How Should Tifa Be Handled In Final Fantasy VII Remake?

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KoopaTheCasual said:
You people are priceless.

Tell me more about how keeping Tifa's design is more progressive and moderate.
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If you really need to have it explained to you that calling certain body types "gross" and "awkward" is not progressive, maybe you need to take a step back. You didn't even say, "I think that body type is to serve the presumed male gaze and it turns her into a sexual object, which is disappointing." You said you looked at her body and it was gross. You're doing feminism wrong. Go back to school.
 
Galactic Barret said:
That less than answers my question. Thanks.

So, because its old... what? Its no longer applicable? Areas like the wallmarket don't exist anymore? Care to elaborate?
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Let's look at this way: a piece of media generally strive to get specific reactions and sentiments from its audience. When we want to update something and reintroduce it to public (i.e. remake) we typically want to generate the same kind of reactions and sentiments. And thus naturally, some things need to change, because public perception changes, too.

So the same graphic that would wow the public in 1997 would not wow the public in 2017. Therefore the graphic is old and needs to be changed.

Likewise the same joke that was funny in 1997 could be offensive instead in 2017. Therefore the joke is old and needs to be changed.
 
Galactic Barret said:
Yes. I know what Sisqo looks like circa "Thong Song". AC Barret is wearing his outfit.

I don't know what else you are really saying. Corn-rows and dreads are super fucking generic. Never said they weren't tough, just generic.

I don't have anything to be insecure about. I'm Wesley dark-skinned, bro. I could list a few movies and games between the 90s and early 00's where the blacks have either dread or rows. Thats generic from my point of view. Can you show me a few people that look like Barret and Mr. T? When few people look the same, thats called "unique". When everyone dresses and looks the same, with similar features thats "generic". You aren't using the word properly.

Just calm down. When you start typing angry, it shows.
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Black military man with robolimbs is a trope for a reason. Way more generic than a hair style.

That happans a lot more in fiction than you seem to notice.

But im done im not typing angry im just on my cell its 3 am amd this isnt ending well. You seem enamoured with barret to the degree of not even humoring arguments agaist him.

Im done were arent getting anywhere
 
Miroku129 said:
mmm...

tumblr_mx8ygx7Y5c1t5z6j7o1_500.gif
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Yup
 
1. Use Tifa's AC model.
2. Make her breasts twice as large.
3. Make a deal with TeamNinja in order to license their SoftEngine.
4. Spend 15% of the overall game budget balancing the jiggle physics.

PROFIT.
 
I mean, the original was all done with chibi characters right? Seems like the "lengthening" of all the characters to normal human heights will naturally fix the proportions here. It wasn't until FF8 that they started using realistic human bodies. My guess is that the 4,000 word OP is probably pretty unnecessary. I doubt the designers at Square will look at a normal-proportioned female and put giant chibi funbags on that frame -- it wouldn't look right at all.
 
Big tits are "outdated" now? Good to know, I'll tell every woman I know they need to get with the times.

Tifa has always been one of the most boring designs of video games history.

You call it iconic because you've seen it countless times as cosplay, because it's the easiest cosplay you can make. As long as you have a white shirt and a black skirt you look like fucking Tifa!
 
Skilletor said:
Things have changed. If you want the same exact game, go play it.
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As I have said before, I am playing it right now. Disc 2 is in my tray. My feelings are just as valid as yours or anyone elses, maybe even moreso.

Karkador said:
I'm saying that graphics are not the only thing you have to update in order to make FF7 a modern game in 2018, or whenever it gets released.

Even the people who made the game are likely not the same people they were in the mid 90s, and most likely have different inspirations for creating things now. There was already a considerable shift in the tone and the aesthetic of the FF7 world when the Advent Children stuff rolled around.

I'm not sure where you're getting that anyone is saying the Wall Market stuff should be removed.
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Well, not removed. But the poster I quoted did not like the place. It angered him when fans were excited that cross-dressing, homosexual stereotypes and female objectification were coming back. That WAS the Wall Market before Cloud and Co. wrecked shit.

I'm sorry FFVII means alot to me. I wish I didn't care about it so everyone could have the game they wanted to play while they were play this. I, however, got what I wanted and I just want more of it. I didn't find fault in it; I took it all wholesale and loved it. You guys want it to modernize, to change, I respect that. You should also respect a fan's desire to want it to be like it was when it was introduced, expanded and updated to the specs of the machines it will be running on.

That isn't asking too much, is it?
 
Huh, I must have never payed much attention to FF7's ending. Tifa's tits were actually jiggling there? Lol.

