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Is Nintendo EAD still the best developer in the world?
- Thread starter Shikamaru Ninja
- Start date
TheGreenGiant
Banned
Razoric said:
arthur becoming undead doesn't happen til like hours later... all the tedious business with getting that stupid SWORD OF POWAR!! Did you play it? that's MY question.
oops. sorry about no spoilers but oh well.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
Razoric said:
it does.
Well, I've gotta say I haven't played WC3 or Diablo 2, but at the same time I'll question if you've played MM. It's a wondorous story, like a dark fairytale filled with rich mythology and poetic scenes... it really feels like a Miyazaki film. It's better than most films in fact... you've played it right?Razoric said:
TheGreenGiant said:
No voice acting and no CG cut scenes = No story
There I said it. OOT, MM, and WW are the benst example of EAD's stories, but even still they cant even compare to some other types of games. The Warcraft story spans thousands of years through rich racial history and wars and its built through continuity of 3 games + expansion packs, books, games, and the upcoming MMO. Zelda storylines are one shot Link vs Gannon(in most cases) escapades with no continuity or point to each other really.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
AeroGod said:
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? lol. You MUST be the biggest FF/MGS cockwhore then. Sorry but you just took yourself out of contention.
Hahahaha.
jarrod said:
Hey don't get me wrong, I loved MM. I played it back on N64 (havent cracked open the GC version yet). I personally like the more involved and detailed stories from Blizzard but I'm not saying that MM wasn't awesome in it's own right. I'm not slamming EAD by any means here.
Razoric said:
The only really good story Blizzard ever delivered was Starcraft (including Brood War), because it was heavily influenced by politics and very good character design was in place.
The usual Warcraft story always reminds me of generic fantasy novels or Tolkien derivates. At least that's my opinion.
Well, okay then. I'd also have to say MM is the exception rather than the rule for EAD, nothing else from them even approaches MM in terms of scenario and storyline... but it's pretty amazing in it's own right. The only games I can personally think of in the same league would be the Saturn Panzer Dragoons and Ico, all of which could make excellent films with their story, characters and world design being so well done. All these games have a tangible mythology, they're amazing. It might be unfair of me to say, but from what I know about Blizzard's games, they seem to be run of the mill SciFi or D&D/Fantasy by comparison. :/Razoric said:
I can agree wit hyou jarrod. MM is probably the the strongest of the Zelda storylines, I just wish the game had more dungeons. Still, MM feels like the best attempt to turn Zelda into something really revolutionary with the journal and side quests, masks, and certain gameplay elements. In comparison, OoT and WW feels very watered dow nand found both of them to be very boring.
And yes, Warcraft is borderline cliche for fantasy setting, its still interesting though because it is so deep and has a lot of interesting history aspects to it.
And yes, Warcraft is borderline cliche for fantasy setting, its still interesting though because it is so deep and has a lot of interesting history aspects to it.
jarrod said:
Obvious Tolkien influence aside, WC does have a pretty good / indepth mythos that's better than most run of the mill D&D/Fantasy stories. And it's not so much what the story is (which is good IMO) but how it's told while going through the game. Blizzard's WoW site is down right now otherwise I'd link you to their entire backstory for WoW (which includes WC, WC2, WC3 and TFT stories). Pretty interesting if you are into Fantasy storylines.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
AeroGod said:
I'm not. I'm a PS2/Nintendo Fanboy. But mostly a fanboy for GOOD games.
I don't own/desire to own
Pokemon
Mario playing golf
mario playing kart
mario playing tennis
mario partying titles
jarrod said:
I mostly agree. WC = Starcraft in the middle ages (vice versa)
ICO however.. I bought the game two weeks ago and played it a bit. OVERRATED imo. Visuals are Okkkayyyy but gameplay = meh at best. Still unfinished and no desire to go back. Maybe when I have time (I'm got past the windmill and that's where i left it). And what design??? There's a castle, a boy with horns, a munted girl and shadows + dark queen/mother or whatever she was. The whole thing is VERY understated I guess. Gameplay = solve puzzles and whack a mole. :|
you know i'd always pick treasure over ead, but with the release of gradius v, astro boy, and advance guardian heroes this year, i needn't feel silly doing so. :lol
anyway, iirc namco doesn't subdivide their internal development pool at all -- they just separate into teams for individual games. so they'd thrash ead pretty handily. an incomplete list:
klonoa 2
klonoa: empire of dreams
klonoa g2
katamari damacy
time crisis 2
time crisis 3
gunvari collection
taiko no tatsujin
donkey konga
ridge racer v
ace combat 4
soul calibur
soul calibur 2
tekken tag tournament
breakdown
mr. driller drill land
with crisis zone, ace combat v, katamari damacy oni, and ridge racer psp on the way! awesome namco, namco is awesome!
