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Joss Wheddon Thread (Buffy, Angel, Firefly, X-Men)

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Escape Goat

Member
Okay, I just got done watching the series finale of Angel and I had a few questions about it. Since no one had created the Wheddon thread yet I took it upon myself to do so. So, having said that we'll move right along...

I'll use spoiler tags just because they are fairly big events and would hate to spoil them for long time fans who haven't seen it yet.

What is up with Wheddon lately? He jams a death scene in both his finales and expects the audience to care. Anya dies in a 2 second clip and shes not seen again! Wesley dies and we get a nice Fred/Wesley scene but no one else really seems to care. That might be because by the time they find out the friggin episode ends! It just ends. Thats it. The End. Stick a fork in it we're done. Someone please tell me theres a part two to this episode!

So Team Angel take down the Black Thorn group. Whoop dee doo. Where did Lorne go? What happened to the Shan Shu prophecy? What happens to Spike after they kill those hoarding demons? It didn't feel like a series finale at all like Buffy. I was really disappointed. Plus, no Cordelia or Fred really made the cast feel stale.
 

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
Wheddon isn't quite Wheton, but I suppose it will do.

Anyway, I thought the Angel finale was great. Sure, it shouldn't have been the series finale but I still enjoyed the hell out of it.

Also, I disagree with what you said about...I guess I'll spoiler this, but the episode aired weeks ago and if you haven't seen it...see it!

the deaths. Anya's was just thrown in, but I do like that it wasn't Andrew. He was expecting to die, everybody expected him to die, and Anya did instead. Wesley's death, though, was given a good deal of time. The scene with Illyria asking "Do you want me to lie to you now?" was incredible. I also thought that Lindsay's death was handled better than I could have expected.

As far as "What's next?", it was to be assumed that they all died fighting that horde of demons. If any of them survive, we will have to wait to see how the characters are continued on, whether in some sort of movie/miniseries or a new spin-off.
 

border

Member
For Florida Whedon fans:

Mercedes McNabb ("Harmony" from Angel/Buffy) and Elizabeth Anne Allen ("Amy" from Buffy) will be at Dreamcon this weekend. It's Florida's biggest comic/film/horror/sci-fi/fantasy/tech convention.

More importantly for me, the cute-as-a-button Jewel Staite ("Kaylee" from Firefly/Serenity) will be there. I can't wait to have her autograph my Firefly DVDs, and hopefully hear her comment on when Serenity is due to start shooting. If she's not charging an arm and a leg I might get my picture with her as well ;)

If any non-psycho GA'ers that I know want to grab a drink at the hotel, I should be around...
 

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
I was really disapointed in the Angel finale, next to no closure except for
Wesley
and after the years of hyping up angels roll in the big fight, it seems that when the big fight came all he was gonna do was
die
But we didnt get to see that either!
 

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
Mashing said:
The name is Whedon... not Wheddon, not Wheton and most certaintly NOT Wheaton.

;)


Just for the record, I was making the joke based off of the title of the old thread.
 

DarkAngyl

Member
border said:
For Florida Whedon fans:

More importantly for me, the cute-as-a-button Jewel Staite ("Kaylee" from Firefly/Serenity) will be there. I can't wait to have her autograph my Firefly DVDs, and hopefully hear her comment on when Serenity is due to start shooting. If she's not charging an arm and a leg I might get my picture with her as well ;)

.


Wicked! Jewel just rocks. :) She is so adorable.
 

keiichi

Member
Be careful, that page has a HUGE spoiler. :(


Source: http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=17742

Today was (as I think you know) the first day of filming of Serenity....The real news, and you heard it here first, is that Universal has thrown down an official release date! So mark your calendars, Browncoats, 'cause if you're planning to get married on April 22nd 2005, you better change the date. Seriously. Who gets married in April? Just change it.
 

golem

Member
I thought Angel ended on a great episode... it was more of a mission statement episode than one to wrap up all the storylines neatly, stating Team Angel's purpose, to fight evil no matter what the odds. Also it conviently left their fates open to interpretation for the legions of fangirls and fanfic writers, oh and also for any possible official sequels.
 

border

Member
Akkk, if Serenity starts shooting today, then how can Jewel Staite be at a con this weekend? Damn, I'm not even going to bother attending if she isn't there...
 

SFA_AOK

Member
I've been watching the series since my exams finished and I thought the fifth season rocked all kinds of ways from Sunday.

