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Radical_3d
Member
Ohhhhh. Non native English speaker. Took me long enough to get this.If you're going to use that abbreviation for Cyberpunk 2077 please, for your safety add 2077 at the end of it.
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
As an end user, no it’s not worth the performance cost.
Ax me again when I get the Rtx 5090. Maybe I’ll change my mind.
Ax me again when I get the Rtx 5090. Maybe I’ll change my mind.
Corporal.Hicks
Member
There are now over 100 games with RT support. In most of them, RT makes a noticeable difference to the quality of the lighting. RT is very demanding, but on my RTX4080S many RT games run at over 60fps even at 4K native. Some games like RE3 remake are so well optimized I get 120-180fps at 4K native with RT. There are only a few RT / PT games where I have to use AI (DLSS / FG) to get at least 80fps at 4K (for example in Alan Wake 2 or Black Myth Wukong), but I do not mind using this technology because it works so well. If I would buy an AMD GPU my RT experience would be much worse though. In some RT games even 79000XTX is 3x times slower than my card, so I would need either lower RT settings, or turn it off completely to play at 80+ fps.
Bojji
Member
This channel makes great review of HDR in new games and provide settings to make them better:
GamingTech
Join me on X: https://x.com/Amok4All Join me on Discord: https://discord.gg/E3bfrecunE buymeacoffee.com/Amok4All
www.youtube.com
Sometimes HDR is just trash but most of the time it looks better (at least to me).
Bojji
Member
Isn't one of the points of new consoles like PS5 Pro to make games look better? RT provides the biggest visual difference, otherwise there are only resolution and scaler differences.
You can see that people are most excited about games that have RT on Pro, like F1/GT7 or DR1.
BbMajor7th
Member
With a handful of notable exceptions (Spider-Man 2) it was too early for consoles. I think it should have been a PC stretch goal this generation that got people excited for the next - consoles can do it, but the trade-offs are brutal. Some of the best-looking games and games on console haven't touched it.
If either manufacturer had been ahead of the curve, they'd have sunk resources into native ML-driven image reconstruction solutions instead. If a version of PSSR had launched with PS5, by now it'd be pushing better than 4K IQ from 900p renders and you could drive every other setting through the roof and make your games look a generation ahead.
If either manufacturer had been ahead of the curve, they'd have sunk resources into native ML-driven image reconstruction solutions instead. If a version of PSSR had launched with PS5, by now it'd be pushing better than 4K IQ from 900p renders and you could drive every other setting through the roof and make your games look a generation ahead.
ThatOneGrunt
Member
I want it in every game I play now. It adds weight to everything in the world. Gives everything a better sense of presence. My computer can handle it no problem so yes. Its one of the best things to happen to graphics in a long time.
Thebonehead
Gold Member
rm082e
Member
Running on my PC (original FE 3080), I have never found RT to be an improvement visually. I remember standing in one of the markets in Cyberpunk with a bunch of different light sources. I turned all the RT bells and whistles on, and I can say the lighting looked a little bit different, but not better. Also my frame rate went from the high 70's to low 20's.
I've also played around with RT in a half dozen or so other games. Even if it were a 5% hit to the performance, I'm just not seeing enough value to be worth it. DLSS/DLAA on the other hand is great.
I've also played around with RT in a half dozen or so other games. Even if it were a 5% hit to the performance, I'm just not seeing enough value to be worth it. DLSS/DLAA on the other hand is great.
Robb
Gold Member
From what I’ve seen of it I’d say no. Seems like a huge cost for OK return currently. I’d rather save on performance in favor of other improvements given the choice.
Once console hardware and AI workarounds improves making RT a lot less of a burden I assume it’ll become the default solution in most cases though.
Once console hardware and AI workarounds improves making RT a lot less of a burden I assume it’ll become the default solution in most cases though.
The Cockatrice
Banned
It was, it's a PC game first and foremost and it was its biggest selling point since they first showed it. I remember all the videos showing how they designed the RTGI.
Efren is G.O.A.T.
Member
I have an RTX 3080 Ti and I use it when it doesn't bring my gpu to its knees.
rickybooby87
Member
RTAO is pretty sweet though. But, do we want RTGI/RTAO/RT Shadows and 372p resolution? That's gonna be a nah from me dawg.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Nope. Games like Spider-Man 2 suggest that if they can do it effectively, it works well (ironically, no different of a situation to PC). The Pro is about to up the ante even more for consoles.
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analog_future
Resident Crybaby
On base PS5/XSX console hardware? Absolutely not.
On a high-end PC and potentially the PS5 Pro? Absolutely yes.
On a high-end PC and potentially the PS5 Pro? Absolutely yes.
OverHeat
« generous god »
What ever you like my friend
30 fps with not even all bells and whistles is not for me.
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FoxMcChief
Gold Member
It can be fantastic.
nemiroff
Gold Member
Developers can indeed keep it in mind from the start of development to try to optimize for it. However, AFAIK, creating games with pure ray tracing lighting requires the complete removal of all raster elements.
