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KILLZONE 2 - The |OT|

Dirtbag

Member
TTP said:
Not at all. Destructible spawn points will simply mean Tacticians wont toss them carelessly in the shit storm but rather far from the objective, in somewhat hidden places with little enemy traffic.

It will actually be very funny to see enemies coming from a given direction and attempt to locate the spawn point that "generates" them. Spawn points will also act as "secondary objectives" as well, further reducing chaos on primary ones. Someone will look out for it. Someone else will defend it.

Also do not forget spawn points are TWO, and you also have squad leaders acting as spawn points.

Well whatever happens, the one thing we can agree with, is that something needs to happen.
I think the Tactician is what makes the game modes more dynamic and a big part of Killzone's intrigue, but they are completely game breaking in their current form.

I'm pretty dialed in with the ISA rifle now, and fully agree that the helghan rifle needs to see a slight damage bump. It's becoming more and more clear that it is totally second fiddle to the ISA rifle.
 
Fersis said:
Wollan is banned for another month i think.
He will be back dont worry.
Thanks, that was kind of a hard penalty.

Certainly for him missing the launch discussions, he was quite serious about Killzone 2. No kidding.
 
TTP said:
Not at all. Destructible spawn points will simply mean Tacticians wont toss them carelessly in the shit storm but rather far from the objective, in somewhat hidden places with little enemy traffic.

It will actually be very funny to see enemies coming from a given direction and attempt to locate the spawn point that "generates" them. Spawn points will also act as "secondary objectives" as well, further reducing chaos on primary ones. Someone will look out for it. Someone else will defend it.

Also do not forget spawn points are TWO, and you also have squad leaders acting as spawn points.

I posted a previous suggestion for a tactician tweak (below) , but after listening to the killzone dev interview on k____u, apparently the way people are abusing spawn beacons fits with how the developers wanted it to work ideally. So I don't think they'll fix it anytime soon.

I have a suggestion for a potential tactician fix. Instead throwing a spawn beacon, have it be an activate-able ability in which the tactician himself becomes a spawn point like how you can spawn on your squad leader, but for the whole faction. While it's active though, he's marked (have him glow or give him a special marker on the map) such that the other faction has a general idea where the tactician is. Thus, the opposing team can regain position for the time being in defensible points by taking out the enemy tactician. It would also prevent the suicidal beacon placement smack dab in the middle of the objective. The same limits would apply so there can only be 2 tacticians with an active beacon.
 

Dirtbag

Member
Gully that's a neat suggestion, but what you are describing is almost like an entirely different class given the way it will function and it will create it's own new set of imbalances. I think it's smarter to just build on what they have now.

I think building a spawn beacon with a startup time similar to a placing a turret (vs. tossing the grenade) would probably work wonders in spawn abuse. I also think if the invunerablility upon spawning was removed, you would see much more intelligent placement of them. I think when someone spawns they should be fair game the instant the enter the arena, or they shouldn't be allowed to shoot until the invulnerablilty wears off, basically they can sprint for their lives if they get a bum deal upon spawning.
 

raYne

Member
Gully State said:
I posted a previous suggestion for a tactician tweak (below) , but after listening to the killzone dev interview on k____u, apparently the way people are abusing spawn beacons fits with how the developers wanted it to work ideally. So I don't think they'll fix it anytime soon.
smh

In which case, they need to hurry up and fix things like:
Dirtbag said:
I also think if the invunerablility upon spawning was removed, you would see much more intelligent placement of them.
This. Which would go a long way in fixing some of the issues that result from spawn point clusterfuckery.

Take that away and limit the spawn placement area and the game would be a whole lot better for it.
 
icechai said:
what's up with East Coast Gaffers? I usually only see 2 or so online these days when I play. I end up playing a lot more with GAFw (playing at around 11p EST).



I play nearly every night. I am in GAF East 1 and nobody is never on anymore. I know that Full Recovery has to be burned out a bit, he has the platinum, and now he plays COD WAW all the time now.



