Support NeoGAF

[Zalusithix]

Hasn't anyone measured it by now?

Spoiler

Nothing progresses when I'm not home

Too busy with non VR stuff lately. =P

Given somebody noticed a difference with 1.5, and chaperone switcher starts with 1.0, I think it's a reasonable assumption that it's applied as a multiplier against the default 1.4x render target. Kind of makes sense given the name, but names can be deceiving at times. It'd also mirror the multipliers used in the adaptive scaling Valve uses where 1.0 is the 1.4x.

 

[bomblord1]

Does that change the render target for Vive home software or for everything that runs with Steam VR?

 

[GlamFM]

Does that change the render target for Vive home software or for everything that runs with Steam VR?

Everything.

 

[Hawkian]

Too busy with non VR stuff lately. =P

Given somebody noticed a difference with 1.5, and chaperone switcher starts with 1.0, I think it's a reasonable assumption that it's applied as a multiplier against the default 1.4x render target. Kind of makes sense given the name, but names can be deceiving at times. It'd also mirror the multipliers used in the adaptive scaling Valve uses where 1.0 is the 1.4x.

Yeah that's what I believe is going on.

Does that change the render target for Vive home software or for everything that runs with Steam VR?

The setting that ChaperoneSwitcher changes is actually a value in a text file in your steam/config folder. So anything from Steam that gets piped to the vive should experience the change- for better or worse, as graphically intensive games may suffer performance wise if you go too high with the multiplier. Although it should also be considered that sometimes lowering the in-game graphics options vs. a higher level of supersampling may be preferable.

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

Is 1.8x scaling a safe setting for a 980ti? Maybe push it to 2x for some games?

 

[GlamFM]

Is 1.8x scaling a safe setting for a 980ti? Maybe push it to 2x for some games?

Just try it.

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

Just try it.

I have to do everything!


Kidding, I'll give it a go this evening and report back.

 

[JaseC]

If any AusGAFers are contemplating a Vive purchase now that tax refund season is upon us, I'd wait for Microsoft Store AU to get some stock as there are several reports that they'll be going for $1,009 posted, which is significantly better than the ~$1,206 price on HTC's own store, to say nothing of the ~$145 shipping fee.

I was going to hold out until the second revision, but at $1k delivered I may very well cave if my tax refund is a fair chunk of change.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I'm away from my Vive for about a month so I haven't been able to play around with super sampling myself, but I've never noticed aliasing in headset.

I see pixelation, yes, but not aliasing, at least not as I generally think of it outside of VR. No intense shimmering or staircases.

 

[bomblord1]

If any AusGAFers are contemplating a Vive purchase now that tax refund season is upon us, I'd wait for Microsoft Store AU to get some stock as there are several reports that they'll be going for $1,009 posted, which is significantly better than the ~$1,206 price on HTC's own store, to say nothing of the ~$145 shipping fee.

I was going to hold out until the second revision, but at $1k delivered I may very well cave if my tax refund is a fair chunk of change.

Well worth it IMO I saved for months to afford my U.S ($800 + $6 shipping + 7% tax) and I couldn't be happier with the experience despite not having a ton of great software out for it.

 

[GlamFM]

I'm away from my Vive for about a month so I haven't been able to play around with super sampling myself, but I've never noticed aliasing in headset.

I see pixelation, yes, but not aliasing, at least not as I generally think of it outside of VR. No intense shimmering or staircases.

It's a huge difference.

 

[wwm0nkey]

What settings would be good for a 980?

 

[GlamFM]

What settings would be good for a 980?

Just play around with it. My 1080 starts getting funky at 2.5.

 

[bomblord1]

I might try it at 1.5 on my Nano where I can find it?

 

[Durante]

I'm away from my Vive for about a month so I haven't been able to play around with super sampling myself, but I've never noticed aliasing in headset.

I see pixelation, yes, but not aliasing, at least not as I generally think of it outside of VR. No intense shimmering or staircases.

It completely depends on the application. E.g. The Lab is basically free of aliasing (or about as close as it gets), but many other games can and do feature all the telltale artifacts of low IQ, like edge aliasing, shimmering, motion instability, muddyness, or any combination of those.

What settings would be good for a 980?