Anyways, I welcome the AC look, but prefer the original. Just make all alternate costumes DLC, I'll buy that shit.
 
Cloud deserves better.

Tifa didn't even care about Cloud before he became a famous 1st-class SOLDIER (according to him).

It's like when you become a NBA superstar, and then suddenly everyone comes knocking.

Ugh.
 
Chao said:
Big tits are "outdated" now? Good to know, I'll tell every woman I know they need to get with the times.
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I agree with the rest, the big tits things is a little more nuanced. The issues is mainly: crazy exaggeration which really was taken care of when they moved to more realistic designs, and the fact that so many women characters in media are portrayed as sex objects with large breasts usually accompanying that. Not a problem in isolation, but more of a systemic issue. Either way it isn't a huge problem in this situation.
 
To add, I never really thought the size of Tifa's breast size was an issue - people have them, sometimes they're big, that's the way it works - but the character design that went along with them was a bit silly. Even as a kid, I thought having a hand-to-hand fighter in a mini-skirt was pretty absurd! It'd get in the way of her movement, among other things. I know the internet would implode if they changed this, but even short black mid-thigh or knee-length leggings underneath the skirt could have been a semi-practical compromise. (Never, ever happening, mind you! Hell will freeze over, and Cindy will get a practical pair of overalls and sneakers before this happens.)
 
I personally like the Advent Children look best, and you are free to dislike the old-school look, but her large breasts were not unrealistic either. Women with such breasts exist, you know?

Again, I prefer the Advent Children look, regardless of the proportions either design uses.
 
fidelio_forte said:
Tifa having big breasts isn't an issue, as big breasts shouldn't be inherently sexual.
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They are, though. Regardless of what you think they 'should' be. And you're kidding yourself if you think there's any other reason she was designed this way.

Anyways, this thread has made me excited for whatever they do with her. I don't usually get into all these 'waifu' things or discussions, but I've always had a thing for Tifa ever since playing this when I was younger.
 
GrayChild said:
1. Use Tifa's AC model.
2. Make her breasts twice as large.
3. Make a deal with TeamNinja in order to license their SoftEngine.
4. Spend 15% of the overall game budget balancing the jiggle physics.

PROFIT.
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Exclusive to Playstation Vita.
 
The number 1 thing I always find bizarre about these conversations is how people often try to either

A) Say Tifa having big boobs mean its sexual which means its a bad thing

or

B) Say Tifa having big boobs is fine and isn't sexual.

News flash. There's women with big tits who know they are sexual and flaunt them and enjoy the hell out of it. It always cracks me up in all of these convo's how people are trying to desperately justify their stance one way or another.

What if Tifa just has huge tits and she doesn't try to hide them or be modest because she likes when dudes stare at her chest? People are inherently sexual animals no matter how much people are trying to scrub that out of gaming / media. I could understand making her "non sexy" if we were talking about a serious game with important themes like Gone Home or something like that for example. Having a sexualized big boobie chick in that sort of experience would feel out of place.

Bud dude, we are talking about Final Fantasy. It ain't serious. Embrace Tifa's huge pillows of joy
 
When I saw this thread pop up yesterday I thought it would be instantly locked, because most FFVII remake threads have been deemed unnecessary with a megathread available.

But I guess everyone loves a good "female depiction in video games" thread.

I think when we ask the question of how big/small do a woman's breasts need to be to feature a strong/realistic female character, we have already lost.
 
Scrooge McDuck said:
Let's look at this way: a piece of media generally strive to get specific reactions and sentiments from its audience. When we want to update something and reintroduce it to public (i.e. remake) we typically want to generate the same kind of reactions and sentiments. And thus naturally, some things need to change, because public perception changes, too.

So the same graphic that would wow the public in 1997 would not wow the public in 2017. Therefore the graphic is old and needs to be changed.

Likewise the same joke that was funny in 1997 could be offensive instead in 2017. Therefore the joke is old and needs to be changed.
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Men in a hot tub is still funny til this day (Hot Tub Time Machine... ok not really). I definitely understand where you, and almost everyone else, is coming from. I'm just highly resistant to change and I apologize. And crushing a sleeze-bag's nuts will never NOT be funny.
Village said:
Black military man with robolimbs is a trope for a reason. Way more generic than a hair style.

That happans a lot more in fiction than you seem to notice.

But im done im not typing angry im just on my cell its 3 am amd this isnt ending well. You seem enamoured with barret to the degree of not even humoring arguments agaist him.