I knew that GAF East may not have been very serious about clan matches right now when I asked like 3 times in the KILLZONE CLan thread if we, GAF East 1, were ever going to play any competitive CLan Matches. They never responded 1 time, nobody did.



I may be up for a change. I live in Indianapolis so maybe I could fit into any of the other clans. GAF West anyone? Heck, most of the people on my Friends list are in GAF West anyways.



Oh well, I like the guys in GAF East 1. They are really cool, they added me as one of the first clans members, and we played together religously for the first 10 days the game was out. Now, GAF East is a ghost town.
 
Dirtbag said:
Gully that's a neat suggestion, but what you are describing is almost like an entirely different class given the way it will function and it will create it's own new set of imbalances. I think it's smarter to just build on what they have now.

I think building a spawn beacon with a startup time similar to a placing a turret (vs. tossing the grenade) would probably work wonders in spawn abuse. I also think if the invunerablility upon spawning was removed, you would see much more intelligent placement of them.

What kind of imbalances would it bring? I figure something like this would be easy to impliment b/c the mechanics are already in place (spawning on a squad leader). I suppose it changes the way tactician has to be played as he is now a primary target and also puts an emphasis on the team protecting him.
 

Dirtbag

Member
Gully State said:
What kind of imbalances would it bring? I figure something like this would be easy to impliment b/c the mechanics are already in place (spawning on a squad leader). I suppose it changes the way tactician has to be played as he is not a primary target and also puts an emphasis on the team protecting him.

Imagine a moving spawn point that everyone can use.... think about that for a second.
Imagine what that would do to search and retrieve or assassination! Would totally change the entire dynamic of both of those game modes. Imagine blood gratch with a mobile spawn point.... wow

I think you make a mistake that having 3 people spawn on leader would play the same as having 15 people spawn on tactician. I also think you picture a really aggressive tactician, where as I picture more of a ninja tac, that reacts to the surroundings constantly moving his position to distribute the pain. A smart tact in your system could pretty much ruin the game just as easily if he stays in cover.

Or picture a team of 16 tacts in your method. One dies, the next guy activates.. the battle front stays in the same position.
 
Dirtbag said:
I'm pretty dialed in with the ISA rifle now, and fully agree that the helghan rifle needs to see a slight damage bump. It's becoming more and more clear that it is totally second fiddle to the ISA rifle.
Oh my god yes. At extremely close range the StA-52 kills slightly faster due to higher rate of fire, but at medium range its bullet spread is too large to make up for it, and at long range--where the M82 is still superb--it's almost useless. There's not enough personality to it: not a "poor man's sniper rifle" like the M82, not a "firehose of bullets" like the SMG. Its split-the-difference position is fine in SP, where you survive for very long periods and thus encounter all sorts of different firefights. In MP, where you die much more often (or at least I do!), you're better off with a specialized weapon. And it's not like the M82 is a total slouch in face-to-face confrontations. (The other SP advantage, more available ammo, is also superfluous in MP.)

Fersis said:
Back on my days (when i was young) we played just for fun, no one cared about:
Infinite spawns,dynamic lighting,AI,Net Code,shaders,FPS and stuff... those were my days
Hey, I had plenty of fun investigating this! I only started checking because I'm curious, and I've beaten the campaign several times already. It's not meant to indicate that just because there are infinite spawns, the game is bad. In fact, I think they improve the game, being used judiciously in only parts of two levels (the actual bridge attack in Salamun Bridge, and outside Visari Palace) to provide a greater "total war" feeling. These serve as excellent inflection points in the atmosphere and pacing flow, adding to the emotional impact.
 
^ I found the infinite spawn info interesting. Had I known that, I wouldn't have had so much trouble with the tank battle in Tharsis Refinery. I would have just hung back and killed everyone without rushing into the rocket pit of death.
 

Zen

Banned
Gully State said:
I posted a previous suggestion for a tactician tweak (below) , but after listening to the killzone dev interview on k____u, apparently the way people are abusing spawn beacons fits with how the developers wanted it to work ideally. So I don't think they'll fix it anytime soon.

They seriously want their game to be an unfun mess? Holy shit.
 

