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HTC Vive Launch Thread -- Computer, activate holodeck

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Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Bah! Covering up or removing every remotely reflecting surface in the room didn't fix it. I don't mean "it didn't help that much," I mean literally no difference with zero objects covered versus all of them. None of them were remotely mirrored surfaces, and it would have been a huge pain to have to do that to get it working, so that's some small relief.

Still, I'm veering toward pissed. I've done something like a dozen hours of searching and troubleshooting attempts at this point, and not only has nothing I've seen suggested fixed it but nothing seems to even have any impact. It can't possibly be something that people just live with, it's extremely distracting and annoying to me even when just doing basic/nonintensive things. Before when I was just playing around with the thing with my 780 and it was happening I figured fine, what the hell, I'm trying to get this thing to perform below spec and can't expect it to be perfect. But now I'm well over the recommended reqs and I can literally experience this issue just looking around my holodeck SteamVR environment.

I'm pretty perplexed, don't know how to determine if I'm looking at some kind of defective hardware here or if it's something I still haven't pinned down about my particular setup. I don't have a practical way of setting the whole thing up somewhere else.

Performance besides this seems to be phenomenal, which sort of feels like it's mocking me at this point :p "Check out how incredible this would be if not for this constantly distracting issue pulling you out of the experience!" Sucks. I was so pumped for this thing and I've now kind of invested on the order of $1,500 in it and the whole experience is marred. I haven't been able to really enjoy anything past the initial "wow" once I noticed the problem, and that was a month ago. :(
Damn!

That still really sounds like a framerate issue, but it's hard to diagnose this stuff over the 'net, especially for VR.

I still wonder about conflicting software. How consistent is this judder? Does it have like a predictable cadence if you continuously rotate around?
Ha, can SteamVR run in safe mode? I guess the next thing I try will be to just start closing processes one by one to see if anything is the culprit. Crazy thing is that I used to use f.lux on my previous PC but it hasn't touched this one.

As far as consistent/predictable, that's a little tough to say. It does not seem to be a regular cadence like microstuttering in a traditional game. I've noticed that (at least from my perspective) it only occurs in a remotely noticeable way when moving my head. If I just keep my head perfectly still and watch something animated, there are no skips. But it's easily reproducible when even just standing still and looking around The Lab; looking around while walking it's worse (either actually more pronounced, or just feels like it because of how disorienting that is). However, it doesn't always happen when looking at the exact same spot or anything like that, and sometimes feels more frequent than others.
Zalusithix said:
Out of curiosity, are your controllers stable? No visible jitter? Have you ever run the jitter test on your setup? Tried intentionally disabling one lighthouse and getting closer to the other?
Controllers seem completely 100% stable to me- haven't noticed anything amiss with them at all.

What's the jitter test! I wanna run it! And I didn't even realize the system would run with just one lighthouse. Just unplug one at the wall and start up SteamVR?
 
So I'm late to the party
or very early
and I took the plunge and ordered a Vive online. It should be here in a week or so. What are things I should be aware of like free things or games that are currently on sale on Steam or just cool things that the Vive/VR can do that aren't obvious to someone that hasn't followed VR? So excited!
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Hm, The Lab has also crashed on me a bajillion times tonight.
I'm guessing you've already tried the manual sync cable just to verify it's not some sync issue between the two lighthouses?
No actually, I'll try that right now and then see about trying each one independently.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Controllers seem completely 100% stable to me- haven't noticed anything amiss with them at all.

What's the jitter test! I wanna run it! And I didn't even realize the system would run with just one lighthouse. Just unplug one at the wall and start up SteamVR?

The jitter test is just a simple program to detect how much error is in your tracking due to lighthouse distance, vibrations and the likes. If your controllers don't have any visible movement to you, I doubt you have any serious issues on that end. Just would have been a convenient reason, because if it was bad enough, it could cause the image to shift rapidly in the HMD even when the headset was still.

