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[Iain Howe]

Well any nerd can write thousands of sheets of lore to their LotR-ripoff mythologies, but it's a completely different matter to present it. A critical matter.

I can assure you it's harder than you dismissively portray it to be. Unless, you have some special insight that you'd like to share with us.

 

[deepbrown]

Well any nerd can write thousands of sheets of lore to their LotR-ripoff mythologies, but it's a completely different matter to present it. A critical matter.

Well, I think many players won't have played any of the last Killzone games, and so the story doesn't really play to that.

 

[Iain Howe]

I think it's a case of developers being out of touch. They obviously know the ins and outs of the story and universe, and can place the events of KZ2 in the timeline, the connections between characters and what not. The problem is that they forget that the average player doesn't have a clue about any of that.

Killzone 2 has some of the best graphics and sound of all time, but the storytelling and narrative presentation feel incredibly dated.

That's really not it, I'm afraid. You're assuming that the backstory was in place prior to the designing of the gameplay elements, but the truth is that the two narrative arcs are developed almost entirely seperately and service entirely different 'customers'.

The Backstory only has to arrange the narrative elements of the plots of the games, set them into a coherent timeline and remain consistent. Provided the Backstory keeps those elements true and fits into the creative vision of the Creative Director, it can be developed in splendid isolation from the game story, as was the case in Killzone 2. Provided that people understand the important 'bullet points' they don't need to be familiar with the nitty gritty.

The Game Story, on the other hand, has to service the gameplay that the Design Team intended for the game - which provides a counterpoint to the higher Creative Vision and can set up conflicts of expectation. Far more people have input into this process, and the process stays 'live' far longer - elements of levels can be chopped out, changed or added and the narrative elements for that level may change dramatically as a result.

Indeed, it's not uncommon for entire levels to be dropped from a game. You can see how exposition might vanish, or the exposition might be retained but the level elements it was meant to foreshadow are cut and the exposition now doesn't expose anything.

On any theoretical project the game story is in constant evolution and gets tugged this way and that in a fashion that I never had to face while developing the backstory. Also, whilst I took inspiration and instruction from various people when assembling the timeline, I was able to write the backstory as a single 'voice' and I think it was the simpler for that reason.

 

[braimuge]

Well, I think many players won't have played any of the last Killzone games, and so the story doesn't really play to that.

I've played the 1st Killzone, and it was the first FPS I actually liked( After Medal of Honor). I dunno why though...

 

[AranhaHunter]

I can assure you it's harder than you dismissively portray it to be. Unless, you have some special insight that you'd like to share with us.

So much anger in this post :lol

EDIT: Damn it you edited lol

 

[Iain Howe]

So much anger in this post :lol

EDIT: Damn it you edited lol

Yeah, it was supposed to be kind of flippant whilst reminding the dude in question that somebody (me) sat for days with spreadsheets and timelines and notes making the timeline and all the articles that hang off it consistent, and then had to jump through hoops getting it signed off.

When I reread it, it just sounded snarky - so I edited.

 

[Aaron]

I can assure you it's harder than you dismissively portray it to be. Unless, you have some special insight that you'd like to share with us.

When I first read this, I thought you would be defending LotR ripoff mythologies.

Bashing the story in games is the softest of soft targets. If you give them too little, they bitch about it being shallow. If you give them too much, they bitch about drowning in cut-scenes when they just want to play. Cramming in the finest tale over told when you have little to no control of the main character is a tall order. A slower paced game like Bioshock manages it better, but if you brought Killzone 2 down to the pace of Bio, people would complain about it being plodding...

Though you've got a job that many, including myself, would envy, so don't see why you would care too much about what others think about it.

 

[RamzaIsCool]

I am kinda baffled that they neglected the story-part of this game so much (especially after the solid outing of the first one). Maybe there weren't enough resources with all the things they tried to do with the game. But couldn't they just outsource this stuff to a third party or something. I never understood this with GoW either. It doesn't have to be Shakespear, but how hard can it be to have some normal, not-cringy dialogues? Especially when you have a $20 million+ budget to your disposal.

 

[Iain Howe]

When I first read this, I thought you would be defending LotR ripoff mythologies.

Well, many of the best games have ripped Tolkien off...