Thrakier

Member
Ugh, the next Patch will make or break this game. If they get it right, new maps, new gamemodes, new ranks, neccesary tweaks...it could be the online game forever. If not I'll go back to R2 and Wowhawk (which still is amazing and superbly balanced). :)
 

Fersis

It is illegal to Tag Fish in Tag Fishing Sanctuaries by law 38.36 of the GAF Wildlife Act
Liabe Brave said:
Oh my god yes. At extremely close range the StA-52 kills slightly faster due to higher rate of fire, but at medium range its bullet spread is too large to make up for it, and at long range--where the M82 is still superb--it's almost useless. There's not enough personality to it: not a "poor man's sniper rifle" like the M82, not a "firehose of bullets" like the SMG. Its split-the-difference position is fine in SP, where you survive for very long periods and thus encounter all sorts of different firefights. In MP, where you die much more often (or at least I do!), you're better off with a specialized weapon. And it's not like the M82 is a total slouch in face-to-face confrontations. (The other SP advantage, more available ammo, is also superfluous in MP.)


Hey, I had plenty of fun investigating this! I only started checking because I'm curious, and I've beaten the campaign several times already. It's not meant to indicate that just because there are infinite spawns, the game is bad. In fact, I think they improve the game, being used judiciously in only parts of two levels (the actual bridge attack in Salamun Bridge, and outside Visari Palace) to provide a greater "total war" feeling. These serve as excellent inflection points in the atmosphere and pacing flow, adding to the emotional impact.
I meant to say that gaming has changed a lot really quickly , im feeling old today ^_^
 

Zen

Banned
Have we heard what will be in the next patch? Honestly I'm feelling the pull to go back to MGO full time, well, I probably well, and play KZ2 from time to time, but if they can patch the game to fix the mirade of problems it has, it might be closer to 50/50.
 

DuckRacer

Member
Blu_LED said:
Does anyone know when last months NPD's come out? I wanna see how well this did.....
Tomorrow afternoon
Thrakier said:
Ugh, the next Patch will make or break this game. If they get it right, new maps, new gamemodes, new ranks, neccesary tweaks...it could be the online game forever. If not I'll go back to R2 and Wowhawk (which still is amazing and superbly balanced). :)
I kinda regret not buying Warhawk when it was on sale for $20, but then I look on eBay and I can get it for like $10. Ah well.
 
JB1981 said:
ah shit palantiri just got booted from psn!

What's this? You were on but then you signed out. I started to play the next match (Salamun) but the hit response was all fucked. I was emptying so much into people and they just wouldn't die. If people are still down then I will log back on.

I really don't know what is up with my internet connection lately, but I keep running into either individual players, or entire servers where it takes so much more than usual to take people down.
 
Dirtbag said:
Imagine a moving spawn point that everyone can use.... think about that for a second.
Imagine what that would do to search and retrieve or assassination! Would totally change the entire dynamic of both of those game modes. Imagine blood gratch with a mobile spawn point.... wow

I think you make a mistake that having 3 people spawn on leader would play the same as having 15 people spawn on tactician. I also think you picture a really aggressive tactician, where as I picture more of a ninja tac, that reacts to the surroundings constantly moving his position to distribute the pain. A smart tact in your system could pretty much ruin the game just as easily if he stays in cover.

Or picture a team of 16 tacts in your method. One dies, the next guy activates.. the battle front stays in the same position.

I was going to type up some fixes in conjunction with my idea but then realized that simply going back to fixing the spawn point ends up being easier. I too think that the next patch is going to make/break how much longer I play this game.
 

Nizz

Member
Blu_LED said:
Does anyone know when last months NPD's come out? I wanna see how well this did.....
I'm guessing tomorrow? I always stay the hell out of sales-age threads though. It's insane. Although I'll pop in at the beginning of the thread just to see some of Mama Robotnik's gifs. :D

BruceLeeRoy said:
I know some of the gods that frequent this forum will think this is pretty sad but I just ranked #28555. Yay! I was 52000
Don't worry. I'm hovering around that rank also. I may be slightly ahead, but not by much. Thing is, I've been playing Bodycount with randoms almost exclusively. I've been shying away from the bigger GAF games because sometimes there's just too much chaos! I also don't have a headset yet (I'm broke) and I know that's key for squads.