That's sort of the remaining annoying issue until the necessary minimum requirements are met by the majority of users. CDPR gave some insightful information about the implementation of RT/PT in CP explaining the occasional overlapping issues, although I cannot recall the source atm.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I'm glad to get your perspective because I was talking to a studio manager at my workplace last week about similar things.
Agreed with pretty much all of that. I often see the studio guys showing up with a bunch of film equipment that includes props and devices to alter the natural lighting to fit the artistic vision of whatever they're working on. Unrealistic = / = bad. In fact, it's also very common in games to have deliberately inaccurate lighting to set the mood of a scene or make it more dramatic.
For instance, look at how deliberately dark and moody this scene in GOW 2018 is.
It's broad daylight and there are holes and gaps in the house where light passes through. It shouldn't be this dark, but it serves a purpose. Little Atreus sitting alone in a dark house with his father in the shadows conveys how lonely he is and the distance there is between him and Kratos at this point in the game. If you had ray tracing instead, the atmosphere would be destroyed and the scene's composition would not tell anything to the player.
With that said, I still believe that those examples are a minority and that by and large, developers wish to have accurate lighting and alter whatever needs to be altered to follow their artistic vision. Films are a great example because they're literally the opposite of video games. They start off with perfectly accurate lighting (duh) that the director or light engineers alter to suit their visions. They're also obviously far easier to control since every shot, every angle, and every source of light can be carefully controlled. Everyone will see the exact same thing and films are only a few hours long, so scenes can be painstakingly curated to look perfect. Games are a different story as they don't start with accurate lighting at all and the artists/engineers have to go through the entire thing and manually place light probes, lightmaps, etc, and they have to take into account that these can be viewed from almost any angle and will interact with various objects. They probably would love for RT to do everything accurately and then go in to modify what needs to be as it would save a lot of time. For the most part, excluding gameplay and story purposes, we want the lighting in games to be accurate.
Cyberpunk is a prime example of a game that has great lighting out of the box but is so large that it's inevitable that the developers screw up. The game is rife with scenes with horrible lighting when not using ray tracing (and even some when using it). Sorry about the overexposed screenshots. Windows destroys HDR.
Non-RT:
vs PT
This is one of those "flat lighting" moments. The radiator thing on the right doesn't even have bounce light which is completely nonsensical. Cyberpunk being open world benefits a lot from ray-traced lighting since most of the time where we're outdoors or even indoors, we just want accurate lighting, not artistic lighting.
Non-RT:
RT:
The Cockatrice
Banned
I know and we will prolly never see that until PS6 gen, maybe not even then.
ShaiKhulud1989
Gold Member
Thanks for great additionI'm glad to get your perspective because I was talking to a studio manager at my workplace last week about similar things.
Agreed with pretty much all of that. I often see the studio guys showing up with a bunch of film equipment that includes props and devices to alter the natural lighting to fit the artistic vision of whatever they're working on. Unrealistic = / = bad. In fact, it's also very common in games to have deliberately inaccurate lighting to set the mood of a scene or make it more dramatic.
For instance, look at how deliberately dark and moody this scene in GOW 2018 is.
It's broad daylight and there are holes and gaps in the house where light passes through. It shouldn't be this dark, but it serves a purpose. Little Atreus sitting alone in a dark house with his father in the shadows conveys how lonely he is and the distance there is between him and Kratos at this point in the game. If you had ray tracing instead, the atmosphere would be destroyed and the scene's composition would not tell anything to the player.
With that said, I still believe that those examples are a minority and that by and large, developers wish to have accurate lighting and alter whatever needs to be altered to follow their artistic vision. Films are a great example because they're literally the opposite of video games. They start off with perfectly accurate lighting (duh) that the director or light engineers alter to suit their visions. They're also obviously far easier to control since every shot, every angle, and every source of light can be carefully controlled. Everyone will see the exact same thing and films are only a few hours long, so scenes can be painstakingly curated to look perfect. Games are a different story as they don't start with accurate lighting at all and the artists/engineers have to go through the entire thing and manually place light probes, lightmaps, etc, and they have to take into account that these can be viewed from almost any angle and will interact with various objects. They probably would love for RT to do everything accurately and then go in to modify what needs to be as it would save a lot of time. For the most part, excluding gameplay and story purposes, we want the lighting in games to be accurate.
Cyberpunk is a prime example of a game that has great lighting out of the box but is so large that it's inevitable that the developers screw up. The game is rife with scenes with horrible lighting when not using ray tracing (and even some when using it). Sorry about the overexposed screenshots. Windows destroys HDR.
Non-RT:
vs PT
This is one of those "flat lighting" moments. The radiator thing on the right doesn't even have bounce light which is completely nonsensical. Cyberpunk being open world benefits a lot from ray-traced lighting since most of the time where we're outdoors or even indoors, we just want accurate lighting, not artistic lighting.