Bashing the story in games is the softest of soft targets. If you give them too little, they bitch about it being shallow. If you give them too much, they bitch about drowning in cut-scenes when they just want to play. Cramming in the finest tale over told when you have little to no control of the main character is a tall order. A slower paced game like Bioshock manages it better, but if you brought Killzone 2 down to the pace of Bio, people would complain about it being plodding...

Indeed, Kojima-san is often criticized for the amount of exposition he feels is necessary to enjoyably pilot Snake through the latest Metal Gear Solid game. The same can be said about the Final Fantasy series.

Though you've got a job that many, including myself, would envy, so don't see why you would care too much about what others think about it.

Had. I moved to Canada to pursue the life of Lumberjacking and Wolf wrestling many months ago. But, again, you're right - I blame insomnia and it being 03:30am.

 

[The Librarian]

I think it's a case of developers being out of touch. They obviously know the ins and outs of the story and universe, and can place the events of KZ2 in the timeline, the connections between characters and what not. The problem is that they forget that the average player doesn't have a clue about any of that.

Killzone 2 has some of the best graphics and sound of all time, but the storytelling and narrative presentation feel incredibly dated.

The dialogue in the demo is really bad. That, or it is the acting. Either way, I don't have high hopes for the story in the game. The back story and the universe are really good, though.

 

[Truant]

That's really not it, I'm afraid. You're assuming that the backstory was in place prior to the designing of the gameplay elements, but the truth is that the two narrative arcs are developed almost entirely seperately and service entirely different 'customers'.

The Backstory only has to arrange the narrative elements of the plots of the games, set them into a coherent timeline and remain consistent. Provided the Backstory keeps those elements true and fits into the creative vision of the Creative Director, it can be developed in splendid isolation from the game story, as was the case in Killzone 2. Provided that people understand the important 'bullet points' they don't need to be familiar with the nitty gritty.

The Game Story, on the other hand, has to service the gameplay that the Design Team intended for the game - which provides a counterpoint to the higher Creative Vision and can set up conflicts of expectation. Far more people have input into this process, and the process stays 'live' far longer - elements of levels can be chopped out, changed or added and the narrative elements for that level may change dramatically as a result.

Indeed, it's not uncommon for entire levels to be dropped from a game. You can see how exposition might vanish, or the exposition might be retained but the level elements it was meant to foreshadow are cut and the exposition now doesn't expose anything.

On any theoretical project the game story is in constant evolution and gets tugged this way and that in a fashion that I never had to face while developing the backstory. Also, whilst I took inspiration and instruction from various people when assembling the timeline, I was able to write the backstory as a single 'voice' and I think it was the simpler for that reason.

All of this do not change the fact that Guerilla fails to present an engaging or interesting narrative experience. I don't claim to know anything about game design, but I know what works for me as someone who has played games for 20 years. I'm a little disappointed that such a high profile game has such a sub-par narrative. I don't care that it's difficult. I don't want excuses from developers, when other games make it work.

 

[Iain Howe]

It doesn't have to be Shakespear, but how hard can it be to have some normal, not-cringy dialogues? Especially when you have a $20 million+ budget to your disposal.

It's not for lack of trying, believe me. It's very, very hard.

The process seems to have evolved thusly:

The earliest games didn't have the money to hire anyone - so dialog writing was the job of whoever had the time and was the most literary minded of the designers. As game budgets grew, that was obviously too amateur.

Next the bigger budget games tried hiring professional authors - but authors get vast amounts of space to describe things and people in. Games are a very fast moving medium and authors just didn't have the narrative space to do their thing.

Hollywood screenwriters have also been hired - but frankly, that hasn't been a perfect fit either. The amount of cutscene time that a game has to spend on exposition of events or characters is miniscule, and whilst you CAN use the gameplay as exposition, it's MUCH harder to do so. Imagine episodes of Band of Brothers where the player gets to control the camera? Moreover, imagine the player is one of those soft and fragile bodies being pelted with shrapnel and bullets.


Once the shooting starts, most players are interested in the placement of their next shot and the location of their next piece of cover. They aren't interested in watching a piece of plot development and they'll almost never be looking the right way. Hollywood writers are teamed with a Director to deliver PRECISELY the right timings, effects and shot angles to the viewer. Games cannot and never will have that degree of control.

