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[vilmer_]

What motherboard do you have again?

The Asus P8P67 Pro - B3 Revision.

 

[Kintaco]

XFX 6870
Is this a good deal? Are there better deals on something comparable?

Quoting myself since I got no replies

Anyway the 6870 comes with 2 games (Shogun 2 and Dirt 3) and with a $20 MIR. It's $167.99 at Amazon no tax, no ship, so that would be slightly cheaper. Is there a better card in the sub $200 range?

 

[Yoritomo]

Admittedly I disabled LPM via registry on the port the SSD is connected to but I'm running Intel RST with an OCZ 120g vertex3 maxiops and haven't had any issues. There was stuttering/freezing prior to disabling LPM but everything is now perfect. This is simlar to the issues that c300 drives had with LPM.

 

[black_vegeta]

The Asus P8P67 Pro - B3 Revision.

Some people have gotten the same issue if you google it.

Are you overclocking?

 

[vilmer_]

Some people have gotten the same issue.

Are you overclocking?

No overclocking I have the 'optimal' setting as well in the bios.

 

[black_vegeta]

No overclocking I have the 'optimal' setting as well in the bios.

Hmmm, do you any other spare RAM to use to troubleshoot. From what I am reading, it's either an overclocking issue (which you are not doing) or faulty RAM.

 

[Raide]

New budget system ordered. Looking forward to seeing how the i3 2100 runs. Will keep an eye on the i5 2500k prices to see if it gets to a nice cheaper price.

 

[Smokey]

If you want SLi 580's you'd want a 1000W PSU (The Silent Pro 1200W is around the same price usually as well).
xFire and SLi work across brands, but I'd personally get two XFX.

I see this and then I also see Exodu5 say that I should be fine on my AX850W for SLI 580s

WHO TO BELIEVE?!!

 

[vilmer_]

Hmmm, do you any other spare RAM to use to troubleshoot. From what I am reading, it's either an overclocking issue (which you are not doing) or faulty RAM.

Unfortunately I don't have any spare DDR3 argh. I should check to see if there is a newer bios out as well.

 

[black_vegeta]

I'm wondering if I should build my rig now even though I don't have my GPU yet or just wait it out and build it all together???

The wait is killing me.

 

[Smokey]

I'm wondering if I should build my rig now even though I don't have my GPU yet or just wait it out and build it all together???

The wait is killing me.

Build now. GPU is one of the last things to go in anyways. You could test and make sure it boots etc, then when your card comes in plug it in and fly away.

 

[ithorien]

I'm wondering if I should build my rig now even though I don't have my GPU yet or just wait it out and build it all together???

The wait is killing me.

Well, if you build now you can do pretty much everything anyway. When you get the GPU just pop it in and connect the PCI-e power. This way you can do all cable management up front, and have a super clean build for when your GPU arrives.

On a side note, during my build I found out one of the handiest tools when building in one static location is a lazy susan. Especially when you're messing around with good cable management.

 

[black_vegeta]

Cool, I'll start when I get home tonight. YEEEEEAAAAHHH BOOOOOOYYYYY!!!!!!!! DDDDDDD

First time building!! Excited, yet nervous as fuck!

*rubs hands together with a big ass grin*

 

[·feist·]

I know people rave about MSI's video cards, but has anyone had a good experience with MSI AMD motherboards?

Most people will tell you that MSI GPus are generally more reliable than MSI motherboards. Their boards seem to be of varying levels of quality. Some of that is down to users trying to OC on a board that's ill-suited to doing so. Sometimes it's basic things like northbridge sinks that aren't properly affixed from the factory. If you're lucky, you can catch and correct that before things go awry.

I'm wondering if I should build my rig now even though I don't have my GPU yet or just wait it out and build it all together???

The wait is killing me.

If it's Z68, you can build it now and start testing using the IGP. If it's P67, you can grab a spare GPU to build and test with, though you'll want to clean out the old drivers once you get the new GPU.

 

[black_vegeta]

If it's Z68, you can build it now and start testing using the IGP. If it's P67, you can grab a spare GPU to build and test with, though you'll want to clean out the old drivers once you get the new GPU.

