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[grumble]

That is a nice simplification and does not really cover the flu and flu shots. That is why you can get 10-20 % effectiveness, because with the flu the system is a lot more complex and because of international travel and chance there can be several strains in one year and it is still a guess which one will be most dominant.

That is also why unlike with smallpox even the WHO does recommend the flu shot to groups with higher risks because the herd immunity with the flu is almost not achievable unlike with smallpox or measles. That is why usually with the flu the risk groups get the shot not everybody because it is very unreliable.

Everyone has the shot available - the vaccine is prioritized for risk groups, not set aside for them.

It is true that you aren't going to get complete immunity with a flu shot, for yourself or others. What you will get is resistance. That is worth it a thousand times over. If you're fighting a war, do you go out wearing a bulletproof jacket or not? I'd take the jacket.

 

[Kurita]

 

[Breads]

That is a nice simplification and does not really cover the flu and flu shots. That is why you can get 10-20 % effectiveness, because with the flu the system is a lot more complex and because of international travel and chance there can be several strains in one year and it is still a guess which one will be most dominant.

That is also why unlike with smallpox even the WHO does recommend the flu shot to groups with higher risks because the herd immunity with the flu is almost not achievable unlike with smallpox or measles. That is why usually with the flu the risk groups get the shot not everybody because it is very unreliable.

So is your answer the same as GMOs? That we should just stop because it isn't as effective in the ways you (as in you specifically) want it to be?

 

[SkyOdin]

Well, it could be based on the idea, that even within the liberal and pro science press there are enough articles criticizing flu shots to fill several books. There are even articles on the Huffington post about that.

So if one person can create a whole anti-vaccination movement with one article nobody else pretty much backed up (according to this thread this is the only reason), you want to explain to me that all the articles on Flu vaccination and people on television like Bill Maher criticizing flu shots have no impact at all and this is all made up.

The anti-vaccination movement exploded thanks to advertising. Celebrities bought into dubious science, but then spread it via talk shows and other avenues. Later, it took off thanks to internet sources that spread the word.

The battle between science and anti-vaxers is an information war. It is battle of memes against facts. If people go silent about the benefits of vaccinations, anti-vaxers will fill the void with lies and disinformation. I don't at all buy the logic that being quiet about flu vaccines will somehow increase the number of vaccinated people.

It seems like you are honestly arguing that the flu vaccine is a bad idea half the time in this thread. Tell me straight: do you support the idea that as many people as possible should be vaccinated in order to prevent the spread of infectious disease?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Why do you want to promote that? In a good year it still is closer to a coin toss. It only weakens the argument for the real discussion.

It's not even close to "a coin toss". Do you even have a basic understanding how statistics and probability work?

"There is a 50/50 chance we are right. If we're wrong nothing bad will happen, if we're right millions of lives could be saved"

"I don't like those odds, may as well not try at all"

Seriously. Holy shit.

Trokil, you're the same person who went on about how GMOs are bad for the enviornment and offer no benefits, right? Between that and this you're becoming mighty suspect.

Oh right, it's that guy. Ugh.

 

[MrNelson]

People, look at the OP - a person who argues against verified science regarding the safety of GMO foods (hint: he sides with the loonies).

Don't fall for this shit.

Quoting for new page.

 

[Trokil]

Everyone has the shot available - the vaccine is prioritized for risk groups, not set aside for them.

It is true that you aren't going to get complete immunity with a flu shot, for yourself or others. What you will get is resistance. That is worth it a thousand times over. If you're fighting a war, do you go out wearing a bulletproof jacket or not? I'd take the jacket.

It does not help with the argument, that is the problem. If you tell people to get flu shots and then get article like this, do you really think this will make the argument easier?

http://www.parenting.com/news-break/virus-1-flu-shot-0-years-strain-may-be-resistant-to-vaccine

 

[Hylian7]

Why do you want to promote that? In a good year it still is closer to a coin toss. It only weakens the argument for the real discussion.