And yes, the system can run with only one lighthouse. It'll complain, and obviously 360 tracking will be dead, but it should run. Only reason I suggest it is to completely rule out the the two lighthouses interfering with eachother's tracking for some bizarre reason, or to possibly detect a bum lighthouse.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Okay, interesting.

With the lighthouse that was originally "c" off, the issue was still there and way amplified. It occurred near constantly while looking around The Lab and crossed the line from constant annoyance to actually unplayably disorienting.

With the lighthouse that was originally "b" off, and the other one switched to "b" (this was the only way I could get the system to boot at all with just this one on), the issue was still there... but much, much less frequent. Occurring at about 1/10th the frequency as when both were on. I'd describe this as being a playable level. I noticed it every so often, but it didn't completely yank me out of the scene and I'd probably stop noticing it while doing something. rather than being interrupted. I was able to make several visual sweeps of The Lab without seeing a skip, for the first time. Like a duck to water here I almost immediately forgot what I was supposed to be doing and started having actual fun. Apparently from Xortex you unlock a remote controllable drone that you can aim and fly around the lobby and kill the Aperture stick people? That's fucking awesome. This stuff is so right up my alley, if I can just get past this shit I know I'll be enjoying the hell out of VR :[

Then The Lab crashed, so back to harsh reality for the moment.

Zalusithix, you have my thanks here for sure, this is the first progress of any kind I feel like I have made with this issue. So what's my next step? Is my first "b" Lighthouse likely faulty? I can try moving it around to some extent, although I already installed the wall mounts -_- Or could just the one lighthouse need to be recalibrated or something?

edit: Well, done for the night. Maybe tomorrow I can get things going to the point where I can actually review this thing. I leave you with this gif of someone's proof of concept:

https://gfycat.com/AlertUnrulyBluebreastedkookaburra
 

Glass

Member
Bah, despite having ordered mine days ago, the money was just put in my account by PC World. They were due to be available today. Hopefully just a glitch. Have a lan next weekend, would love to be able to bring this to it.
 

Doc Ok

Neo Member
I guess I'm missing something here. In my control case...

...how would it know whether the rotation calculated by the IMU (say 6 degrees) is correct or not from that?

To your first point: I missed that you were posing a thought experiment. Yes, if you were able to hold the controller's glowy ball perfectly still, camera-based drift correction wouldn't work. In practice, the ball won't be perfectly still for extended periods.

To your second point: rotational drift builds up slowly, and drift around any axis but the "down" axis can be corrected by measuring the direction of gravity via the IMU's accelerometers. On short time frames, say between camera images at 30 or 60 Hz, gyroscopes are highly accurate, and drift is practically zero. For example, Google Cardboard uses uncorrected IMU integration for its orientation tracking, and it works fairly well.

I'm showing the difference in rotational and positional drift build-up in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q_8d0E3tDk
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
To your first point: I missed that you were posing a thought experiment. Yes, if you were able to hold the controller's glowy ball perfectly still, camera-based drift correction wouldn't work. In practice, the ball won't be perfectly still for extended periods.

To your second point: rotational drift builds up slowly, and drift around any axis but the "down" axis can be corrected by measuring the direction of gravity via the IMU's accelerometers. On short time frames, say between camera images at 30 or 60 Hz, gyroscopes are highly accurate, and drift is practically zero. For example, Google Cardboard uses uncorrected IMU integration for its orientation tracking, and it works fairly well.

I'm showing the difference in rotational and positional drift build-up in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q_8d0E3tDk

so effectively move should be able to do good enough quality rotational tracking without the need for an external sensor (providing it has good quality gyros and magnetometer which I think it does). Only positional sensing requires the external camera for constant calibration?
 

Hari Seldon

Member
No clue whether anything has changed since then.

They updated it again yesterday and had better instructions to get it working.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=713397265

You have to disable direct mode and edit a file. The GUI is a mess in VR atm, and the frame rate is not very good right now. I didn't have much time to mess with all of the settings, but it wasn't very smooth on the second lowest graphical setting with my 1070 rig. This is very much an early access vive support. I would say hold off on buying it unless you want to play this game anyway without VR. I was definitely getting a little bit sick while playing it due to the frame rate.