Non-RT:
RT:
Zathalus
Member
Working with good RTGI as a base allows for faster scene iteration and better workflow as compared to previous rasterized methods. It allows artists and level designers to see changes to a scene in real time.
Nothing about RT GI prevents artists and designers from placing fake lights or altering lighting conditions. But generally having good RT GI prevents the need for any of that in the first place.
The developers for Metro Exodus had a good interview on the subject:
The Making of Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition
Metro Exodus's Enhanced Edition is a very important game - it's the first triple-A game we know of that's built on tech…
www.eurogamer.net
The worst offenders are games with raytraced shadows, GI, etc and the game doesn't even have any dynamic ToD or anything that changes lighting drastically. Just bake your lighting, you'll get so much better performance with barely a noticeable change.
diffusionx
Gold Member
I think it really helps with games in urban settings like Spiderman and Watch Dogs Legion. The games kind of overdo it with the reflections but it gives it a much more realistic/authentic look.
ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
I want to use RT all the time, but the performance hit on some games just isn't worth it. It is one of the reason I bought a PS5 Pro, hoping to get to play a lot more games with RT on and still get 60fps...fingers crossed that GTA 6 will run at full fidelity at 60fps on the PS5 Pro...
TheStam
Member
I love path tracing. Cyberpunk still makes my jaw drop when playing it maxed out. You have to see it in motion, pixel peeping a screenshot does't really do it justice. It transforms the atmosphere of a game. The only thing that comes close graphically is Alan Wake 2. There is nothing quite like those two graphically due to this tech. Black Myth Wukong was pretty good too but not at that level.
Looking forward to Half Life 2 with path tracing, but I wish more games had it. This is the true next-gen tech out there and I'm really looking forward to more of it.
The video in the OP was really good. It's true that some games have partial unremarkable implementations of Ray tracing without RTGI and so on, but when it shines it is amazing and worth every frame in my opinion.
Looking forward to Half Life 2 with path tracing, but I wish more games had it. This is the true next-gen tech out there and I'm really looking forward to more of it.
The video in the OP was really good. It's true that some games have partial unremarkable implementations of Ray tracing without RTGI and so on, but when it shines it is amazing and worth every frame in my opinion.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Outlaws and Avatar? Even on console the RTGi in those games is noticeably improved over baked lighting of other games. Black Myth with lumen is a standout as well.
Lucifers Beard
Member
It depends is the only answer I can give you here. Path tracing looks amazing in CP and really changes the atmosphere of the world. Reflections can look good in certain cases but in most games I switch it off as the performance impact is just too dramatic.
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
Plz don't abbreviate cyberpunkI would always trade visual clarity (no upscaling method at all) and 60 fps minumum for RT. That being said, CP really look beautifuil with RT on
March Climber
Member
Eventually, yes.
And eventually this won’t matter either, next gen or the gen after. Time always moves forward, and what’s stupid will cease to be so stupid anymore.
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
Games are also being held back by below 4070 level gpus since even Nvidia won't give good rt performance to anyone paying under 500.
Mister Wolf
Member
Raytraced Lighting On vs Off in Kingdom Come: Deliverence
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Raytracing can’t be turned off.What ever you like my friend
Besides, the game runs at about 40 fps anyway, so it didn’t feel choppy.
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Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
So a game like RE2 remake, with the ugliest SSR artifacts, totally distracting to some gamers, are retards for liking a feature that gets rid of that? As others have pointed out, how it can get rid of distracting shadow cascades that fade in 10 ft from the player while traversing the envirpnment?
That's to say nothing of people with high end PC who get to enjoy games like Cyberpunk, in its neon lit city with rtgi and reflections ...come on now
MadchesterManc
Member
Depends on the game really, and whether its just one effect or others. Reflections I don't always use as they are so lazily implemented at times, its really only RTGI that I notice, and even then that's only in a game that's somewhat dynamic (most games these days are pretty sterile visually). Darktide is one of the best for turning RTX on even tho a pass of RTXGI was used to bake the lighting too, RTGI adds an extra layer of atmosphere as the darkness in missions becomes thicker and light bounces around from skirmishes, reflections also become more detailed and diffused on metal surfaces.
Wolves hunt in packs
Banned
I say no.
Honest to god i can't tell the difference in motion, yeah in screenshots i can see RT shots are "brighter" but when i turn it on, on games like Rift Apart i can barely see any difference.
Perhaps i didn't see a game that really uses RT, and not just some elements of it, but anyway i don't care for it, especially when for most games on consoles it means sucky 30fps, so no thanks.
Honest to god i can't tell the difference in motion, yeah in screenshots i can see RT shots are "brighter" but when i turn it on, on games like Rift Apart i can barely see any difference.
Perhaps i didn't see a game that really uses RT, and not just some elements of it, but anyway i don't care for it, especially when for most games on consoles it means sucky 30fps, so no thanks.
Bojji
Member
Mister Wolf
Member
Software raytracing like Lumen. Raytracing with voxel representation of world.