????

It is offered for free or really cheap in so many places... Other then being allergic, what is the downside to getting it?

By your own logic, would a 50% chance of not getting the flu not be a great thing?

 

[Korey]

Over the last few week I read a lot of great articles post and other inputs about vaccination and how it helped reducing Polio or Smallpox. They are good stories and would actually make valid arguments for vaccination.

But at the end I often read the suggestion: "don't forget your flu shot" and I wonder, why did you have to ruin your success story with that addition? Maybe this is part of this black & white world, you can only be on one side. However, the flu shot is more or less gambling and everybody knows that it is more of an educated guess, unlike the other very successful vaccinations. So why is the flu shot even promoted for the general public?

If you work in healthcare; go get a flu shot. If you are part of a certain risk group, it is a very good idea, maybe as a teacher it also helps you because in schools you are always surrounded with sick kids, but everybody else? If in best case you have a 60% effectiveness and in a bad your only 10-20%, that is not really promoting the idea of vaccination.

"This medicine only has a 60% chance of preventing cancer, and spreading cancer to other people, why the fuck even bother??"

I've reread your post a few times and have no idea what you're arguing.

 

[Already Torn]

That is a nice simplification and does not really cover the flu and flu shots. That is why you can get 10-20 % effectiveness, because with the flu the system is a lot more complex and because of international travel and chance there can be several strains in one year and it is still a guess which one will be most dominant.

That is also why unlike with smallpox even the WHO does recommend the flu shot to groups with higher risks because the herd immunity with the flu is almost not achievable unlike with smallpox or measles. That is why usually with the flu the risk groups get the shot not everybody because it is very unreliable.

Herd immunity with the flu is absolutely achievable. Herd immunity doesn't apply to smallpox because smallpox was eradicated. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Is like your mom scolding you for not getting a flu shot or something?

 

[Trojita]

Maybe we should listen to OP, he's an example of the general populace that doesn't understand science or statistics.

 

[Kazerei]

edit: nm

 

[Trokil]

So is your answer the same as GMOs? That we should just stop because it isn't as effective in the ways you (as in you specifically) want it to be?

Well the problem with GMOs and agriculture is, that we are in the middle of the biggest E.L.E. since several millennia. Agriculture and mono culture fields are the biggest contributors. They are also for climate change.

Each time you start a discussion about GMOs people will yell in year face that it is safe. When you ask about climate change and GMOs used in big mono culture fields and adding to all those problems the will start some mental gymnastics how it will save us someday while even the word organic farming is heresy. In a few years GMOs will magically solve everything. Even suggesting eating less meat or produce food on small scale is somehow complete nonsense even if scientist are recommending it.

It is so black or white people do not even think outside their bubble anymore. Meanwhile let's wait for the magical solution.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Now I see why conspiracy theories are so persistent. People think they're smarter than they are.

 

[MrNelson]

Now I see why conspiracy theories are so persistent. People think they're smarter than they are.

Dunning-Kruger is a hell of a drug.

 

[GamingOblivion]

There is no other side. Get your fucking flu shots.

 

[Trokil]

"This medicine only has a 60% chance of preventing cancer, and spreading cancer to other people, why the fuck even bother??"

I've reread your post a few times and have no idea what you're arguing.

I like this simplification, it is no argument. Flu is not cancer and you will have to get you shot every year for a chance and you want to sell this to the people.

Why do you think this movements are created, if you really want to argue for something with simplifications like this, you will never gain credibility.

All this magical flu cancer armor is cute however and I like how people feel so clever for using them.

 

[Trojita]

I like this simplification, it is no argument. Flu is not cancer and you will have to get you shot every year for a chance and you want to sell this to the people.

Why do you think this movements are created, if you really want to argue for something with simplifications like this, you will never gain credibility.

All this magical flu cancer armor is cute however and I like how people feel so clever for using them.