I'll get the bad out the way: it got off to a slow start (I wasn't a fan of some of the MOTW eps this season) and the one about the Submarine sucked. Also, maybe I was beginning to grow resistant to the curveballs but I spotted some of the surprises coming. I knew it was going to be Spike on the sub, in fact, the Spike and Angel back history was kind of overdone I think.

As for the rest... It was great.

People may not remember what I said about Angel before I started watching it properly but I wasn't a huge fan - I caught the first series in a bit of a jumble and the first and last episodes of the second season and I was kind of glad I didn't waster my time.

But this year at uni, I've been watching the DVDs and catching up and I grew to like it. Season 1 = serious meh. Seasons 2 and 3 were patchy but overall, good stuff. Season 4, it really got going. I think the move to W&H and introduction of Spike really worked for the show, there was something different about the tone of how it felt that I liked about it... 4 was claustrophobic, it was a lot of time in the hotel, a lot about Connor, the time span was a short period. 5 was different from all that obviously but I liked it better. Also, I really liked the themes in the fifth season, I liked how dark it was.

As for the finale... It was great!

Seeing Wes go was sad. I think he was my favourite character, he was broken and flawed and that's cool. Ever since he was shot he got better and better and yeah, he became a bitter loner who liked to drink scotch but that's the very definition of cool right?! (My housemate disagrees :p)

As for the ending, I wouldn't say we were left to presume they died... I mean, if there was another season/film/tv-film/whatever at least some of them would get out and yet if there's not a continuation, maybe they did die? I think that you're definitely meant to think that they could have died but they went out fighting and that's what counts*, that's what matters but I don't know... I'm not sad because I think of them as dead, I'm sad because a good show that was really in its prime got cancelled and I don't think they were done yet. Joss said with Buffy, it wasn't so bad, it was coming to a natural end but with Angel, they were just hitting their stride. But yeah, I'm in this weird state of thinking that they did die and yet, somehow they got out of it. Maybe I'm catching overtones of the "No matter how many apocalypse's you stop, there's always going to be another right around the corner" theme that came out in this season.

* Cue SSX to come in and tell me that Joss has said that they did die unequivocaly :p

So yeah, a great last season and it sucks to see it go.

Hamburglar:

> Someone please tell me theres a part two to this episode!

It's meant to leave you that way :)

> So Team Angel take down the Black Thorn group. Whoop dee doo. Where did Lorne go?

He wanted out of the lifestyle. Just take it that he left and didn't want to be found...

>What happened to the Shan Shu prophecy?

Angel "signed away" his "right" to become human. It was near the start of the episode, the Black Thorn Group asked him to do it because they were worried he was playing them.

> What happens to Spike after they kill those hoarding demons?

You mean the ones he snatched the baby from? I'm guessing he killed them then gave the baby back to the mother.

> It didn't feel like a series finale at all like Buffy. I was really disappointed. Plus, no Cordelia or Fred really made the cast feel stale.

They were both dead.

Buffy did tie things up nicely but they went a different route with Angel. Angel's always been darker though and like I said earlier, I think the way it ended might have something to do with the fact that it wasn't ready to go yet.
 

SFA_AOK

Member
golem said:
I thought Angel ended on a great episode... it was more of a mission statement episode than one to wrap up all the storylines neatly, stating Team Angel's purpose, to fight evil no matter what the odds.

Yeah that sums up my take quite nicely. I read a review somewhere that said Team Angel's way of fighting evil was to fight until no one was left standing.
 

Escape Goat

Member
He wanted out of the lifestyle. Just take it that he left and didn't want to be found...

I know, I watched the episode. I got all that. It just comes down to the fact that Angel wasn't ready to be finished. A major cast member leaves but thats all the resolution we get?


Angel "signed away" his "right" to become human. It was near the start of the episode, the Black Thorn Group asked him to do it because they were worried he was playing them.


Yeah, so I saw. But when you have a shanshu prophecy being discussed since Buffy Season 1 or 2, you can't just let it hang in the air like this. It was the series finale!


You mean the ones he snatched the baby from? I'm guessing he killed them then gave the baby back to the mother.


Well, no. I meant after the very end battle. Does he go back to Buffy? Does he stay with Angel? Do they all die? Again, not a good wrap up.

They were both dead.


Obviously, but there was a serious lack of estrogen on the show. The whole feel of the cast was changed by not having either of them around.


