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[Zaptruder]

Americans and their dehumanizing of the underclass is pretty fucking wretched.

"If they want to live in not shitty rotten circumstances, they should just work harder. Heh."

Meanwhile, in Australia, people work harder to live in better circumstances - even when they're not subject to shitty rotten circumstances.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

McDonalds is pretty badass in terms of trying to retain and train motivated entry-level employees and bringing them into much higher-paying jobs. I know this because one of my high school buddies did this. He couldn't find work after high school any other place and didn't want to go to college. They paid for all his training as they brought him through their program. He went to their "Hamburger University" and everything. He reluctantly left two years ago, but says he'd go back in a heartbeat. Now he's a regional manager for a logistics company making better money than most of my friends with advanced degrees.

I'm not a fan of their products at all, but McDonalds isn't the devil.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

That's actually very interesting. Can you provide how you arrived at the 20% increase in prices to double the crew payroll?

Payroll equals 20% of total COGS. If you double their hourly wage, payroll now equals a staggering 40% of total COGS. The only way to keep the same annual operating net income is to raise revenue (sales) by the same percentage increase in payroll expenses, thus the 20% increase in sales price.

 

[iamblades]

Americans and their dehumanizing of the underclass is pretty fucking wretched.

"If they want to live in not shitty rotten circumstances, they should just work harder. Heh."

Meanwhile, in Australia, people work harder to live in better circumstances - even when they're not subject to shitty rotten circumstances.

Something something cost of living.

Australia is the perfect example of the results of a high minimum wage, everything costs about double, so nothing is accomplished at all.

 

[Camp Lo]

A good portion of them are excellent employees, at least from what I've encountered.

Thus, those who perform well should be rewarded. A blanket raise is not fair just like $7.25/hr is "not fair."

You're right. They should be judged on their performance. I worked at McDonalds during high school making 5.15 an hour. I took the job serious; now, it seems like nearly no one takes it serious.

Plus, everything is automated now and yet orders are still wrong.

 

[Meier]

Isn't that roughly 30k? That's not exactly tons of money.

You're right, it's not.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Americans and their dehumanizing of the underclass is pretty fucking wretched.

"If they want to live in not shitty rotten circumstances, they should just work harder. Heh."

Meanwhile, in Australia, people work harder to live in better circumstances - even when they're not subject to shitty rotten circumstances.

Apples to oranges argument. I grew up in America my whole life and lived in Australia so believe me this comparison is completely irrelevant.

 

[Vyroxis]

15 an hour? They can go to hell with that crap. I've been at my job for ten years, and barely make more than that as a shift supervisor. Nevermind that their jobs are about as unskilled as you can get. Talk about delusional.

 

[Seguin]

McDonalds is pretty badass in terms of trying to retain and train motivated entry-level employees and bringing them into much higher-paying jobs. I know this because one of my high school buddies did this. He couldn't find work after high school any other place and didn't want to go to college. They paid for all his training as they brought him through their program. He went to their "Hamburger University" and everything. He reluctantly left two years ago, but says he'd go back in a heartbeat. Now he's a regional manager for a logistics company making better money than most of my friends with advanced degrees.

I'm not a fan of their products at all, but McDonalds isn't the devil.

yea that's a totally normal situation for McDonalds employees

 

[goldenpp72]

Do strikes that use totally unskilled workers ever work? Just curious.

 

[Zaptruder]

Something something cost of living.

Australia is the perfect example of the results of a high minimum wage, everything costs about double, so nothing is accomplished at all.

While I don't know the prices for basic essentials in America - I'd imagine the differential from our major cities to your major cities can't possibly be that massive.

As a result, it is imminently more livable on an Australian minimum wage in an australian city than an American minimum wage in an American city.

You certainly won't be living a life of cushy luxury in Australia on minimum wage - but you're not going to be trapped into a negative financial spiral from which recourse is extraordinarily difficult.

Apples to oranges argument. I grew up in America my whole life and lived in Australia so believe me this comparison is completely irrelevant.