I think we've reached prime levels of stupidity.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I like this simplification, it is no argument. Flu is not cancer and you will have to get you shot every year for a chance and you want to sell this to the people.

Why do you think this movements are created, if you really want to argue for something with simplifications like this, you will never gain credibility.

All this magical flu cancer armor is cute however and I like how people feel so clever for using them.

Nobody is feeling clever. They are dumbing down a concept in order to try to drill through that impenetrable skull of yours.

 

[Xe4]

Oh, another one of these threads.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1285775&highlight=flu
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=974423&highlight=flu

Let's go over some common arguments.

The Flu Vaccine was only x% effective this year!
This is a misleading statistic, and quite harmful for the vaccination movement. No vaccine is 100% effective, and this would be a big problem, if vaccines were built on the concept of individual immunity. Fortunately, this is not the case. Vaccines are built on herd immunity and even a small reduction in infection rate can make a huge difference in infection rate, and ultimately harm from a virus.

I highly recommend watching these two videos showing why even a low effective vaccine can help you.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science...ous-diseases/influenza/v/flu-vaccine-efficacy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsTR6DYzPvI&ab_channel=C0nc0rdance

Furthermore:

Between 56% and 73% of the population is protected indirectly by flu vaccines, through what's known as ”herd immunity". Herd immunity helps to break the disease's chain of transmission because too few people are susceptible for the disease to be passed on. Lower vaccination uptake lowers this indirect protection.

One estimate was that as many as 1.2m cases of flu may be prevented each year in the UK by flu vaccination. Flu vaccination has been reported to reduce deaths in the over-65s by 4.6% and reduces hospital admissions for pneumonia and flu by around 8.5%.

In recent years there has been a good match between the vaccine and the circulating strains of flu. The 2014-15 flu season was an unfortunate blip. Hopefully, people won't be put off by this one wrong prediction because the consequences of poor vaccine uptake could be huge.

http://theconversation.com/why-have-people-turned-their-backs-on-the-flu-vaccine-this-year-50692

Edit: To be even more clear,

In case you're actually curious OP:

For a given disease, you have a number R. R is the number of people that a single infected person will infect. If R > 1, then each infected individual will infect more than one person and the disease will spread within a population. If R < 1 then it takes many infected individuals to infect another person, and the disease will die out.

R can be expressed mathematically.



This is math-speak, and basically says that R is proportional to (&#8733 three variables which we can modify: d, c, and s.

'd' = Amount of time a person is infectious, measured in [days]

'c' = Number of people encountered each day, measured in [contacts/day]

's' = Fraction of the contacts who are Susceptible to the disease (a number between 0 and 1)

A major goal of epidemic control is to reduce R to a value less than one by manipulating these three variables. Again, if R < 1, then the disease will eventually die out.

I will note here that there are other factors which contribute to R. These correspond to various properties of the pathogen. For instance, if a disease is airborne, like measles, R will be extremely high (R > 10). If a disease is transmitted by fluid contact, like Ebola, R will be much lower (R == about 2). That said, these methods work the same regardless of what pathogen you're talking about:

You can make 'd' smaller by treating the disease early in its course.

You can make 'n' smaller by setting up a quarantine, or telling infected people to stay home from work and school. 'n' also gets smaller if enough people start dying out.

's' gets smaller in one of two ways. (1) people become immune to the disease (e.g., they get the virus and they recover; this is why epidemics burn out) or (2) they are vaccinated.

That is herd immunity, explained in the most basic way. A vaccine does not need to be 100% effective in order to work. It need only be effective enough to reduce R to a value less than 1.0.

Thanks for the explanation, I didn't want to type all that out!

I got sick from the Flu vaccine!
No, you didn't. This is a horrible myth and honestly leads to a lot of people to not getting the vaccine, leading to many deaths every year.

There is zero evidence that the Flu gives you the flu, or any other symptoms aside from soreness:

Can a flu shot give you the flu?

