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KILLZONE 3 |OT| The King Is Dead. Long Live The King.
- Thread starter alr1ght
- Start date
TSP's are fine. Capturing a point is more of a team objective since you have to push with your team to successfully try and cap one. If you're running around on your own, you're going to struggle to make an impact.
I don't get why people think if they are not a Tact they can't help in capturing a TSP. Engineer can put turrets down to suppress the other team, medic can help tact's to stay alive, marksmen can pick people spawning off from far or get in close to scramble radars, infiltrators flank from the back and cause problems. There are also so many routes to each TSP excluding Turbine, you should be able to sneak up on most as a Tact.
Just because a TSP is not on your screen doesn't mean you can't help.
I don't get why people think if they are not a Tact they can't help in capturing a TSP. Engineer can put turrets down to suppress the other team, medic can help tact's to stay alive, marksmen can pick people spawning off from far or get in close to scramble radars, infiltrators flank from the back and cause problems. There are also so many routes to each TSP excluding Turbine, you should be able to sneak up on most as a Tact.
Just because a TSP is not on your screen doesn't mean you can't help.
I'm hanging in the towel, this game needs work. It feels like a chore to have fun in this game.
Latency/lag issues mess up things pretty significantly: Too often do i die instantly to a rifles first bullet. Even after I put a full clip into someone's chest. This makes exchanging mid range fire in choke point corridors, which are oh so common, frustrating.
The hit detection and level geometry is horrible. Trying to use cover to your advantage to pop shot can be a double edged sword. Some areas with cover can make an enemy behind cover seemingly unhittable--thanks to extended invisible walls, while other cover emplacements are impossible to use to get shots off. Invisible walls will catch your outgoing bullets ;/. The best example of this, are the turrets. Trying to snipe the exposed legs of a gunner at a machinegun nest, facing directly it, will more often then not lead to the bullet magically hitting the turret instead. While this isn't much of a problem, as it requires only 2 sniper shots to blow the turret, it does demonstrate the off geometry.
Class balance is just jaw dropping. What were going through GG's minds when they created these classes? The engineer was nerfed to the bottom. The medic hasn't gotten more useful in its useless medic function from the previous iteration. And the tactician, infiltrator, and marksmen all completely excel--especially the later 2. Engineers are limited to only installing 1 turret which is:
good for a free 50 points for the opposition, or only beneficial for rocket pounding unaware players.
nerfs from kz2 include--> worse tracking, slower target acquisition, easily killable with less than a full clip from any primary gun, engineers can now only place one turret, infiltrator's disguise now fools turrets, turrets can now be hacked. Yet that tactician, an already important class, gained the spot and mark ability, that makes it amazing for approaching enemy locations and a rocket launcher to boot. I don't even think I need to mention how much the infiltrator was buffed from kz2.
Then you have the marksman--> why on earth is hunting down this class behind enemy lines a task of impossibility. GG gave us no tools for countering this class.
TSPs need no introduction. I can't emphasize how much TSPs bottleneck the game exasperating the chokepointy nature of the maps.
The more I play these maps against competent teams, even on a competent team myself, the more I realize how poor these maps are. The junkyard map, the turbine map, and the Phyrus map joined Akmir Snowdrift and corinth crossing on my shitlist maps.
Turbine is a spawn camping nightmare with that elevated TSP. But this map can still be fun in spite of this issue.
The junkyard map, even in warzone, devolves into simply a team deathmatch at one of the 3 impenetrable no-mans lands. There is no easy way to move past these 3 bottlenecks. It just becomes a game of spraying bullets at the feet or heads of enemies through the doors. Trying to push through is nothing but a suicidal thought.
The phyrus map is just too cramp. Its incredibly hard to battle through this map of vertical and horizontal twists and turns with the move.
Corinth crossing isn't too particularly bad in my opinion. Its just that, the TSPs can be extremely difficult to recapture under certain conditions and EXOS, Wasps, and the numerous marksman, makes flow on this map rather constricted for such an open map. The worse thing about this map is the framerate.