And I did like how Spike finally got recognition for his poem about Cecily. LOL. They probably didn't know what efulgent meant and laughed and cheered because of it.
 

LakeEarth

Member
Sorry for the delay, I just got approved. I did laugh when I saw the name of the thread, I had a feeling it was a joke. I begged for over a year for a mod to just come around and fix the name of that thread, but alas, no one ever did.

And since I've talked so much about it, I'll just say that I loved the ending. I really hope when they make the Angel videogame (and they better goddamn make it) that the final stage is fighting off that horde! That would just rock!
 

Escape Goat

Member
I thought they've shown in Buffy and Angel that prophecies aren't for certain. The Father will kill the son...he sort of did but then again he didn't.
 

BuddyC

Member
Remember that this is the Angel series finale, not the ending of the Buffiverse. Therefore, things will be let unresolved until the universe itself is concluded, either in another television show or a feature film.
 

SFA_AOK

Member
Sorry Teh H, I thought from your original post you had missed some details in the show, hence my reply that's led to all the "Yeah, I know that" from you :)

Teh Hamburglar said:
I know, I watched the episode. I got all that. It just comes down to the fact that Angel wasn't ready to be finished. A major cast member leaves but thats all the resolution we get?

Yes, sadly :/ I could see Lorne being worked back in again if there was another series...


Teh Hamburglar said:
Yeah, so I saw. But when you have a shanshu prophecy being discussed since Buffy Season 1 or 2, you can't just let it hang in the air like this. It was the series finale!

Yeah, it was a bit unsatisfactory but then, I think not giving you all the answers on a plate is part of the point with the finale. It's meant to leave you begging for more.


Teh Hamburglar said:
Well, no. I meant after the very end battle. Does he go back to Buffy? Does he stay with Angel? Do they all die? Again, not a good wrap up.

What happened to all of them? It's meant to leave you guessing. It certainly didn't look good for them, Angel seemed to make it pretty clear they were most likely going to die... I choose to believe they could've gotten out of it some how because I get the feeling that season 6 would have been pretty much Team Angel vs the minions of W&H.

I think the message of that final moment was "While you still can, keep fighting even if the odds are shit"

Teh Hamburglar said:
Obviously, but there was a serious lack of estrogen on the show. The whole feel of the cast was changed by not having either of them around.

I didn't miss Cordy tbh. Fred becoming whatsitsname was interesting... I think I'm a sucker for those "Unhuman thing realising what it is to be human" type storylines, even if it felt like a bit of Star Trek had crept into Angel.
 
SFA_AOK said:
Fred becoming whatsitsname was interesting... I think I'm a sucker for those "Unhuman thing realising what it is to be human" type storylines, even if it felt like a bit of Star Trek had crept into Angel.


Yea, I just got that part spoiled for me by that buffy.nu article (I've watched Seasons 1 & 2 and just started Season 3, all on DVD). Although, I guess I should have recognized Amy Acker in all that makeup when I watched the Season 5 finale.
 

SFA_AOK

Member
DJ Demon J said:
Yea, I just got that part spoiled for me by that buffy.nu article (I've watched Seasons 1 & 2 and just started Season 3, all on DVD). Although, I guess I should have recognized Amy Acker in all that makeup when I watched the Season 5 finale.

It wasn't easy when I saw it. I had to check it was the same person!
 

Anyanka

Member
About what happened with Anya in the finale...

Joss has said there was no point to Anya's death. There was no deep meaning or closure or anything. It was meant to be short, shocking and without payoff. The idea was that in real life in a war like that nobody has a big dramatic death in slow mo. People just die in the middle of the fight. He wanted to do that with a major character. Just have them fall in battle at random. He also wanted a serious toll for the battle, to make the Bringers and Ubies look dangerous. Buffy had been saying how people will die and all that all year so he felt that had to be true. It couldn't be another "we're not all gonna make it" battle where everyone ends up fine in the end. He couldn't do it to any of the core 4 or Dawn without it being too depressing and Emma Caulfield was done with the Buffyverse for sure, so he picked Anya. Originally we weren't even going to get the closure of Xander finding out(and Andrew lying about it to make her look good). He added that at the last minute.