That also completely depends on the application

 

[GlamFM]

It completely depends on the application. E.g. The Lab is basically free of aliasing (or about as close as it gets), but many other games can and do feature all the telltale artifacts of low IQ, like edge aliasing, shimmering, motion instability, muddyness, or any combination of those.

That also completely depends on the application

Even the lab benefits from super sampling, the text boards become readable from further away. Super nice.

 

[Zalusithix]

I'm away from my Vive for about a month so I haven't been able to play around with super sampling myself, but I've never noticed aliasing in headset.

I see pixelation, yes, but not aliasing, at least not as I generally think of it outside of VR. No intense shimmering or staircases.

Play some Elite Dangerous. You'll notice lots of aliasing. Almost painful amounts of it. Shimmering, and staircasing galore without supersampling.

Even the lab benefits from super sampling, the text boards become readable from further away. Super nice.

The Lab should already supersample to varying degrees on the fly depending on GPU load. I'm not sure what the heck this variable does in the face of that. Overriding it? Setting a new value for 0?

 

[Durante]

The Lab should already supersample to varying degrees on the fly depending on GPU load. I'm not sure what the heck this variable does in the face of that. Overriding it? Setting a new value for 0?

I could imagine that it might change the base scaling resolution from which everything else derives. At least that seems like something which could easily happen in a sane implementation (e.g. query the recommended render res for the hardware first and base all your scaling levels on that).

Do we at least know by now whether the global multiplier is linear or quadratic in terms of pixels rendered?

 

[Dario ff]

Hasn't anyone measured it by now?

Spoiler

Nothing progresses when I'm not home

The multiplier affects the value the OpenVR API returns pretty linearly. At 1.0, the value is 1512x1680 (1.4x over the native display) for each render target. At 2.0 you get exactly double in those values.

The value is dependent on the HMD you use and it won't return a valid value if no HMD is connected, but I don't have other HMDs to test what values it gives.

e.g. SteamVR renderTargetMultiplier in 2.0, after rebooting, gives me this on my application:

 

[Durante]

The multiplier affects the value the OpenVR API returns pretty linearly. At 1.0, the value is 1512x1680 (1.4x over the native display) for each render target. At 2.0 you get exactly double in those values.

Thanks!
So it is actually quadratic (as in, 2.0 is 4 times as many pixels rendered), and acts like I expected in terms of how it affects the API functions. (And exactly how I was planning to affect them with a wrapper -- thanks Valve for saving me the effort )

 

[bomblord1]

Is there anyway to record the framerate of a VR game in a way to get averages/view the framerate at a specific time?

Along with that what's the best way to capture footage (video) of a running game?

 

[koji kabuto]

Lightblade VR is one of the best looking games on Vive...to bad that it always freeze or crash.

 

[Zalusithix]

Thanks!
So it is actually quadratic (as in, 2.0 is 4 times as many pixels rendered), and acts like I expected in terms of how it affects the API functions. (And exactly how I was planning to affect them with a wrapper -- thanks Vlave for saving me the effort )

How I figured it worked as well. With this in mind, and assuming the scaled resolution becomes the baseline value in Valve's adaptive scaling, it makes each scaling step significantly larger.

The thing is, the values between each step were tuned with the prediction algorithm to provide the best quality and response without overshooting hardware capabilities. With an altered base, it could cause intermittent frame timing issues by overshooting, or even cause it to reduce below baseline because the steps are larger. Considering the steps contain more than resolution (AA, radial masking, etc), this could be playing with fire a bit for that renderer.

 

[DouglasteR]

Even at 2.0 Elite is a shimmering and aliasing feast !

We just need a higher res display, really.

 

[Onemic]

I really hope that the next gen HMD's improve depth perception at larger distances because it seems that there is a hard limit across all VR games at about ~20 meters

 

[GlamFM]

I really hope that the next gen HMD's improve depth perception at larger distances because it seems that there is a hard limit across all VR games at about ~20 meters

It's a resolution thing.

 

[Durante]

How I figured it worked as well. With this in mind, and assuming the scaled resolution becomes the baseline value in Valve's adaptive scaling, it makes each scaling step significantly larger.

