I'm going to counter your cherry picked verses with my cherry picked verses.. welcome to the world of religion.
Islamic State fighters burn 19 Yazidi girls for refusing to have sex with them
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I'm going to counter your cherry picked verses with my cherry picked verses.. welcome to the world of religion.
perfectchaos007
Member
Not to mention his 3rd wife was 9 or 10 years old when he had sex with her (Aisha). I know it was a different time back then with different cultural values but Muhammad was 43 years older than Aisha.....and he was already married to 27 year old Sawda bint Zam'a. Today, under all circumstances, a 53 year old having sex with a 10 year old is rape. It's hard to wrap my head around this being rationalized as something else 1400 years ago but I guess it was somehow...
Abinash117
Member
I don't think it really matters what excuses that ISIS uses to kill people. No matter what they will twist the religion even if explicitly states that they shouldn't execute or have sex slaves. The point in my view is to control people to commit atrocities and using religion is the smartest, easiest, and oldest tactic. Even if it isn't religion it would be what ever ideology that ISIS will twist to make people kill over individuals like they are less than insects.
You're misinterpreting the Quranic verses, but the Hadiths are pretty blatant about this kind of stuff. Quranic scriptures will always supersede the Hadiths, but it's easy to see where extremists/radicals like those in ISIS would look to in order to justify there behaviour.
It was rationalized as a political marriage, which was common back then, and even now among the elite classes throughout Asia. Her age is usually up for debate, but through her political marriage she would go on to be known for her poetry, medicinal knowledge and military career.
Gabriel_Logan
Member
Lol why wouldn't you just say Nazis instead of a fictional Marvel supergroup based on Nazis?
Yup, and the problem (which has been stated many times) is Muhammad is seen as a beacon for humanity, a man to be emulated.
I give up. Come back to me when you can actually quote from the hadith about the rules governing the making of slaves out of prisoners of war.
Abinash117
Member
ISIS leadership can be said to be similar to a form of fascism. Instead of race it is basically religious nationalism. I think they share many of the same traits of Nazis.
Did you read my post before posting?
I am talking about having sex slaves as booty. Are you gonna refute it? I never said burning part ever here.
Here is your 24:33
But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is [to them], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful.
Where is it any way disbursing what I quoted as Hadith and Quran ?
You accuse me of cherry picking . Yet I am ok with everything you can post regarding scripture. answer my question, are sex booty slavery allowable via Islamic scripture?
Do you need more Hadith and Quran quotes? Since you gonna scream cherry picking? Are the meaning of verse change because of cherry picking?
I did . I damn posted right under your question . And thanks again for not answering my question
No. I am not misrepresent anything. I am simply stating the scripture exactly as it's written . ISIS is telling you where the motivation comes from http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...lavement-yazidi-women-helps-muslims-avoid-sin. Or other major Islamic scholars https://youtu.be/HAZg2lHktXU
Regarding sex slave booty
ISIS is giving their interpretations of those verses in order to justify their behaviour; there are entire books written about those verses, with differing conclusions (as evidenced even by my own link); there's no unanimous consensus there. You're simply stating their perspective, and in a rather adamant fashion as well.
https://youtu.be/HAZg2lHktXU
Famous Islamic scholars.
I don't care what people consensus is about. I am directly quoting Quran and Hadith and that is all. Obviously Muslims have many different ways. This is a debate about the scripture. Did you also notice how no where in your link it was given in its contex of revelation with Hadith . Which is the Islamic tradition . The right hand possession meaning slave is by far the most accepted translation especially with respect to Hadith and sunnah. Even then. It's totally ok if you use just that link version and ignore all Hadith and contex.
Quranic authority supersedes the Hadiths, with regards to any contradictions. I've already noted above that the Hadiths are more blatant about these things and that groups like ISIS use them to justify their behaviour.