Elaborate further on your assertion please.

More to the point - I think you're missing the point of the comparison. Which is simply - if you pay people a livable wage at minimum, they'll still have incentive to work harder.

 

[Grimm Fandango]

White collar jobs are not harder to perform, they are harder to obtain.

While true, people put in years of work towards a white collar job. You need like 2 weeks training for fast food.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

yea that's a totally normal situation for McDonalds employees

Actually, every McDonalds employee starts with the exact same training program and has the same opportunities to get further training. It's a well-established curriculum. It's up to the employee to take advantage as far as their work ethic and aptitude will take them, but the opportunities are there.

We all live in a performance-based society. McDonalds is no different.

 

[Apeopleman]

Actually, every McDonalds employee starts with the exact same training program and has the same opportunities to get further training. It's a well-established curriculum. It's up to the employee to take advantage as far as their work ethic and aptitude will take them, but the opportunities are there.

We all live in a performance-based society. McDonalds is no different.

I understand your view, but Mcdonalds on anyone's resume isn't flattering at all. Might as well not even list it, unless you're applying to another fast food business.

 

[iamblades]

While I don't know the prices for basic essentials in America - I'd imagine the differential from our major cities to your major cities can't possibly be that massive.

As a result, it is imminently more livable on an Australian minimum wage in an australian city than an American minimum wage in an American city.

You certainly won't be living a life of cushy luxury in Australia on minimum wage - but you're not going to be trapped into a negative financial spiral from which recourse is extraordinarily difficult.



Elaborate further on your assertion please.

More to the point - I think you're missing the point of the comparison. Which is simply - if you pay people a livable wage at minimum, they'll still have incentive to work harder.

Not sure if this site is 100% accurate, but the numbers look right:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp
Rank by CPI see which cites are up at the top, then rank by purchasing power and see.

I thought it was well known(and complained about by Australians) that they have basically the highest cost of living on the planet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_cities_for_expatriate_employees

I count 4 Australian cities on that list before the first US city, and NYC is a bit of an outlier as far as US cost of living goes. All the other big US cities are WAY down the list. When you get into the midsize cities in the midwest or south, the difference between Australia and the US becomes enormous.

 

[Zaptruder]

Actually, every McDonalds employee starts with the exact same training program and has the same opportunities to get further training. It's a well-established curriculum. It's up to the employee to take advantage as far as their work ethic and aptitude will take them, but the opportunities are there.

We all live in a performance-based society. McDonalds is no different.

This is less true than it is true unfortunately.

 

[Loofy]

You certainly won't be living a life of cushy luxury in Australia on minimum wage - but you're not going to be trapped into a negative financial spiral from which recourse is extraordinarily difficult.

I doubt thats the case in america either(minus the healthcare situation). Lotta hyperbole in this thread.
Apparently everyone making minimum wage is eventually driven to homelessness. yeah. right. Tell that to my aunt who raised her kid by herself in chicago with a little job at circuit city.

 

[jchap]

As an engineer, I foresee a lucrative market for fast food automation

 

[Izayoi]

Wow, what? I'm all for paying competent people a decent wage but my experiences with fast food joints is they don't give a shit about the food or their job performance so fuck them.

Limited anecdotal evidence is definitely a legitimate reason to tell tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of people "Fuck you." So someone working a shitty job day-in-and-day-out accidentally got your order wrong, big fucking deal. You've worked fast food, you know that not everything is perfect all the time, you should know better.

I'm sorry if this comes off as harsh, but if you have children on a minimum wage job, you are irresponsible beyond measure, and I really have trouble working up sympathy for people in problems of their own making.

Therein lies the problem. Proper education about the negative impact of having children at a young age is often not taught effectively, if at all. Contraceptives can be expensive, and are not always provided for free. You were a teenager once, I'm sure you know how effective it is to tell high schoolers to just "not have sex". Pushing abstinence programs instead of actively making contraceptives available to kids is undoubtedly a very large contributing factor to poverty. This issues are all far more complicated than many in thread are making them out to be.