The thing is, the values between each step were tuned with the prediction algorithm to provide the best quality and response without overshooting hardware capabilities. With an altered base, it could cause intermittent frame timing issues by overshooting, or even cause it to reduce below baseline because the steps are larger. Considering the steps contain more than resolution (AA, radial masking, etc), this could be playing with fire a bit for that renderer.

I think as long as you don't go too extreme it should be fine. The steps will be relatively larger, but on a high-end system their relative impact will still be manageable. It's not ideal obviously compared to e.g. simply having even higher targets in the native scaling algorithm.

Generally though, I think this override is primarily useful for stuff which isn't nearly as high-quality inherently as the Lab is. (Which applies to the vast majority of VR content at this point really)

Even at 2.0 Elite is a shimmering and aliasing feast !

We just need a higher res display, really.

Shimmering and aliasing aren't something a higher-res display alone could fix, honestly. In particular, if there is shimmer which is not fixed by a higher rendering resolution then it doesn't matter whether you can present that resolution natively or downsampled.

On the other hand, the depth perception brought up above actually is a physical resolution issue.

 

[Odrion]

So how do you play Elite Dangerous in VR with a Hotas? It seems like the game still relies on the keyboard and you can't really use that.

 

[bomblord1]

So how do you play Elite Dangerous in VR with a Hotas? It seems like the game still relies on the keyboard and you can't really use that.

I thought it supported voice commands

 

[Dario ff]

It's no surprise people are seeing considerable benefits from the games that don't multiply that base resolution. Even if it's 1.4x over the native display, it isn't that much different than what a native 1:1 image would look like (pixel-density wise) considering the actual amount of the texture that is displayed on the HMD. I did this with Valve's own distortion mesh provided by the OpenVR API, but it's not much different to what their compositor does AFAIK.

A considerable chunk of the render target gets cut off by default. Certainly considering putting a mesh over the non-visible areas and finding some way to render at middle of the texture in higher quality than the borders to take advantage of the distortion.

 

[Zalusithix]

I thought it supported voice commands

Natively? No. You can use external programs to provide that functionality however.

 

[Onemic]

It's a resolution thing.

Oh is that all it is? Here's hoping for 1080P per eye at the very least for gen 2 headsets then.

 

[Paganmoon]

Oh is that all it is? Here's hoping for 1080P per eye at the very least for gen 2 headsets then.

I'd rather the focus on comfort first. Copy PSVR right off. Then they can focus on the display.

 

[GlamFM]

Oh is that all it is? Here's hoping for 1080P per eye at the very least for gen 2 headsets then.

I'm hoping for way more actually.

 

[Tain]

I really hope that the next gen HMD's improve depth perception at larger distances because it seems that there is a hard limit across all VR games at about ~20 meters

Agreed. This is the biggest benefit to a resolution increase, for me.

 

[Onemic]

I'm hoping for way more actually.

It would be great if it was something like 1440P or more per eye, but Im thinking that it would be too taxing on most of todays non-top-of-the-line hardware to make it feasable. Nvidias multi projection only works on Pascal cards and AMD doesnt have a similar solution that I'm aware of, so you'd be really limiting your potential audience with such an increased resolution. This is assuming that gen 2 headsets would come out no later than the end of 2017.

 

[GlamFM]

It would be great if it was something like 1440P or more per eye, but Im thinking that it would be too taxing on most of todays non-top-of-the-line hardware to make it feasable. Nvidias multi projection only works on Pascal cards and AMD doesnt have a similar solution that I'm aware of, so you'd be really limiting your potential audience with such an increased resolution. This is assuming that gen 2 headsets would come out no later than the end of 2017.

I know, it's unfortunate. I hope the PS4k and the new XBOX will give the entire technology a huge push.

 

[Trouble]

So how do you play Elite Dangerous in VR with a Hotas? It seems like the game still relies on the keyboard and you can't really use that.

I play it with a controller. The advanced control pad scheme makes everything you need for normal play available. Having a Steam controller is especially nice because you can map lateral thrust to the paddles.

Also, you just look at the left and right UI panels to activate them, which is rad.

I imagine if it's doable with a controller, then it's doable with HOTAS.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"So how do you play Elite Dangerous in VR with a Hotas? It seems like the game still relies on the keyboard and you can't really use that."