Consensus obviously matters, otherwise literal adherence to the scriptures would result in the Islamic world being littered with far more extremism than it currently is.
pacificrex
Banned
Happens every time. Radicals of Islam do something horrible and instead of just talking about how horrible the incident was, an insecure defense force for Islam comes out. To say this kind of thing has nothing to do with religion, that it couldn't possibly have to do with their belief in religion just shows your bias. You've obviously never spent any time in that region of the world or know anything about these terrorists. They memorize the Quran. They speak verses from the Quran as they're chopping people's heads off. To sit here and say that it's all just because they want to ''do whatever they want'' and ''hide behind their religion'' does a tremendous disservice to these murdered girls and everyone else that has fallen victim to these radicals. Why is it so hard to admit they are extreme followers that find reason to do what they do through their religion? How is the world going to properly deal with the problem if we can't even admit to ourselves what the problem is? The only way to combat these radicals is for good Muslims around the world to stand up with the West and fight them to extinction. These radicals will never go down merely through peace talks and will continue to murder their way across the world.
This slave sex womenare not just recent ISIS problem.
What many people don't know about the Arab slave trade , which by numbers was much larger than trans Atlantic slave trade.
And the ingredient of that slave trade was backed up by Islamic jurisprudence . Especially looking at the content as vast majority of slaves by Arab Muslims were females taken away compare to transatlantic where more men were taken for work
Good read to understand the root of the problem isn't just now Isis radicals
http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/06...vement-of-black-people-not-taught-in-schools/
From the article
Arab Enslavers Targeted Women For Rape
The eastern Arab slave trade dealt primarily with African women, maintaining a ratio of two women for each man. These women and young girls were used by Arabs and other Asians as concubines and menials.
A Muslim slaveholder was entitled by law to the sexual enjoyment of his slave women. Filling the harems of wealthy Arabs, African women bore them a host of children.
This abuse of African women would continue for nearly 1, 200 years.
What many people don't know about the Arab slave trade , which by numbers was much larger than trans Atlantic slave trade.
And the ingredient of that slave trade was backed up by Islamic jurisprudence . Especially looking at the content as vast majority of slaves by Arab Muslims were females taken away compare to transatlantic where more men were taken for work
Good read to understand the root of the problem isn't just now Isis radicals
http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/06...vement-of-black-people-not-taught-in-schools/
From the article
Arab Enslavers Targeted Women For Rape
The eastern Arab slave trade dealt primarily with African women, maintaining a ratio of two women for each man. These women and young girls were used by Arabs and other Asians as concubines and menials.
A Muslim slaveholder was entitled by law to the sexual enjoyment of his slave women. Filling the harems of wealthy Arabs, African women bore them a host of children.
This abuse of African women would continue for nearly 1, 200 years.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Nah, ISIS rapes women all the fucking time. They rape women so much and so often that they've even written down rules and guidelines about it.
ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape
Why they didn't simply rape these women like they wanted, instead of burning them, is anyone's guess, but "making an example out of the would-be defiant slaves" seems like a reasonable one.
Sounds about right.
Too true, but you're wasting your time, too many people refuse to acknowledge Islam's role in enabling such ideologies.
Yup
Makes sense; those that stood to profit the most from the slave trade would do anything they could to justify their actions, and utilizing religious interpretations would naturally make it seem kosher to the populace at large. It helped that much of the Hadiths were penned and/or corroborated by Arab scholars at the time, hence the clear political agendas at play, and that is reflected in much of the hadiths: they are fueled by Arab tribalism and fatalism.
Like ISIS, they would clearly have a need to justify their actions, hence the reliance on scriptures they can argue and interpret to work in their favour. It's why I've discussed the need to overhaul much of the hadiths in previous threads.
Not going to disagree.
Problem is that it is part of scripture. Just like a priority was given and clearly said 2:143 " swine ......is prohibited to eat". You think ending slavery be that simply by stating that clearly by the ominopotent would have avoided 100 of millions of slavery of thousand plus years. Pretty sure no Muslim argue that swine is legal by scripture.