That said, flying in VR is amazing , your situational awareness is incredible with VR. Every sim from now on should support VR out of the gate imo.

I'll mess with it more over the next few days and see if I can get it to run smooth.
 

SomTervo

Member
Seems to be no difference with lighthouses connected by the sync cable in A/b mode. Will try with each off now

What Durante said - try taking a picture of the possibly dodgy sensor with your phone then look and check all the lights are active with the two extra lights to the bottom and the right.
 
Well, that escalated quickly! 0_o

My MSI GTX 1070 turned up today which will be a nice replacement for my trusty workhorse GTX 670. House mate comes back for lunch to pick up some tools to rescue a friends car, we've both been waiting to jump in to VR but nowhere had them in stock with a reasonable delivery time... until today and now i have a HTC Vive being delivered tomorrow before noon.

If you're in the UK then Currys/PCWorld have had HTC Vive stock arrive today.

What have i done? My poor wallet :(

edit: my room won't allow much roomscale at the moment but even for just sit down/stand up experiences it should be worth it. Can't wait, just hope i can set it up decently in limited space and that i don't vom. I should be ok, i did 20 minutes on Occulus at work with no problems whatsoever which is what prompted me to jump in earlier than planned.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Okay, interesting.

With the lighthouse that was originally "c" off, the issue was still there and way amplified. It occurred near constantly while looking around The Lab and crossed the line from constant annoyance to actually unplayably disorienting.

With the lighthouse that was originally "b" off, and the other one switched to "b" (this was the only way I could get the system to boot at all with just this one on), the issue was still there... but much, much less frequent. Occurring at about 1/10th the frequency as when both were on. I'd describe this as being a playable level. I noticed it every so often, but it didn't completely yank me out of the scene and I'd probably stop noticing it while doing something. rather than being interrupted. I was able to make several visual sweeps of The Lab without seeing a skip, for the first time. Like a duck to water here I almost immediately forgot what I was supposed to be doing and started having actual fun. Apparently from Xortex you unlock a remote controllable drone that you can aim and fly around the lobby and kill the Aperture stick people? That's fucking awesome. This stuff is so right up my alley, if I can just get past this shit I know I'll be enjoying the hell out of VR :[

Then The Lab crashed, so back to harsh reality for the moment.

Zalusithix, you have my thanks here for sure, this is the first progress of any kind I feel like I have made with this issue. So what's my next step? Is my first "b" Lighthouse likely faulty? I can try moving it around to some extent, although I already installed the wall mounts -_- Or could just the one lighthouse need to be recalibrated or something?

edit: Well, done for the night. Maybe tomorrow I can get things going to the point where I can actually review this thing. I leave you with this gif of someone's proof of concept:

https://gfycat.com/AlertUnrulyBluebreastedkookaburra
Well, at least it looks like you're getting somewhere. The next logical test would be reversing the lighthouse locations and retesting to confirm whether it's actually lighthouse or location related. If a given lighthouse gives the same performance characteristics in the opposite location, obviously at least one of them is bunk. If the problem flips from one lighthouse to the other, then it's positional.

Also, as mentioned, check that everything is lit up. The lasers and LED array are both essential. Lasers without the sync pulse from the LED array, or a dead laser would screw up tracking.

To your first point: I missed that you were posing a thought experiment. Yes, if you were able to hold the controller's glowy ball perfectly still, camera-based drift correction wouldn't work. In practice, the ball won't be perfectly still for extended periods.

To your second point: rotational drift builds up slowly, and drift around any axis but the "down" axis can be corrected by measuring the direction of gravity via the IMU's accelerometers. On short time frames, say between camera images at 30 or 60 Hz, gyroscopes are highly accurate, and drift is practically zero. For example, Google Cardboard uses uncorrected IMU integration for its orientation tracking, and it works fairly well.

