if it was actually a viable option. I really don't see how encouraging you to save ammo is a bad thing. Plus, the way I see it is a lot more rewarding to shoot a zombie in the shoulder so it'll turn around and you can instakill it by doing a finisher from its back than it would be to just shoot him until he dies, that's actually the opposite of a bullet sponge enemy, as you said RE6 has plenty of, but the ideal thing is to never waste more than a couple bullets for each enemy.
I think it's very unfair to ignore the amount of freedom this game gives the player with its movement and combat options just because you can't keep shooting things until they're dead without worrying about ammo, that just sounds silly to me.
For every post you had relating to the Hitman franchise, four or five of your posts are trying to insult or discredit any dissenting opinion (But you justify it in your mind by kissing up to Derrick01, right?)
SlasherJPC
Banned
Well aside from actually playing the game I don't know how I can convey the atmosphere, the mood, and style that is in Absolution and how it feels like Hitman and looks damn good. It's there though. The game doesn't have as many open ended areas like before... but for example, at the hotel level... upon approaching it there is three different ways you can actually go into the building, along the way different things you can turn on to get the enemies attention, like a car alarm, a tv, radios, etc. So imagine some more linear style levels that still have multiple approaches to the way you can handle it. Hell every time I got caught I would just restart my checkpoint. Only twice have I went guns blazing before hiding again cause honestly every time you kill or knock someone out it gives you those negative points and it just makes me feel wrong. Another fun thing I did in the first level was sneak some sleeping pills into the cheifs soup, he tastes some, starts ranting, and then falls asleep and I grab his kitchen outfit and take of on my merry way.
With that said the quick time fights seem pretty odd, and I find myself messing up a bit and I'm usually pretty good at these. I don't care for them. Also sometime when you restart checkpoints, guards will be back in place even though you killed em and knocked them out before the checkpoint. Not sure what's up with that. The funniest little visual glitch I saw was some "do not cross tap" I broke through early, somhow put itself back together and broke again upon turning in its direction.
With that said the quick time fights seem pretty odd, and I find myself messing up a bit and I'm usually pretty good at these. I don't care for them. Also sometime when you restart checkpoints, guards will be back in place even though you killed em and knocked them out before the checkpoint. Not sure what's up with that. The funniest little visual glitch I saw was some "do not cross tap" I broke through early, somhow put itself back together and broke again upon turning in its direction.
Messofanego
Banned
The beauty of the old games was that you didn't need distractions a lot of times. It was a matter of well timed and coordinated movements. Is this still possible or do I have to constantly throw books and wrenches?
If somebody posted a good argument, I accepted it, even if I didn't necessarily agree. However, this has not always been the case, as some posters have been incapable of forming a coherent argument, so of course I'm going to respond. Earlier in the thread, I was a little aggressive, but I think I've become more reasonable since then.
Also, was the last part of your comment really necessary?
SlasherJPC
Banned
There have been a few times where I had to watch enemy patterns, or wait till I got to a certain area in order to "trigger" something to happen to get past. So yes those times are still there. I've barely thrown books or wretches... like at all.
The Crimson Kid
what are you waiting for
Hot damn, I don't think I've ever seen a GAF discussion on a yet-to-be-released game be this pathetic, often-delusional, and occasionally melodramatic as this one here.
In fact, it would be an exaggeration to call this a discussion. It's more like a positive validation echo-chamber where people try to show how insightful they are by assuredly calling this game a piece of trash that throws away all of the things that made the original games so great.
The fact is, all that anyone has to go off of are some old previews, a few released dev videos, a few reviews that are mostly suspect due to early exclusivity or oddities in the text itself (PC Gamer review), and a couple anonymous hands-on impressions. Not exactly much to make a clear picture out of. Yet this is enough to validate the pre-made impressions of a surprising amount of people. There are people on both sides guilty of this, but the "haters" vastly outnumber the lovers in this instance.
I'll check back in a few days to see if things have gotten a bit more level-headed in the meantime.
In fact, it would be an exaggeration to call this a discussion. It's more like a positive validation echo-chamber where people try to show how insightful they are by assuredly calling this game a piece of trash that throws away all of the things that made the original games so great.