You can also see the effect of scripture on slave rape trade in Arabia vs transatlantic
HiredN00bs
Banned
It's amazing what people can do when God is on their side.
What are we supposed to do about this?
What are we supposed to do about this?
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
I hope these people are decimated slowly but surely and feel every ounce of pain they have coming. I have no sympathy for them.
HawksWinStanley
Member
You know you suck when women would rather be burned alive than sleep with you.
RIP, ladies. Sad stuff.
RIP, ladies. Sad stuff.
Just shows how psychotic humans can be if they want to. In their doctrine, they can justify anything, on the spot justice based on how they feel on the day. ISIS are a special kind of evil, I don't see any other option buy annihilation.
Thier enemies are Muslims and most of thier victims are Muslims, theyre clearly just as dangerous to all regardless of religion. It is a new form of brutal Islam that they have made up, which is rejected, I think you don't understand how powerful the rejection from all Muslims is and isolate ISIS and thier kind as outsiders that can be easily identified, and hopefully, entirely removed. You want to see an assessment of ISIS by someone who's been there ? Watch Jurgen Todenhofer assessment, who stayed and lived with them.
https://youtu.be/YRCPRKgAaTg
There is no surprise, they are maniacs that do what they want, speaking verses of a holy book doesn't mean anything as they will find one way or another, to do what they want, and quite often they contradict themselves. They are a recent cult borne from the Iraq/Syria wars, a complete cockup on our behalf. I think it's safe to say as soon as we help stabalise both countries, ISIS will be dismantled, much to the joy of all.
Religions are by definition a reflection of the ideas and beliefs of the humans who wrote them. These rules and traditions don't have any special divine power or psychological ability to manipulate readers beyond that of any other secular rhetoric that promises easy answers and succor to those in search of such things. They cannot turn someone who was not at some level unreceptive of the message into a Zealot who runs around the desert nor could Hitler (to use the trite example) convince millions of Germans (and other Europeans) that Jews, Gays and other ethnic minorities, were the root cause of their trouble without this aspect of humanity. Ultimately, the problem you are looking for exists in humanity itself. At this point, we've conducted numerous tests that show humanity is not made of independent thinkers. Contrary to that, there is a significant portion (30%), of otherwise normal human beings, that willingly induce pain and suffering to fellow humans for the simple reason that they were told to do something by an authority figure. Then you have a second group (~30%) that, in order to fit in, under duress will commit the same actions as the first group if instructed to by someone or something they assume is an authority figure. The amount of people who would flatly refuse to carry out these commands. And these subjects are normal people who grew up in western, "free" societies, were never under threat of harm for disobeying the authority figure, and could have simply stopped what they were doing and left.
Combined with this is the desensitization that happens to the perpetrators as they commit more and more crimes. A big mistake that people, especially conservatives, commit is that they have a tendency to categorize such actions and people as inherently "evil" and that there is a manichean distinction between that and those who are inherently "good". But the truth is that while a small portion of the human population are true psychopaths and feel no empathy, the majority of the people who commit genocide or such brutal acts are completely normal human beings just like you or me. Its just that put into such a situation, they act at a level that is beyond what people consider to be moral or humane. The Rwandan genocide is a more apropos example in this. The accounts of rape and murder, often hacking women, men, and children to pieces, is similar to what is happening among the ISIS held lands today. If you read the actual interviews with the perpetrators, thankfully in jail, the brutalization of the minority population first caused pause and doubt. Often alcohol was used as self medication to help the perpetrators cope with the magnitude of their actions on that first day or hour. This is similar to the accounts of the SS troops when first going town to town murdering Jews in the initial wave of ethnic cleansing. Many of the SS soldiers and other participating units wound up, involuntarily puking, in a drunken stupor. or on heavy doses of medication in the hours after they had participated in the massacre. But as time went on and more were killed, the perpetrators became desensitized to the violence as it became normalized. And after months to years of this behavior, the same people that were emotionally and psychologically destroyed to the point of heavy self medication, would casually toss grenades into the huts of hiding men, women, and children while laughing amongst themselves.