Americans and their dehumanizing of the underclass is pretty fucking wretched.

Capitalism in motion!

 

[Zaptruder]

Not sure if this site is 100% accurate, but the numbers look right:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp
Rank by CPI see which cites are up at the top, then rank by purchasing power and see.

I thought it was well known(and complained about by Australians) that they have basically the highest cost of living on the planet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_cities_for_expatriate_employees

I count 4 Australian cities on that list before the first US city, and NYC is a bit of an outlier as far as US cost of living goes. All the other big US cities are WAY down the list. When you get into the midsize cities in the midwest, the different between Australian and the US becomes enormous.

I'm not disputing for a moment that Australian cities are expensive. I live in one after all.

What I am disputing is that our living costs in our major cities are double the living costs in your major cities.

And... it would appear that I am very much correct in that regard.

As a result, having a double minimum wage hasn't resulted in the same buying power for people earning minimum wage; even with increased cost of goods. It's resulted in more buying power; contrary to your initial assertions.

 

[Zoe]

I understand your view, but Mcdonalds on anyone's resume isn't flattering at all. Might as well not even list it, unless you're applying to another fast food business.

Burger flipper doesn't look good, but regional manager is certainly getting your foot in the door.

Of course the hope is these people become lifers and work their way up to corporate McD's.

 

[Camp Lo]

Limited anecdotal evidence is definitely a legitimate reason to tell tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of people "Fuck you." So someone working a shitty job day-in-and-day-out accidentally got your order wrong, big fucking deal. You've worked fast food, you know that not everything is perfect all the time, you should know better.

There's nothing that these workers do, aside from management, that warrant a potential $15/hr wage. It doesn't matter if it's a 'shitty job day-in-and-out' (which it really isn't that bad), McDonalds is almost to the point where robots could perform these tasks.

 

[iamblades]

I'm not disputing for a moment that Australian cities are expensive. I live in one after all.

What I am disputing is that our living costs in our major cities are double the living costs in your major cities.

And... it would appear that I am very much correct in that regard.

As a result, having a double minimum wage hasn't resulted in the same buying power for people earning minimum wage; even with increased cost of goods. It's resulted in more buying power; contrary to your initial assertions.

According to that website Sydney has a 32% higher cost of living than NYC, which as I mentioned is a huge outlier in the US data, while Sydney it more representative of the Australian norm.

You compare the Australian average to the US average, I wouldn't be shocked if it approaches double. My estimate of double cost of living was just that though, an estimate. The main point is that higher minimum wages don't really help in the long run, and can't really help in the long run. It's a mathematical impossibility, the money has to come from somewhere.

ETA:

Here is a comparison in the cost of living between my city and a smaller Australian city, to be fair I'm not comparing to Sydney or Melbourne:

http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/louisville/canberra?

84% isn't quite double, but close enough for a tossed out made up statistic.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

While I don't know the prices for basic essentials in America - I'd imagine the differential from our major cities to your major cities can't possibly be that massive.

As a result, it is imminently more livable on an Australian minimum wage in an australian city than an American minimum wage in an American city.

You certainly won't be living a life of cushy luxury in Australia on minimum wage - but you're not going to be trapped into a negative financial spiral from which recourse is extraordinarily difficult.



Elaborate further on your assertion please.

More to the point - I think you're missing the point of the comparison. Which is simply - if you pay people a livable wage at minimum, they'll still have incentive to work harder.

How can I elaborate further? My assertion is based purely on anecdotal evidence. Let me ask you, have you ever visited America? Lived here for awhile? How much do you know about poverty in America, or the socioeconomic factors that create poverty stricken communities?

No offense, but if you have never lived in poverty in America, or met or known many acquaintances, friends, and/or family members living in poor living conditions in America, or unless you are a devoted scholar researching the perils of poverty in America, then your missing a key component to understanding this problem past the point your raising.