I have a p67 board. Unfortunately, I don't have a spare GPU lying around. I can still use it for general use (not gaming) for the time being without a GPU correct?

 

[·feist·]

I have a p67 board. Unfortunately, I don't have a spare GPU lying around. I can still use it for general use (not gaming) for the time being without a GPU correct?

You don't have anything for display output. You can check that the PC powers on, fans are working, and such, but you need an output to install and make settings changes.

 

[black_vegeta]

You don't have anything for display output. You can check that the PC powers on, fans are working, and such, but you need an output to install and make settings changes.

Dammit, forgot about that. >_>

I'll wait a week or so. >:[

Edit: Corky, lol <3

 

[Corky]

Cool, I'll start when I get home tonight. YEEEEEAAAAHHH BOOOOOOYYYYY!!!!!!!! DDDDDDD

First time building!! Excited, yet nervous as fuck!

*rubs hands together with a big ass grin*

PC GAMING BITCHES!

 

[Infinite Jest]

I assembled a new rig 2 days ago (my first build) only to discover as I was installing the dvd drive that the top plastic part of the HAF 922 case was breaking off. So I took it all off an sent it back for a refund (a new one should be here tomorrow). My question for you guys: Is it worth "bench" testing the internals of the rig without the case? I mean, as a first time builder, would the benefits outweigh the risks?

 

[Corky]

I assembled a new rig 2 days ago (my first build) only to discover as I was installing the dvd drive that the top plastic part of the HAF 922 case was breaking off. So I took it all off an sent it back for a refund (a new one should be here tomorrow). My question for you guys: Is it worth "bench" testing the internals of the rig without the case? I mean, as a first time builder, would the benefits outweigh the risks?

Nah man screw that, just wait until tomorrow and bench your ass of when everything is finished. Temps won't be accurate so OCing is no use etc etc

 

[MedIC86]

I assembled a new rig 2 days ago (my first build) only to discover as I was installing the dvd drive that the top plastic part of the HAF 922 case was breaking off. So I took it all off an sent it back for a refund (a new one should be here tomorrow). My question for you guys: Is it worth "bench" testing the internals of the rig without the case? I mean, as a first time builder, would the benefits outweigh the risks?

You mean on the table or something? i would not recommend to this to inexperienced people.

 

[Eliciel]

A simple but yet for myself quite mindblowing question came to my mind if i am not going to overclock at all isn't the i7 + asush67 the better package for nearly the same price as the p67+i5 2500k combo? i hope there is no failure in my way of thinking !^^

 

[Infinite Jest]

Alright, thanks guys. I was recommended to do this on another forum, but I was really apprehensive as I've never assembled a computer nor do I have a real 'work space' that is 100% clean and safe for doing such a test.

This is what I settled on btw:


+ Kingston v+100 96gb ssd (don't hate, it was $85) and Xonar DG sound card

 

[Corky]

A simple but yet for myself quite mindblowing question came to my mind if i am not going to overclock at all isn't the i7 + asush67 the better package for nearly the same price as the p67+i5 2500k combo? i hope there is no failure in my way of thinking !^^

Maybe this isn't what you want to hear but daaaamn you're missing out by not OCing and nowadays it is literally pushing ONE button if that's what you want. In other words get that p67 mobo and show the 2500k who's baws.

 

[whatsinaname]

Hello all. PC needs a major upgrade (basically a new PC) and been putting it off for too long. Looked at the $1000 build on the first page and on another useful site for Australian's (Whirlpool) but some suggestions would be very helpful. Sound card, monitor and headphones are primarily for FPS games. Thanks for any help!

Your Current Specs: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8400 @ 2.66GHz / 4 GB DDR PC2-6400 / ASUSTeK P5G41-M LX (LGA775) / ATI 5850 / Realtek High Definition Audio / AOC LCD 223Vw 22", 1680x1050 / W7 Home Premium Edition 32 bit
Budget: $1500ish including accessories, Australia
Main Use: Gaming, General Usage
Monitor Resolution: 1920x1080
List SPECIFIC games that you MUST be able to play: TW2, BF3, Skyrim
Are reusing any parts?: ATI 5850
When will you build?: Within the next couple weeks.
Will you be overclocking?: Once I get everything else sorted I'll look into it.