One of the things that has stood out and stuck with me about the behavior of humanity in such environments is more apropos then I could have known back then. Unlike the Holocaust which was perpetrated mostly, but supported by many elements of society, by the military the Rwandan genocide called upon common Hutu citizens to murder their Tutsi neighbors. Pretty much all the direct violence was carried out by the males in society, and on top of rapes of opportunity before murdering female victims, they participated in the practice of enslaving Tutsi woman to be their own sex slaves. And when they got bored of the women, they would kill them quickly or horrifically they would slowly dismember these women piece by piece to add a final moment of personal amusement. This is of course, incredibly disturbing in it's own right, but that isn't the extent of the barbaric behavior. Because, the wives, and female relations of the men would also support or direct additional violence. For them, the genocidal behavior of their husbands, brothers, and fathers became nothing different than a day at work tending the farms or other job, and they acted accordingly. There are also horrifying cases where, a woman would get jealous of her husbands sex slave and order him to murder her or mutilate her face/body before outright killing her.
The ultimate point is, this behavior that you purport is a direct result of religion or of a specific religion is patently false. This type of barbaric behavior has happened in recent times in the context of authoritarian regimes, among different religions (Rwanda is 95% Christian). If you want to go back one can easily find similar behavior:
Of course this was quite some time ago, so we can look at Jim Crow laws, and race based slavery which used cherry picked quotes from the Bible to support the slavery and rape of millions of Africans. But that is still all in the past, lets see how Christians are doing in Africa today:
Oh. Nothing more to say here.
This isn't more ammunition for the "ALL RELIGIONS ARE BAD" logical fallacy crowd. It's just a convenient and more familiar topic to the majority of this forum's readers. So lets, pull back and look at other non-western countries. I'm not posting anymore quotes because, honestly genocide and ethnic cleansings are soul draining, but suffice to say, the Japanese invasion and occupation of eastern Asian countries, Chinese Civil War, and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia have perpetrated equally barbaric crimes of murder, rape, and torture against both civilians and military personnel. These are mainly Buddhist and Confucius societies we are talking about. The latter two are avowed atheist countries who continued their campaigns of ethnic cleansing and human rights abuses after the end of WWII. And, because this topic is unfortunately about rape, we really can't not mention the rape of political prisoners in North Korea, again atheist, which continues to this day.
As I mentioned above, they would do what they do regardless of if a particular religion was common among the group. This accusation that a certain religion that is not any different than it's two older siblings is somehow more dangerous and the "proof" provided by the bigots in this thread is cherry picked quotes that have their facsimiles and similar ideas about gender and slavery established within the other two. The biggest rejoinder to this is "well many modern Christians don't believe in that portion due to their interpretation of their religious text". So on the one hand with Christianity you have people claiming that the text of a book is not in fact the end all of discussion. What gives the Bible any power is the reader choosing themselves to disregard certain sections and elevate others. But lo and behold, come to the Qur'an (and ancillary text that have no religious authority other than what the reader gives it) and it is the holistic text of a magic sky wizard that has a actual power of persuasion over humans. Now of course, this particular text has only one single interpretation, and Muslims must by definition follow every single aspect of that 100% with no deviation. So when some far gone Zealot quotes a verse before going Robespierre on some unfortunate, they have the same exact interpretation and motivation from the religious text as the person who just graduated with a STEM degree so they can provide for their family and after his college loans are paid off maybe buy a Tesla Model S.
If it's not this religion or another, then it will be some secular hatred due to racial, tribal, or cultural differences with a strong underlying current of economic hardship or potential exploitation. All of these crimes are ultimately perpetrated for socioeconomic reasons and sold through hate to the various milieu of human populations via exclusions and persecutions of the "other" group. In one hundred years, the Scientologists will probably be running the Christians through.