I guess we still haven't hit upon the right way of delivering movie quality storytelling in a game. I think that's why players have a higher tolerance when it doesn't work out quite right.

 

[Iain Howe]

All of this do not change the fact that Guerilla fails to present an engaging or interesting narrative experience. I don't claim to know anything about game design, but I know what works for me as someone who has played games for 20 years. I'm a little disappointed that such a high profile game has such a sub-par narrative. I don't care that it's difficult. I don't want excuses from developers, when other games make it work.

Nope. It obviously didn't work for you, and nothing on an internet forum is going to make it work for you. It's totally your right to express your lack of satisfaction as a consumer.

But I thought we were actually having a discussion about WHY it didn't work. You certainly advanced your opinion, I thought you might want to know why it was totally inaccurate.

 

[icechai]

I guess we still haven't hit upon the right way of delivering movie quality storytelling in a game. I think that's why players have a higher tolerance when it doesn't work out quite right.

Hey Iain, has Guerilla or other companies hired copywriters yet for games? Like you mentioned, your normal writer has more space than usual, and scriptwriters are used to delivering in a different format (and they have more space than games often as well). Copywriters write for ads and marketing, they have to get a story across in very few sentences, I think any in game story/dialogue lines would probably benefit more from a copywriter than what they've been using.

Find it kind of funny how much of a nerve the dialogue lines in KZ2 are hitting on people. Although I'll have to wait for 2 weeks before I get to see whether it affects me or not

 

[deepbrown]

Nope. It obviously didn't work for you, and nothing on an internet forum is going to make it work for you. It's totally your right to express your lack of satisfaction as a consumer.

But I thought we were actually having a discussion about WHY it didn't work. You certainly advanced your opinion, I thought you might want to know why it was totally inaccurate.

Would be interesting to see Heavy Rain then...as I'm of the opinion that Video Games can deliver emotion and story better than films - if done right.

 

[Iain Howe]

Hey Iain, has Guerilla or other companies hired copywriters yet for games? Like you mentioned, your normal writer has more space than usual, and scriptwriters are used to delivering in a different format (and they have more space than games often as well). Copywriters write for ads and marketing, they have to get a story across in very few sentences, I think any in game story/dialogue lines would probably benefit more from a copywriter than what they've been using.

Find it kind of funny how much of a nerve the dialogue lines in KZ2 are hitting on people. Although I'll have to wait for 2 weeks before I get to see whether it affects me or not

Guerrilla has hired both authors and screenwriters for its games in the past, including for Killzone 2. I'm scratching my head to think of a FPS that wasn't an RPG as well that HASN'T had trite dialog, and coming up blanks... I know Shellshock and Killzone 1 got stick for it, but I don't remember enough Liberation reviews to know if that did too.

I have to admit the current reaction is kind of puzzling and appalling to me, in equal measure. One of the things I especially wanted to do was 'de-cheese' things, and I really expected that criticisms might run more along the lines of the dialog being bland and generic than horribly cheesy. I spent a very large chunk of my life growing up around the military, which is why the dialog is a bit 'rugby club' in its use of profanity.

 

[ChryZ]

This kind of discussion sucks. So very few got access to the final code, it would be better to save it for a time when more people can voice an educated opinion.

 

[FirewalkR]

Kinda OT: Iain, seems to me you're a science fiction fan, what do you recommend in terms of books?

 

[Iain Howe]

Would be interesting to see Heavy Rain then...as I'm of the opinion that Video Games can deliver emotion and story better than films - if done right.

I'm sure that Video Games can deliver emotion and story. Some Video games can maybe even do this better than film - after all you ARE the protagonist, so the narrative should be more compelling, right?

I think you'd agree that different game genres have their strengths in different areas, though.

 

[deepbrown]

Guerrilla has hired both authors and screenwriters for its games in the past, including for Killzone 2. I'm scratching my head to think of a FPS that wasn't an RPG as well that HASN'T had trite dialog, and coming up blanks... I know Shellshock and Killzone 1 got stick for it, but I don't remember enough Liberation reviews to know if that did too.

