KILLZONE 2 - The |OT|

AranhaHunter said:
That really sucks, I don't like that at all.
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Well that will make you try and do your best, including good teamwork. Hopefully that will prevent us from having to play with stupid 13yo kids who don't know what teamwork is..
 
The links were worth it overall, but TOTALLY worth it for the last part. Todd's the man. :lol
 
blindrocket said:
Posted?

‘BioShock,’ ‘Fallout 3′ Creators Discuss ‘Killzone 2′ Review Reaction [video]

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009...ors-discuss-killzone-2-review-reaction-video/


EDIT: :lol Beat while I was making it. :D
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kind of an interesting general commentary from a developer's perspective.

I certainly agree that games like FPS will always be more highly scrutinized because we've done it all before. And that innovating just to do it misses the point. Innovation is only good when it is a clear change for the better.
 
I think the review backlash is just because we had a flood of these perfect '10' score games come along. Now we have Killzone 2 and uh-oh, can't get a perfect score.
If "those other" FPS games released within the past year or two were put under the same scrutiny, all would be well.
 
Cat in the Hat said:
Kevin Levine on Killzone 2

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009...ors-discuss-killzone-2-review-reaction-video/
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I personally like the line about newness for newness sake. As an artist thats an idea that was drilled into our heads time and time again during college. Doing shit just to do it and not knowing wtf youre doing it for.

I think fps games (and even sports games) are so easy to completely screw up when developers try too much that is 'new'. Lately, theyve all done it very subtly here and there (Like farcry with the open worldness and now Killzone with the cover system) but they still remained true to whats been done before because there isnt necessarily anything WRONG with whats been done before and whats more whats been done before hasnt exactly been perfected. So why move on to the next step when we still havent perfected the one we're on?

For instance, I dont think ANY developer has nailed the whole "letting you control your character during cutscenes" mechanic. I can shoot my comrades in the face in most of these games and they think nothing of it. I can hit them in the face with crowbars and theyll keep talking as if Im doing nothing to them. Takes me right out of the game because I dont fel part of that world. And no one has nailed the whole "silent protagonist" thing either. Deadspace (I know its not fps), Half life, Bioshock all attempted this and it failed just about every time in my eyes. Why am I mute? WHY I ask you?
 
Dreams-Visions said:
and yet at the same time, you're never shocked when a victim of great abuse seeks out and kills the one who oppressed them.
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The fools who aligned their self identity to a heartless Coroporation suspected of industrial sabotage and murder are those to be held equally responsible for the marginalization that the Helghast Corporation settlers suffered, that ultimately lead to the Exodus.

Tell me what is the real distinguishing factor is between the originally intended settlers of Alpha Centauri, those whom the Helghan Corporation are suspected of having murdered for personal gain, and those rounded up by the Helghan Administration actually is?

To the Helghan Administration is was this: What ships they were on.

Really, the post ESI War Helghast Corporation Settlers might have taken some of the teachings of Gandhi to heart before they, what's the term? Cut off their nose to spite their face?

I think there's a lot to be learned in this exchange:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWVxewtm61Q&fmt=18

The idea of a Helghast controlled humanity is frightening. They embody everything that their propaganda depicts the UCN/ISA as being (and that the UCN has been, in its worst days), only much much worse.

So ride gleefully cheering on the master architect of what would be the greatest act of inhumanity and genocide in history, maybe blood will fill that dark void where your soul should be.








:lol
 
dfyb said:
who started this myth that KZ2 doesn't do anything new or fresh?
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Every reviewer that reviewed it. Everything Killzone does thats "new" is subtle. Its not in your face enough so its understandable why most reviewers would bring that up.
 
Man, I think I'm gonna have to get a PS3 to play this game.

General PS3 question - Can you use a HDMI cable for the video and a regular composite cable for the audio at the same time? My LCD doesn't have a way of outputting the HDMI audio.
 
Didn't the first Killzone create sprinting in FPSs? and I bet you the next Rainbow Six game is gonna start using cover in actual first person, like KZ2.
 
Mojo said:
Man, I think I'm gonna have to get a PS3 to play this game.

General PS3 question - Can you use a HDMI cable for the video and a regular composite cable for the audio at the same time? My LCD doesn't have a way of outputting the HDMI audio.
Click to expand...

Yes.
 