As an aside, you want to know why religions and cultures across the globe, including Asian religions and cultures, currently don't view homosexuality in a positive light? Only 3.4% of the population is gay, lesbian, or bisexual. You take a practice that has the potential to cause a revulsion in childish adults, mix in the general conservative viewpoints many in the majority hold about "normative" behavior; and have them write a text or societal rules delineating divinity (pureness) or proper behavior. Subsequently homosexuality, a lifestyle that causes a base revulsion in a subset of heterosexuals but has no actual detrimental effects on any portion of the population, is now a sin or is heavily discouraged. But the sexual behavior that majority of people practice is proper and should not only be praised as a sign of a virtuous person (males only) but inculcated with ceremonial traditions. But please tell me how Islam is totally different from literally every religion and culture worldwide, including one started by a failed science fiction writer a few decades ago.
Are you trolling me? Where did you talk about rules about the *making* of new slaves of prisoners of war?
All you keep doing is talk about whether you are allowed to have sex with slaves.
Do you even know why slavery pretty much died away in the Islamic world?
Separate to that, even people who know little about Hadiths can tell Isil don't give a rat's arse about Islamic theology - given the report in the op. It takes two seconds to Google why, but here you are muddying the waters for your own crusade.
MisterFalcon
Member
There is plenty more to say here. You're making it look like there is persecution of Muslims happening for no reason at all. Like the Yazidis they were just trying to live their lives and then suddenly, just like with ISIS they were attacked. This is very far from the truth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Séléka
Many innocent Muslims are now victims of the backlash caused by the coup but to compare the situation with the Yazidis to make some 'Christians are just as bad' is very misleading. The same with Rwanda. Did anyone in Rwanda start a 'Christian State Of The Thousand Hills', did thousands of Christians worldwide travel to Rwanda to join the holy war ? Did terror attacks worldwide happen when foreign forces intervened by angry Christians on behalf of their religious brothers ?
Yes, that trow me off ward when I went to Bali last year, sometime just seeing a random ISIS flag being painted on a wall or hang out in public. I was shocked.
Zakir Naik, a famous scholar? Prime example of idiocy of simply googling something and swinging it into your favour. Zakir Naik isnt a scholar, hes preecher and a debater who is well versed in Abrahamic literatures. His train of thought is through wahabism.
And this brings me to my point on page 2, which I clearly stated, people who practice Islam for decades still gather more knowledge to better themselves. yet we have people here who rely on "shaykh google" to think they can find answers without having the balls or audacity to actually approach a school of thought and get a real perspective on the matter. Its a dangerous path and is the exact logic and ideology that fuels ISIS, by picking whatever they want willy nilly, and swaying it for their twisted ideology. What qualifies a randomer to simply google a quote and say "look, islams XYZ". Its sheer arrogance, ignorance, and stupidity, and would
be rediculed in person if such debate was to happen with a renouned scholar such as Shaykh Hamza Yousaf or Peer Saqib Shami, or Sheikh al Yaqoubi, as an example. If you think isolating yourself and reading Quran and Hadith makes you (or anyone) versed in Islam, then that level of ideology is the same as trying to debate someone who is a heart surgeon and has practiced his profession for years, verses a person who just has learnt a book about heart surgery back to front, and quotes from it. If you dont have a 'madhab' to follow which has been established shortly after the time of Prophet, then you are lost even before you have started.
If you dont care what people "consensus" is about, then, why did you try and find a "scholar" Zakir Naik to sway your opinion? Clearly you do care about peoples perspective that only suits you, therefore making you a hypocrite.
Scholars have spent years refuting Al Queda and ISIS, and have multitude of scholars prior to 911 who have written books, seerah, taught fiqh, fatwas, amongst god knows how many other encyclopedia worth of information and extraction from the quran to streamline
the actual knowledge of the quran, and the thought pattern of what Jihad really is. No one here has read the book of "Refuting ISIS" by Sheikh Al Yaqoubi or other books for that matter, but have got an egotistical approach to think they know Islam by using google. What a joke.
