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KILLZONE 2 - The |OT|

nataku

Member
God damn friendly AI.

Finally got past the RPG guys... kinda. Had a cutscene of an ISA lander thing crashing into the building and then I get a huge wave of more helghast. Only, for some reason, Rico decides it'd be a great time to just jump down off the balcony, right in the middle of this massive wave of helghast, and get his dumb ass killed. Of course that leaves me no way to revive him without dying myself.

The friendly AI in this game is so infuriating. I'm starting to reach the point of just putting single player on hold until I feel like playing through the game again on something other then Veteran.
 
GodofWine said:
Agreed on both points. Once you have all classes available, people seem to mix them up. As you are leveling up, its like everyone just picks the highest available ranking class..so you go from all soldiers, to all engineers, to all assault, to all sabs, and then once you hit 3 stars things sorta settle in....thankfully.

and yes, 32 players is nuts, but its great for getting massive points (blood gratch defend, Im looking at you)

Yeah the 32 player matches are just good for getting bumping your score and K/D ratios.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
nataku said:
God damn friendly AI.

Finally got past the RPG guys... kinda. Had a cutscene of an ISA lander thing crashing into the building and then I get a huge wave of more helghast. Only, for some reason, Rico decides it'd be a great time to just jump down off the balcony, right in the middle of this massive wave of helghast, and get his dumb ass killed. Of course that leaves me no way to revive him without dying myself.

The friendly AI in this game is so infuriating. I'm starting to reach the point of just putting single player on hold until I feel like playing through the game again on something other then Veteran.

Veteran lol?
After the intruder crashes through the window
it should be pretty easy, why even worry about Rico? Just take care of business, secure dat shit yo.
Indifferent2.gif
 
Kittonwy said:
Veteran lol?
After the intruder crashes through the window
it should be pretty easy, why even worry about Rico? Just take care of business, secure dat shit yo.
Indifferent2.gif

Yes like Kitton said Secure Dat Shit.
 
Full Recovery said:
Newflash: Proper matches are either clusterfucks or boring as hell. Even with gaffers.

I would say 80% of the time I finished in first place. and 100% of the time I finished in the top 3.

I've put over 80 hours into the game and I was ranked in the top 60 world wide. (mind you I haven't played it in the past 2 weeks). I've played default matches, custom timed matches, matches with classes taken out, small matches (8vs8, 10vs10, 12vs12) etc. It just doesn't work for me.

In call of duty I can do 15 kill streaks on a daily basis. In killzone 2 that's impossible unless you have an amazing team, hide and snipe and don't work towards the objectives.

Die, respawn, die, respawn gets to me very quickly. The same thing put me off from Resistance.

It's just not my cup of tea.

I'm no where near as good as you but after going full tilt for the first few weeks the game was out I haven't played it in a while. For some reason KZ2 just didn't grab and pull me in like CoD4, I will be sending it back to Gamefly at the end of the week =/
 

YoungHav

Banned
glaurung said:
but when I realized just how slowly the character rank development proceeds, I am reluctant to go back.

Also, unlocking the new classes takes forever and I don't think I will be very thrilled once that happens.
You've got to be kidding me! It's not grinding at all. Only 25-30hrs, keep at it. When you're done you'll wish there were more things to unlock.
 

andycapps

Member
ChryZ said:
You guys should definitely do clan matches. It's almost like RFoM, going to war with a party.

I'm so down with this if we can get several matches scheduled at a time. Do you guys usually do smaller matches of 4 vs. 4 or bigger ones like 8 vs. 8? I wouldn't want to do anything bigger than 16 players, personally.
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
andycapps said:
I'm so down with this if we can get several matches scheduled at a time. Do you guys usually do smaller matches of 4 vs. 4 or bigger ones like 8 vs. 8? I wouldn't want to do anything bigger than 16 players, personally.

I played some 20-22 matches and they also work extremely well. They let you have enough people to divide into 2 squads per side and then a few support outside units like snipers and some medics.
 

ChryZ

Member
andycapps said:
I'm so down with this if we can get several matches scheduled at a time. Do you guys usually do smaller matches of 4 vs. 4 or bigger ones like 8 vs. 8? I wouldn't want to do anything bigger than 16 players, personally.
AFAIK 10vs10 was the biggest one or was it 8vs8 max? Raist? There were plenty of 3vs3, 4vs4 and 5vs5. Scheduling works really great via the clan tab. You get even in-game (MP) messages about events starting/ending, results, etc.
 
nataku said:
God damn friendly AI.