Edit: Let me take this opportunity to use my experience to explain this in a way that would make sense to you. I can buy a 24 case of beer over here for $16 of equivalent quality to Tooheys beer. Where I was in Australia (Brisbane) that same case of beer costs $27-32. Cigarettes are 100% more expensive than a pack of cigarettes in NYC (highest sales price for a pack) and up to 300-400% higher than cities in southern states. A lb of lobster at the supermarket costs like $60 fucking dollars compared to $18-24 a lb in New England, and cheaper elsewhere down the Atlantic cost like NJ.

 

[Beautifully Shaped Monsters]

I don't see how anyone can be against minimum wage being a livable minimum. Maybe it shouldn't be set on a federal level, but individually for each state depending on costs, but importantly it should raise with inflation.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

Americans and their dehumanizing of the underclass is pretty fucking wretched.

"If they want to live in not shitty rotten circumstances, they should just work harder. Heh."

Meanwhile, in Australia, people work harder to live in better circumstances - even when they're not subject to shitty rotten circumstances.

You hard working people, you. You should be so fucking proud. You don't even need to work and you work hard. God bless the Australians.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Wow, what? I'm all for paying competent people a decent wage but my experiences with fast food joints is they don't give a shit about the food or their job performance so fuck them.

You are going to the wrong fast food joints.

I make it a habit of only going to the ones that have young high school Asian people working in them, as they tend to get my order correct 90% of the time. If I go to the same place, and there happen to be white people working, it's about a 50/50 shot of getting a bag that has something remotely resembling food inside of it. (There are exceptions, but this is usually how it goes at fast food places around here.)

Also, have you ever considered that the reason some of these places hire shitty workers or high school kids is because they only offer enough money to hire shitty workers and high school kids?

and of-course

 

[Izayoi]

I doubt thats the case in america either(minus the healthcare situation). Lotta hyperbole in this thread.

That is the case. If you can't make ends meet with minimum wage, you begin to incur debt. Debt leads to more debt, and eventually it gets to the point where it's impossible to escape from.

 

[DarkFlow]

Paying a McDonald's cashier $15 an hour would be insane.

In n out burger starts at $9 or $10. It's not that crazy.

 

[Camp Lo]

Also, have you ever considered that the reason some of these places hire shitty workers or high school kids is because they only offer enough money to hire shitty workers and high school kids?

I got paid 5.15/hr and I took my job serious simply because it's food and my family and/or friends might frequent the place.

I'm all for incentive programs which McDonalds offers. I'm all for giving those who take these advantages help and better pay. Any less than that is unreasonable to me.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I'm conflicted on the whole situation. A part of me says a McDonald's cashier shouldn't be paid $15/hr, yet at the same time, how much revenue does the company earn yearly? At Sports Authority, they pay $8 million to name a goddamn stadium, yet they can't give us payroll for the holidays. Effed up shit.

 

[Gallbaro]

Minimum wage needs to keep up with inflation. It seems like the harder these people work, the less they make. Interesting piece on this on Young Turks last night: http://current.com/shows/the-young-turks/videos/mcdonalds-profits-are-up-130-percent-but-employees-still-make-less-than-8-an-hour

Minimum wage is the cause of inflation.

Rather, specifically in NY the cost of living needs to decrease dramatically.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

I got paid 5.15/hr and I took my job serious simply because it's food and my family and/or friends might frequent the place.

I'm all for incentive programs which McDonalds offers. I'm all for giving those who take these advantages help and better pay. Any less than that is unreasonable to me.

I got paid $3.15 an hour when I worked fast food. I was exceptional at my job, but back then gas was like 99 cents a gallon and soda was like 35 cents a can. Both items today cost about 3 times that so minimum wage should reflect it.

If the fast food industry want's to hire people that can't do the job that's a management issue, not a minimum wage issue.

 

[Gallbaro]

You are going to the wrong fast food joints.

I make it a habit of only going to the ones that have young high school Asian people working in them, as they tend to get my order correct 90% of the time. If I go to the same place, and there happen to be white people working, it's about a 50/50 shot of getting a bag that has something remotely resembling food inside of it. (There are exceptions, but this is usually how it goes at fast food places around here.)