Though it is funny, I've only played akmir snowdrift once in the past 3 days due to other people sharing my same hatred for the map. The one time I did play it, it was only because the players couldn't rally to choose one other alternative map. The vote was a tie between two other maps and the tie breaker was the map next in rotation that everyone was voting against in the first place. How sad ;/.
Mortars, exos, wasps--> whats the point? They don't add much to the gameplay, they are not particular deep gameplay mechanics, yet they are incredibly easy to rack up kills with. These three game mechanics also hurt the framerate tremendously.
Also specifically concerning the mortar, it has killed me numerous times in places that seemed soundly safe. I was 10 meters deep in the tunnel that opened up under the bridge on the Junkyard map and still managed to get mortared to death. I've also been killed in the subterranean portion that lies under the crusher. But then again, its ceiling isn't completely inclosed.
Latency/lag issues mess up things pretty significantly: Too often do i die instantly to a rifles first bullet. Even after I put a full clip into someone's chest. This makes exchanging mid range fire in choke point corridors, which are oh so common, frustrating.
The hit detection and level geometry is horrible. Trying to use cover to your advantage to pop shot can be a double edged sword. Some areas with cover can make an enemy behind cover seemingly unhittable--thanks to extended invisible walls, while other cover emplacements are impossible to use to get shots off. Invisible walls will catch your outgoing bullets ;/. The best example of this, are the turrets. Trying to snipe the exposed legs of a gunner at a machinegun nest, facing directly it, will more often then not lead to the bullet magically hitting the turret instead. While this isn't much of a problem, as it requires only 2 sniper shots to blow the turret, it does demonstrate the off geometry.
Class balance is just jaw dropping. What were going through GG's minds when they created these classes? The engineer was nerfed to the bottom. The medic hasn't gotten more useful in its useless medic function from the previous iteration. And the tactician, infiltrator, and marksmen all completely excel--especially the later 2. Engineers are limited to only installing 1 turret which is:
good for a free 50 points for the opposition, or only beneficial for rocket pounding unaware players.
nerfs from kz2 include--> worse tracking, slower target acquisition, easily killable with less than a full clip from any primary gun, engineers can now only place one turret, infiltrator's disguise now fools turrets, turrets can now be hacked. Yet that tactician, an already important class, gained the spot and mark ability, that makes it amazing for approaching enemy locations and a rocket launcher to boot. I don't even think I need to mention how much the infiltrator was buffed from kz2.
Then you have the marksman--> why on earth is hunting down this class behind enemy lines a task of impossibility. GG gave us no tools for countering this class.
TSPs need no introduction. I can't emphasize how much TSPs bottleneck the game exasperating the chokepointy nature of the maps.
The more I play these maps against competent teams, even on a competent team myself, the more I realize how poor these maps are. The junkyard map, the turbine map, and the Phyrus map joined Akmir Snowdrift and corinth crossing on my shitlist maps.
Turbine is a spawn camping nightmare with that elevated TSP. But this map can still be fun in spite of this issue.
The junkyard map, even in warzone, devolves into simply a team deathmatch at one of the 3 impenetrable no-mans lands. There is no easy way to move past these 3 bottlenecks. It just becomes a game of spraying bullets at the feet or heads of enemies through the doors. Trying to push through is nothing but a suicidal thought.
The phyrus map is just too cramp. Its incredibly hard to battle through this map of vertical and horizontal twists and turns with the move.
Corinth crossing isn't too particularly bad in my opinion. Its just that, the TSPs can be extremely difficult to recapture under certain conditions and EXOS, Wasps, and the numerous marksman, makes flow on this map rather constricted for such an open map. The worse thing about this map is the framerate.
Though it is funny, I've only played akmir snowdrift once in the past 3 days due to other people sharing my same hatred for the map. The one time I did play it, it was only because the players couldn't rally to choose one other alternative map. The vote was a tie between two other maps and the tie breaker was the map next in rotation that everyone was voting against in the first place. How sad ;/.
Mortars, exos, wasps--> whats the point? They don't add much to the gameplay, they are not particular deep gameplay mechanics, yet they are incredibly easy to rack up kills with. These three game mechanics also hurt the framerate tremendously.