The fact is, all that anyone has to go off of are some old previews, a few released dev videos, a few reviews that are mostly suspect due to early exclusivity or oddities in the text itself (PC Gamer review), and a couple anonymous hands-on impressions. Not exactly much to make a clear picture out of. Yet this is enough to validate the pre-made impressions of a surprising amount of people. There are people on both sides guilty of this, but the "haters" vastly outnumber the lovers in this instance.
I'll check back in a few days to see if things have gotten a bit more level-headed in the meantime.
The Crimson Kid
what are you waiting for
Anyways, let's turn this around. Actual discussion, yeah? Here's where I'm at:
I've been a big fan of Hitman since Silent Assassin. What IO has been going for in these games is entirely unique and extremely satisfying when they pull it off, which is one reason why the reaction to this game has been so inflammatory at times.
Every Hitman game has had significant flaws, from dull story arcs to dull AI to stretches of dull gameplay. Even though they have been awesome at times, let's not act like any Hitman game was an all-around masterpiece. Silent Assassin and Blood Money succeeded because their individual scenario design was so strong that it overwhelmed all the negatives each game possessed. These scenarios often (but not always) allowed many vastly different approaches to solving each challenge, and the games were able to offer these variations consistently enough that people could stick to their preferred playstyle through most of the game.
Now, when they see the prospect of the new game being more restrictive or linear, they are quick to proclaim the death of their game series, when it may just be that they couldn't engage in their preferred style of play as often as they could in the previous games. If that's the case, it surely is kinda disappointing, but it doesn't mean that the entire game is crap all of a sudden.
Aside from all-around crushing difficulty in the earlier games, the biggest consistent flaw with the Hitman series is an extreme over-reliance on trial-and-error gameplay to solve each scenario. It made it so that your most valuable tool in your arsenal was not a disguise or the piano wire, but the quick save button. There were too many times where, even if you were doing everything right, you would get surprised by some out-of-the-blue enemy that would blow your cover or kill you.
IO seems to be addressing several of these issues with Absolution. They seem to be making a concerted effort to make the moment-to-moment story more interesting, which is something I can fully get behind.
The AI issues and the trial-and-error gameplay are hopefully being addressed by the limited-resource extra vision mode, which should give the player some sense of what the AI is doing and should give you a tool to keep you out of situations that would otherwise force you back to a previous save, thereby keeping you in the moment and making the rest of the mission flow uninterrupted.
At the end of the day, I'm cautiously optimistic that they can improve the moment-to-moment story and gameplay without entirely giving up on the freedom that made the past games so interesting. I found a $30 preorder a month ago for the PC version, so I'll be interested to see how this game actually turns out.
I've been a big fan of Hitman since Silent Assassin. What IO has been going for in these games is entirely unique and extremely satisfying when they pull it off, which is one reason why the reaction to this game has been so inflammatory at times.
Every Hitman game has had significant flaws, from dull story arcs to dull AI to stretches of dull gameplay. Even though they have been awesome at times, let's not act like any Hitman game was an all-around masterpiece. Silent Assassin and Blood Money succeeded because their individual scenario design was so strong that it overwhelmed all the negatives each game possessed. These scenarios often (but not always) allowed many vastly different approaches to solving each challenge, and the games were able to offer these variations consistently enough that people could stick to their preferred playstyle through most of the game.
Now, when they see the prospect of the new game being more restrictive or linear, they are quick to proclaim the death of their game series, when it may just be that they couldn't engage in their preferred style of play as often as they could in the previous games. If that's the case, it surely is kinda disappointing, but it doesn't mean that the entire game is crap all of a sudden.
Aside from all-around crushing difficulty in the earlier games, the biggest consistent flaw with the Hitman series is an extreme over-reliance on trial-and-error gameplay to solve each scenario. It made it so that your most valuable tool in your arsenal was not a disguise or the piano wire, but the quick save button. There were too many times where, even if you were doing everything right, you would get surprised by some out-of-the-blue enemy that would blow your cover or kill you.
IO seems to be addressing several of these issues with Absolution. They seem to be making a concerted effort to make the moment-to-moment story more interesting, which is something I can fully get behind.
The AI issues and the trial-and-error gameplay are hopefully being addressed by the limited-resource extra vision mode, which should give the player some sense of what the AI is doing and should give you a tool to keep you out of situations that would otherwise force you back to a previous save, thereby keeping you in the moment and making the rest of the mission flow uninterrupted.