Personally, I really hate it. I see where he was coming from, but I don't think it's worth it. It's not worth killing a major character for shock or to put over Bringers as a threat. I hate the way the scoobies don't seem to care. Xander gets over it in like a second and the others don't even seem to notice. Talking about the mall is more important than saying something about Anya. Same with Spike's death too. It sucks. It's my most hated moment in the entire Buffyverse. Anya is my favorite character and even though it's been a year it still really upsets me.
 

fart

Savant
oh, fyi for those who are joining us and are catching up on buffyverse, this thread is always filled with spoilers
 

LakeEarth

Member
I agree with Anyanka

That's why I liked Wesley's death. Not only did it mean something, but when the Angel crew found out they were all visibly shaken, but they couldn't mourn because of the coming army approaching them. It's better then the buffy crew that seemed to just plainly not care.
 

LakeEarth

Member
fart said:
personally i thought that whole episode was pretty dumb. the angel finale was much better

I thought all of season 7 was the biggest trashpile ever. And you can't say it was because "Joss Whedon was too busy with Firefly" because Angel Season 4 sure as hell did fine without much of his input (though I'm sure he had input for both shows)
 

Anyanka

Member
fart said:
oh, fyi for those who are joining us and are catching up on buffyverse, this thread is always filled with spoilers


So....spoiler tags needed or not?


I liked the reaction to Wes dying from the gang. Not much, but you could tell they were upset. That's really all I ask for in regards to Anya. A big funeral isn't needed, but they could at least CARE that she is dead.

It's especially stupid with Spike. One of the big things in season 7 was that nobody believed in Spike except Buffy. Giles went so far as to betray her just because he thought Spike couldn't be trusted. In the end he was wrong. In the end Spike gave his life to save the world and what is Xander and Giles' reaction? NOTHING. Not a word. Not even a sad look. They barely even seem to notice.

The worst part about this is that it wasn't a time issue, it was just so that Joss could do his stupid joke about the mall. I understand what he was going for: he wanted to end it with some of that old school irreverent joking the series was known for, but at the expense of a proper send off for two major characters? That's just weaksauce.



And yeah, Not Fade Away is a lot better than Chosen. Many things about Chosen bug me. I HATE how the First Evil just goes away. They hype it up as the ultimate big bad and in the end Buffy tells it to go away...and it does. That's it. That's the big finale. That's how the biggest bad of them all is beaten. It goes away when asked nicely. Why didn't she try that with Adam or Glory? Maybe they would have bailed too.

In the end it wasn't even defeated, what's stopping it from just making another army of ubies at another hellmouth? It's very unsatisfying.


I also hate how Caleb was built up as a major threat from out of no where, he even got to permanetly injure Xander, and all it lead up to was a 2 minute fight in the opening. Why wasn't he in the final battle? What was the point if he was just filler?
 
Anyanka said:
[/spoiler]

Personally, I really hate it. I see where he was coming from, but I don't think it's worth it. It's not worth killing a major character for shock or to put over Bringers as a threat. I hate the way the scoobies don't seem to care. Xander gets over it in like a second and the others don't even seem to notice. Talking about the mall is more important than saying something about Anya. Same with Spike's death too. It sucks. It's my most hated moment in the entire Buffyverse. Anya is my favorite character and even though it's been a year it still really upsets me. [/spoiler]

That's pretty much exactly how I feel. Every single character in the series that had a decent amount of time spent in the series got an appropriate ending. Even Jenny who wasn't even in the series too long got a pretty good one. And it could be used as the "shock" ending too, just for seeing Giles' face when he finds her laying in his bed. The problem with Anya's death is no one seemed to care. This went right back to why she always hated humans in the first place and why she for awhile didn't want to go back to being human. Because she knew that they'd forget about you the second you were gone. And that's what happened, no one even seemed to notice she was gone outside of Xander and Andrew. It sucked even more since Anya became my favorite character for the final 2 seasons since they ran Buffy into the ground.

"I thought all of season 7 was the biggest trashpile ever. And you can't say it was because "Joss Whedon was too busy with Firefly" because Angel Season 4 sure as hell did fine without much of his input (though I'm sure he had input for both shows)"

buffy2-0239.jpg


"Blame me! Blame me! It's all my fault."
 

LakeEarth

Member
Oh don't get me started on the first evil!

I mean I thought the season was building to him become corporeal and kicking ass with various forms. But you get nothing, he does NOTHING! Here I am thinking we were gonna get like 4 episodes with him reigning terror on Sunnydale... instead we get slow episode after slow episode until the final, which felt like an emergency "the whole season didn't lead to anything" feel to it.