Also specifically concerning the mortar, it has killed me numerous times in places that seemed soundly safe. I was 10 meters deep in the tunnel that opened up under the bridge on the Junkyard map and still managed to get mortared to death. I've also been killed in the subterranean portion that lies under the crusher. But then again, its ceiling isn't completely inclosed.
user friendly
Member
At least with spawn grenades you can drop one out and then continue on to the objective. Wheras TSP need to be babysat or you lose it within seconds of aquiring it. Had so much fun last night playing KZ
2
Try turning off the rumble through the XMB screen on the Move.Dibbz said:
My move needed a charge the other day when I was playing with Gaf and I didnt wanna stop. So I turned on the DS3 for the first time ever on KZ3 (havent used it once). It feel so fucken horrible to use. I was like wtf is this shit, my thumbs felt so weak trying to move the sticks for precise accuracy. I also sucked trying to thrust my controller forward to melee LOL I forgot the control scheme etc.
It became obvious to me it was a matter of getting use to the controller youll be using. The move is just great when the calibration is spot on, like heaven seriously.
There's absolutely no reason for a non-Tactician to attack an enemy-controlled TSP unless they are with a Tactician or know one is on their way - that is what we're talking about. Plus the fact that non-Tacticians can't easily see which TSP's aren't under their control while in-game makes it more difficult.Dibbz said:
Enemies spawning with temporary invulnerability, a reduced respawn count, and you as a non-Tactician being unable to do anything to neutralize the spawns means it's futile. The best scenario is that (in absence of any communication which is 90% of pubs) you distract/hold them off long enough for a Tactician to randomly show up.
This all means that if you're a Tactician there's no reason to expect non-Tacticians to help you unless they're nuts or it's a coincidence.
user friendly
Member
I have, although not really with gaf but it's more of a fight for the tsp then the actual objective, unless your team is just plain better than the other. The timer is so low that you barely have time to set up any sort of offense. My stats are good and I don't know how to tell but I've probably put in more time most have. It's not the hang of it I need to get, I just don't lijke the changes made coming from KZ2. Don't really like the maps either.Massa said:
Dibbz said:
If we are going to play Theoryzone, then sure. The rest of the team clears a path with all of their special talents so the tactician can run up and capture. Or, I guess, everyone could be a tactician, with the best rifle in the game, which seems to be a lot better idea.
In reality, TSPs suck because they encourage spawn camping, create bottlenecks, need too much attention at the sacrifice of the objectives, and, on some maps, 100% dictate the winner of the game.
Negaiido said:You don't like COD? Killzone 3 is practically like COD but then with a Killzone skin
Yeah, people now are just discussing the TSP's system in Call of Duty.
commish said:
Spawn camping is a possibility in any game that doesn't randomly spawn people.
In KZ2 a tactician with boost would place spawn points very near the objective. The other team would do the same and the rest of the map would be empty for 5 minutes (or 30, depending on the dumbass that created the server).
Now, say S&D. In KZ3 you actually have to gain control of that point so you can plant the charges. It's much more challenging and satisfying than KZ2, and requires more team work. I laugh at your team of tacticians, sorry.
Dibbz said:
Corinth Highway - if one team holds all the TSPs, easy to prevent the other team from even getting near the TSPs with exo's, snipers, proximity mines, etc. It's pretty hard to flank or come from a different direction because there are only so many places to go and all are covered by a good team. Just yesterday I was spawn camped to hell on this map. The fact that the map is so damn big compounds the problem 1900 fold.
Pyrrhus Crater - needs no explanation.
Blvd - one of the maps I like to play on. TSPs don't determine the winner, relatively easy to take back a TSP from other team. Smaller map, so TSPs don't matter as much and the game is better off for it.
Turbine - needs no explanation.
Frozen Damn - good map overall (compared to rest), despite the fact that the spawn points aren't evenly placed. Still, since it's a relatively small map, the TSPs don't 100% dictate the winner and loser. However, if a good team controls all 3 TSPs, it can be difficult for the other side to leave their spawn consistently.
Snowdrift - worst map in all of KZ3.