.GqueB. said:
For instance, I dont think ANY developer has nailed the whole "letting you control your character during cutscenes" mechanic. I can shoot my comrades in the face in most of these games and they think nothing of it. I can hit them in the face with crowbars and theyll keep talking as if Im doing nothing to them. Takes me right out of the game because I dont fel part of that world. And no one has nailed the whole "silent protagonist" thing either. Deadspace (I know its not fps), Half life, Bioshock all attempted this and it failed just about every time in my eyes. Why am I mute? WHY I ask you?
Click to expand...

You're mute because the Western gamer seeks to project himself onto the blank canvas of the protagonist. Every line the protagonist speaks that matches that desire, increases the immersion - but every line that clashes with the players expectations reduces it, jarring the player.

This is in sharp contrast to the Japanese gamer, who wants to play someone else, rather than a version of himself. Hence the strong characters in Resident Evil, Final Fantasy et al.
 
.GqueB. said:
Every reviewer that reviewed it. Everything Killzone does thats "new" is subtle. Its not in your face enough so its understandable why most reviewers would bring that up.
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subtle innovation should not be celebrated as innovation? when was this rule introduced?
 
dfyb said:
who started this myth that KZ2 doesn't do anything new or fresh?
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I thought TTP really nailed it in his review on the first page (I assume thats a review? heh). Basically that KZ2 approaches the genre from the inside out as opposed to the outside in. Call it innovation if you want, but any critic inferring the game doesn't have a distinct identity simply hasn't sat down and played the damn thing.
 
I actually would have liked the reviewers that proclaimed that "KZ2 does nothing new" and that it's somewhat a bad thing would have given a counter example. ie a recent FPS that "does something new".

Of course, they didn't :)
 
Mojo said:
Man, I think I'm gonna have to get a PS3 to play this game.

General PS3 question - Can you use a HDMI cable for the video and a regular composite cable for the audio at the same time? My LCD doesn't have a way of outputting the HDMI audio.
Click to expand...

Yep you can do this. I did this for about a year with my PS3 till I got my home theater system.
 
dfyb said:
subtle innovation should not be celebrated as innovation? when was this rule introduced?
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I didnt say it shouldnt be, Im just saying thats how it is.

Everytime "innovation" is bought up its always something drastic. Its never subtle things like adding weight to a character or fabric being flammable its "OMG I CAN GO ANYWHERE AND KILL ANYTHING" or "OH I CAN GET MARRIED AND KILL MY WIFE IF I CHOOSE". Thats how reviewers tend to be. Thats what theyre being now.

Dont shoot zeh messenger.

Iain Howe said:
You're mute because the Western gamer seeks to project himself onto the blank canvas of the protagonist. Every line the protagonist speaks that matches that desire, increases the immersion - but every line that clashes with the players expectations reduces it, jarring the player.

This is in sharp contrast to the Japanese gamer, who wants to play someone else, rather than a version of himself. Hence the strong characters in Resident Evil, Final Fantasy et al.
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I wasnt asking a philosophical why, my question was purely logical. Taking into consideration the very narrative that was given to me, why am I a mute:

For example (spoilers ahead):












In Deadspace, Issac supposedly watched that video from Nicole about 17 times if my memory serves me right. Which would mean he genuinely cares about her etc etc. So in the game when Im finally reunited with her, why does he just stare at her blankly like a retard with no reaction whats so ever? Thats one example of doing it wrong because the lack of reaction makes no sense. In Bioshock, I speak the first line of the game so I know this person is perfectly capable of speaking... we never hear this persons voice again. Why?

I can only half buy your first paragraph. Like when we watch scary movies and the person running away doesnt do what we want them to do we react but that only ADDS to the immersion. Even if they do the exact opposite of what we do. We get mad at that person (fictional or not). Or in a movie like Gone baby gone when the character faces a choice and we the viewer can agree or disagree but if we disagree with the choice we arent suddenly jarred or taken out of the film. We are more immersed in it because we suddenly start to think about our choice.

But when the character makes no choice at all, or doesnt say anything? What is that? To me its nothing. THIS is why I feel developers are doing it wrong.


SWEET official thread by the way. I didnt even realize it was the official thread. Alls Ive been doing is coming here and clicking "last" on the thread that said Killzone.
 
.GqueB. said:
I didnt say it shouldnt be, Im just saying thats how it is.

Everytime "innovation" is bought up its always something drastic. Its never subtle things like adding weight to a character or fabric being flammable its "OMG I CAN GO ANYWHERE AND KILL ANYTHING" or "OH I CAN GET MARRIED AND KILL MY WIFE IF I CHOOSE". Thats how reviewers tend to be. Thats what theyre being now.

Dont shoot zeh messenger.