At the end of the day, I'm cautiously optimistic that they can improve the moment-to-moment story and gameplay without entirely giving up on the freedom that made the past games so interesting. I found a $30 preorder a month ago for the PC version, so I'll be interested to see how this game actually turns out.
And the entire game played through by different people uploaded to YouTube.
SlasherJPC
Banned
The thing about youtube videos, especially from little twerps trying to be"first" is that they rush the games, they put them on easy, and it a terrible misrepresentation of a games quality in length and usually what can be done in them. Look at Dishonored for that... 4 hour game my ass.
Yeah, seriously. 4 hours into Dishonored and I wasn't done with the first mission.
rosaceadude2112
Member
Yeah I'm hoping the story could turn out better than what I've seen. It'd be a shame for something with such great atmosphere not to have a halfway decent narrative.
This is true a lot of the time. For example, one of the videos shown earlier in the thread contained a lot of QTE's, seemingly unavoidable ones. However, I have just watched another playthrough where the player managed to find another way to reach the intended target, therefore avoiding them all together.
EDIT: Actually, he walked forward, triggered a QTE, turned around and went in another direction. So, it would have been possible to avoid the QTE if he went in the other direction in the first place.
It looks to have a bit of tongue in cheek to go with the melodrama, which is good. Blood Money had that burned/scarred corrupt CIA guy in a wheelchair, for Christ's sake. Hilarious.
SlasherJPC
Banned
The only time you have to initiate a quick time is if a enemy fist fights with you. Usually if your spotted and you attempt to do hand to hand. Sometimes the enemies initiate it but really it's more often then not avoidable since you end up starting usually.
JumpJeff84
Member
Took a leap of faith and preordered this on Steam. I figure I'll enjoy it even if it has been dumbed down a bit, and they're throwing in all the previous Hitman games as a preorder bonus. Gonna replay Blood Money again...
keltickennedy
Member
It is definitely more linear than previous games. That doesn't mean that there are not different branching paths to get from point A to B.
Seriously, when it comes to his opinions.....I think that if he really gives it a chance, he will enjoy it. Maybe even a little. I know he really isn't into multiplayer sort of stuff, but the new scoring system ends up becoming really addicting. I constantly wanted to replay missions to get that silent assassin rating.
This might seem like a cop out but that is kind of hard to say. It is definitely really different from previous games, but you can also still see that original Hitman DNA inside the game when you are playing. It still has the exploration and discovery of previous games (more so in certain levels). It has the hilarious dark humor still. For example, I was on a ledge of a building, right next to a window where I overheard a guard talking on his phone to a doctor about how relieved he was that the tests he had came back negative for prostate cancer. And that "he wasn't going to let anyone shit on his day now". Which then I quickly ended by grabbing him and throwing him out of the window....lol.
The game is definitely a departure from previous games. The narrative seems to play a more important part in the game. It starts out interesting, but then i feel begins to get up its own ass. I could tell that even the menus and overall artistic direction had sort of a Kane and Lynch 1 feel ( the main menu had the little girl Victoria talking about how she has heard stories of 47) which I actually really dug.
Fans from previous games are going to feel strange about the new rating system at first. You can go through an entire level, never being spotted, not changing disguises and killing the target in a creative way and still not score a silent assassin rating. One level I actually snuck through then entire thing, and then set up a accidental kill by spilling some gas out of pumps and then waiting till both targets were in proximity and then firing a bullet at the gas causing a massive explosion. This earned me a silent assassin rating.....this would never happen in previous games.
With that all said, I am still finding myself having a great time with the game. Going back and replaying mission, trying to increase my rating and scores. Especially when I see people on my friends list putting up high scores and contracts, this shit is going to turn into autolog for Hitman. Also with the different rewards and unlocks you can get from completing levels in certain ways, I feel that the game is going to have awesome replay value.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Ah, dammit. Seems they are encouraging accidents way more this time.
That sounds like a good thing to me. Accidents produced some of my favourite kills in Blood Money.
It shouldn't be a prerequisite for getting the ranking, though. Maybe I wanna go through as silent as possible and the game recognize that.
True. The ranking system does appear to have its problems.
keltickennedy
Member
How did you kill him the first time? I poisoned the dealers drugs. And then just watched while hidden in the crowd for everything to unfold.