No, a flu shot cannot cause flu illness. Flu vaccines given with a needle are currently made in two ways: the vaccine is made either with a) flu vaccine viruses that have been 'inactivated' and are therefore not infectious, or b) with no flu vaccine viruses at all (which is the case for recombinant influenza vaccine). The most common side effects from the influenza shot are soreness, redness, tenderness or swelling where the shot was given. Low-grade fever, headache and muscle aches also may occur.

In randomized, blinded studies, where some people get inactivated flu shots and others get salt-water shots, the only differences in symptoms was increased soreness in the arm and redness at the injection site among people who got the flu shot. There were no differences in terms of body aches, fever, cough, runny nose or sore throat.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/misconceptions.htm

If you did get the flu, either you were one of the unlucky ones who got the flu dispute the vaccination, or you already had the flu. The body can take up to two weeks to build up its defenses after getting vaccinated.

I got the flu before, and it wasn't so bad!
No, you likely did not get the flu. The flu and cold are often mistaken, due to their similar symptoms. However, the flu is much worse, causing many more complications, and even killing people at times.

If you had the flu and went through something other than a week of absolute misery, you likely were mistaken about your illness, or got very lucky.

Why should I get the flu vaccine, I've never gotten it before?
Congratulations! However, taking precautions against something is always wise, even if you've never been personally effected by it. People still wear seat belts even if they've never been in a bad accident. The same sort of thing, except it effects more than just you.

The CDC has estimated that between 3,000 and 49,000 people died annually from the flu, and that numbers were averaged at 23,000 people per year, and even higher in recent years.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...rage-fluctuates-depending-on-how-you-slice-it

People die, and the flu effects the young and elderly the most. Don't get the flu vaccine for just yourself. Get it for others you know are vulnerable, and feel good that you did your part to keep them alive.

No, the flu vaccine isn't perfect, and will not wipe out the flu until a universal vaccine is developed, but it can save thousands or tens of thousands of lives every year, and improve the quality of life for all.

 

[Jebusman]

I like this simplification, it is no argument. Flu is not cancer and you will have to get you shot every year for a chance and you want to sell this to the people.

Why do you think this movements are created, if you really want to argue for something with simplifications like this, you will never gain credibility.

All this magical flu cancer armor is cute however and I like how people feel so clever for using them.

People are making it simple because you can't understand it. And despite their best efforts, you still don't understand it.

And the further we go along, the further I question how much in good faith you're actually arguing.

 

[Trokil]

Herd immunity with the flu is absolutely achievable. Herd immunity doesn't apply to smallpox because smallpox was eradicated. You have no idea what you're talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

This method was used for the eradication of smallpox in 1977 and for the regional elimination of other diseases

 

[Jebusman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

I think he's referring to the fact that smallpox no longer exists, thus herd immunity is no longer required. It's not something you ever expect to see in the wild again.

The flu is something you do continue to see, so trying to achieve herd immunity for it can only help, not hinder.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I like this simplification, it is no argument. Flu is not cancer and you will have to get you shot every year for a chance and you want to sell this to the people.

Why do you think this movements are created, if you really want to argue for something with simplifications like this, you will never gain credibility.

All this magical flu cancer armor is cute however and I like how people feel so clever for using them.

What is your problem?

 

[Xe4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

You have a fundamental misunderstanding about herd immunity dude. Nobody is claiming that herd immunity is going to wipe out the flu, only that it can decrease the infection rate, and thus save lives. That is a fact, and you trying to deny that the flue vaccine causes herd immunity is ridiculous.

If everybody in America got the flu vaccine except for say 10% of the population, that 10% would be at a far decreased chance of getting the flu, due to immunity from the herd decreasing the rate of infection dramatically. That is herd immunity, and why it is imperative for as many people to get the flu vaccine as possible.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Gaf loves vaccinations.