I wasnt asking a philosophical why, my question was purely logical. Taking into consideration the very narrative that was given to me, why am I a mute:

For example (spoilers ahead):












In Deadspace, Issac supposedly watched that video from Nicole about 17 times if my memory serves me right. Which would mean he genuinely cares about her etc etc. So in the game when Im finally reunited with her, why does he just stare at her blankly like a retard with no reaction whats so ever? Thats one example of doing it wrong because the lack of reaction makes no sense. In Bioshock, I speak the first line of the game so I know this person is perfectly capable of speaking... we never hear this persons voice again. Why?

I can only half buy your first paragraph. Like when we watch scary movies and the person running away doesnt do what we want them to do we react but that only ADDS to the immersion. Even if they do the exact opposite of what we do. We get mad at that person (fictional or not). Or in a movie like Gone baby gone when the character faces a choice and we the viewer can agree or disagree but if we disagree with the choice we arent suddenly jarred or taken out of the film. We are more immersed in it because we suddenly start to think about our choice.

But when the character makes no choice at all, or doesnt say anything? What is that? To me its nothing. THIS is why I feel developers are doing it wrong.


SWEET official thread by the way. I didnt even realize it was the official thread. Alls Ive been doing is coming here and clicking "last" on the thread that said Killzone.
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Spoiler tags are your friend

[//spoiler]

With that said
He didn't talk to her because she wasn't really there...
 
.GqueB. said:
I wasnt asking a philosophical why, my question was purely logical. Taking into consideration the very narrative that was given to me, why am I a mute:


I can only half buy your first paragraph. Like when we watch scary movies and the person running away doesnt do what we want them to do we react but that only ADDS to the immersion. Even if they do the exact opposite of what we do. We get mad at that person (fictional or not). Or in a movie like Gone baby gone when the character faces a choice and we the viewer can agree or disagree but if we disagree with the choice we arent suddenly jarred or taken out of the film. We are more immersed in it because we suddenly start to think about our choice.

But when the character makes no choice at all, or doesnt say anything? What is that? To me its nothing. THIS is why I feel developers are doing it wrong.
Click to expand...

Remember Shenmue? The part where Ryu is in the shrine potentially saying goodbye to a girl that is obviously half distracted with love/lust for him? Remember the discussion they have?

Ryu stares into space while she talks about her feelings and then asks where he can find sailors in town...

Now, if you were hankering for the next Karate fight and could care less about love lorn Japanese teenagers, then that was perfectly fine for you. Ryu was focused on his mission. He had no time for dalliance. On the other hand, perhaps you (me) were touched by this girls awkward confession of love and felt that ignoring her plight to ask her a stupid question that you'd already worked out (Duh! Sailors hang out in bars!) was less dutiful than asinine. In that case your suspension of disbelief is shattered and your investment in the character lessened.

To answer the second part of your statement, you're confusing passive for active forms of entertainment. In Halflife 2, Gordon Freeman achieves very little of his mission - I choose the directions, I make the difficult shots, I explore and discover. I do everything according to the manner of my choice and style. When people talk to Gordon, they're talking to me. If Gordon talked back, he could hardly answer for me!

Imagine how jarring KOTOR games would be if you chose Light side decisions all through the game, only to have Dark side decisions forced on you because that's how the writer saw your character developing.
 
Zen said:
The fools who aligned their self identity to a heartless Coroporation suspected of industrial sabotage and murder are those to be held equally responsible for the marginalization that the Helghast Corporation settlers suffered, that ultimately lead to the Exodus.

Tell me what is the real distinguishing factor is between the originally intended settlers of Alpha Centauri, those whom the Helghan Corporation are suspected of having murdered for personal gain, and those rounded up by the Helghan Administration actually is?

To the Helghan Administration is was this: What ships they were on.

Really, the post ESI War Helghast Corporation Settlers might have taken some of the teachings of Gandhi to heart before they, what's the term? Cut off their nose to spite their face?

I think there's a lot to be learned in this exchange:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWVxewtm61Q&fmt=18

The idea of a Helghast controlled humanity is frightening. They embody everything that their propaganda depicts the UCN/ISA as being (and that the UCN has been, in its worst days), only much much worse.

So ride gleefully cheering on the master architect of what would be the greatest act of inhumanity and genocide in history, maybe blood will fill that dark void where your soul should be.








:lol
Click to expand...
you shall die.
 