Finally got past the RPG guys... kinda. Had a cutscene of an ISA lander thing crashing into the building and then I get a huge wave of more helghast. Only, for some reason, Rico decides it'd be a great time to just jump down off the balcony, right in the middle of this massive wave of helghast, and get his dumb ass killed. Of course that leaves me no way to revive him without dying myself.

The friendly AI in this game is so infuriating. I'm starting to reach the point of just putting single player on hold until I feel like playing through the game again on something other then Veteran.

Relax. The worst part is over. You've basically beaten the game.

No story or real gameplay spoilers:

Ignore Rico, take the knife, go to the balcony (which you can now do on the right side), and kill everyone there and below. Checkpoint. After that is the final fight, which, like all fights of this nature, is easy once you know the patterns.
 

Rolf NB

Member
nataku said:
God damn friendly AI.

Finally got past the RPG guys... kinda. Had a cutscene of an ISA lander thing crashing into the building and then I get a huge wave of more helghast. Only, for some reason, Rico decides it'd be a great time to just jump down off the balcony, right in the middle of this massive wave of helghast, and get his dumb ass killed. Of course that leaves me no way to revive him without dying myself.

The friendly AI in this game is so infuriating. I'm starting to reach the point of just putting single player on hold until I feel like playing through the game again on something other then Veteran.
Try elite. As weird as it may sound, on my elite playthrough so far, every single section that involves friendly AI has been consistently easier than it was on veteran. Eg in the convoy escort section in the first level, Garza actually manned the mounted turret and cleared all but one of the Helghast himself. In the underground section (with the stinky talk), he did the entire room himself. In the part at the end of the level, he didn't even die once. It's a sight to behold.

As for the
second-to-last checkpoint, hide behind the furniture on the left side, keep an eye on the stairs and just pop out every now and then to squeeze out a few shots at the RPG dudes. Never stay exposed for more than two seconds. They will fire a rocket right at you. If you can't get away in time, crouch to reduce splash damage. Leave Rico until you've cleared the enemies. Reviving him at that point is not worth taking the risk.
 

Zeliard

Member
bcn-ron said:
Try elite. As weird as it may sound, on my elite playthrough so far, every single section that involves friendly AI has been consistently easier than it was on veteran. Eg in the convoy escort section in the first level, Garza actually manned the mounted turret and cleared all but one of the Helghast himself. In the underground section (with the stinky talk), he did the entire room himself. In the part at the end of the level, he didn't even die once. It's a sight to behold.

I was about to post this. Friendly A.I. is noticeably better on Elite difficulty, presumably because they also get a decent buff along with the enemies.
 
Sigh... The spawn grenade spamming make utter clusterfucks a common common thing once you level up to around Engineer badge level.

I know people think that things can still be balanced through smart coordinated play...
But the majority of the people playing end up doing the same thing over and over which is a cluster of rockets, grenades, and bodies everywhere at whatever doorway is a proper chokepoint.

People spend 10 minutes at a meaningless doorway throwing grenades and reviving people to farm a badge.

I am afraid the multiplayer community will shrink A LOT if "joe gamer" ends up in a clusterbomb of crap every time he plays (through no fault of his own).
 

raYne

Member
UntoldDreams said:
Sigh... The spawn grenade spamming make utter clusterfucks a common common thing once you level up to around Engineer badge level.

I know people think that things can still be balanced through smart coordinated play...
But the majority of the people playing end up doing the same thing over and over which is a cluster of rockets, grenades, and bodies everywhere at whatever doorway is a proper chokepoint.

People spend 10 minutes at a meaningless doorway throwing grenades and reviving people to farm a badge.

I am afraid the multiplayer community will shrink A LOT if "joe gamer" ends up in a clusterbomb of crap every time he plays (through no fault of his own).
They'll just have to get used to it. I wouldn't expect a fix anytime soon, if ever, considering:
Gully State said:
I posted a previous suggestion for a tactician tweak (below) , but after listening to the killzone dev interview on k____u, apparently the way people are abusing spawn beacons fits with how the developers wanted it to work ideally. So I don't think they'll fix it anytime soon.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15156476&postcount=19205
 

GodofWine

Member
UntoldDreams said:
People spend 10 minutes at a meaningless doorway throwing grenades and reviving people to farm a badge.