I kind of agree with the OP. The flu shot is a terrible example of vaccines being safe and effective.

1. Normal people do not understand probability. Normal people do not even understand basic math.

2. Normal people do not understand the difference between a cold and a flu. They get the shot, then get a cold "shot don't work"

3. Stop saying there are no side effects or risks. A lot of people have a reaction as they build antibodies. Yes, it's not as bad as a full infection of the live virus but it sucks.

The CDC, in trying to promote vaccinations should not be sending a confusing message that makes people distrust them. The way people will browbeat you for even bringing it up is sad and counterproductive. If you goal is to get more people to take the shot and not just do some smug ego boosting calling people morons maybe we could all use our big brains and figure out a way to trick the simpletons into getting it.

 

[Opto]

What is your problem?

stealth anti-vax propaganda? maybe they want to feel superior about not getting a flu shot

 

[Xe4]

Gaf loves vaccinations.

I kind of agree with the OP. The flu shot is a terrible example of vaccines being safe and effective.

1. Normal people do not understand probability. Normal people do not even understand basic math.

2. Normal people do not understand the difference between a cold and a flu. They get the shot, then get a cold "shot don't work"

3. Stop saying there are no side effects or risks. A lot of people have a reaction as they build antibodies. Yes, it's not as bad as a full infection of the live virus but it sucks.

The CDC, in trying to promote vaccinations should not be sending a confusing message that makes people distrust them. The way people will browbeat you for even bringing it up is sad and counterproductive. If you goal is to get more people to take the shot and not just do some smug ego boosting calling people morons maybe we could all use our big brains and figure out a way to trick the simpletons into getting it.

This Gaf person, whoever he is, loves science. The science says the flu vaccine works and saves lives. It also says there are very few side effects , and those that do exist are usually a placebo. See my long ass post above.

You're a moron if you don't believe in science. That's not going to stop me from explaining calmly why you are wrong with sources. If calling you a moron worked, I would do that, but lives are at risk, so I will always try to convince you that the flu vaccine is super necessary.

The ignorance of the public is no reason to try to stop saving lives. It just means better outreach is needed.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Gaf loves vaccinations.

I kind of agree with the OP. The flu shot is a terrible example of vaccines being safe and effective.

1. Normal people do not understand probability. Normal people do not even understand basic math.

2. Normal people do not understand the difference between a cold and a flu. They get the shot, then get a cold "shot don't work"

3. Stop saying there are no side effects or risks. A lot of people have a reaction as they build antibodies. Yes, it's not as bad as a full infection of the live virus but it sucks.

The CDC, in trying to promote vaccinations should not be sending a confusing message that makes people distrust them. The way people will browbeat you for even bringing it up is sad and counterproductive. If you goal is to get more people to take the shot and not just do some smug ego boosting calling people morons maybe we could all use our big brains and figure out a way to trick the simpletons into getting it.

Attention everyone: Do not read this.

 

[SURGEdude]

People, look at the OP - a person who argues against verified science regarding the safety of GMO foods (hint: he sides with the loonies).

Don't fall for this shit.

Bingo. I'd like to think he is well intentioned but grossly misinformed. But at a certain point these threads and GMO threads are always the same group of people grasping at straws about how evil it is and then the same group offering well supported rebuttals that get dismissed or ignored.

It's kind of amazing that as a species we can be intelligent enough to create these kind of breakthroughs, and at the same time a sizable number of people can't or won't learn basic probability or food safety.

 

[Already Torn]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

It still no longer applies. I'm not immune to smallpox, you're not immune to smallpox, probably everyone you know under 40 isn't immune to smallpox. So that's not herd immunity protecting you from smallpox, it's the fact that smallpox doesn't exist anymore as far as you're concerned. Herd immunity still works for the flu, it's just that the flu hasn't been completely eradicated yet.

Herd immunity still functions without completely wiping out a pathogen. Again, you have no clue what you're talking about.