You know, if I was God, I would make sure my revelation is easily accessible and understandable to everyone. There'd be no way to interpret it to mean that slavery is ok, for example. I'd also make sure it's all cleanly contained within one book, not one primary book and several other lesser books of dubious legitimacy. The book would be in all languages, and available to everyone. No need for scholars to interpret it, as the language would be clear and simple.
But that's just me.
But that's just me.
Interceptor
Banned
That's the second time i read that strawman now. The Quran is no rocket science and honestly not hard to understand. Its basically a diary of a warlord written on the fly to give his daily needs a divine authority. It contradicts itself multiple times and is actually quite dull to read. It's essentially a whole book of "Hey Mohammed we just pillaged that city but why do you demand so much more bounty this time?" - "Ohhh message from god incoming, yeah he just told me i totally deserve half of it. Deal with it"
Comparing it with other scripture is a joke. The Bible is a collection of some fairy tales, the Quran is a guidebook to take control over your entire life, created by a warlord to keep people in their place under his rule and certainly no rocket science. It also strongly encourages a "we versus them" mentality and by we it means muslim males.
Well any one can make anything sound stupid, much like Athiesm, where we believe something came from nothing and *BAM* Big Bang, then we became evolved by sum apes and *TADA* here we have humans, just because some old fart said so, and we are just living lives just for the the fun of it. But we all know theres a significance of depth and logic to that.
Its certainly not clutching at straws if its a perspective that had widely been practised for centuries even during the Prophet days where his Sahaba would ask the meaning of this, and if it was so easy to understand, why is there so many sects in abrahamic religions including Islam? you going to tell me that a few hundred million muslims, christians and jews from the beginning to now are just genuinely thick that they cant read a book? Please get real.
The U.S. Government will create more of these groups somewhere down the line.
Interceptor
Banned
Why are there so many sects plus implying the existence of sects makes the source material complicated? Please. Literally millions of muslims have killed each other and still do because they couldn't decide which cousin to follow after Muhammad. That's all. No heart surgery. Please get real. You are a grown human being spending your life discussing and defending the diary of a warlord that's been dead for 1400 years. Think about it.
Err actually it does, hence why we have scholars, but oh please guru interceptor, you CLEARLY are the most versed compared to Scholars, so I must take advice from the oh hath of a neogaf forumer.
Yes theres killing between Sunni and Shiah, so what? Killing happens all over the globe in each faith, look at Burma V Muslims, Israel V Palestine and the destruction USA and UK caused to Syria killing innocent lives, and so much more, but when the word "muslim" comes to play, thats when the egotistical forumers come out and play, thinking they are philosophical geniuses. I believe what I like, and your piss poor oppinion wont change that.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Religion: "rationalizing" how people could be animals to each other since the dawn of mankind.
The very notion of 'we - believers - good, they - non-believers - bad' is where it all stems from. It's a superiority complex put in a judicial form.
The very notion of 'we - believers - good, they - non-believers - bad' is where it all stems from. It's a superiority complex put in a judicial form.
Interceptor
Banned
I am no guru. I just don't waste my life being an expert in the semantics of the brothers grimm pretending that everyone who reads "kill the jew" as "kill the jew" just didn't get the deeper meaning of world peace hidden in some yambus of verse 1069.
Replace Warlord with messenger of God and you may yet understand why he takes this stuff seriously.
As to why he should take this messenger of God more seriously than others, we'd have to allow for religious discourse to take place. Which I think you find so terrible, and yet here you are. Taking part in religious discourse.
MisterFalcon
Member
All the quotes from an ancient book cannot mask the fact that 19 people are now dead because of what is written in that book.
You do a disservice to the book by suggesting the transgressors of the book's laws are dead because of the book it self.
There are cases that are difficult or ambiguous to analyse. This is not one of them. Isil clearly don't give a toss.
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