Upgrades I'm thinking of ($AU):
Intel Core i5 2500K 3.3 GHz - $219
Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD3P-B3 Motherboard - $209
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer - $99
CoolerMaster HAF 912 Advanced - $115
Kingston ValueRAM KVR1333D3N9K2/8G 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 - $95
Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit with SP1 OEM - $105

Total = $842

Accessories:
ATH-AD900 Headphones - $299
Zalman Microphone ZM-MIC 1 - $9
Alienware AW2310 23" - $416

Total (inc accessories) = $1566

I'll wait for others to chime in, but you may not need to upgrade to the i5 2500k. A better option might be to just upgrade your GPU and upgrade to Ivy Bridge/Bulldozer at a later time.

 

[Dog Problems]

Can a video card show some artifacts in games and stop and be fine? My superclocked 570 went bad a few weeks ago and while I'm waiting for a replacement a friend gave me one of his 570's that he normally uses in a SLI setup to use until I get mine back.

Everything has been fine but today a game showed some artifacts while another game wouldn't load at all and crashed. I restarted and everything is fine now. No artifacts and the games play okay.

Is this a sign the card is going bad or could it have been just a hiccup? Odd that I'm having trouble with another 570.

 

[Eric WK]

So I'm looking to build within the next two months in anticipation of Battlefield 3 and I'm looking for some advice regarding a build with one caveat - I'm looking to purchase the most expensive items from Best Buy's website because I have a Best Buy card. The disadvantages of paying sales tax and slightly higher component prices (nothing very drastic from what I've seen, though) are offset by being 18 months of interest free credit.

My goals are mainly to play Battlefield 3, Guild Wars 2, future Blizzard games and probably a good number of other games (like the Witcher 2) at 1920x1080 on a 23" monitor. No immediate plans to overclock but I wouldn't rule it out.

Here's what I'm planning on purchasing from Best Buy:

PNY - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 570 1.25GB GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 Graphics Card - $329.99
MSI - ATX Motherboard 2133MHz (Socket 1155) - $179.99
Intel® - Core™ i5-2500K Quad-Core 3.3GHz Processor - $229.99
Corsair - Enthusiast Series 750-Watt ATX/EPS CPU Power Supply - $119.99

And from Newegg:

G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) - $84.99
SAMSUNG EcoGreen F4 HD204UI 2TB SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive - $79.99
ASUS DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Black SATA 24X DVD Burner - Bulk - OEM - $20.99
COOLER MASTER Hyper 212 Plus RR-B10-212P-G1 - $39.99

Anything I'm overlooking besides the case? I'm still trying to decide on one at the moment.
Any compatibility issues, pieces you wouldn't recommend, alternatives you would, etc.?

Any help is super appreciated.

 

[Hazaro]

Gotta run, just answering 2 quickies now.

New budget system ordered. Looking forward to seeing how the i3 2100 runs. Will keep an eye on the i5 2500k prices to see if it gets to a nice cheaper price.

Please please please post pictures and whatever benchmarks you can after you get it setup.
Would be really helpful.

I see this and then I also see Exodu5 say that I should be fine on my AX850W for SLI 580s

WHO TO BELIEVE?!!

Because the AX850 and the X850 are basically 1000W units and cost the same

 

[Eliciel]

Maybe this isn't what you want to hear but daaaamn you're missing out by not OCing and nowadays it is literally pushing ONE button if that's what you want. In other words get that p67 mobo and show the 2500k who's baws.

All right, I'll show that punk ass who's baaaaaaws XD. But seriously if I wouldn't OC at all...what would that mean for I7 2600+h67 and i5 2500l+p67. I mean it's only 20€ difference then

But I think I'll go for the p67 combo but I just wondered..that's all ^^

 

[Corky]

All right, I'll show that punk ass who's baaaaaaws XD. But seriously if I wouldn't OC at all...what would that mean for I7 2600+h67 and i5 2500l+p67. I mean it's only 20€ difference then

But I think I'll go for the p67 combo but I just wondered..that's all ^^

the difference between 2600k and 2500k in gaming is virtually nonexistant, and I think there's like a 0.1ghz difference between the stock settings on both cpus. In any case an OCed 2500@ Say 4.8 > stock 2600 @ 3.3 or whatever stock is ; for gaming.