Messofanego
Banned
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Actually, you made me snap to a thought that makes sense: A good assassin is silent, but not necessarily the outcome of his actions need to be silent.
But still, by gameplay standard, is kinda unfair.
If I do play it I'll try to get silent assassin but I don't do points or competitions with other players. It's not my thing and it never will be.
Your impressions sound mixed to me and I'm pretty convinced that I will not like it. Lots of "it's definitely different and a departure of the series" there and that's just not what I want from sequels to these big franchises. It may not be completely horrible but neither was Conviction really, but it wasn't what I wanted from a SC game.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Disguised as the dealer and shot him in the face.
edit: That is kinda what I don't understand. Conviction was still a good game, just more action oriented. It wasn't as good as Chaos Theory, but, not many games are. I thought it was better than Double Agent. This game seems similar. It is a change of pace but this does not instantly doom the series.
StrangeADT
Banned
Regarding the bolded, I'm not a stalker or anything, but just from casually reading this forum, Derrick pretty much craps on every game with extreme hyperbole. He has some valid complaints but he tends to have a flair for the dramatic when stating them. I don't know if I've seen a compliment regarding any recent games from him, so he might be one of those nostalgia guys. I'm not gonna go all post history on him cause I don't care that much, but just take what he says with a grain of salt.
Raitosaito
Member
I like the sound of the game so far, and from playthrough videos.
Maybe the game is just not as open due to the changes to the graphics engine?
Maybe the game is just not as open due to the changes to the graphics engine?
It wasn't better than Xbox 1 Double Agent, it couldn't have been because it was designed to be an action game with minor stealth elements in it.
I think it does doom the series too because I have never seen a franchise return to glory after something like this happens. I'd love to be proven wrong there with the next Hitman but history is against those odds. Did Deus Ex ever fully go back to what made 1 special? Elder Scrolls? Splinter Cell? (Blacklist looks even worse than Conviction so far). It just doesn't seem to happen.
SalsaShark said:
That's because I don't think a whole lot while I'm playing, I just play. It's only when I'm done that I assess what I did and where it failed.
Unless it's something like AC3 that just constantly drops the ball in the most infuriating manner.
offtopic, but the only thing that puts Derrick's opinions into "mmh" territory for me is the fact that ive seen him criticize a game thinking about it after he played it, even though he was enjoying it as he did.
that's just weird. I mean I get that sometimes but I ignore those urges based in the fact that when it comes down to it, how I felt about the game as I was playing it is what matters.
Not exactly, but Human Revolution was a massive improvement over Invisible War and was better than many of us were expecting. It may not go down as an all-time classic like the original, but I would say that it is an example of a franchise 'returning to glory'.
Meccanical
Member
I do the same, the real measure of a game in my opinion is how I feel about it after I play it, not during.
This is why despite me having played Skyrim for over 70 hours, I really think it's awful.
Red Blaster
Member
I think we've jumped the shark when the discussion at hand is whether one poster will like the game
keltickennedy
Member
Is it a long game? I know you haven't finished it yet, but could you tell us how long it's taken you to reach the point where you are now (which I assume is quite far into it).
I do think consoles can actually be blamed for certain things here, like the one hotel level not letting you go down to an earlier floor and some of the larger levels being segmented, but who knows. AFAIK this is using a new engine(glacier 2?) and given the release of the game, it seems too late to really make something so involved at this point unless it's perhaps meant for next gen.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
I've seen a couple of those paythrough videos, and I really don't like how the game looks like every other 3rd person action game. There's no sense of freedom in those videos. In the previous Hitman games, sure they were flawed as hell with janky AI, but at least they were sandbox/open games where you did have freedom to roam wherever the hell you wanted without the concern of being detected.
I'm gonna wait for impressions from Gaffers, but so far, I'll scratch another game off my list.
I'm gonna wait for impressions from Gaffers, but so far, I'll scratch another game off my list.
keltickennedy posted his impressions before. I'm sure we'll see some more GAF impressions in the following few days.
Good to hear. Length has never been a concern for me regarding Hitman games (skilled players could complete them in 2-3 hours), but it's always nice to see a game with a fairly lengthy single player. Barring RPGs, it's almost a rarity these days.
keltickennedy
Member
I don't see any info that shows me how many hours I have put in so far, but yes, it is a good length.
Wish my buddy had a capture card. Alot of the YouTube videos I have seen have had some shit players.