I am afraid the multiplayer community will shrink A LOT if "joe gamer" ends up in a clusterbomb of crap every time he plays (through no fault of his own).

I agree, and thought the same (still do to a point), but I do think that once the top rank is reached and people stop trying to get badges / ribbons as much, that this is beginning to fade....however so is the amount of people playing online...its like if people could just stick with it they would totally dig it.

Makes me wonder if having all classes unlocked to start, and only awarding people with secondary abilities / weapons would have been better. (dare I say, kinda like COD, not exactly though).
 
raYne said:
They'll just have to get used to it. I wouldn't expect a fix anytime soon, if ever, considering:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15156476&postcount=19205

If the community shrinks they will be more open to tweaking I hope and I am pretty sure most people aren't going to put up with their HQ being overrun so easily and having an indestructible spawn grenade sitting in there spawning (temporary) invincible enemies.
Edit: Okay C4 can blow it up I know but guys are pouring in with rockets and grenades. Its a mess.

I know its probably difficult to discern whether its just internet bitching or a genuine good suggestion to tweak gameplay... But there is one absolute metric and that is if the online community dwindles due to people not wanting to play.
 

andycapps

Member
AndyD said:
I played some 20-22 matches and they also work extremely well. They let you have enough people to divide into 2 squads per side and then a few support outside units like snipers and some medics.

I was just thinking in terms to where there would be an even 4 people in each squad, but yeah, if you guys have done it before and it worked that's cool.
 

Inanna

Not pure anymore!
Hmm, haven;t encountered grenade spamming too much yet (people mostly do them during S&D matches) also assault class weapons (rocket launchers/grenade launcher) are weak as hell. You only die from rockets and grenades if you stay stationary for too long.

Ah, and I hate spawn campers, they are EVERYWHERE, especially base campers. Other than that, I'm loving it. MP hasn't got "boring" for me yet. :D
 

raYne

Member
UntoldDreams said:
If the community shrinks they will be more open to tweaking I hope and I am pretty sure most people aren't going to put up with their HQ being overrun so easily and having an indestructible spawn grenade sitting in there spawning (temporary) invincible enemies.
Edit: Okay C4 can blow it up I know but guys are pouring in with rockets and grenades. Its a mess.

I know its probably difficult to discern whether its just internet bitching or a genuine good suggestion to tweak gameplay... But there is one absolute metric and that is if the online community dwindles due to people not wanting to play.
Twa?

ilanna said:
Hmm, haven;t encountered grenade spamming too much yet (people mostly do them during S&D matches) also assault class weapons (rocket launchers/grenade launcher) are weak as hell. You only die from rockets and grenades if you stay stationary for too long.

Ah, and I hate spawn campers, they are EVERYWHERE, especially base campers. Other than that, I'm loving it. MP hasn't got "boring" for me yet. :D
That'd be beacause S&D rounds are the only time they turn into a clusterfuck fest. ;)

RE: the bolded. Uh, splash damage. You know, the kind of thing that happens with Assauts spawn, fire rockets and launch a million grenades into the room you're supposed to be protecting.

You're acting like they have to hit you directly...
 

Kuroyume

Banned
Please add me to the NA clan.

PSN name: bababoooie

Do you need to have a registered account at KZ.com or will the invite also pop up in the game?
 

Rolf NB

Member
The Helghast base on Radec Academy is particularly prone to enemy lockdown (no clear line of fire out of the spawning room, attackers have higher ground), but it still takes a good ISA team to pull it off. The thing to remember for the Helghast side is that you don't break out of it by repeatedly spawning in your base and splashing against the lockdown. You break out of it by placing better spawn points yourself. Then again, a spawn point at the top of the stairs can just as easily wreak havok to the ISA side.

Of course Radec Academy is another one of those maps that are far too small for 16vs16 players.
 

raYne

Member
UntoldDreams said:
Doesn't it? I read it here somewhere since I don't have C4 yet.
Nah, you're mistaken. You can't actually stop a spawn point when it's activated. You just have to wait it out.