Also, have you ever considered that the reason some of these places hire shitty workers or high school kids is because they only offer enough money to hire shitty workers and high school kids?

and of-course

Racist

 

[Camp Lo]

I got paid $3.15 an hour when I worked fast food. I was exceptional at my job, but back then gas was like 99 cents a gallon and soda was like 35 cents a can. Both items today cost about 3 times that so minimum wage should reflect it.

If the fast food industry want's to hire people that can't do the job that's a management issue, not a minimum wage issue.

Min. Wage should be raised. Maybe that $15/hr is mainly a NYC thing because $15/hr in Orlando would be absolute overkill. That number really has me flipping out.

 

[Zaptruder]

According to that website Sydney has a 32% higher cost of living than NYC, which as I mentioned is a huge outlier in the US data, while Sydney it more representative of the Australian norm.

You compare the Australian average to the US average, I wouldn't be shocked if it approaches double. My estimate of double cost of living was just that though, an estimate. The main point is that higher minimum wages don't really help in the long run, and can't really help in the long run. It's a mathematical impossibility, the money has to come from somewhere.

ETA:

Here is a comparison in the cost of living between my city and a smaller Australian city, to be fair I'm not comparing to Sydney or Melbourne:

http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/louisville/canberra?

84% isn't quite double, but close enough for a tossed out made up statistic.

I try to compare our cities to your top tier cities, because QOL is very high in Australia - and also because millions of people been very much underpaid in your top tier cities is still millions of people been very much underpaid in your top tier cities.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Racist

I call it like I see it.
hot asian high school girl = good food
middle age white woman crack addict = barely acceptable sustenance

 

[Angelus Errare]

Yea $15/hr in Orlando would be hilariously overkill, especially in the Winter Park area. COL in Orlando is hella cheap. I'm all for the minimum wage being increased to keep up with inflation at least. Sorry but in majority of states $7.25 ain't gonna do shit for a person.

The vast majority don't get work from Monster.com or classifieds--they get work through connections. So for that woman it's day after day after day of, “No,” “You're not right for this position,” and ”Sorry, we can't help you.” On top of her legal responsibilities with her children, her mother, and herself. Do you even know what it's like to deal with a government welfare office? Do you know how it feels to just try to get diaper money from your child's father?

And that's assuming that she got enough minutes for her prepaid phone that week. And that's assuming that she even knows how to write a proper resume in the first place. And that's assuming that she's got a friend with a computer that will let her email all the things she needs to.

People make stupid decisions in life that put them in these positions. Others are born in truly terrible situations, and they don't even know that there is light on the other side. Why should those people be punished for that? Why shouldn't those people be given every opportunity to thrive and contribute?

Having interned at an unemployment office, this so much. Many people in this thread seriously take many things for granted.

I use to work with people daily who

1. Didn't have a computer nor internet access to go to monster.com
2. Didn't know how to create a resume (because jobs like McDonalds don't require such, they just need to fill out the paper application. Resumes are for middle and upper class jobs).
3. Don't have any skills that would enable them to get a better paying job.

The overall apathy towards people less fortunate than themselves in this thread is seriously bothersome, and I pray you guys never find yourselves in the same situation.

 

[Gallbaro]

Min. Wage should be raised. Maybe that $15/hr is mainly a NYC thing because $15/hr in Orlando would be absolute overkill. That number really has me flipping out.

NYC is a democratic city in a democratic state.

As a result of government knows best economics the city has the highest income disparity and cost of living in the states. And is also rather much of a police state.

Less government well bring down the cost of living not more.

 

[Zaptruder]

How can I elaborate further? My assertion is based purely on anecdotal evidence. Let me ask you, have you ever visited America? Lived here for awhile? How much do you know about poverty in America, or the socioeconomic factors that create poverty stricken communities?