Im done were arent getting anywhere
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I swear I'm not meaning to be an asshole or whatever (My username is Galactic Barret, after all) but you haven't given me anything. Do you mean Predator or something? I'm drawing a blank.

Either way, Barret keep his un-sleeved arms, cargos, boots and dogtags in AC, so he would still fit that trope you are talking about.

He has faults, all characters do, but I don't think 'generic' is that. If anything, he stands out from most black characters we've had recently (Except maybe the Cole train).
 
artsi said:
I don't know, but I think Nomura's got it. Don't really want a fan designed remake.
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Thats all. If Nomura does it, I gotta accept it. I just wish you guys wouldn't give him bad ideas. Let them finally start making JRPGs like they used to: their way.
vcassano1 said:
Advent Children design plus more muscly arms would be best.
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Lean arm muscles but her calves and thighs could be a bit bigger. UFC Tifa would be kinda cool.
 
I feel like when this remake was just a fan's wet dream, everyone simply wanted the same game but sporting the graphics that modern consoles can provide. Now that the game is an actual reality, there's a bunch of people that want the whole game "modernized", and telling people who'd like the game to be what it used to be but prettier to go play the original. That's literally the whole point of a remake, to be the same game but prettier.

Like the countless suggestions I've seen saying it should go the ARPG route. It wouldn't be faithful anymore. I don't think people would've liked REmake turning RE1 into a first person shooter

And regarding women with big boobs in video games, I honestly can't even think of very many major female characters with them. There's often one or two per game, but most women tend to be pretty average. Yuffie and Aerith are already in the party, why alter the only busty one's boobs? There are countless women in real life with similar body types to OG Tifa
 
GrayChild said:
1. Use Tifa's AC model.
2. Make her breasts twice as large.
3. Make a deal with TeamNinja in order to license their SoftEngine.
4. Spend 15% of the overall game budget balancing the jiggle physics.

PROFIT.
Click to expand...

And add beach volleyball.

FFVII Extreme Bouncy Beach Volleyball X-2
 
Galactic Barret said:
As I have said before, I am playing it right now. Disc 2 is in my tray. My feelings are just as valid as yours or anyone elses, maybe even moreso.
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Definitely not more than anybody else's.

I'm playing it now as well, and in 20 years since the game was made, many things that might have been socially acceptable, like calling somebody a retard, has become less so. The script should definitely be updated with modern sensibilities. I can't speak for the homosexual stuff in the game, as I'm not as familiar with that culture, but certainly if it is offensive, there are better ways to handle such things, as I think they should, and likely will do, with Barrett.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Tifa's design. Although I question why a martial artist would fight in a mini-skirt. It makes sense for a bartender trying to get tips, though. I also think people are conflating the obviously cartoony CG cutscenes (terrible CG) with her character model in battle. I think most of the pictures people have posted are about in line with her representation throughout the FF7 series and its compilation games.

And yeah, this translation is straight up garbage.
 
I don't see the problem with having huge breasts, that doesn't instantly make it Sexist or misogynistic.Nor does it instantly make it fan servicey. Context is everything.
 
SomeRandomWeirdGuy said:
I feel like when this remake was just a fan's wet dream, everyone simply wanted the same game but sporting the graphics that modern consoles can provide. Now that the game is an actual reality, there's a bunch of people that want the whole game "modernized", and telling people who'd like the game to be what it used to be but prettier to go play the original. That's literally the whole point of a remake, to be the same game but prettier.

Like the countless suggestions I've seen saying it should go the ARPG route. It wouldn't be faithful anymore. I don't think people would've liked REmake turning RE1 into a first person shooter

And regarding women with big boobs in video games, I honestly can't even think of very many major female characters with them. There's often one or two per game, but most women tend to be pretty average. Yuffie and Aerith are already in the party, why alter the only busty one's boobs? There are countless women in real life with similar body types to OG Tifa
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This is truth. Altering something for the "modern sensibilities" is beyond asinine, just let the game be what it is, don't ruin it.
 
Galactic Barret said:
Men in a hot tub is still funny til this day (Hot Tub Time Machine... ok not really). I definitely understand where you, and almost everyone else, is coming from. I'm just highly resistant to change and I apologize. And crushing a sleeze-bag's nuts will never NOT be funny.

I swear I'm not meaning to be an asshole or whatever (My username is Galactic Barret, after all) but you haven't given me anything. Do you mean Predator or something? I'm drawing a blank.

Either way, Barret keep his un-sleeved arms, cargos, boots and dogtags in AC, so he would still fit that trope you are talking about.