The "C4 the spawn" reasoning is that when the enemy places a spawn point, you're supposed to C4 the area so you can kill anyone that spawns there. Good in theory, not so much in practice. As what usually happens is, it blows and they take no damage at all because of the invincibility time when they spawn. Or it blows when no one's around because a million explosives are going off in the room and they'll set off the C4 as a result.
 

Thrakier

Member
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE! I can NOT beat that part under the bridge against the flak. There are bazillion of higs rushing me, I have NO idea what to do, I died like 50 times already. Seriously, I don't know what to do there. I'm very very frustrated.
 

Inanna

Not pure anymore!
Well, grenades from grenade launcher don't go off right away, giving you plenty of time to avoid 'em, and you can dodge rockets (assuming there aren't 4+ assaults with rocket launchers/grenade launchers firing at you simultaneously!).
 

raYne

Member
ilanna said:
Well, grenades from grenade launcher don't go off right away, giving you plenty of time to avoid 'em, and you can dodge rockets (assuming there aren't 4+ assaults with rocket launchers/grenade launchers firing at you simultaneously!).
They do if they hit anyone else in the room. There's only one way to settle this..

Youtube me a vid of yourself consistently dodging bullets, rockets, thrown grenades, returning fire, protecting the objective and somehow still looking at the floor to get out of the splash range of any explosive in the room. That'll show me. :p

Thrakier said:
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE! I can NOT beat that part under the bridge against the flak. There are bazillion of higs rushing me, I have NO idea what to do, I died like 50 times already. Seriously, I don't know what to do there. I'm very very frustrated.
The AA section? Are you killing the gunner to give yourself an opening to take out the ground troops?
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
andycapps said:
I was just thinking in terms to where there would be an even 4 people in each squad, but yeah, if you guys have done it before and it worked that's cool.

Good thing about having a sniper in your squad is that they can function as spotters not shooters. They use the voice channel to watch and guide the rest of the squad into battle on some maps.

I used to do this a lot in Battlefield over ventrilo. I would hide and watch and inform, rather than shoot to kill and attract attention. You take the occasional easy headshot, but usually you just hide and spot. Its a very important and very satisfying role if you have a solid squad and not the clusterf***s this game sometimes creates.
 
Thrakier said:
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE! I can NOT beat that part under the bridge against the flak. There are bazillion of higs rushing me, I have NO idea what to do, I died like 50 times already. Seriously, I don't know what to do there. I'm very very frustrated.

Against the AA cannon?

Try to quickly sneak through on the very left side, under the metal lattice crap under the bridge (which is above you). No HG should see you. Once you reach the end of that path, there is a wall. Throw a couple of grenades from behind that wall, then whip out the knife and dash towards the AA gun. Knife anyone in the way. Checkpoint. Clear out the remaining HG who are now behind you, then man the gun.
 

Inanna

Not pure anymore!
raYne said:
They do if they hit anyone else in the room. There's only one way to settle this..

Youtube me a vid of yourself consistently dodging bullets, rockets, thrown grenades, returning fire, protecting the objective and somehow still looking at the floor to get out of the splash range of any explosive in the room. That'll show me. :p
Oh no, I meant out in the open (Pyrrhus Rise for example) during body count. I've only ever done it once or maybe twice during normal body count matches, also I can never kill anyone with rocket launchers/grenade launchers. :( That's why I said they were HORRIBLE and I don't get the whole Assault class is over-powered complaints.
 

Raist

Banned
ilanna said:
Oh no, I meant out in the open (Pyrrhus Rise for example) during body count. I've only ever done it once or maybe twice during normal body count matches, also I can never kill anyone with rocket launchers/grenade launchers. :( That's why I said they were HORRIBLE and I don't get the whole Assault class is over-powered complaints.

Assault's problem is not RL, GL. It's the huge amount of advantages over other classes, without any drawback
 

Thrakier

Member
RedRedSuit said:
Against the AA cannon?

Try to quickly sneak through on the very left side, under the metal lattice crap under the bridge (which is above you). No HG should see you. Once you reach the end of that path, there is a wall. Throw a couple of grenades from behind that wall, then whip out the knife and dash towards the AA gun. Knife anyone in the way. Checkpoint. Clear out the remaining HG who are now behind you, then man the gun.