Graveyard - this map is also pretty terrible, with four sets of doors acting as huge chokepoints and the middle zone is pretty much a guaranteed death. The problem with this map is that the TSPs are poorly placed - it's so easy to get back "your" TSP if the other side takes it that it's hard to complete the objectives since you're constantly running from your spawn. This map would be a *lot* better with spawn grenades.
Salamun - my favorite map of KZ3 (despite the dumb additions). TSPs are relatively easy to take back, but are too close together. It's 100% impossible to plant the bomb if a good team has the closest spawn unless you plant within 30 seconds of the round starting before defenses are set up. I think we've all held the high spawn at some point, equipped our rocket launchers, and spammed rockets down on the other spawn point.
commish said:
Nah, I don't take competitive shooters seriously enough to do that. I'm in a clan in KZ2 and BC2 purely for matchmaking purposes.
I do see a lot of clans playing pub games, but I suppose that doesn't make the argument you were trying to make because I don't see anything different in those situations.
commish said:
Well, if one the teams manages to control the entire map it's not really the game's fault, is it? That happens more often in KZ2 than KZ3 in my experience. KZ3 is about on par with BC2, it's not common to see a 7-0 domiation.
That will be better handled for clan games with a patch though, where the losing team can "gg, quit" out of a game and the game actually ends.
TheExecutive
Member
Massa said:
There needs to be more TSP's on maps. You can tell how awfully they are balanced in some maps by the amount of spawn camping that occurs at some bases.
TheExecutive said:
More TSP's would spread the teams too thin. If your team controls one TSP you can win in any map, and because the entire team mostly spawns there then it's much easier to control that TSP.
With a lot more TSP's the game would become a pointless capture & hold for tacticians.
They really need to do something about the DLC maps getting priority in playlists. I've pretty much exclusively been playing them for the past few days. Most Warzone maps I haven't even played outside of Botzone. I've actually never played Turbine Concourse since it's not in Botzone.
Massa said:
Well, suffice to say that things are a lot different when fighting against an organized team who knows the value of TSPs. And yes, it's not unusual to see 80% of a team playing as tacticians
Hell, we even go all tactician when we need to get spawn points.Dibbz said:
Other than the specific reasons that are already in this thread, TSPs rarely contribute a net positive to the game. They limit the possibilities. A lot of objectives can only be won by capturing the TSPs outside of it. Otherwise the logistics of quicker troop arrivals on the defensive team will win out against a more skilled offensive team. On many maps, TSPs are entitlements, such as on Biglarsk boulevard and Mawlr junkyard. These TSPs are rarely conquered by the other team unless your own team is incompetent. In addition TSPs on Mawlr junkyard just feed the campzones. Making progress down the 3 corridors of death is impossible with the numerous easy camping spots protecting against forward progress and the quick refreshments of troops from the 2 TSPs outside of the spawn points.
TSPs are incredibly hard to take in many instances. Such as on turbine. They tend to be easy to protect and rapid replenishments in the form of respawns with invincibility aid in the ease of protection. The aggressor actually has to take into account that a defender will respawn momentarily with temporary invincibility and know where his killer will be at. And if your assaulting tactician dies to some respawn invincibility bullshit, then tough luck. Your hard fought offensive push failed that moment, not to skill, but rather to shitty game mechanics.
edit
Oh and sneaking up on a TSP is impossible when a tactician with his all seeing eye is babysitting the point. This is a usual occurrence as well
TheExecutive
Member
Massa said:
I wish this were true. Oh and capturing and holding one TSP and winning because of it is not really what I call balanced. There needs to be at least 3 TSP accessible without special machinery on each map. If the map is too small for that it shouldnt have warzone on it.
Commish valid points.
Can you honestly say though that every time you play on KZ3 maps the same thing is happening over and over? Personally it's only two maps where the same thing happens, Pyrhus and Turbine but even then both teams have an even chance to gain all of the TSP's it's recapturing on thos emaps that makes them so difficult. You simply cannot say that you can't outright win a game as ISA or HGH on any of the maps.
On every map both teams have an equal chance at gaining TSP's therefore I still fail to understand how it's a design failure.