 

[RS4-]

For the Canadians: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produc...&PID=749547&SID=forums&nm_mc=AFC-C8junctionCA

GSkill Snipers, 2x4 kit is only $60

 

[Raide]

Gotta run, just answering 2 quickies now.

Please please please post pictures and whatever benchmarks you can after you get it setup.
Would be really helpful.

As soon as it arrives, I will be running some benchmarks.

 

[The Teachinator]

I see this and then I also see Exodu5 say that I should be fine on my AX850W for SLI 580s

WHO TO BELIEVE?!!

I'm sure you'd be fine. I would honestly just sell the 580 though and get the 590 as it's basically two 580s on one card. Lots of compatibility problems with SLI. I can't think of anything that one 580 can't handle right now. Come winter there should be a few more options from red and green as well.

 

[momolicious]

Anyone know if intel 310 120gb is fast enough to be worth buying over the speed of using a 1tb WD drive?

hmm, the sustained write for the intel 310 80gb is slower than the 120gb. and the intel 510 looks to be twice as fast as the intel 310 series..

 

[ithorien]

Cool, I'll start when I get home tonight. YEEEEEAAAAHHH BOOOOOOYYYYY!!!!!!!! DDDDDDD

First time building!! Excited, yet nervous as fuck!

*rubs hands together with a big ass grin*

You know what a super big plus of this is? You can build at your pace, without any "rush" to make sure it's up and running thus giving you a chance to do everything right.

If you had the GPU you'd probably try to get it going asap because you want to use it. This way you can make sure it's built solid.

 

[TheExodu5]

I'm sure you'd be fine. I would honestly just sell the 580 though and get the 590 as it's basically two 580s on one card. Lots of compatibility problems with SLI. I can't think of anything that one 580 can't handle right now. Come winter there should be a few more options from red and green as well.

What? No, don't do that! A GTX 590 IS an SLI setup. You're not going to avoid any SLI issues by going with a GTX 590. All you'll get is a slower setup, with one massively loud and hot GPU to contend with.

 

[RS4-]

Anyone know if intel 310 120gb is fast enough to be worth buying over the speed of using a 1tb WD drive?

hmm, the sustained write for the intel 310 80gb is slower than the 120gb. and the intel 510 looks to be twice as fast as the intel 310 series..

iirc the Intel 510 is a SATA 6gb/s drive, while the 310 is only 3 gb/s.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Newegg Shell Shocker RIGHT NOW:

MSI P67A-GD53 motherboard:
http://www.newegg.com/Special/ShellShocker.aspx?cm_sp=ShellShocker-_-13-130-572-_-06152011_3

I haven't used an MSI motherboard since the Athlon 64 days so I have no idea how good it is, but if you're not OCing it's hard to beat $110 after MIR...

 

[The Teachinator]

What? No, don't do that! A GTX 590 IS an SLI setup. You're not going to avoid any SLI issues by going with a GTX 590. All you'll get is a slower setup, with one massively loud and hot GPU to contend with.

I didn't know that! I have heard the cards burn up rather easily.

 

[SRG01]

For the Canadians: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produc...&PID=749547&SID=forums&nm_mc=AFC-C8junctionCA

GSkill Snipers, 2x4 kit is only $60

It's not that hot of a deal. You typically find RAM on sale on any given week. It's not like the past few weeks when $100 5770/5830s sold out rather quickly.

 

[nitric0]

Quoting myself since I got no replies

Anyway the 6870 comes with 2 games (Shogun 2 and Dirt 3) and with a $20 MIR. It's $167.99 at Amazon no tax, no ship, so that would be slightly cheaper. Is there a better card in the sub $200 range?