anyway, iirc namco doesn't subdivide their internal development pool at all -- they just separate into teams for individual games. so they'd thrash ead pretty handily. an incomplete list:
klonoa 2
klonoa: empire of dreams
klonoa g2
katamari damacy
time crisis 2
time crisis 3
gunvari collection
taiko no tatsujin
donkey konga
ridge racer v
ace combat 4
soul calibur
soul calibur 2
tekken tag tournament
breakdown
mr. driller drill land
with crisis zone, ace combat v, katamari damacy oni, and ridge racer psp on the way! awesome namco, namco is awesome!
jarrod said:Well I can appreciate that Blizzard games might manage to overcome their almost cliche settings, especially if they have some heavy political intrigue. I'm a big Ogre Battle Saga fan after all.
Once the site is back up I'll link you to the entire story of Warcraft. You can read it when you are bored sometime to see if it is your cup of tea or not.
Just thought I'd allow you and Kobun to get on the same level.drohne said:
Stretch Panic was just amazing wasn't it.
IAWTP!!!!drohne said:
Namco is quite easily the top large scale developer I'd have to say. Though stuff like Racing Evolution and Breakdown take them a step down from perfect, they're still way ahead of EAD, AM2, Rare, SCEI, KCET or other similar sized groups.
drohne said:
Drohne I have a question, do you think Namco's developed games are better than all of Nintendo's (complete catalog) developed games this generation (including GBA)? Also who do you believe are the Top 5 developers this generation (takig into account the number of good/great games or number of games you enjoy from them)? This isn't some weird troll/setup, I'm really interested.
seismologist
Banned
TheGreenGiant said:
You need to play it until the end. It's not that long and things start heating up quickly the ending is great it rivals Wind Waker, IMO.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
drohne said:
Namco?~! They need to do better.
1) Klonoa is overrated and yes I've played it
2) They slaughtered RR in RE
(no positive development of existing franchises and improvements)
3) SC2 is NOT generationally better than 1. Story mode in SC2 < SC1's story mode (no positive development of existing franchises and improvements)
4) Tekken 4 (no positive development of existing franchises and improvements)
5) Breakdown (C-)
JARROD WC universe has nothing on Ogre Battle.
SolidSnakex
Member
"4) Tekken 4 (no positive development of existing franchises and improvements)"
So moving the game off of what's essentially been a 2D fighting plane into a 3D one isn't a positive improvement?
So moving the game off of what's essentially been a 2D fighting plane into a 3D one isn't a positive improvement?
i always wonder how to compare boutique developers to major developers. cave are the absolute masters of a narrow subgenre, and practically everything they do in that space is gold...but they can't really venture outside of it. can i reasonably say that cave is a better developer than ead or amusement vision? dunno. so many of my favorite games are from little developers like that -- cave, treasure, raizing, tecnosoft, etc. that's one reason why i think this "best developer" stuff is silly.
oh, and if you consider smilebit's non-sports games and amusement vision's games to be the work of one development team, i think they'd beat ead as well.
oh, and if you consider smilebit's non-sports games and amusement vision's games to be the work of one development team, i think they'd beat ead as well.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
seismologist said:
I don't want to play it though.