On another note, I've been playing as a Sabateur and I'm loving it. :D I'm also trying to get the 5x zoom for the Sniper rifle. I found out you need 10 kills in a match with it 8 times I believe in order to get that ability. I've done that once so far, 7 more to go. Spot & Mark really helps also ;)
 

JudgeN

Member
Thrakier said:
Ugh, the next Patch will make or break this game. If they get it right, new maps, new gamemodes, new ranks, neccesary tweaks...it could be the online game forever. If not I'll go back to R2 and Wowhawk (which still is amazing and superbly balanced). :)

Your right this game was total shit out of the box, worst online game ever. God what the hell is wrong with some of you people.
 

Thrakier

Member
DuckRacer said:
Tomorrow afternoon

I kinda regret not buying Warhawk when it was on sale for $20, but then I look on eBay and I can get it for like $10. Ah well.

Yeah, worth the money, but expect to be frustrated in the beginning... ;) Use some youtube tutorials. Also, somehow I want to get back to MGO after the new expansion...I mean, it has it's flaws but it has such a unique feeling, they really nailed the MGS feeling in that game I think.
 

Thrakier

Member
JudgeN said:
Your right this game was total shit out of the box, worst online game ever. God what the hell is wrong with some of you people.

No no, it's a fun game like it is at the moment. But eight maps are not enough and they need to force better teamplay. I have to check some clan matches to see if those feel a lot different. :)
 

DuckRacer

Member
Thrakier said:
Yeah, worth the money, but expect to be frustrated in the beginning... ;) Use some youtube tutorials. Also, somehow I want to get back to MGO after the new expansion...I mean, it has it's flaws but it has such a unique feeling, they really nailed the MGS feeling in that game I think.
I've had Warhawk before, and actually purchased the $60 bundle on release day. Then I sold it for a little over $40 because of CoD4 making it redundant at the time. The reason I decided against a repurchase was basically "hey, instead of getting something I've already played for $20 I can get Pixeljunk Monsters and another game." Oh, and "hey, I got Killzone 2 and I'm playing it a lot, why would I buy something I won't play?" Etc.
 

icechai

Member
JudgeN said:
Your right this game was total shit out of the box, worst online game ever. God what the hell is wrong with some of you people.

wow what are you expecting out of online? It has its issues but it still hooked me way more than any other multiplayer since Wowhawk (more than CoD4 by far)
 
SuperSonic1305 said:
Lots of K2 ads during Lost tonight.

Saw them during BSG last Friday too. At least they are getting to the tight audience.



Speaking of which I think that commercial interactive thingy will be at GDC then on PSN that Friday.
 

Grayman

Member
Prezhulio said:
finally close to the scout! how long did it take most people to get this far, i feel like my play time is embarrassing long...
20-21 hours for me. I am not looking forward to getting all the badges though...
 

Ploid 3.0

Member
j-wood said:
Do you get points when people use your spawn?

Ribbons if you get 5 people to use the spawn. After you unlock air support, you get nothing. Not even a thank you. Deal with it soldier! You don't get anything for revivin.. er, shooti, hmm. Well put it this way, if your air bot kills someone you'll get a point (good luck with that).
 

Ploid 3.0

Member
j-wood said:
You do get a point for reviving someone

Yea, I was trying to portray that I was catching myself as I typed it out.

If tacticians want points, they have to get blood on their hands all the way, like a assault with no rocket launchers, or saboteur without secondary a badge. Don't play it for points, or to get in that 1% well unless you figure that only with your tactician help your team will win. That's double the points.
 

VNZ

Member
After some extensive playing the last week, I started to jot down some of my comments in a text file, which today began to take form in a more "official" document (as in something I may send to Guerilla and see if they have anything to say about it).

Anyway, it's quite long but I may just as well post it here to see which, if any, of my suggestions are the consensus here and which are just bad ideas...