He has faults, all characters do, but I don't think 'generic' is that. If anything, he stands out from most black characters we've had recently (Except maybe the Cole train).
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Unfortunately, it's 2015 now. Anything that can be seen as even remotely offensive will be looked down on and asked to be censored to avoid hurting someone's feelings. Nothing about Sector 6 is hateful towards anyone, it pokes a little fun at everything, it's not a big deal. Don Corneo and his gangbang buddies are the only characters that are associated with any real negativity.
 
Personally I'd prefer if they didn't use design elements of the movie. Advent Children had the same type of redesigns that comic-book adaptations had. Desaturate colours, up the black, and add more leather. Not a huge fan, and think the original design was more interesting. The skirt of the original can go though. It's not really compatible with her moves, as it would restrict her leg-movement. Her bust size could go any way, as long as they aren't going to be weird about it. It's not like large-breasted female characters aren't well represented in video games to begin with, so if they choose to change it, it wouldn't be a huge loss for the industry.

I think the picture in the OP that turns Tifa into Korra is pretty cool too. She's your brawler character, so some muscle definition definitely wouldn't be out of place. Don't think Square would go there though. I peg them for a company that thinks female characters should be smooth and soft looking, so they can target that Otaku after-market.

Regardless of what decision Square makes, some people are going to be unhappy. Ultimately Tifa's design is pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of the game. I think Barrett's design is more in the need of this discussion. His old one was straight up Mr T with a gun for an arm, which granted is pretty rad, and I don't want to read too deeply into why they chose to design him like that in the first place. His Advent Children redesign had a better head, but I wasn't feeling his clothes entirely. Maybe a mixture of Advent Children and the original could be the way to go, or perhaps something entirely new again. This is basically the opposite situation of Tifa, where any change they make, people are probably going to see it as an improvement over the original. Both characters have had some redesigns before though, so I think we can assume that Square may not be fully content with either of them.
 
Galactic Barret said:
Men in a hot tub is still funny til this day (Hot Tub Time Machine... ok not really). I definitely understand where you, and almost everyone else, is coming from. I'm just highly resistant to change and I apologize. And crushing a sleeze-bag's nuts will never NOT be funny.
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In understand that. Remake would always be divisive because everyone would have different preferences about what should change and what should remain. I just want to remind people that no one opinion could be the ultimate superior truth to be adhered here.

SomeRandomWeirdGuy said:
I feel like when this remake was just a fan's wet dream, everyone simply wanted the same game but sporting the graphics that modern consoles can provide. Now that the game is an actual reality, there's a bunch of people that want the whole game "modernized", and telling people who'd like the game to be what it used to be but prettier to go play the original. That's literally the whole point of a remake, to be the same game but prettier.
Click to expand...

I think the point of a remake is to update any element that needs to be updated to bring it up to current audience's sensibility. To say that graphic is the only thing that needs to be modernized is really arbitrary.
Mango The Magician said:
This is truth. Altering something for the "modern sensibilities" is beyond asinine, just let the game be what it is, don't ruin it.
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You do realize that this very same argument could be applied to everything, including graphics? Altering the game to fit the high-polygon "sensibilities" of "modern" gamers? Why a remake at all, then?
 
Galactic Barret said:
I had some long, passionate essay written and I scrapped it.

My only question is why do we have to change this? Its already out there: the scene exists already, in canon. Why should they go? Are homosexuals, flat-chested women, and mild mannered black men really getting offended over a 20 year old videogame?

Am I allowed to say enough is enough and there are just some things you don't focus test for? Square should never have announced this game, and that makes me more sad than a little bit.
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No, people aren't offended by FFVII as it existed in the 90s. They're embarrassed by it for being quite socially backwards compared to today, much in the same way they're embarrassed about racial and social caricatures in Disney and Looney Tunes cartoons. But many take it as "a sign of the times".

But when you remake something - not re-release, REMAKE - and aren't taking the current world around you into consideration, while actually considering such caricatures as something that's still worthy of a cheap laugh, then yeah, I have a bit of a reason for offence.
 
Having big breasts is OK, having big breasts and being thin like a stick, is straight unrealistic.

Just give her REAL proportions. Make her breasts as big as possible while still fitting her body proportions.

WE DONT WANT SURGERY BREATS! (I think)

/thread
 
Skilletor said:
Definitely not more than anybody else's.