I have to admit the current reaction is kind of puzzling and appalling to me, in equal measure. One of the things I especially wanted to do was 'de-cheese' things, and I really expected that criticisms might run more along the lines of the dialog being bland and generic than horribly cheesy. I spent a very large chunk of my life growing up around the military, which is why the dialog is a bit 'rugby club' in its use of profanity.

Hold on, you're from GG?

 

[Iain Howe]

Kinda OT: Iain, seems to me you're a science fiction fan, what do you recommend in terms of books?

Yeah, I do like Science Fiction. Heinlein is quite a good read, my favourite is the Banksian novels, especially the ones that deal with the Culture.

Use of Weapons, Player of Games, Excession - those are my favourite books by Iain M. Banks.

 

[deepbrown]

I'm sure that Video Games can deliver emotion and story. Some Video games can maybe even do this better than film - after all you ARE the protagonist, so the narrative should be more compelling, right?

I think you'd agree that different game genres have their strengths in different areas, though.

Yeah, I'm more talking about in-game moments though. Like the micro-wave scene in MGS4, or the fight between Liquid and Snake in MGS4. Moments when you are actually taking part in the narrative.

 

[Iain Howe]

Hold on, you're from GG?

Not any more, I went freelance last summer and finished up my freelance contract last winter.

 

[braimuge]

Not any more, I went freelance last summer and finished up my freelance contract last winter.

Wow, so how's it going now?

 

[Iain Howe]

Yeah, I'm more talking about in-game moments though. Like the micro-wave scene in MGS4, or the fight between Liquid and Snake in MGS4. Moments when you are actually taking part in the narrative.

I agree - that's the stuff that games do really well!

But how much time does MGS spend on exposition and story development in cutscene to prepare you for those moments? Way more than most games, and even that's not as much as a movie or a book gets.

 

[Iain Howe]

Wow, so how's it going now?

Canada has been everything I hoped it would be. I made the move for personal, not professional reasons (Guerrilla is an awesome company, made even more awesome by its relationship with Sony, and if career was everything in the world, I'd still be there!) and on that front I have absolutely no complaints.

 

[deepbrown]

Guerrilla has hired both authors and screenwriters for its games in the past, including for Killzone 2. I'm scratching my head to think of a FPS that wasn't an RPG as well that HASN'T had trite dialog, and coming up blanks... I know Shellshock and Killzone 1 got stick for it, but I don't remember enough Liberation reviews to know if that did too.

I have to admit the current reaction is kind of puzzling and appalling to me, in equal measure. One of the things I especially wanted to do was 'de-cheese' things, and I really expected that criticisms might run more along the lines of the dialog being bland and generic than horribly cheesy. I spent a very large chunk of my life growing up around the military, which is why the dialog is a bit 'rugby club' in its use of profanity.

Well what you have got right is the dialogue between characters during the battle - that in itself works. And is excellent even, really making you feel part of a team. It's especially impressive that characters and enemies tend to say very different things, without repeating (a failure in many games) and actually saying useful/relevant things.

There's also some good exposition in the game - Visari is especially my favorite voice actor in the game. Which might be your problem - some of the voice-acting is bad. Sev's actor is great, but the guy who plays Rico sounds like he's trying too hard to put on a gruff deep voice...unless he actually speaks like that in real life. If a voice actor isn't good enough to get film work, then they aren't good enough to be in a game that's meant to be a blockbuster film selling millions of copies.

And people are being unfair, there are great moments in the story - incredible and touching even. People might be harsh due to the dialogue being a little dodgy in places.

And I think you could have touched on the history a bit more.

 

[Tenkai Star]

Not any more, I went freelance last summer and finished up my freelance contract last winter.

May I touch you?

 

[braimuge]

Canada has been everything I hoped it would be. I made the move for personal, not professional reasons (Guerrilla is an awesome company, made even more awesome by its relationship with Sony, and if career was everything in the world, I'd still be there!) and on that front I have absolutely no complaints.

That's awesome man. Are you at liberty to say what games you've worked on previously? Because I'd like to thank developers, and it's not everyday one gets a chance to do so. If you're not at liberty to say so, then I'd like to say thanks in general for any work you devs do.

Oh and if you're Dutch.