Angelus Errare said:
Spoiler tags are your friend

[//spoiler]

With that said
He didn't talk to her because she wasn't really there...
Click to expand...
Fair nuff but technically
he didnt know she wasnt 'there' until the end but in that moment he DID believe she was there.


Iain Howe said:
Remember Shenmue? The part where Ryu is in the shrine potentially saying goodbye to a girl that is obviously half distracted with love/lust for him? Remember the discussion they have?

Ryu stares into space while she talks about her feelings and then asks where he can find sailors in town...

Now, if you were hankering for the next Karate fight and could care less about love lorn Japanese teenagers, then that was perfectly fine for you. Ryu was focused on his mission. He had no time for dalliance. On the other hand, perhaps you (me) were touched by this girls awkward confession of love and felt that ignoring her plight to ask her a stupid question that you'd already worked out (Duh! Sailors hang out in bars!) was less dutiful than asinine. In that case your suspension of disbelief is shattered and your investment in the character lessened.

To answer the second part of your statement, you're confusing passive for active forms of entertainment. In Halflife 2, Gordon Freeman achieves very little of his mission - I choose the directions, I make the difficult shots, I explore and discover. I do everything according to the manner of my choice and style. When people talk to Gordon, they're talking to me. If Gordon talked back, he could hardly answer for me!

Imagine how jarring KOTOR games would be if you chose Light side decisions all through the game, only to have Dark side decisions forced on you because that's how the writer saw your character developing.
Click to expand...
Im not 100% sure you understand what it is Im saying. The differentiation between Passive and active forms of entertainment arent exactly relevant. We are discussing how the viewer/player reacts to the choices the protagonist makes and the things they choose to say in relation to the story (which in both passive and active ent. are one in the same). And what you do during combat isnt relevant either because Im discussing the reaction (or lack thereof) the protagonist has to this 'story' hes supposedly a part of.

And whats the point of making Gordon silent if I (the player cant talk back)? Yea he cant answer for me but why isnt he answering for himself? And whats the point of giving the player free will to crowbar peoples faces if nothing I do actually has any affect? This is what Im getting at.

But uhm ... yea.
 
Iain Howe said:
You're mute because the Western gamer seeks to project himself onto the blank canvas of the protagonist. Every line the protagonist speaks that matches that desire, increases the immersion - but every line that clashes with the players expectations reduces it, jarring the player.

This is in sharp contrast to the Japanese gamer, who wants to play someone else, rather than a version of himself. Hence the strong characters in Resident Evil, Final Fantasy et al.
Click to expand...

Iain your one of my favorite posters bro. Well said that actually makes a lot of sense
 
F#A#Oo said:
So you need to be ranked from 1-4 on a weekly basis? WTF? how is that even possible?
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Unpossible is nothin.
angry.gif
 
.GqueB. said:
Fair nuff but technically
he didnt know she wasnt 'there' until the end but in that moment he DID believe she was there.



Im not 100% sure you understand what it is Im saying. The differentiation between Passive and active forms of entertainment arent exactly relevant. We are discussing how the viewer/player reacts to the choices the protagonist makes and the things they choose to say in relation to the story (which in both passive and active ent. are one in the same). And what you do during combat isnt relevant either because Im discussing the reaction (or lack thereof) the protagonist has to this 'story' hes supposedly a part of.

And whats the point of making Gordon silent if I (the player cant talk back)? Yea he cant answer for me but why isnt he answering for himself? And whats the point of giving the player free will to crowbar peoples faces if nothing I do actually has any affect? This is what Im getting at.

But uhm ... yea.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about the disconnect between a protagonist you see as YOU versus a protagonist that you see as some talking head in a cutscene.

In FPS games you are literally IN the head of the protagonist and the game plays out as if you're actually him. Then cue a cutscene and suddenly he's in third person and acting in a way that you don't recognise as belonging to him.

So, yeah, active versus passive entertainment is sort of THE point here. The protagonist can't be made to act or speak in a manner that is consistent with the way that YOU the player, play him in the game sections. Even in a game like KZ2 there's a big difference between the play styles for various people - cold blooded assassin, passionate beserker. Do you use minimum force and never shoot the wounded? Or do you shred people with hails of fire, even when they're down? Do you finish your downed opponents with a last headshot and delight in your bodycount?

Imagine how a cutscene painting you as a humanitarian or a cold killer could jar - the character playing out a role that totally contradicts how YOU see them.

So, obviously, you minimise the lines the protagonist says, for that reason.
 
...so unless you're in the upper echelon of Killzone players online, you can't get a platinum?

Bah. That award should be a platinum in and of itself.
 
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