Here's an easier-to-the-eye PDF document


Suggested Improvements for Killzone 2: Warzone
First, I’d like to thank Guerilla Games for a brillant game. I absolutely love the single player campaign, and the multiplayer is quite amazing when you find a good game. Unfortunately, a couple of problems with the balancing and the lobby system makes those good games very hard to find, and the not-so-good games can get quite ugly indeed.

That is a damn shame. Here are my suggestions on how to make Killzone 2 the quintessential tactical multiplayer shooter.

Battle Units
The issue: It's near impossible to engage in casual play with your friends.

Solution: Some sort of party system is needed! To keep the militaristic tone of the Killzone universe I’m using the term Battle Unit instead of party. This isn’t a party, it’s war! The crucial feature here is to be able to establish a list of 2-16 friends from the main Warzone menu. This is done via a Battle Unit sub menu with the options to create a new unit or join a friend. If the player creates a new unit he or she is appointed the leader and is in control over finding and creating games. While in a unit, a new tab called “Battle Unit” will be available in all screens from which actions and settings related to the unit is accessed. Each player can invite more friends to the unit, and the leader can kick any player as well as passing the leadership to someone else. The leader can also access a “preferred faction” setting which is used during faction balancing. At all times during menu screens, and if possible also during map loading, you can communicate through an open voice chat.

When searching for games, only those with enough open slots for the entire unit to fit will show up.

When entering a game, a couple of issues arise. The most obvious one being that if the game is currently in progress there will possibly not be enough slots on the same faction for the whole unit, or if auto factioning is enabled the whole unit cannot enter without ruining the balance. In those cases the unit will have to split up for the duration of that game. Evenly distributed squads for unit members will be created automatically (for example, if six players are on the same faction there will be two squads with three players in each). All unit members in the same faction have an open voice chat channel. For obvious reasons chatting between factions is not enabled.

At the end of the game, the open channel works as usual. A mute function here would be a nice touch, though!

At the start of a new game getting all unit members on the same faction is prioritized. If there’s roughly the double amount of players or more in the game this won’t be a problem; the whole unit is automatically put in the preferred faction and squads are created automatically. If the unit constitutes the majority of the players it will have to split up, according to the same rules as when entering an active game. If enough additional players drop in during the pre-game phase the unit will automatically be united again, and a couple of solo players will be shuffled to the other side.

The faction selection step is never displayed. The advantage is that faction slots quickly get allotted for the whole unit, which in turn will make the auto factioning for solo players more even.

If the leader quits the game he or she gets the choice of taking the whole unit with him, or appointing a new leader and quit by himself. If any other unit member quits the game he or she also leaves the unit.

Game Info & Filtering
The issue: Right now you constantly find yourself in games with the most crazy settings, because there’s no way of telling what you’re getting into until you’ve joined the game and loaded up the map.

Solution: Offer more search options, but more crucially you need to display match info in the search results screen. This can be accomplished by splitting the view in two parts, with the game list to the left and a window with the essential match info to the right. This info includes current map and which maps are in rotation, enabled game modes (with timers) and enabled classes.

Spawning
The issue: The objective based, supposedly tactical, game modes often turn into a chaotic massacre of random close quarters combat as both teams throw one or two spawn grenades right in the objective area.

Solution: I have two suggestions that I believe will make the tactical modes much more satisfying. The first is to disable spawn points near the objective areas, either by disabling the item altogether when in the area (in the same manner as air drones are disabled indoors) or by making the grenade a “dud” if thrown inside the area. The latter would create a risk/reward mechanic, as a thrown dud would still start a counter until another grenade can be thrown.

Preferrably, though, the spawn points would work more akin to the engineers’ turret. To create a spawn point the tactician needs to stay still for approximately 5 seconds holding the left button. The direction it faces should be obvious by looking at the object, and colored smoke, however maybe not quite as heavy, should be emitted from it just like the current spawn grenades. Once created it is destructable, but only by standing near it (from any direction) and holding the circle button for 5 seconds to place a charge. This mechanic will reward the tactician for chosing a concealed area for the spawn points; both by not getting him killed while building it and by giving the opposing team a harder time to track it down and destroy it.