Bedankt, jullie maken alles gaaf.

 

[Mik2121]

Ian Howe, in what department were you working at Guerrilla?

 

[Iain Howe]

Well what you have got right is the dialogue between characters during the battle - that in itself works. And is excellent even, really making you feel part of a team. It's especially impressive that characters and enemies tend to say very different things, without repeating (a failure in many games) and actually saying useful/relevant things.

There's also some good exposition in the game - Visari is especially my favorite voice actor in the game. Which might be your problem - some of the voice-acting is bad. Sev's actor is great, but the guy who plays Rico sounds like he's trying too hard to put on a gruff deep voice...unless he actually speaks like that in real life.

And people are being unfair, there are great moments in the story - incredible and touching even. People might be harsh due to the dialogue being a little dodgy in places.

And I think you could have touched on the history a bit more.

I'm really looking forward to hearing all that battlechatter in the final game.

 

[nib95]

Well what you have got right is the dialogue between characters during the battle - that in itself works. And is excellent even, really making you feel part of a team. It's especially impressive that characters and enemies tend to say very different things, without repeating (a failure in many games) and actually saying useful/relevant things.

There's also some good exposition in the game - Visari is especially my favorite voice actor in the game. Which might be your problem - some of the voice-acting is bad. Sev's actor is great, but the guy who plays Rico sounds like he's trying too hard to put on a gruff deep voice...unless he actually speaks like that in real life. If a voice actor isn't good enough to get film work, then they aren't good enough to be in a game that's meant to be a blockbuster film selling millions of copies.

And people are being unfair, there are great moments in the story - incredible and touching even. People might be harsh due to the dialogue being a little dodgy in places.

And I think you could have touched on the history a bit more.

Agreed. Personally I think Traunt is being way too hard on the game. He sounds like one of those film critics who go in to Transformers expecting Oscar winning performances and then complain afterwards when they don't get it.

 

[Iain Howe]

That's awesome man. Are you at liberty to say what games you've worked on previously? Because I'd like to thank developers, and it's not everyday one gets a chance to do so. If you're not at liberty to say so, then I'd like to say thanks in general for any work you devs do.

Oh and if you're Dutch.

Bedankt, jullie maken alles gaaf.

You can use www.mobygames.com to see what Developers have worked on in the past, not sure all mine are on there, but most of them are.

Not Dutch, I'm afraid, but still - Bedankt, menheer.

 

[deepbrown]

I'm really looking forward to hearing all that battlechatter in the final game.

Get a copy dude.

 

[FirewalkR]

OT:

Yeah, I do like Science Fiction. Heinlein is quite a good read, my favourite is the Banksian novels, especially the ones that deal with the Culture.

Use of Weapons, Player of Games, Excession - those are my favourite books by Iain M. Banks.

Ha! Had to be from another Iain. :lol

Consider Phlebas and Player of Games are my favorites I guess, Use of Weapons was somewhat spoiled for me, not in specifics but all the talk of "z0mg twist" etc. but it's also very good. I think the most recent books have been weaker overall, but all have some strong points, and I love female Culture agents.

There are quite some writers with big, well developed universes, like Peter F. Hamilton, Neal Asher (the Ian Cormac books), Richard Morgan (Takeshi Kovacs) or Alastair Reynolds. I'd recommend the latest book I've read, by Reynolds, called House of Suns. It's easily his best and is awesome. I'd also like to recommend the book I always recommend since I first read it a while ago, Blindsight by Peter Watts. It's extremely dark but the concepts on display are incredible. It made me think about the questions it raises more than any book in recent memory. Its central question/debate revolves around the concept of sentience but I won't get into any specifics so as not to spoil. It has truly alien characters (the humans are as alien as the aliens lol) AND it manages to use vampires in a completely science-fictional way. It was nominated for some big awards, but Vernor Vinge got all the attention that year with a book that's quite good but not up to par with his "Zones of Thought" books (which I also recommend as two of the best SF books ever). Well, too much OT for today already.

 

[braimuge]

You can use www.mobygames.com to see what Developers have worked on in the past, not sure all mine are on there, but most of them are.

Not Dutch, I'm afraid, but still - Bedankt, menheer.

Whoa, thanks.