I just bought the XFX 6870 2 weeks ago from Amazon (Cheaper than newegg) Great card, runs Starcraft II at 90-100 FPS. The best card in the <$200 range

 

[bananaman1234]

When updating video drivers, in this case AMD, is it recommended to reinstall the entire package including the catalyst software or just the drivers?

 

[Smokey]

I'm sure you'd be fine. I would honestly just sell the 580 though and get the 590 as it's basically two 580s on one card. Lots of compatibility problems with SLI. I can't think of anything that one 580 can't handle right now. Come winter there should be a few more options from red and green as well.

580 runs everything and then some. I'm just thinking ahead for "future" reference. I see that PSU differential a lot when it comes to SLU 580s (850w is enough, nooo 1000+ or bust..literally). I have a pretty good PSU (AX850) so it would probably be fine, but sometimes I do wonder

 

[cartman414]

Anyone know if intel 310 120gb is fast enough to be worth buying over the speed of using a 1tb WD drive?

Standard HDDs are so cheap nowadays, and multiple drive usage has become such common practice, it should never be an either/or decision. An SSD for OS and apps (and perhaps the rare load intensive game you see yourself playing alot) will give you such a massive speed boost that it's not even funny. You can always put everything else on any standard HDD.

Even so, it can only help to choose wisely. You certainly can't go wrong with Intel. I'd be tempted to consider the 510 series if only for the fact that it's SATA6 compatible (310 isn't).

 

[balddemon]

Newegg Shell Shocker RIGHT NOW:

MSI P67A-GD53 motherboard:
http://www.newegg.com/Special/ShellShocker.aspx?cm_sp=ShellShocker-_-13-130-572-_-06152011_3

I haven't used an MSI motherboard since the Athlon 64 days so I have no idea how good it is, but if you're not OCing it's hard to beat $110 after MIR...

thanks for the link. couple reviews mentioned that it overclocks the 2500k to 4.5ghz. i really want to bite on this, but i'm not sure about anything with computers lol. while i'm waiting for my buddy to get back on steam, could someone maybe recommend this or another one? although i did find this one for $90 ( i just dont know if it works with the 2500k [says it works with the 2nd-gen core i3/i5/i7 but idk what that means]).

questions are bolded

edit: its $90 if you buy it with the 2500k, $130 otherwise. 2500k is $180, worth it here? $90 just seems cheap for the mobo.

 

[TheFury]

After some help in this thread I've changed some things around and will go with this I think, saving myself just over $400.

Intel Core i5 2500K 3.3 GHz - $219
ASRock P67 Pro3 Motherboard B3 - $135
ASUS Xonar DG - $39
CoolerMaster HAF 912 Advanced - $115
Kingston ValueRAM KVR1333D3N9K2/8G 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 - $95
Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit with SP1 OEM - $105

Total = $708

Accessories:
ATH-AD700 Headphones - $139
Zalman Microphone ZM-MIC 1 - $9
LG W2363D - $295

Total (inc accessories) = $1151

I was about to recommend the LG, but I can't even find a retailer that sells it anymore. If you can get it, then yeah, I'd recommend it. It's a close second to the Alienware.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1280136712

Essentially, the BenQ has the best colors, but not as good performance as the Alienware and LG. Of course, when it comes to 120Hz gaming monitors, performance is more important than color reproduction anyways.

I didn't come across many places selling it either, but got lucky and found it for sale on one site. I shall pick up that instead then since it appears to have similar specs and it's a lot cheaper.

I did have a look at the BenQ too and was considering it for a while but that's more expensive than both. Thanks again for the help.

I'll wait for others to chime in, but you may not need to upgrade to the i5 2500k. A better option might be to just upgrade your GPU and upgrade to Ivy Bridge/Bulldozer at a later time.

I had a look around and there doesn't appear to be an official release date for either yet. Would be nice to upgrade to something better, but I'd imagine it would be more expensive and might not be out for a while. My current performance in games is quite poor too with my CPU so would like something more immediate. Thanks for the tip though.

 

[CronosBlade]

Ok I'm gonna ask.

Now before you flame me, understand that I won a Dell gift card from work, which will combine nicely with my employee discount. So with that in mind I'd like to jump in for a gaming PC.