Actually, it's much easier. You just have to kill the gunner, after this the Higs won't respawn. Honestly, I hate this kind of gamedesign. Luckily KZ2 doesn't rely completly on this through the whole campaign but the salamun bridge was no fun because of this. Manning the AA-Gun and killing those shitty guys after I FINALLY made it was very satisfying though. I just have to make it through the last part now to beat this level...urgs.
 

raYne

Member
ilanna said:
Oh no, I meant out in the open (Pyrrhus Rise for example) during body count. I've only ever done it once or maybe twice during normal body count matches, also I can never kill anyone with rocket launchers/grenade launchers. :( That's why I said they were HORRIBLE and I don't get the whole Assault class is over-powered complaints.
Here's the thing.. Whenever people complain about a class or spawn points or anything else, they're talking about specific situations.

When they complain about:
-People using rockets, grenade launchers or the Assault class, they're not talking about wide open maps.
-Shitty spawn point clusterfuck placements or a million explosives going off, they're talking about S&D.
-Shotguns, they're talking about being one shotted from far beyond what would be normal shotgun distance. Not one shotted in general or from close up.
-Assault class having twice the health + boost, for the most part, they're talking about Propagandy retrieval when an Assault is the carrier. Or specific one on one situations.
-etc

So the reason you don't understand is because you're looking at them from a different perspective than that of the complainer.
 
raYne said:
Here's the thing.. Whenever people complain about a class or spawn points or anything else, they're talking about specific situations.

When they complain about:
-People using rockets, grenade launchers or the Assault class, they're not talking about wide open maps.
-Shitty spawn point clusterfuck placements or a million explosives going off, they're talking about S&D.
-Shotguns, they're talking about being one shotted from far beyond what would be normal shotgun distance. Not one shotted in general or from close up.
-Assault class having twice the health + boost, for the most part, they're talking about Propagandy retrieval when an Assault is the carrier. Or specific one on one situations.
-etc

So the reason you don't understand is because you're looking at them from a different perspective than that of the complainer.

That is very true.
Having a team that works together though is pure gold in this game. Me, my brother and cousin managed to somehow get on the same team. It was us plus 2 other guys against 9 people. Even though we were outmatched by 4 we absolutely decimated them simply because we were all working together. My cousin was a Medic I was a Sab and my brother a Engineer / Tactician. That was some of the most fun I have had in a long time.
 

icechai

Member
BruceLeeRoy said:
That is very true.
Having a team that works together though is pure gold in this game. Me, my brother and cousin managed to somehow get on the same team. It was us plus 2 other guys against 9 people. Even though we were outmatched by 4 we absolutely decimated them simply because we were all working together. My cousin was a Medic I was a Sab and my brother a Engineer / Tactician. That was some of the most fun I have had in a long time.

that = every night i play with the GAFers :)
 
icechai said:
that = every night i play with the GAFers :)

Man I need to get in on that. Can you be a part of more than one clan?

People complain a lot about stuff in this game that to me is ridiculous. However, I do feel it is inexcusable for them to create a game that is only in its absolute zenith when your playing with friends and offer no "Party System". That more than anything else makes no sense to me.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
icechai said:
that = every night i play with the GAFers :)

The best part is playing with people who aren't just in it for themselves but wanted to win so everybody can get points x 1.5, which can make a big difference in terms of total score and ranking for everyone. That and it's alot moar fun.
angry.gif
 

Tempy

don't ask me for codes
Thrakier said:
Actually, it's much easier. You just have to kill the gunner, after this the Higs won't respawn. Honestly, I hate this kind of gamedesign. Luckily KZ2 doesn't rely completly on this through the whole campaign but the salamun bridge was no fun because of this. Manning the AA-Gun and killing those shitty guys after I FINALLY made it was very satisfying though. I just have to make it through the last part now to beat this level...urgs.

I think it's more of a bug than an intended feature.

While you arrive in the area, you can see ISA and HGH fighting each other. The HGH troops are from an unlimited emitter, as well as the ISA, to make you believe a larger, constant battle is being fought out.

As you approach the battlezone, the game considers you part of the battle and limits the emitter.