The second improvement is to increase the penalty of getting killed by increasing the respawn timer for each death. For example, the first death gives you the usual 8 seconds, the second time you have to wait 16 seconds, then 24 seconds and so on. At the end of each mode the respawn time is reset. A welcome side effect of limited spawning is that medics become much more important.

Assault Class
The issue: The combination of heavy armor and the speed and health boost is way to powerful. Coupled with a rocket launcher has proven to bring out the ugliest and most over powered playing style I’ve seen in a long time. The fact that assault is the class most oftenly disabled should prove the point that something is wrong.

Solution: A much decreased default speed would create some much needed risk for the assault class. Also, that combination feels quite natural for a heavy armor soldier. The boosting speed could still be higher than the default soldier, but not as exaggerated as now (let’s face it, a running assault with boost looks plain silly from a visual standpoint). A second interesting tweak is turning the boost pill into a double edged sword by letting it fill up your health when standing/walking, but draining health (down to a certain threshold at, say, 20%) while running.

Also, the rocket launcher is problematic. The idea of having such an ammo limited main weapon strikes me as odd, and seems to encourage rapid respawning. Forcing the player to use rocket launchers in iron sight mode will hold back the most obvious “fire and forget” tactics. Ideally though, the rocket launcher should replace the side-arm or grenades for the assault class, still “iron sight only” and with a time consuming weapon change animation.

Controls & Aiming
The issue: The aim controls suffer from a large dead zone followed by a very steep response curve, making fine aim adjustments very hard. By response curve I mean the table or equation that defines how the signal from the analogue stick (ranging from 0 to +/- 512 on a PS3 controller IIRC) are translated into actual movements in the game.

Solution: While I totally agree with the design choice to strive for heavy and visceral combat, I don’t think the control implementation successfully reach that goal right now. The problem lies not in the slow turning and inertial movement (actually turning speed is very high if you crank up the sensitivity), but in the very fine aim adjustments.

Let’s face it: as of now Call of Duty 4 is the gold standard in attaining precision control with a joypad. In part that’s due to the higher framerate and the subsequently lower latency of that game, but in large part I believe the response curve and deadzone in Killzone 2 are not optimal. Minimizing the dead zone to make room for a range of finer adjustments seems like the obvious solution to me, and I would love to hear an official word from Guerilla why the analogue controls are designed the way they are now.


General Improvements & Tweaks
Some more ideas and tweaks that will improve the Warzone experience:

Mode Customizations
A no respawning option for all modes except Body Count. The ultimate tactical experience! This is a much sought after option that will allow for slower games with lots of tension. When you die, you stay dead. Until the next round. (See, I’m so pumped for such a mode that I’m churning out PR-speak without even trying!)

Quick Clan Game
The extensive clan system with tournaments, valor points and charts are all cool ideas, so it’s a shame that it’s somewhat of a hassle to engage in clan games. An option for clan members to easily meet up, using the Battle Unit system, and then quickly find or create clan challenges would be very useful.

Better Match Presets
Since many games are created using the presets, some small tweaks to them can lead to more enjoyable games for the majority of players that don’t do any tweaking themselves. The basic full-on Warzone should come in 2-3 sizes. For example 32 and 16 players varieties with only the suitable maps included in the rotation. If you’ve ended up in a 32 player Search & Destroy on the Tharsis Depot map you know what I’m talking about!

Field of View
Last but certainly not least! The FOV right now is too limited to be able to properly assess your surroundings (especially indoors), making close quarters combat a game of chance as well as giving a lot of people motion sickness. A FOV approaching the wide setting used in boost mode seems more natural, while narrowing it down to the current setting in zoom/iron sight mode.
 

Dementia

Member
BruceLeeRoy said:
I know some of the gods that frequent this forum will think this is pretty sad but I just ranked #28555. Yay! I was 52000
Yeah man, I'm right around there too at rank #23345.
Except I haven't been able to play for over ten days. =(
 
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