 

[Fersis]

So... im the only one who it isnt looking for 'Also Spracht Zarathustra' on Killzone 2 ?:lol
Come on guys, the script can be good for a shooter, just dont look for anything else.

 

[FirewalkR]

Bedankt, jullie maken alles gaaf.

I take it that's dutch for gaf. Neogaaf. I like it!!

 

[braimuge]

I take it that's dutch for gaf. Neogaaf. I like it!!

Gaaf, is awesome in Dutch.

So yeah, in a sense, NeoGAF, could be NeoAwesome!

 

[Truant]

Nope. It obviously didn't work for you, and nothing on an internet forum is going to make it work for you. It's totally your right to express your lack of satisfaction as a consumer.

But I thought we were actually having a discussion about WHY it didn't work. You certainly advanced your opinion, I thought you might want to know why it was totally inaccurate.

I think you're confusing my opinion about the story, and my bullshit theory as to why the story wasn't presented well enough within the game. You cannot say that my opinion is inacurate. That is a logical fallacy.

Back to the discussion, here are some simple points that I felt could have been done way better.

Characters - While I understand that these are just your basic Gears of War type grunts, they could have been introduced better, and for all intents and purposes; be even more stereotypical for the simple sake of getting more personality into the game. There is a lot of cursing in the game, and it feels incredibly forced.

Sev does have his moments of exposition towards the middle and end of the game, but it comes off as really abrupt. I think it would have been smarter to focus exclusively on one type of presentation. As a player, you get confused. One moment, you're Sev, you're in the action. The next moment, you're still Sev, but the game is controlling you. Suddenly, you see Sev being all emotional in front of the camera. I think the benefits of focusing excusively on one style would outweigh the negatives.

Motivation - I never really got why the ISA decided to capture Visari instead of just killing him. To prevent Martyrdom? I have no idea. Visari isn't really present in the game as much as I would like. Half-Life 2 and Bioshock are brilliant examples of constantly reminding you of what and why you are after, be that the Citadel, Dr. Breen, or Andrew Ryan.

I don't want to spoil anything here, but the biggest problem here is that the game never explains why stuff happens. It just does. Go here, find that, go here, rescue this. I acknowledge that some stuff are better explained than other, but I never got the feeling of natural progression that I get from similar games.

Can you bring some insight into this, and if I'm just plainly not paying attention to what's going on? Did you guys ever think this would be an issue to the average gamer? I mean, my guess would be 'no', but to see the care and love being put into other aspects of the game makes me a little bitter as I love a good narrative experience.

 

[zoukka]

Agreed. Personally I think Traunt is being way too hard on the game. He sounds like one of those film critics who go in to Transformers expecting Oscar winning performances and then complain afterwards when they don't get it.

No one expects "Oscar winning" anything from blockbuster(game)s. But it doesn't mean people still can't be disappointed in 'em. Even though a story is cheesy, you still either deliver it smoothly/elegantly or don't. It's really simple.

 

[Truant]

Agreed. Personally I think Traunt is being way too hard on the game. He sounds like one of those film critics who go in to Transformers expecting Oscar winning performances and then complain afterwards when they don't get it.

I actually read up on the backstory and universe before playing the game, expecting that sort of stuff to actually be in the game. Everyone was saying how the game was supposed to have this excellent story, so I kinda went in expecting that. It's my own fault, but that doesn't make the game any better.

 

[nelsonroyale]

No one expects "Oscar winning" anything from blockbuster(game)s. But it doesn't mean people still can't be disappointed in 'em. Even though a story is cheesy, you still either deliver it smoothly/elegantly or don't. It's really simple.

fair enough... but it is also needs to be considered how important the narrative is to the experience...I mean if I was being critical I would say Gears had a story with zero narrative hooks, zero interesting characters, no themes...nothing interesting whatsoever...still didn't stop me from enjoying it...it was cheesy, crap and entertaining...I am expecting the story in KZ2 to be so much fluff..made enjoyable by awesome immersion and atmosphere...

 

[Truant]

fair enough... but it is also needs to be considered how important the narrative is to the experience...I mean if I was being critical I would say Gears had a story with zero narrative hooks, zero interesting characters, no themes...nothing interesting whatsoever...still didn't stop me from enjoying it...it was cheesy, crap and entertaining...I am expecting the story in KZ2 to be so much fluff..made enjoyable by awesome immersion and atmosphere...