Why make a bad guy who can turn into anything he wants without having Buffy battling old baddies from the past. Instead we get the first being 85% buffy, 6% random Slayer in Training, 8% Spike and 1% someone INTERESTING!
 

fart

Savant
SolidSnakex said:
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. Every single character in the series that had a decent amount of time spent in the series got an appropriate ending. Even Jenny who wasn't even in the series too long got a pretty good one. And it could be used as the "shock" ending too, just for seeing Giles' face when he finds her laying in his bed. The problem with Anya's death is no one seemed to care. This went right back to why she always hated humans in the first place and why she for awhile didn't want to go back to being human. Because she knew that they'd forget about you the second you were gone. And that's what happened, no one even seemed to notice she was gone outside of Xander and Andrew. It sucked even more since Anya became my favorite character for the final 2 seasons since they ran Buffy into the ground.

"I thought all of season 7 was the biggest trashpile ever. And you can't say it was because "Joss Whedon was too busy with Firefly" because Angel Season 4 sure as hell did fine without much of his input (though I'm sure he had input for both shows)"

buffy2-0239.jpg


"Blame me! Blame me! It's all my fault."
so true

i say we just spoiler tag the thread title or put it in the first post. we can have another spoiler free thread once the season starts again (although what are we going to talk about? fuck)
the problem is there are already tons of spoilers in this thread if you aren't caught up, and there's no way to talk about the buffyverse without letting stuff slip that happened years ago
 
oh, and if anyone seems to care... that link that fart posted... have a good look at some of those links down the bottom.

Some revealing information in there. :D
 
LakeEarth said:
DAMN YOU NOXON!!!!

I'm completely serious too, it's completely her fault. She admitted in several interviews that she'd read message boards and listen to fans at Con's and their feedback would influence the way the show would be written. Joss said when he was the head of Buffy he never listened to anyone, he had a vision down and it went straight into the direction, if someone didn't like it that's their problem. That's why you had people getting killed that you didn't expect, or who you liked.

Another of Noxon's problems is she had no idea how to balance the romance side of Buffy with the action side. It was completely screwed up when she took over in Season 6 and 7. Joss knew exactly how it should be balanced so it didn't seem like some teen drama. You'd have a good amount of action but enough drama to keep everything flowing correctly. Noxon was good with just doing writing for the series where she had no influence on how events went down. Proof of this is in the episodes she wrote, like "What's My Line 1&2", "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" and "Surprise" in Season 2. She's an awesome writer. She just didn't know how to run the show.
 

LakeEarth

Member
I agree. In season 7, it just seemed that the action scenes were tacked on just cause she had to put one in somewhere, instead of the fight being intregal to the story.
 

Anyanka

Member
Marti isn't to blame. Some may not like the direction season 6 went in, but it was consistent. Like it or not, it had a single theme and it followed it well.

Season 7 is just a mess. Things are dropped, nothing makes sense, the direction changed several times. It's like 6 different writers all worked on it without ever bothering to meet to make sure everything made sense.

Just look at say, Selfless. In the end Anya decides she needs to discover her true self once and for all. What happens? One ep later it's basically dropped and she spends the rest of the season on the couch making jokes or having break up sex with Xander. Or take Dawn. The first 4 eps have a heavy focus on her going to SD high again. What happens? It's totally dropped and she spends the rest of the season doing research. Xander never even had an arc. Another good example if Spike's trigger. The issue is resolved and several eps pass, then at random Giles FREAKS OUT about it. He insists something must be done right now and that it's this huge big deal and the world depends on it. He even goes against Buffy over it. WTF? It hadn't been a deal for like a month. It just suddenly comes up again with no explination.


FE was such a massive disappointment. I had so much hope for it. It's a great concept and such an awesome choice for a final big bad. How can you top a god, cyber demon, giant snake, ect.? Easy..a primordial, all seeing, all knowing, eternal spirit that is the very origin of evil...very cool stuff. It ended up being such a waste. It's plan makes no sense. It spends most of the season going after SITs and trying to end the Slayer line, yet in the end it drops it and instead claims it's going to become corporeal when it's ubies outnumber people. Huh? Where did THAT come from? Hardly anything about it is explained too. Where did the ubies come from? Who put the seal there? Why would lots of ubies = it can become flesh anyway? Plus it comes off as very stupid. Why did it bring Andrew and Jonathan all the way to SD? It goes through all the trouble of having them return and having Andrew kill Jonathan then it turns out Jonathan just "doesn't have enough blood". That's so silly. Then later we find out just any blood can open it, as Buffy and the SITs open the seal by cutting their own hands. There's also the fact that that demon girl in First Date and whoever released the ubies in End of Days had opened the seal without the use of that knife Andrew had. So if just any blood can open it, what was the poitn of going through all that work? Why not just get a Bringer to do it? Is FE just retarded or what?
 