I'm playing it now as well, and in 20 years since the game was made, many things that might have been socially acceptable, like calling somebody a retard, has become less so. The script should definitely be updated with modern sensibilities. I can't speak for the homosexual stuff in the game, as I'm not as familiar with that culture, but certainly if it is offensive, there are better ways to handle such things, as I think they should, and likely will do, with Barrett.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Tifa's design. Although I question why a martial artist would fight in a mini-skirt. It makes sense for a bartender trying to get tips, though. I also think people are conflating the obviously cartoony CG cutscenes (terrible CG) with her character model in battle. I think most of the pictures people have posted are about in line with her representation throughout the FF7 series and its compilation games.

And yeah, this translation is straight up garbage.
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Script changes? Sure. Why not? That is the first thing that will be done, of course. If you're talking about wholesale removing scenes, thats when I have a problem.

Nitpick: Barret, one T.

Tifa has large breasts in her battle design too. People just want to remove anything that can be construed as sexual exploitation when we should be able to look at the human body, especially in videogames, without sexual thoughts running rampant.

And I do feel like my feelings weigh more in the grand scheme, as do about yours. You changing Barret's design and/or dialog would be better overall, but thats something you personally want. Its human nature. I feel that way cause I'm just a huge fan. Haven't played a game better and I've played it once every year since... 1999? That means nothing to no one but me in the long run, but thats what I got.
 
I don't see what's wrong with big breasts honestly, some are making it seem like women with big breasts don't exist, or thin women with big breasts don't exist...
 
Terrell said:
No, people aren't offended by FFVII as it existed in the 90s. They're embarrassed by it for being quite socially backwards compared to today, much in the same way they're embarrassed about racial and social caricatures in Disney and Looney Tunes cartoons. But many take it as "a sign of the times".

But when you remake something - not re-release, REMAKE - and aren't taking the current world around you into consideration, while actually considering such caricatures as something that's still worthy of a cheap laugh, then yeah, I have a bit of a reason for offence.
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Well put. Completely agree.
 
Galactic Barret said:
And I do feel like my feelings weigh more in the grand scheme, as do about yours. You changing Barret's design and/or dialog would be better overall, but thats something you personally want. Its human nature. I feel that way cause I'm just a huge fan. Haven't played a game better and I've played it once every year since... 1999? That means nothing to no one but me in the long run, but thats what I got.
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If you're still playing the original FF7 to this day, every year, I'm going to guess that the remake is not really intended for you; it's probably more so for a new generation of kids who wouldn't touch a PS1 game.
 
Galactic Barret said:
Tifa has large breasts in her battle design too. People just want to remove anything that can be construed as sexual exploitation when we should be able to look at the human body, especially in videogames, without sexual thoughts running rampant.
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Personally,I want her to get a good treatment in this game because its she's a really prominent female character.

The new generation of gamers and journalists shouldn't label her as a "big breasted bimbo" and not much else.

There's a lot more going for this character ,and I think Square will get it right,hopefully.Appearance plays a large part into it.
 
I don't exactly see what the issue is as the original models were held back my the tech and art from back then. Big breasts ain't a myth, and as long as they look 'realistic' in the sense that they are proportional and don't behave like hop balls it's okay.

The idea of giving her a more muscular look though is pretty great and fits today's world. I like that idea.
 
I don't think I have it in me to get into a breast size discussion on a video game forum, but is her Final Fantasy VII look, in terms of wardrobe, not iconic? It would seem odd to me to have a 20th anniversary remake ditch the instantly identifiable aesthetic elements, for any of the characters.

Bear in mind, I haven't played the game since it came out in 1997 -- this makes it really easy for me to boil down character iconography to bare essentials. I identify a white tank or crop top, suspenders, black bottoms, red shoes and red gloves as Tifa. I don't quite get the love for the Advent Children look. Are you folks referring simply to the way her person is rendered? In terms of wardrobe, I would have absolutely no idea that the character was supposed to be Tifa if you all hadn't said so. Further, I don't see anything in that wardrobe that signifies her character or occupation. (EDIT: Okay, she has a...backwards apron? I guess?)

Just my two cents. Tweaks are most definitely in order for the whole cast, but I feel that a remake should retain the iconography of the original. Ditching key elements like the suspenders, tank and gloves in favor of a "we're making a comic book movie in the early 2000s, let's do it all in black leather" vibe seems like a boring choice.
 
Nibel said:
The idea of giving her a more muscular look though is pretty great and fits today's world. I like that idea.
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Strong muscular definition would do wonders for this character ,and wouldn't make her any less appealing.

She's incredibly strong and her arms should reflect this strength in muscle definition.
 
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