Unfortunately it seems like the trigger area where this happens is too small, and players experience unlimited spawns. This can be alleviated by either killing the AA gunner, or moving forward towards the area with the large blocks on the ground and the red barrels.
(Haven't checked in the final game, but this is what it used to be).

Not progression-breaking so don't expect a "fix'. The only place where unlimited emitters are intended, are either theater of war battles outside of the playable area, and the large outdoor courtyard battle in the Visari Palace level where you're required to push forward to stop the emitters.

Another interesting thing to note is that the Heavy Trooper used to be much harder. Partly because hitting his head to make him turn around was bugged, and partly when he was allowed to shoot smoke grenades as well as fire a grenade launcher.
 
Thrakier said:
Actually, it's much easier. You just have to kill the gunner, after this the Higs won't respawn. Honestly, I hate this kind of gamedesign. Luckily KZ2 doesn't rely completly on this through the whole campaign but the salamun bridge was no fun because of this. Manning the AA-Gun and killing those shitty guys after I FINALLY made it was very satisfying though. I just have to make it through the last part now to beat this level...urgs.

Hmm. I tried to aim from far away, but wasn't able to kill the gunner. He seems shielded by the gun, and the AR isn't accurate enough. With my method, and I know this sounds weird, once I reach the AA gun, he's no longer there. On Veteran, at least.

It's really easy, because you avoid all the actual fighting.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
Tempy said:
I think it's more of a bug than an intended feature.

While you arrive in the area, you can see ISA and HGH fighting each other. The HGH troops are from an unlimited emitter, as well as the ISA, to make you believe a larger, constant battle is being fought out.

As you approach the battlezone, the game considers you part of the battle and limits the emitter.

Unfortunately it seems like the trigger area where this happens is too small, and players experience unlimited spawns. This can be alleviated by either killing the AA gunner, or moving forward towards the area with the large blocks on the ground and the red barrels.
(Haven't checked in the final game, but this is what it used to be).

Not progression-breaking so don't expect a "fix'. The only place where unlimited emitters are intended, are either theater of war battles outside of the playable area, and the large outdoor courtyard battle in the Visari Palace level where you're required to push forward to stop the emitters.

Another interesting thing to note is that the Heavy Trooper used to be much harder. Partly because hitting his head to make him turn around was bugged, and partly when he was allowed to shoot smoke grenades as well as fire a grenade launcher.

I welcome the idea of tougher bosses.
KlintIndifference.gif
 

raYne

Member
RedRedSuit said:
Hmm. I tried to aim from far away, but wasn't able to kill the gunner. He seems shielded by the gun, and the AR isn't accurate enough. With my method, and I know this sounds weird, once I reach the AA gun, he's no longer there. On Veteran, at least.

It's really easy, because you avoid all the actual fighting.
Yep. Happened to me on two separate playthroughs. If you push all the way past the troops, but don't kill the gunner at all, he seems to be taken out by friendly AI.

Tempy said:
I think it's more of a bug than an intended feature.

While you arrive in the area, you can see ISA and HGH fighting each other. The HGH troops are from an unlimited emitter, as well as the ISA, to make you believe a larger, constant battle is being fought out.

As you approach the battlezone, the game considers you part of the battle and limits the emitter.

Unfortunately it seems like the trigger area where this happens is too small, and players experience unlimited spawns. This can be alleviated by either killing the AA gunner, or moving forward towards the area with the large blocks on the ground and the red barrels.
(Haven't checked in the final game, but this is what it used to be).

Not progression-breaking so don't expect a "fix'. The only place where unlimited emitters are intended, are either theater of war battles outside of the playable area, and the large outdoor courtyard battle in the Visari Palace level where you're required to push forward to stop the emitters.

Another interesting thing to note is that the Heavy Trooper used to be much harder. Partly because hitting his head to make him turn around was bugged, and partly when he was allowed to shoot smoke grenades as well as fire a grenade launcher.
Exactly the spot I was referring to. Thanks for the confirmation.
 

ChryZ

Member
Facism said:
Hopefully we continue to. We're in the same match tonight, right? At 10:30pm?
The crew for 10:30 is "Lince, Live, ChryZ, Viper" according to Raist's latest update. The online thread might be a better place to clarify this though.
 
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