No offense, but if you have never lived in poverty in America, or met or known many acquaintances, friends, and/or family members living in poor living conditions in America, or unless you are a devoted scholar researching the perils of poverty in America, then your missing a key component to understanding this problem past the point your raising.

Edit: Let me take this opportunity to use my experience to explain this in a way that would make sense to you. I can buy a 24 case of beer over here for $16 of equivalent quality to Tooheys beer. Where I was in Australia (Brisbane) that same case of beer costs $27-32. Cigarettes are 100% more expensive than a pack of cigarettes in NYC (highest sales price for a pack) and up to 300-400% higher than cities in southern states. A lb of lobster at the supermarket costs like $60 fucking dollars compared to $18-24 a lb in New England, and cheaper elsewhere down the Atlantic cost like NJ.

So basically, while calling me ignorant, you're using the most spurious of anecdotes to assert your point?

Unnecessary shit costs way more in Australia! ergo Everything costs way more in Australia. (Ignoring the fact that we place a shit load of taxes on those things to discourage their use, and not because they accurately represent our cost of living relative to yours (or in the case of lobster, simply represents the reality of different markets))

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Min. Wage should be raised. Maybe that $15/hr is mainly a NYC thing because $15/hr in Orlando would be absolute overkill. That number really has me flipping out.

You got a good point. I mean, if fast food places where I live paid even $10 an hour you would see the lowly factory workers here jumping ship to work at McDonald and Burger King. It took me 7 years and 2 layoffs and a move to under management to even make $14 an hour at my last job and that was with shift premium for working 3rd.

 

[Deleted member 284]

Good luck making $15/hour. Lots of professionals don't make that much money.

I'm sorry, but what professional makes $15 an hour?

 

[-COOLIO-]

Paying a McDonald's cashier $15 an hour would be insane.

I'm cool with it.

 

[Izayoi]

The overall apathy towards people less fortunate than themselves in this thread is seriously bothersome, and I pray you guys never find yourselves in the same situation.

"Fuck you, I got mine!" in full effect, to be sure. People don't know what it's like to be poor, I'm sure at least some of the people posting tripe in this thread have never personally known someone who lived in true poverty.

 

[Zaptruder]

You got a good point. I mean, if fast food places where I live paid even $10 an hour you would see the lowly factory workers here jumping ship to work at McDonald and Burger King. It took me 7 years and 2 layoffs and a move to under management to even make $14 an hour at my last job and that was with shift premium for working 3rd.

What I'm gathering from this thread is that there's a massive payscale diversity in America... like some areas are going from the most expensive and well paid parts of the world, to other areas that are like a third world country.

It's pretty tricky to discuss the issue of fair minimum wage as a flat thing given the noise that factor adds to the conversation.

 

[Zoe]

I'm sorry, but what professional makes $15 an hour?

I made less than that when I started doing QA, and not shitty game QA either.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Something something cost of living.

Australia is the perfect example of the results of a high minimum wage, everything costs about double, so nothing is accomplished at all.

In that case it essentially becomes a tax on the rich which is fine.

 

[Anticitizen One]

You have to buy a membership to go to Costco, just to buy that hotdog that isn't a dollar.

Costco hot dogs are $1.50 and INCLUDE a drink

 

[Deleted member 284]

Paying a McDonald's cashier $15 an hour would be insane.

What would be a good rate to pay a cashier @ McDonalds? I can only speak of the rate of pay in a metropolitan area like Toronto and NYC, because most fast food places do pretty good business. That Burger King is right outside of Madison Square Gardens on 34th Street and has a million competitors in the immediate area. Should these people (who work really hard, trust me, I've seen that lunch/evening rush) be stuck around $8 an hour? Trust me when I say they are making bank.

 

[Orayn]

"Fuck you, I got mine!" in full effect, to be sure. People don't know what it's like to be poor, I'm sure at least some of the people posting tripe in this thread have never personally known someone who lived in true poverty.

The "You don't deserve to get more than $15 per hour because I don't like what you do." thing is pretty disturbing too.