So after futzing around all day on their site, I came up with two configurations. Here are the particulars. My question, almighty master race, which one should I jump in with and go from there? Note two card options on the Alienware.

1. Dell XPS
PROCESSORS Intel® Core™ i7-2600 processor(8MB Cache, 3.4GHz)
MEMORY 8GB DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz - 4 DIMMs
HARD DRIVE 1TB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
VIDEO CARD Single AMD Radeon™ HD 6870


2. Alienware
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™ i5-2300 (6MB Cache) Overclocked Turbo Boost to 3.3GHz
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium, 64Bit, English
MEMORY 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 at 1333MHz
VIDEO CARD 1GB GDDR5 AMD Radeon™ HD 6870 OR Dual 1.5GB NVIDIA® GeForce® GTS 450 - SLI® Enabled

Thank you so much!

 

[RS4-]

@theFury,

I can't see the specs on the monitor you picked, but have you looked at the Asus "Evo" monitor? I believe it's the VE236H, there's always a 246H model as well. With the 236, you can save more than $100 over your current choice.

Ok I'm gonna ask.

Now before you flame me, understand that I won a Dell gift card from work, which will combine nicely with my employee discount. So with that in mind I'd like to jump in for a gaming PC.

So after futzing around all day on their site, I came up with two configurations. Here are the particulars. My question, almighty master race, which one should I jump in with and go from there? Note two card options on the Alienware.

1. Dell XPS
PROCESSORS Intel® Core™ i7-2600 processor(8MB Cache, 3.4GHz)
MEMORY 8GB DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz - 4 DIMMs
HARD DRIVE 1TB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
VIDEO CARD Single AMD Radeon™ HD 6870


2. Alienware
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™ i5-2300 (6MB Cache) Overclocked Turbo Boost to 3.3GHz
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium, 64Bit, English
MEMORY 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 at 1333MHz
VIDEO CARD 1GB GDDR5 AMD Radeon™ HD 6870 OR Dual 1.5GB NVIDIA® GeForce® GTS 450 - SLI® Enabled

Thank you so much!

If dell has the 2500k/2600k, switch to that.

 

[Saren is Bad]

Is it retarded to undervolt on my overclock? I'm at like 1.27V 4.5GHz and was able to do 3 hours of Prime without BSOD and play Rift, Witcher, and SCII all the time without any issues, but y'all are saying it takes 1.3, 1.35V to reach it.

 

[Trouble]

Took the plunge and order parts to upgrade my PC. I only needed a new video card, but since my HP had a shitty case and PS, I upgraded those as well.

Pre Upgrade Machine (HP Pavilion Elite e9180f):
Core i7 920
9GB DDR3-1066
NVidia GTS 250
460W PS

I bought:
Antec 300 + 2 extra 120mm Antec fans
OCZ 600W modular PS
MSI GTX 560 Ti Twin Frozr II (almost went for a 570, but I didn't think the extra almost $100 was worth it)

So swapped everything into the new case. Sooo much more space in there, airflow is way better. The insides of the case were the biggest disappointment, cramped, no cable management whatsoever, single 80mm chassis fan and really poor airflow.

Really happy with the airflow and temperatures I'm seeing post-upgrade. The system actually runs a good bit cooler with the better case. I only installed one of the extra 120mm fans at the front of the case. I think I'll just keep the second as a spare. Highest CPU temp I've seen so far is 73C, idles in the low 40s. With the old case it idled a good 10C higher. During benchmarking the GTX 560 maxed out at 60C, really happy about that. Glad I chose this card for extra cooling.

I did some before/after benchmarks. I'm pretty happy with how things went right now.

DiRT3 - 1920x1080 Medium preset 4xMSAA
        Avg       Min
Before   47.62    40.19
After   111.25    86.33

3DMark Vantage - Free edition defaults
Before   7554
After   18304

Metro 2033 - 1920x1080 Max settings
        Avg       Min       Max
Before   7.67     2.64      45.12
After   25.67     6.34      63.67

Batman AA - 1920x1080 Max settings
        Avg       Min       Max
Before  21         8        31
After   70        43        96