If the flu virus was ever completely eradicated because of herd immunity (which you don't want to happen apparently), herd immunity would no longer apply to the flu either.

 

[SURGEdude]

I like this simplification, it is no argument. Flu is not cancer and you will have to get you shot every year for a chance and you want to sell this to the people.

Why do you think this movements are created, if you really want to argue for something with simplifications like this, you will never gain credibility.

All this magical flu cancer armor is cute however and I like how people feel so clever for using them.

I've read this post 6 times in a row and I'm still not sure what the fuck you are trying to say.

 

[Haly]

This debate is dumb and this thread is dumb.

Even if trokil had posed his question in good faith, and I'm not seeing any evidence of such, the conversation is poisoned now and beyond recovery.

Vaccinate me against dishonest devil's advocates and just call it a day.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Gaf loves vaccinations.

Anyone sane loves vaccinations*

 

[tuxfool]

Bingo. I'd like to think he is well intentioned but grossly misinformed. But at a certain point these threads and GMO threads are always the same group of people grasping at straws about how evil it is and then the same group offering well supported rebuttals that get dismissed or ignored.

It's kind of amazing that as a species we can be intelligent enough to create these kind of breakthroughs, and at the same time a sizable number of people can't or won't learn basic probability or food safety.

You stop being well intentioned when you interact with so many people, and your opinions are still those of a loon. All the while claiming to respect science.

 

[Flo_Evans]

This Gaf person, whoever he is, loves science. The science says the flu vaccine works and saves lives. It also says there are very few side effects , and those that do exist are usually a placebo. See my long ass post above.

You're a moron if you don't believe in science. That's not going to stop me from explaining calmly why you are wrong with sources. If calling you a moron worked, I would do that, but lives are at risk, so I will always try to convince you that the flu vaccine is super necessary .

I believe in science. The problem is not the science it's that people don't understand it.

Sure I'll read your sources, what about my crazy aunt though?

You don't even understand I'm not against vaccines but how they are marketed to the public, this is the root of the problem, scientists are generally not great at communicating with the layman. It is very hard, when trying to reach 100% of the population to communicate a complex idea. One approach will certainly not be able to reach everybody.

 

[Already Torn]

I believe in science. The problem is not the science it's that people don't understand it.

Sure I'll read your sources, what about my crazy aunt though?

You don't even understand I'm not against vaccines but how they are marketed to the public, this is the root of the problem, scientists are generally not great at communicating with the layman. It is very hard, when trying to reach 100% of the population to communicate a complex idea. One approach will certainly not be able to reach everybody.

We tried putting it in simpletons RPG terms for OP and he got mad because we weren't respecting his scientific mind.

 

[ugaboga232]

As a medical student about to take my boards, what is going on in this thread and why do people not want to get flu vaccines?

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I believe in science. The problem is not the science it's that people don't understand it.

Sure I'll read your sources, what about my crazy aunt though?

You don't even understand I'm not against vaccines but how they are marketed to the public, this is the root of the problem, scientists are generally not great at communicating with the layman. It is very hard, when trying to reach 100% of the population to communicate a complex idea. One approach will certainly not be able to reach everybody.

No, the root of the problem is anti-vaxxers...not a marketing issue...

 

[tuxfool]

No, the root of the problem is anti-vaxxers...not a marketing issue...

This. Even if "perfect" marketing existed, you'd still get those loons.

 

[Already Torn]

No, the root of the problem is anti-vaxxers...not a marketing issue...

I don't agree with this, or at least not completely. Sure the people spreading and making money off of the antivaxxer movement are just the most amoral and despicable people around, but the problem is that some people are just really really really dumb and will believe anything if it sounds right. Those are the people not vaccinating their kids because they saw something on TV/Facebook that told them not to. It's why Public Health and especially education are so important, but I guess we've sort of just given up on all that because we're not winning anymore.

See our current president for more of this.