The main difference is that Gears makes it pretty obvious that it's supposed to be cheesy.

 

[FirewalkR]

Gaaf, is awesome in Dutch.

So yeah, in a sense, NeoGAF, could be NeoAwesome!

It all makes sense now. Life, everything.

 

[zoukka]

fair enough... but it is also needs to be considered how important the narrative is to the experience...I mean if I was being critical I would say Gears had a story with zero narrative hooks, zero interesting characters, no themes...nothing interesting whatsoever...still didn't stop me from enjoying it...it was cheesy, crap and entertaining...I am expecting the story in KZ2 to be so much fluff..made enjoyable by awesome immersion and atmosphere...

Yeah of course crappy plots can be entertaining. But if K2 story is anything like K1, well then it's far from entertaining. Gears knows it's shit in that department (1 at least), but K1 didn't. So bad...

DMC1 cheese. Now that was great!

 

[deepbrown]

I think you're confusing my opinion about the story, and my bullshit theory as to why the story wasn't presented well enough within the game. You cannot say that my opinion is inacurate. That is a logical fallacy.

Back to the discussion, here are some simple points that I felt could have been done way better.

Characters - While I understand that these are just your basic Gears of War type grunts, they could have been introduced better, and for all intents and purposes; be even more stereotypical for the simple sake of getting more personality into the game. There is a lot of cursing in the game, and it feels incredibly forced.

Sev does have his moments of exposition towards the middle and end of the game, but it comes off as really abrupt. I think it would have been smarter to focus exclusively on one type of presentation. As a player, you get confused. One moment, you're Sev, you're in the action. The next moment, you're still Sev, but the game is controlling you. Suddenly, you see Sev being all emotional in front of the camera. I think the benefits of focusing excusively on one style would outweigh the negatives.

Motivation - I never really got why the ISA decided to capture Visari instead of just killing him. To prevent Martyrdom? I have no idea. Visari isn't really present in the game as much as I would like. Half-Life 2 and Bioshock are brilliant examples of constantly reminding you of what and why you are after, be that the Citadel, Dr. Breen, or Andrew Ryan.

I don't want to spoil anything here, but the biggest problem here is that the game never explains why stuff happens. It just does. Go here, find that, go here, rescue this. I acknowledge that some stuff are better explained than other, but I never got the feeling of natural progression that I get from similar games.

Can you bring some insight into this, and if I'm just plainly not paying attention to what's going on? Did you guys ever think this would be an issue to the average gamer? I mean, my guess would be 'no', but to see the care and love being put into other aspects of the game makes me a little bitter as I love a good narrative experience.

An opinion being wrong is not a logical fallacy, opinions can legitimately be wrong.

However, it being wrong that your opinion is your opinion is a logical fallacy.

And yes I kind of agree that not enough is explained - the game is definitely trying to get across the fact that you're going straight into a war. However, not even at the beginning is it explained who each of these people are, that the Helghast invaded "Earth" to begin with, who the Helghast are etc etc. I think the game presumes you've played Killzone.

 

[Truant]

Look, it don't want to upset anyone here. I like the game, make no mistake. I'm just surprised such a big budget game doesn't present itself a little better.

 

[Truant]

An opinion being wrong is not a logical fallacy, opinions can legitimately be wrong.

However, it being wrong that your opinion is your opinion is a logical fallacy.

I'd hate to quote the W, but

An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something which it is either impossible to verify the truth of, or the truth of which is thought unimportant to the person. It is an assertion about something especially if that something lies in the future and its truth or falsity cannot be directly established e.g. induction. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. If it later becomes proven or verified, it is no longer an opinion, but a fact.

 

[Forsete]

And yes I kind of agree that not enough is explained - the game is definitely get across the fact that you're going straight into a war. However, not even at the beginning is it explained who each of these people are, that the Helghast invaded "Earth" to begin with, who the Helghast are etc etc. I think the game presumes you've played Killzone.

So its a little like Half-Life 2? Not everything is served on a silver platter, you'll have to do a little digging yourself?