I might finish it this coming weekend / week so we'll see if the game can change my opinion. I mean; how much more is there to go; I've alreadyenchanted half the main gate and gotten past a bit of the second half of the castle
so unless there is way more gameplay + play.. I don't know. Don't spoil it for me though. I want to experience this I guess. At the moment; based off hype + GAF love. I would give ICO 5/10. Simply lacklustre.
seismologist
Banned
TheGreenGiant said:
damn dude you need to stop putting your foot in your mouth. I think you're a little more than halfway done. You're just now getting to the good part.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
SolidSnakex said:
taking away tag; enclosed enviroments; sacrificing character detail for environment; makes Tekken 4 < TTT.
so I stand by what I said.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
seismologist said:
let me just say; for any game to take THIS long to GET to the good part. ... :| The game has been incredibly tedious so far IMO. I did say I thought I was half way through I'll shut my mouth now. Thanks, your post actually has me getting a little excited about playing more ICO.
SolidSnakex
Member
TheGreenGiant said:
Your original statement was it didn't introduce anything positive, not that it removed stuff you originally liked. The game introduced one of the most significant changes to the series so far and that's that it was finnaly a fully 3D fighter. Instead of fighting on the infinite plane you were fighting a 3D field where you could interest with the background, move in and out of it ect. That's a huge step for the series.
Well, it sounds like a cliche but really subtlety is the key. Ico is just so consistent, mysterious and most importantly subtle... it's really unlike anything else in gaming. It's one of the few games that transcends the '16-24 male demographic' aim this industry's stuck in... hopefully it's the future for gaming as well. If there were more games like Ico, this industry might be able to legitimize itself as an artform.TheGreenGiant said:
But yeah, gameplay wise it's essentially messy combat and OoT push puzzles. :/
TheGreenGiant
Banned
SolidSnakex said:
If said development makes the game less fun/enjoyable
Even Namco admitted in the massive EDGE editorial that they needed to fix Tekken 4's broken mechanics.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
jarrod said:
game = for playing; if
; then it isn't really much of a game is it? I was surprised at how limited ICO seems. Its also at this point where I left it. EXTREMELY linear.jarrod said:
the platform that rises when you push the handle bar around 360 degrees like a bazillion times to get from A-B (and which took about 3-5 minutes
Here is the entire Warcraft story for those interested. It spans from 10,000 years before WC1 all the way up to WoW...
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/timeline.shtml
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/timeline.shtml
All of Namco Vs all of Nintendo makes things harder...Shoryuken said:
Namco Ltd
Namco Hometek
Tales Studio
Monolith Software
Nintendo R&D1
Nintendo R&D2
Nintendo EAD
Nintendo SPD
Nintendo Tokyo R&D
Nintendo Software Technology
HAL Labratory
Intelligent Systems
Retro Studios
Game Freak Entertainment
Suzac
NdCube
Brownie Brown
Ambrella
Noise
Genius Sonority
...Nintendo's simply much larger and more diverse all around. In terms of scale, only Sony, EA, Konami or Sega Sammy could really compare (maybe Microsoft and UbiSoft too).
Ninja Scooter
Member
this is one of the dumbest threads ever. Its just videogames people. Lighten up.
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
Ignoring the stupid in this thread, which is most of it, there are actually some good points coming up.
It really is hard to compare EAD to other developers. They're so different from the vast majority, with their huge workforce making so many games of so many different genres at once. There's been a lot of Blizzard vs. EAD in this thread, but I'm just not sure you can compare them.
According to Blizzard's website there are 150 people working for them, and as I understand it they have two teams, so we can guess that about 75 people work on each of two games at a time. Compare that to EAD, who have multiple teams (you can never be sure how many, 6 or 7 at least I'd imagine), not to mention members who go to help out at places like NST and Silicon Knights, or look after the games from Japan like with Metroid Prime. And of course, they also look after some GBA development (though not much it seems) and that's only going to get more of a problem with the DS.
Now assuming I've counted correctly, Blizzard have released 15 games since 1991 (inc. expansion packs), which is just over a game a year. EAD on the other hand have made twice that many, and that's not counting games they just have involvement with rather than making internally.
Blizzard have tried quite a few genres, so that's quite useful for comparison, even if they keep a constant main focus on strategy titles in there. It's not to the degree EAD do, but if developers had to diversify that much to be compared to EAD, I don't think we could find any others to look at.