I'm showing the difference in rotational and positional drift build-up in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q_8d0E3tDk
OK, good, I'm not going crazy lol. I was aware you could use gravitational force to reign in rotational error as long as it was tilted. Not perfect as you'd need to separate gravity from user induced forces while moving, but it's something. Between gravity, a magnetometer reading, and the controller's positional relationship to the headset (which has an absolute pose) combined with IK, there should theoretically be enough ways to correct rotational drift.

I'm not really concerned about massive rotational drift happening. Just small but still noticeable amounts before it's corrected. If the Vive has taught me anything, it's that we're quite sensitive to small errors. Also that even with an advanced tracking model, it's still subject to problems. The Move has very little redundancy in its sensing. It's more than good enough for screen based play, but I can't help but wonder how it'll stack up in VR when the 689 pound gorilla in the room isn't perfect.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Double post, but totally unrelated to tracking stuff. The odd RX480 DP thread got me thinking for a bit about using DP exclusively with VR and dropping HDMI. Outside of raw bandwidth that is.

DP supports multiple physical displays over one cable subject to the maximum bandwidth available. VR sets are technically multiple displays now. But beyond that, four independent streams at differing resolutions could be sent to the headset at once without breaking any spec.

Why four? Harkening back to a conversation with Krej: foveated rendering. Instead of wasting time compositing a massive frame on the GPU and sending it over as a single image, send it as L-Center, L-Peripheral, R-Center, R-Peripheral streams and have the headset scale and recompose the L and R streams with dedicated hardware. Could easily send 4K+ foveated rendering resolutions down an existing DP cable without the need for any new standard. Could also try using different refresh rates. Render the periphery higher than the center? (Peripheral vision detail detection is lower, but more sensitive to motion.) Or render both parts at the same framerate, but allow one to fall to half framerate if needed? So many options.

And while I'm musing on crazy ideas, has seprate eye updates ever been tried? Right now we toss and reproject the entire L&R bundle if rendering time goes too far. Well, single GPU systems render the eyes in a series. One eye will almost always be done. It's just the other eye that wont be. What happens if we send the finished eye a truly updated frame and reproject the remaining eye? Then render in a LRRLLRRLLRRL pattern so the reprojected eye will typically alternate.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Double post, but totally unrelated to tracking stuff. The odd RX480 DP thread got me thinking for a bit about using DP exclusively with VR and dropping HDMI. Outside of raw bandwidth that is.

DP supports multiple physical displays over one cable subject to the maximum bandwidth available. VR sets are technically multiple displays now. But beyond that, four independent streams at differing resolutions could be sent to the headset at once without breaking any spec.

Why four? Harkening back to a conversation with Krej: foveated rendering. Instead of wasting time compositing a massive frame on the GPU and sending it over as a single image, send it as L-Center, L-Peripheral, R-Center, R-Peripheral streams and have the headset scale and recompose the L and R streams with dedicated hardware. Could easily send 4K+ foveated rendering resolutions down an existing DP cable without the need for any new standard. Could also try using different refresh rates. Render the periphery higher than the center? (Peripheral vision detail detection is lower, but more sensitive to motion.) Or render both parts at the same framerate, but allow one to fall to half framerate if needed? So many options.

And while I'm musing on crazy ideas, has seprate eye updates ever been tried? Right now we toss and reproject the entire L&R bundle if rendering time goes too far. Well, single GPU systems render the eyes in a series. One eye will almost always be done. It's just the other eye that wont be. What happens if we send the finished eye a truly updated frame and reproject the remaining eye? Then render in a LRRLLRRLLRRL pattern so the reprojected eye will typically alternate.

Yeah I suggested compositing on the headset when thinking about wireless displays and the need to keep bandwidth down. I guess you could also send a 4K peripheral image as 1080p (or lower?) and have the headset scale it before drawing to save even more bandwidth. I hope there is a lot of innovation can be done in this area to push forward both higher resolutions and wireless VR
 

Zalusithix

Member
Yeah I suggested compositing on the headset when thinking about wireless displays and the need to keep bandwidth down. I guess you could also send a 4K peripheral image as 1080p (or lower?) and have the headset scale it before drawing to save even more bandwidth. I hope there is a lot of innovation can be done in this area to push forward both higher resolutions and wireless VR

Wireless would require a new video transmission standard though. WiFi isn't cut out for it and none of the existing wireless display protocols are designed around multiple independent streams. Certainly none that can handle the bandwidth needed without breaking the frame up, nor the low latency requirements. The beauty of DP is that it already exists. We have the cables, the GPUs already support MST. I'm not sure why I didn't think about MST back in the original conversation. It's practically begging to be used.