 

[SURGEdude]

I believe in science. The problem is not the science it's that people don't understand it.

Sure I'll read your sources, what about my crazy aunt though?

You don't even understand I'm not against vaccines but how they are marketed to the public, this is the root of the problem, scientists are generally not great at communicating with the layman. It is very hard, when trying to reach 100% of the population to communicate a complex idea. One approach will certainly not be able to reach everybody.

Honestly it's the OP and his total disregard for so many of the points made. If I had any faith he wasn't just trying to get a rise out of people I might be able to sorta see a faint glimmer of something worth talking about with regard to how misinformed people might transfer their ignorance of the flu and it's vaccine to other ones.

But am growing less convinced by the minute that we are actually talking about any of that and are instead dealing with OP's pathological distrust of authority.

 

[Wilsongt]

So anti-GMO and now anti-flu vaccine, OP?

 

[Already Torn]

Honestly it's the OP and his total disregard for so many of the points made. If I had any faith he wasn't just trying to get a rise out of people I might be able to sorta see a faint glimmer of something worth talking about with regard to how misinformed people might transfer their ignorance of the flu and it's vaccine to other ones.

But am growing less convinced by the minute that we are actually talking about any of that and are instead dealing with OP's pathological distrust of authority.

I'm imagining that OP is working the night shift at the hospital cafeteria and is just sitting there stewing that his boss made him get a flu shot since there's nothing else to do this late.

 

[Flo_Evans]

No, the root of the problem is anti-vaxxers...not a marketing issue...

anit vaxxers are a tiny subset of the normal population that skips the flu vaccine.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Haha. 'Marketing' is the problem? You mean "you and your children's health benefit from this" isn't good enough marketing?

 

[Deleted member 20920]

I don't agree with this, or at least not completely. Sure the people spreading and making money off of the antivaxxer movement are just the most amoral and despicable people around, but the problem is that some people are just really really really dumb and will believe anything if it sounds right. Those are the people not vaccinating their kids because they saw something on TV/Facebook that told them not to. It's why Public Health and especially education are so important, but I guess we've sort of just given up on all that because we're not winning anymore.

See our current president for more of this.

If we don't have antivaxxers spreading misinformation then these people won't have anything to watch or read about anyway. And thus won't end up not vaccinating their kids.

 

[Already Torn]

If we don't have antivaxxers spreading misinformation then these people won't have anything to watch or read about anyway. And thus won't end up no vaccinating their kids.

Yup! They're the root of the problem, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything to counteract them. I don't think OP is one of those heartless conmen selling books about why you shouldn't get the flu vaccine if that makes sense.

 

[SURGEdude]

I don't agree with this, or at least not completely. Sure the people spreading and making money off of the antivaxxer movement are just the most amoral and despicable people around, but the problem is that some people are just really really really dumb and will believe anything if it sounds right. Those are the people not vaccinating their kids because they saw something on TV/Facebook that told them not to. It's why Public Health and especially education are so important, but I guess we've sort of just given up on all that because we're not winning anymore.

See our current president for more of this.

The human urge to associate our own or 2nd hand anecdotes with absolute truth is a huge problem. I've thought for many years that the absolute root of critical thinking comes down to a person learning that no matter how many times something has happened to them, and no matter how impactful that thing was, it still doesn't make it representative of statistical reality.

 

[Zackat]

In my public speaking class in college, we had debates at the end of the year. The class voted on topics that they felt were controversial and should be debated. This was at the height of the anti-vaxxer movement, so naturally it was chosen.

I am pro-science, so imagine my dread when I drew the short straw and had to advocate for anti-vaccination in our debate. It was absolutely impossible. I spent hours and hours researching and I found not one shred of evidence. I wanted to find the evidence because I wanted to win. Basically I had to get up there and handwave about big bad pharmaceutical companies for the entire debate.

What a waste of my life that was.

It made me respect Republicans and their spin machine a little bit though. I dunno how they do it.