Anyway, to round it back to my point, it's really hard to know who you can compare. I mean, EAD's talent is split across a lot of games, which no doubt weakens each individual title. They also like to try a lot of different genres, which doesn't help them get better and better at things as they would if they were more focused. I mean, let's say Nintendo kept the very best 150 of EAD on and let the others go, forming two teams of 75 to focus on platformers (2D or 3D, doesn't matter) and adventure games (or maybe racing games? I dunno, it depends what you think EAD's strengths are), throwing in the odd different title every so often. Could you imagine how much better they'd be? These would just be amazing games, the sort of thing they do every so often now, but hopefully more consistently with that sort of set up.
Now I know people are going to argue "Yeah...but EAD don't do that", and that's a valid point, but I'm simply trying to show that developers can be so different that it's hard to make fair comparisons sometimes. Like, I think someone earlier in the thread said something about EAD's size being an advantage, and could you imagine how good UbiSoft Montreal would be if they had the same numbers or something close to that. It's certainly an advantage in terms of the number of games you can work on at a time, but I actually see the size as a disadvantage in terms of the individual quality of the games. Let's say UbiSoft Montreal did hire a shit load of people to get as large as EAD. What are the chances that there are that many people out there good enough as the current UbiSoft Montreal team? Slim at best. They would undoubtedly have to take the most talented members from the original team and the few they managed to hire and split them across multiple games, just to make sure you don't have one really good game and 5 poor ones.
Now if it's true that Namco all work under one roof like EAD and aren't split, that's probably the best comparison we could make.
It really is hard to compare EAD to other developers. They're so different from the vast majority, with their huge workforce making so many games of so many different genres at once. There's been a lot of Blizzard vs. EAD in this thread, but I'm just not sure you can compare them.
According to Blizzard's website there are 150 people working for them, and as I understand it they have two teams, so we can guess that about 75 people work on each of two games at a time. Compare that to EAD, who have multiple teams (you can never be sure how many, 6 or 7 at least I'd imagine), not to mention members who go to help out at places like NST and Silicon Knights, or look after the games from Japan like with Metroid Prime. And of course, they also look after some GBA development (though not much it seems) and that's only going to get more of a problem with the DS.
Now assuming I've counted correctly, Blizzard have released 15 games since 1991 (inc. expansion packs), which is just over a game a year. EAD on the other hand have made twice that many, and that's not counting games they just have involvement with rather than making internally.
Blizzard have tried quite a few genres, so that's quite useful for comparison, even if they keep a constant main focus on strategy titles in there. It's not to the degree EAD do, but if developers had to diversify that much to be compared to EAD, I don't think we could find any others to look at.
Anyway, to round it back to my point, it's really hard to know who you can compare. I mean, EAD's talent is split across a lot of games, which no doubt weakens each individual title. They also like to try a lot of different genres, which doesn't help them get better and better at things as they would if they were more focused. I mean, let's say Nintendo kept the very best 150 of EAD on and let the others go, forming two teams of 75 to focus on platformers (2D or 3D, doesn't matter) and adventure games (or maybe racing games? I dunno, it depends what you think EAD's strengths are), throwing in the odd different title every so often. Could you imagine how much better they'd be? These would just be amazing games, the sort of thing they do every so often now, but hopefully more consistently with that sort of set up.
Now I know people are going to argue "Yeah...but EAD don't do that", and that's a valid point, but I'm simply trying to show that developers can be so different that it's hard to make fair comparisons sometimes. Like, I think someone earlier in the thread said something about EAD's size being an advantage, and could you imagine how good UbiSoft Montreal would be if they had the same numbers or something close to that. It's certainly an advantage in terms of the number of games you can work on at a time, but I actually see the size as a disadvantage in terms of the individual quality of the games. Let's say UbiSoft Montreal did hire a shit load of people to get as large as EAD. What are the chances that there are that many people out there good enough as the current UbiSoft Montreal team? Slim at best. They would undoubtedly have to take the most talented members from the original team and the few they managed to hire and split them across multiple games, just to make sure you don't have one really good game and 5 poor ones.
Now if it's true that Namco all work under one roof like EAD and aren't split, that's probably the best comparison we could make.
SolidSnakex
Member
AniHawk said:
It's online too.
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