Polish FolkHero
Neo Member
How? Tell me how to play that game! Brought it when it came out been trying ever since to figure out the weapon/damage system. I've started it over like 12 times.
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IGN's Top 100 RPGs of All Time
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How? Tell me how to play that game! Brought it when it came out been trying ever since to figure out the weapon/damage system. I've started it over like 12 times.
Polish FolkHero
Neo Member
Most excellent! Thanks!
Worth it just for that awesome artwork in that post. What is that site? Old-GAF?
Flakster99
Member
It's an archive of a Something Awful post.
Greatest Ever
Member
Sequels gave a disadvantage on many lists unless they're significantly different from their predecessors.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Good number 1 and 2, but having Mass Effect 2 so high really shits on most of the list.
cartman414
Member
My beef was that it was either suffer through drawing, or easily bust the game through aforementioned Card Modding into the best spells to junction.
Megawarrior
Member
Wow shadow hearts covenant made it. IGN has taste again. Easily the best ps2 rpg.
cartman414
Member
And Pokemon doesn't? (It's newer, but decidedly more antiquated.)
Look! The Pie!
Member
My thoughts on the list:
In spite of all the hilarious salty posts about DA:I being on the list, I'm happy IGN recognised the fact that a great many people actually enjoyed the game.
FFVII is far too low, and FFIV is far too high. I'd be happier if they'd switched places.
I love Secret of Mana (mostly due to nostalgia) but it has not aged well in the slightest and does NOT deserve to be in the top 10. Even more baffling is that Terranigma wasn't included at all, though it was nice to see Illusion of Gaia/Time included at least.
Pleasantly surprised to see Suikoden 2 represented (and fairly high at that), although I think 3 and 5 deserved spots too.
No Wild Arms at all?
#1 and #2 were safe, predictable choices and despite recognising that they're good at what they do, I don't think I'll ever understand or agree with the almost deific status CT and FFVI seem to have.
Edit: No Trails either? Like, what the fuck? I've only played TitS (First Chapter) up to now and if that level of quality is maintained throughout the series it definitely deserves some recognition.
In spite of all the hilarious salty posts about DA:I being on the list, I'm happy IGN recognised the fact that a great many people actually enjoyed the game.
FFVII is far too low, and FFIV is far too high. I'd be happier if they'd switched places.
I love Secret of Mana (mostly due to nostalgia) but it has not aged well in the slightest and does NOT deserve to be in the top 10. Even more baffling is that Terranigma wasn't included at all, though it was nice to see Illusion of Gaia/Time included at least.
Pleasantly surprised to see Suikoden 2 represented (and fairly high at that), although I think 3 and 5 deserved spots too.
No Wild Arms at all?
#1 and #2 were safe, predictable choices and despite recognising that they're good at what they do, I don't think I'll ever understand or agree with the almost deific status CT and FFVI seem to have.
Edit: No Trails either? Like, what the fuck? I've only played TitS (First Chapter) up to now and if that level of quality is maintained throughout the series it definitely deserves some recognition.
YES. Terranigma is without a doubt, one of the best, if not the best Japanese Super Nintendo RPG. Its scale and scope is ridiculous. It's one of the best games I have ever played.
TRUE ORDER
Member
FFVI got robbed!!
CT is a great game, but I like VI more.
Dissapointed on the lack of Valkyrie Profile, Xenosaga or Wild Arms.
CT is a great game, but I like VI more.
Dissapointed on the lack of Valkyrie Profile, Xenosaga or Wild Arms.
cartman414
Member
SMB3 was far better IMO. World was a little closer to exploration to its detriment in terms of platforming. The controls, while technically more user friendly, were too forgiving especially when it came to the feather cape slowing down Mario's descent to a much greater degree. With Raccoon Tail/Tanooki in 3 you didn't have as much leeway, which kept a lot of the tension on sticking each jump. (And before you argue the bonus levels in SMW, no game should have to rely on extra levels for a challenge.)
GARlockSpiral
Member
Most of the list is ok, but FFXII at #31 is FAR too high for that steaming pile of crap that can barely be called a video game.
isaacnukem
Member
Awesome to see Vagrant Story so high up on the list. I played through Chrono Trigger and though it's faultless, it honestly didn't affect me in any way. I like Chrono Cross better.
Suikoden II was my number 1 pick, oh well.
Suikoden II was my number 1 pick, oh well.
cartman414
Member
A lot of people took insult over it beating out Pillars of Eternity for one.
Crazyorloco
Member
Yeah I would put sun and moon in Yellow's spot because they're the best Pokemon games out now - until something else eclipses it and becomes the star.
ah, the eternal tradition of IGN's top100 lists, always a source of entertainment for all ages. List is surprisingly thorough, anyway, besides the usual lelworthy choices (Everquest why - LOL at DAI before POE, and I loved that game - Skyrim so freakin' high and so on)
I beat the game once and ended up really disliking the game. Very obtuse systems in that game, and the inventory and combat is tedious.