Frankly I'm not sure why the Rift and Vive have been designed primarily around HDMI to begin with. Any modern VR capable card is going to have DP.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Wireless would require a new video transmission standard though. WiFi isn't cut out for it and none of the existing wireless display protocols are designed around multiple independent streams. Certainly none that can handle the bandwidth needed without breaking the frame up, nor the low latency requirements. The beauty of DP is that it already exists. We have the cables, the GPUs already support MST. I'm not sure why I didn't think about MST back in the original conversation. It's practically begging to be used.

Frankly I'm not sure why the Rift and Vive have been designed primarily around HDMI to begin with. Any modern VR capable card is going to have DP.

Ah, but to mitigate some of the latency, you'd handle reprojection on the headset directly :)
 

Zalusithix

Member
Ah, but to mitigate some of the latency, you'd handle reprojection on the headset directly :)

Reprojection wont reduce the motion to photon latency. Reprojection can mask some aspects of it such as movement of the head. Anything actually moving within the frame independently from your view will have the total latency time though. Like the movement of your hands.
 

Trouble

Banned
I bought a bunch of games on the first day of the Steam sale that I haven't touched because I also bought Elite Dangerous. It's the Space Truck Simulator 3302 I've always wanted, but didn't know existed.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Unseen Diplomacy is the same thing in short game form.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KirQtdsG5yE
looks amazing, but I only have a ~3x3 space. :(
Hawkian, just to make sure, did you check that all the LEDs on both of your lighthouses are working?
What Durante said - try taking a picture of the possibly dodgy sensor with your phone then look and check all the lights are active with the two extra lights to the bottom and the right.
Also, as mentioned, check that everything is lit up. The lasers and LED array are both essential. Lasers without the sync pulse from the LED array, or a dead laser would screw up tracking.
Will check this as soon as I get home. It looked to me like they all were lit but I'll compare to a refenrence pic.
Well, at least it looks like you're getting somewhere. The next logical test would be reversing the lighthouse locations and retesting to confirm whether it's actually lighthouse or location related. If a given lighthouse gives the same performance characteristics in the opposite location, obviously at least one of them is bunk. If the problem flips from one lighthouse to the other, then it's positional.
Brilliant. I can do that without removing the mounts from the wall, so that's my next step.

Thank you all for the help troubleshooting here.
 

koji kabuto

Member
I got my Vive 1 month ago and got the HDMI output on my GTX 980 TI acting crazy the same freaking day.

l'v been eyeing the ASUS ROG Strix GTX 1080 for quite some time now so i went and bought it to replace my gtx 980 ti.

so now after i setup everything and for now everything is going more than great here is my questions:

1- How can i play 360 videos ? Youtube or other sources.


2- Can i use the Vive with games that doesn't support it officially ?
 
1- How can i play 360 videos ? Youtube or other sources.


2- Can i use the Vive with games that doesn't support it officially ?

1) Virtual Desktop. There may be free programs as well but I'd consider Virtual Desktop to be a must have anyway.
2) Yes. ReVive for Oculus-exclusive games (works super well) and VorpX (not free, reportedly doesn't work too well).

Speaking of, someone needs to mod Mirror's Edge for VR. Either the original or Catalyst, but it needs to happen.
 

koji kabuto

Member
1) Virtual Desktop. There may be free programs as well but I'd consider Virtual Desktop to be a must have anyway.
2) Yes. ReVive for Oculus-exclusive games (works super well) and VorpX (not free, reportedly doesn't work too well).

Speaking of, someone needs to mod Mirror's Edge for VR. Either the original or Catalyst, but it needs to happen.