Even the points you made on the TSP's in reply to me constantly state "if the other team". It's not a case of the other team will get certain TSP's it's if they will get them and that is solely dependent on the teams of both sides. It has nothing to do with how the map is designed.
Can you honestly say though that every time you play on KZ3 maps the same thing is happening over and over? Personally it's only two maps where the same thing happens, Pyrhus and Turbine but even then both teams have an even chance to gain all of the TSP's it's recapturing on thos emaps that makes them so difficult. You simply cannot say that you can't outright win a game as ISA or HGH on any of the maps.
On every map both teams have an equal chance at gaining TSP's therefore I still fail to understand how it's a design failure.
Even the points you made on the TSP's in reply to me constantly state "if the other team". It's not a case of the other team will get certain TSP's it's if they will get them and that is solely dependent on the teams of both sides. It has nothing to do with how the map is designed.
TheExecutive
Member
10dollas said:
I see nothing wrong with this at all. Battles are always won by domination of the landscape, objectives should follow naturally. However, the current implimentation and limitation of the maps dont allow for a natural progression of the match. Instead, the TSP's act as you say, to limit the possibilities. A well balanced map should allow a team to regain some of the territory and fight back. Many maps in KZ3 dont allow for this and hence, its not the TSP's that suck but their implimentation that sucks. Salamun market has good TSP's because you can always sneak behind an enemy and grab a TSP so your team can fight back. Turbine, for example, doesnt allow this and if you can grab one its the bottom TSP and you get camped in there.
CouchMaster
Member
The outcome of 30 min warzone game on turbine map, Pyrrhus crater and Corinth crossing is decided in first 20-30 seconds.
TrAcEr_x90
Member
I just havent played anything other than objectives. Every damn time I play warzone with my buddy(just the two of us) I see no tacticians trying to take over spawn points, so i switch to tactician and here comes the slaughtering. I just get wrecked over and over trying to capture a point. Just seems also whenever I join warzone it just puts us on the worst team imaginable.
Dibbz said:
It's a design failure because, often, when one team gets certain TSPs, the outcome is very predictable. It has EVERYTHING to do with how the map is designed - most are designed in such a way that the people who have the TSPs have a huge advantage and it's not easy to take back the TSPs. So, if the other team has the spawns, what do you do? You either go 100% for the TSPs back, in which case you aren't doing the objectives and or you can go for the objectives, enjoying your 30 second run after you die to get back into the fight. Against good teams, it's just too frustrating and the TSPs determine the outcome too much. And I say this being on the side that is often doing the spawn camping and raping when we have the TSPs. In public games, anything goes, so it's probably less of a problem. I had a guy get on the Salamun Wasp 12 times in a row before giving up, each time me sniping him immediately. People are dumb
And let's not even get started on how uneven some of the maps are - why one team has the high ground in snowdrift and the other is funneled through narrow doorways or tunnels is beyond me. Even Wasp placement is not balanced - the ISA wasp on Salamun is farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr better than the Helghast wasp position.
DenogginizerOS
BenjaminBirdie's Thomas Jefferson
Not me. I like both Killzones for different reasons.Negaiido said:
TheExecutive said:
Yeah there's nothing really wrong with this situation in principle, but like you said and like I was attempting to say, this is just another aspect of a limitation being applied to a fluid battlefield. This limitation combined with others is just too constraining in execution. The gameflow never changes much, even though thats one of the selling points of the warzone mode. Its always this: capture that one specific TSP (no other will suffice) nearest the objective and then success.
Dibbz said:
If the TSPs were placed fairly, on balanced maps they would be fine. For example on Frozen Dam ISA have the advantage being able to get to two of the TSPs first and can get to the third equally as fast as the Helgast. The two they get right off the bat means they control S&R, S&D defence and C&H.
TSPs in themselves aren't bad but their placement or the lack off them is atrocious for almost all of the maps. Couple that with the far too quick respawn times, every class having C4, only being able to see them on the HUD as a Tactician and only Tacticians can neutralise them ends up making for a terrible game.