That original gen holds a place in many of our hearts, but that gen was also so broken and simple. To this day there is a lot that the series needs to improve on, so going back to Gen 1 you realize it is the poorest in gameplay by far.
Heart gold soul silver would probably be a better choice or gen 5 or 7. Even then I don't think any Pokémon could crack the top 10 for me.
PhilipDoesMatter
Member
FF VI deserves the top 1. In general I agree with the list.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I didn't know Stardew Valley was an RPG. From screens it looks like Harvest Moon.
Vincent Grayson
Member
The simplest solution is to have 6 weapons, one for each major enemy type. It's fairly easy to swap out parts or carry a few extras for edge cases, but I found the game very playable doing it that way. And of course I gave each weapon a clever name related to what it was strong against.
Goddamn do I wish we could get Matsuno to make another, or supervise a PS4 remake of the original. Or even just a PS4 port like the FF7 port.
Finally, someone offers a list criteria, which should be the only part of a list that's worth discussing. The criteria should tell us about what you value and the weight you give various elements. In this case, you 6 points aren't a criteria for what makes a good RPG, but simply what makes an RPG.
Thanks for taking the time to go the extra mile.
Many have struggled with video game terms, language, and categories. Many attempt to use terms, but they end up triggering the neologist in me. ("mechanic" is my biggest trigger word) It's especially hard to develop a clear language just before you need to put it to the test (like when making a top 100 list).
These 6 points are a decent start, but the whole list has a few holes. This is not to mention that the criteria wasn't applied thoroughly to the items on the list. Here's how I see it.
1) Have persistent character progression with player-exposed stats.
Persistent character progression and player exposed stats are not essential to RPGs. Perhaps a better way to explain it is that this point and the rest of the 6 don't seem to articulate the aesthetic end user experience that RPG strive to create. It doesn't reflect why features like stats are so widespread in the genre.
In essence, RPGs are a type of game that simulates and abstracts rather than models via systemic interactions. So RPGs commonly strive to create a world rich in conceptual detail, details that are particularly hard to model via rules. So we have abstractions and other systems to roughly bridge the gap. This way we can express the idea of a character getting strong over time via exp and leveling. And we can also create a stat for just about anything from digestion (The World Ends With You) to Charm (Persona 5) to Stache (Mario & Luigi). While the Miyamoto/Nintendo/opposite way to create a game controls/fun first with the level design and wrinkles developed afterward, RPGs, from what I gather, start with the bigger concepts (story, world, etc.) and then create systems to convey these ideas.
Knowing this, you can have an RPG with no exp. You can have the character never level up and instead focus on gear/weapons/anything else. And you don't have to have the stats exposed either. Being nerdier than most, we gamers love our numbers though so it's no wonder RPGs use them so much.
2) Combat had to feature prominently
Likewise, combat isn't a requirement. Think of it this way, if you can understand that various turn based, stats/numbers driven scenarios are in fact simulating combat encounters, then you can imagine that just about any action can be simulated in a similar way. In the same way that anime can give the ol' anime treatment to anything from Ninjas (Naruto) to baking (Yakitate Japan), the "combat" part of an RPG can be anything from non-violent "arguing" to cooking (does Battle Chef Brigade count here?). All in all, most RPGs (and games) have some kind of combat/battle gameplay because conflict and fantasy combat world are popular.
3) Combat resolution for a standard playthrough had to be determined in large part due to the skill or your character and not player skill.
This one is complex. The vagueness of this point stems from the "in large part". Is this 30%? 51+%? Regardless of how simple the basic "attack-attack-heal" RPG strategy is, playing RPGs is still a skill-based activity. You have to know how all the moves function and execute at the right time unless your characters are ridiculously over-leveled. I assume we're talking about normal playthroughs so we don't have to worry so much about considering the extremes of over/under-leveled gameplay.
So, RPGs are skilled based even if the whole "avatar" skill thing complicates our assessment. And certainly, Action games and Action-RPGs bend the skill spectrum farther way from "avatar skill" being relevant. If you're trying to say that the way you invest and customize your character should matter in an RPG, I agree. I think that the decisions you make in any game should matter. And I expect the same from RPGs.
If you're trying to say that RPGs should be built in a way where leveling is a requirement to progress in some cases, then this is more of a balance concern than a genre-defining consideration. Imagine a really easy RPG with all the turn-based, stats, exp, equipment, and character progression as Chrono Trigger. For this EASY-RPG players might never have to slow down to grind due to the difficulty balance. It's still an RPG. You can test this by playing any RPG on easy mode. You might be able to win these games by indescriminately mashing the buttons on the controller. If this is possible, these games would still be RPGs, right? So does the balance between player and avatar-skill really matter?
4) Player choice and consequence, either in story or character development/building.