Map everything you need, set one button aside as a modifier button, continue mapping commands using the modifier button.

 

[| Praxis |]

I play it with a controller. The advanced control pad scheme makes everything you need for normal play available. Having a Steam controller is especially nice because you can map lateral thrust to the paddles.

Also, you just look at the left and right UI panels to activate them, which is rad.

I imagine if it's doable with a controller, then it's doable with HOTAS.

I think you lose so much playing it with a controller though. That's how I started, even though I had a hotas in the cupboard, I took the time to set it up and there's no going back.

I have the stick and throttle in pretty much the exact place you do in game, it is so much more immersive being able to look down and see your movements replicated.

 

[marc^o^]

Guys.

Rec Room is the best VR thing I've seen so far. If you are reading this now, join the group of people who are in the lobby at this very moment, they made me laugh so hard.

This is the future of social interactions. Mind blowing experience.

 

[AwesomeMeat]

"So how do you play Elite Dangerous in VR with a Hotas? It seems like the game still relies on the keyboard and you can't really use that."

Map everything you need, set one button aside as a modifier button, continue mapping commands using the modifier button.

On top of that VoiceAttack is your friend. You also feel like such a bad ass screaming commands to your ship while in the middle of a dog fight. Power Weapons! ::BOOOM:: Power Systems! Cargo Scoop! HYPER JUMP!

 

[Trouble]

I think you lose so much playing it with a controller though. That's how I started, even though I had a hotas in the cupboard, I took the time to set it up and there's no going back.

I have the stick and throttle in pretty much the exact place you do in game, it is so much more immersive being able to look down and see your movements replicated.

I want to figure out a solution that would let me mount a hotas on my office chair in a similar position to the game, but it would also need to be easily removable so that I can push my chair under the desk and do room-scale stuff. So far I haven't found anything that looks promising, lots of very custom solutions out that people come up with. So for now it's the controller.

 

[Arulan]

So how do you play Elite Dangerous in VR with a Hotas? It seems like the game still relies on the keyboard and you can't really use that.

I'm not sure what you mean. Aside from communication with other players, you can just assign everything to HOTAS.

Not my bindings, but something I pulled from an image search:

 

[Hawkian]

Damn, got held up by analog reality all night, didn't get to do much of anything. I did snap a couple pictures of the lighthouses. Couldn't get focus on one of them but I think you can make out all the lights. They seem to have the same sets of lights as far as I can tell, do they look right?

 

[jaypah]

Yeah, unfortunately it looks like your lighthouses have the right amount of "dots".

 

[Wallach]

Damn, got held up by analog reality all night, didn't get to do much of anything. I did snap a couple pictures of the lighthouses. Couldn't get focus on one of them but I think you can make out all the lights. They seem to have the same sets of lights as far as I can tell, do they look right?

Looks like it to me. Both the horizontal and vertical sweeping LEDs seem active in both base stations.

Have you tried switching locations of the two base stations to see if it is that particular position that gives bad tracking, or if the "bad" one from the first test would still give bad tracking in the opposite corner?

 

[wwm0nkey]

AudioShield is the best thing ever

 

[thematic]

AudioShield is the best thing ever

yeah, it's good
too bad for me, some of the orb didn't exactly match the rhythm

 

[electroflame]

too bad for me, some of the orb didn't exactly match the rhythm

That's really what hinders my enjoyment, honestly. Granted, I'm a pretty musical person (piano, guitar) and have a good sense of rhythm, so maybe it's just exacerbated for me.

The way that the "notes" incoming speed can change also really screws with my rhythm. I get that there can be tempo changes, etc. but when you have a target moving at a near-constant speed, only to very quickly decelerate when it's slightly out of arms-reach can really screw up the flow of a song.

I'm really hoping they add user-created tabs/note layouts, as the beat detection algorithm can only do so much. I feel like it could be really killer -- basically VRs version of DDR, or Rock Band/Rocksmith/Guitar Hero, but there's definitely some rhythm/timing issues really holding it back.

Or maybe it's only obvious if you've played an instrument? I get the same feeling playing certain songs as I would if I played an instrument off-beat. Not impossible, but definitely not enjoyable.