Anyanka

Member
FE is cool in Amends.

Ever notice it touches Angel though? They totally changed it's mythos for season 7. In Amends the Bringers were not just cronies or minions, they were high priests who were actually summoning it and controlling it's manifistations.

It's funny how it's "true form"(or whatever that demony looking thing it morphs into) was recycled 3 times. Every time they show it it's the EXACT same CGI.
 
fart said:
did you watch amends? the first evil was retardation, inc. from day one

It had potential to be cool. I remember everyone on the forum watching the show was extremely excited about the First Evil after watching "Lessons", which was just an awesome episode. The first few eps of Season 7 were really good in fact if you go back to watch them. It really seemed to be building up to something really big and then it just stopped. The First never really became anything significant. The "Potentials" were just incredibly dull. They never followed up on the whole thing about Joyce telling Dawn not to trust Buffy (yes i'm still pissed about that :) ). It just completely fell apart and they never seemed to be able to pull everything together.

As good as Conversations is, looking back on the eps it seems like that's the one that was the beginning of the seasons downfall.
 

LakeEarth

Member
At first I thought it's idiocy was part of the plan. My idea was that the destruction of the hellmouth, and destruction of the entire UberVamp army, plus the creation of dozens of new slayers would be the 'trigger' to de-balance the world, turn it "too good", making the universe have to rebalance itself, therefore making The First Evil corporeal.

After the big battle, I was thinking he would pop up, pretending to be mad about losing everything, Buffy puns, and then the First (I imagine him being looking like Caleb at the time), cover his face, then begin laughing like mad and then punches the bus they were in, making it flip down the road into the Sunnydale pit killing the 3 or 4 characters still in it. Then a giant fight ensues with the FE breaking necks, turning to various monsters (including the return of The Beast just for the hell of it), killing newly made slayers left and right. The sun goes down and Angel re-appears with the Angel crew, big major battle until the FE gets beat down so much that he loses his strength and becomes untouchable again. He screams in anger, after a speech he disapears... Buffy collapses, and everyone still alive actually start to look the slightest bit upset that some people fricken died for godsake.
 

Anyanka

Member
Yeah, the Joyce haunting in CWDP is one of the bigger examples of stuff getting dropped. Jane Espenson blows it off by saying it was just FE, but that's total crap. FE had never done a haunting like that before or after that incident. It was not FE-like at all. That demon thing was attacking Dawn and was breaking stuff in the house. That was something much different than the usual FE screwing with you.


I think the biggest problem in season 7, the one thing that lead to so many other problems, is introducing FE too early. Once they brought it out in the open and brought int he SITs every other arc was dropped and the focus was entirely put on that....but they still had like 12 eps to go. The entire reason Caleb was brought in was because they realized they were dealing with a villain that can't do anything on it's own and they had to stall.

They should have had FE stay in the background and done more monster-of-the-week type eps.
 

Escape Goat

Member
There was a season 7 of Buffy? *continues to block the entire year from memory*

Compare it to season 4 of Angel. I feel embarassed for Buffy team! The focus went from scoobies and Buffy to SITs and Buffy/Spike. I wont go into why the season utterly failed on all levels because I think others have pinpointed them exactly.
 
I expected the end battle to be bigger than it was also. I really don't even think the Potentials should've even entered the show. Maybe a few of them, but by the end they had too many. It should've been like Angels. You have a core group and they're overcoming incredible odds like the series has always been about. You don't go get a big gang to come and help you out. The Potentials really didn't even add anything to the show really. They were just there really, not really serving any purpose. Well i'm sure Ham would disagree on this one due to the fact that Season 7 introduced his favorite Buffyverse character:

7e16storyteller4.jpg


:)

The whole Joyce thing definetly was a FE haunting. You could tell the difference between when he was haunting someone and when something was really happening. It was obvious just how people were acting that he'd taken over that they weren't the same person. Joyce acted like Joyce though and really didn't do anything evil. To me it kinda seemed like they were going to make Buffy evil at the end some way, but changed their mind and had to write around it.
 
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