This point seems straightforward, but I don't think it says what we all think when we read it. By mentioning consequence, you're basically saying that the choice shouldn't be a false choice, where the game will continue forward regardless of the option you picked. This is generally a good thing for any game that gives you a seemingly weighty choice.
So maybe you're saying this choice should affect the story or the character in some way. Again, any time you customize your character (armor, weapons, skills, portioning exp, etc.) you are affecting your character development. If this is the case, this part of point #4 is mostly covered with point #1.
As for the story part, any side quest, alternate ending, or story branch should qualify. I feel that an RPG can be completely linear with its story. So if you can customize your character at all, then the story can be linear and still meet the requirements here.
5) It had to have an actual narrative (stripping purely systems-driven roguelikes from contention).
"Actual narrative" is another troublesome phrase that seems to have a bit of bias to it. It doesn't take much for a work to have a narrative. Stories and the telling of these stories can be extremely minimal and still qualify as a narrative. Most people tend to prefer complex stories to minimal or simple ones. I like all kinds of stories, so I tend to look at points like #5 differently. So it seems that most games would qualify for this one these days.
6) Some element of exploring a world or virtual space.
I think the best way to interpret this is for a game to feature non-required areas, quests, and perhaps secrets. It's not much of an exploration if the experience is linear (according to how most think of exploration). So tucking a few chests here and there or having a side quest is enough to qualify here too.
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So when it comes down to it, your 6 points are still very broad in how they apply to games. They don't do enough to separate RPGs from non-RPGs. The top 100 list makes this clear enough based on the inclusion of many titles that are commonly labeled as genres other than RPG.
After understanding the core design behind RPGs and how this core shapes their common tropes, the final trick is to understand that the RPG label works best as a sort of catch-all category. When a game features other more prominent gameplay types, it is probably best categories as another genre.
Ultimately, I would find it more interesting if you gave us a criteria for what you think is good about these games. Regardless of the fringe cases and blurred genres, articulating and weighing a criteria for what makes such a complex genre good would take some real effort.
Best of luck.
It's a lot like the GAF list just for WRPGs instead of JRPGs.
StrategyFan
Member
it at least had more role-playing games and less mislabeled action/tactics games
FallenGrace
Member
Sorry late response lol.
Been a long time since I played it but the key is affinity/enemy types on weapons. The same weapon could wipe out certain enemies but struggle against others. Early on it should be fairly straight forward as you can use most weapons effectively just combine as much gear as you can for better armour and weapons and practice chaining your attacks as that's important. Later on enemies get a lot tougher, I remember beating one boss just doing 1hp of damage per hit, it took ages as I didn't have suitable weapons for their type ha ha.
It has a new game plus so by my 12th time through getting the best weapons possible I ended up so strong from permanent stat increase potions I was getting which is how I could take that boss out like that.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
It seems weird they chose Pokemon Yellow to be in their top 5 over other pokemon games. Gen 1 was the foundation, but it's hard going back to changing PC boxes, slow battles, and no auto-repels. If they'd go with gen 1 I would have to go with Red and Blue over Yellow. Yellow is prettier and fixes some stuff, but they took out the glitches which made Red and Blue special.
Portugeezer
Member
Best RPG of last gen.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
I'd say that they absolutely do. Have you ever played Dungeons and Dragons? That's my personal reference point for what constitutes an RPG, and that list of six points is a more perfect and succinct boiling-down of that line of thought than I've seen on GAF before.
Peroroncino
Member
As I thought, nostalgia behemoths won, but, I can live with that list, mainly due to the fact that The Witcher 3 made top 10 as the only game from this/last gen.
My kindred spirit.
My kindred spirit.
InsaneFandom
Member
Wait, so you're telling me neither Dungeon Master, Legend of Grimrock, or ANY of the Legend of Heroes games(TiTS/CS) made the list but shit like Neverwinter Nights 2 and Freedom Force made the cut? Plus you have Phantasy Star IV and Final Fantasy VII all the way at number 53 and 52?
LOL OK IGN! Fucking comedy all around.
Though I will agree CT is GOAT.
LOL OK IGN! Fucking comedy all around.
Though I will agree CT is GOAT.
Square2015
Member
Can someone tally up the consoles on the list? Did SNES come out on top?
Thanks for putting in the hard work to get it done!
Are you guys planning on doing a podcast or sort of roundtable to go behind the scenes about the selection process and how certain games were slotted? I'm super interested to know what makes a game that was on the previous top 100 list make such huge jumps, specifically Vagrant Story and Suikoden II
That was actually my point. He offered up no reasoning, just threw up an amateurish word for his team to discredit it. VII is an extremely solid RPG. I would loved to have known what this crew had against it versus the other 51 that placed higher, but all he offered up here was that they viewed it as overrated. It's meaningless critique and enough for me, personally, to know I need not bother reading anything further from them.
Admittedly its also kind of funny that he bristled at the hipster mentions. I mean, if you go around calling mainstream popular things overrated, in that regard, you've kind of earned it.