Thanks! i just bought the Virtual Desktop!

ill take a look the Revive and Vorpx and let you guys know!
 

bomblord1

Banned
looks amazing, but I only have a ~3x3 space. :(



Will check this as soon as I get home. It looked to me like they all were lit but I'll compare to a refenrence pic.

Brilliant. I can do that without removing the mounts from the wall, so that's my next step.

Thank you all for the help troubleshooting here.

I'm sorry I'm jumping in a bit late here any chance you could take some pictures of your play area with the lighthouses in the pictures? There might be occlusion issues that you are not noticing or are immediately obvious. I would also run a firmware update on your vive headset.
 

Alexlf

Member
You lucky duck! I never felt motion sick in my life until VR, and VR sickness can literally incapacitate me for hours.

I've been messing around since the DK1 and originally got CRAZY motion sick, but it seems you get used to it. I can play windlands now for hours on end, no problem.
 

Despera

Banned
Is A Chair in a Room worth $20? I've really been hankering for a scary VR game, but nothing has looked all that good.
It's up there as one of the best Vive games available now. Probably the only Vive adventure title that felt whole and complete to me.

Only problem is the wonky physics when handling objects, but other than that I highly reccomend it.

I'm a big horror fan, and even then I almost never feel fear from playing these games. A Chair in a Room though, especially after the halfway point had some moments that made me feel things I never felt in any traditional horror game before. Hell, on my 2nd playthrough I caught stuff I missed the first time that startled me.

Just make sure if you play it to not be discouraged by the weak first 2 chapters. It gets much better afterwards. And yeah, make sure the volume is adequately high for the best experience as sound design is pretty decent in the game.
 
I've been messing around since the DK1 and originally got CRAZY motion sick, but it seems you get used to it. I can play windlands now for hours on end, no problem.
I'm definitely more resistant than I used to be, but I have a long ways to go.
It's up there as one of the best Vive games available now. Probably the only Vive adventure title that felt whole and complete to me.

Only problem is the wonky physics when handling objects, but other than that I highly reccomend it.

I'm a big horror fan, and even then I almost never feel fear from playing these games. A Chair in a Room though, especially after the halfway point had some moments that made me feel things I never felt in any traditional horror game before. Hell, on my 2nd playthrough I caught stuff I missed the first time that startled me.

Just make sure if you play it to not be discouraged by the weak first 2 chapters. It gets much better afterwards. And yeah, make sure the volume is adequately high for the best experience as sound design is pretty decent in the game.

That's great to hear! I love horror games too, and have really been hoping for a high-quality VR game. Hopefully this will do the job for now.
 

GlamFM

Banned
OMG GUYS!

Just downloaded the ChaperoneSwitcher and set the Render Target Mulitplier to 2.0

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
What is all of that? O_O
RenderTargetMultiplier increases your image quality (essentially by downsampling, as I understand it). I'm looking forward to playing around with it after I get my tracking issue sorted. Don't necessarily just go to 2.0, you can mess around with it to find the best performance/IQ your rig can handle. It seemingly defaults to 1.0 so even 1.5 is a marked increase.
 

AwesomeMeat

PossumMeat
RenderTargetMultiplier increases your image quality (essentially by downsampling, as I understand it). I'm looking forward to playing around with it after I get my tracking issue sorted. Don't necessarily just go to 2.0, you can mess around with it to find the best performance/IQ your rig can handle. It seemingly defaults to 1.0 so even 1.5 is a marked increase.

I thought the general consensus was that it defaulted to 1.4?
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
I thought the general consensus was that it defaulted to 1.4?
I know what you're referring to and I haven't been able to find a concrete answer on the default resolution that is downsampled to the vive screens, but I meant that when you open ChaperoneSwitcher at least the default value seems to be 1.0.
 

GlamFM

Banned
I know what you're referring to and I haven't been able to find a concrete answer on the default resolution that is downsampled to the vive screens, but I meant that when you open ChaperoneSwitcher at least the default value seems to be 1.0.

Correct
 
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