I see most of the arguments for all the issues are coming from people try to play competetively in clan matches and the people countering (and stupidly saying "go play K2, idiot") tend to only play in Public matches. The majority off these issues wont matter to you guys who don't take it as seriously and don't play competitvely. So what if one team can capture a TSP that dictates 2 or 3 rounds of Warzone easier than the other team, right? Well it matters to us, a lot, even more so when they have employed half assed clan features and random maps for clan games.
Facism said:
I think you'll be waiting a while for that as even though custom games are being patched in, they wont be in the next patch and when they are eventually patched in, it has been said it will only allow you to pick maps, teams, balance teams and possibly timers for rounds. You wont be able to limited classes, weapons or abilities so there is little chance you will be able to take out Exos and an even smaller chance you can take out WASPs which are permanently placed in the maps.
BrLvgThrChmstry
Banned
Massa said:
Oh, for christ fucking sake. I LOATHE/HATE/DESPISE/WOULD NUKE FROM EARTH IF I COULD -- Killzone 2. Yet, I still believe KZ3 is an inferior product. The majority of the maps are terrible in design, the new spawn system comes off as a lazy effort at trying to fix something that wasn't ENTIRELY broken, Matchmaking is a disaster -- even compared to other games. Yes, I said it.
I was an avid defender of KZ3 during it's "beta" stages, in hopes of GG not only implementing the changes needed but also delivering a great experience (something KZ2 didn't do for me). Boy, oh, boy... If you guys are willing to not only pay/play/enjoy a game that suffers from a few technical flaws and overall terrible design choices (the game runs like shit outside of Guerrilla warfare; if you can endure sub-20 framerates and lag, more power to you), no wonder shit like this is allowed to 'fly'. Hell, PS3 BLOPS is more enjoyable than this turd. Yep. I mean, it is a poor man's CoD amirite!? Lol... seriously, I'm glad people are enjoying the game -- haters be damned. But don't pass this shit off as anything more than mediocre.
(This only relates to Multiplayer; SP was actually enjoyable -- for the most part)
RyanardoDaVinci
Member
Full Recovery said:
Before playing with GAF in KZ2, I was a dedicated Tac; constantly running around the map and throwing down spawns, trying to funnel my random team of incompetents into going for the objective. Even when I'd throw the damned spawn IN the objective room, they'd still run out looking for kills.
I got tired of being a 1-man team and doing everything, so I switched to Sniper and just picked-off enemies around the objectives.
"There's no 'I', in team." They say. Well, when it comes to randoms, there ain't no "We" either . lol
Dibbz said:
Also consider that during certain objectives, one team tends to willing relinquish control of hard to recapture TSPs in order to win the objective. Assassination comes to mind here. The whole team shrinks into a ball near the homespawn.
Teams don't always have an equal chance of capturing TSPs, but even when they do there are other unequal aspects such as objective order. Good luck trying to recapture forward hard-to-take TSPs to win an Search and destroy after giving them up to win an assassination defense.
BattleMonkey
Member
The game is not Killzone 2, and no patching they do is going to make the game KZ2. If you hate the game now, then go back to KZ2 because that is obviously what you want.
Yes you do. All tacticians do is basically play capture the points the whole time. It's like we're choreographing a musical chairs game for the other players....TSPs just rotate from 1 team to the next. As soon as you capture this point, somebody else captured the other one. You leave to go get that 1 back and they're capturing the 1 you just left. It's so stupid.Massa said:
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
This is what I posted: About the map design
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26236057&postcount=4379
I got either the why keep playing? or the stop whining/bitching, go to kz3forums
Look @ this: All 8 maps my tweaks and shifting ideas
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26173939&postcount=3639
JB1981 said "I read your essay. You put more thought into map design than GG."
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26174578&postcount=3654
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26236057&postcount=4379
I got either the why keep playing? or the stop whining/bitching, go to kz3forums
Look @ this: All 8 maps my tweaks and shifting ideas
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26173939&postcount=3639
JB1981 said "I read your essay. You put more thought into map design than GG."
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26174578&postcount=3654
user friendly
Member
Bang on. Pretty much how most games go for me.mr_nothin said:
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