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[KOHIPEET]

So people freak out over MP not running at a native 1080p. Good. I have a feeling all of this could be a problem only because the SP has an IQ so good.

So from another perspective, the IQ in the MP isn't bad, the IQ in the SP is too good!

You see, it's this easy. Faith restored.

Spoiler

Seriously though. I can see them decide upon this near the end of development. I believe the MP originally was running at a native 1080p but performance was lacking, to spare work, time (time being the most crucial here) and money on optimization they've decided to use an easier, more cost-effective way to somewhat stabilise frame rate in MP. This is how I see it.

Spoiler

Also, I can't wait to see MIsterX's insider info about this. How he knew it all along.

 

[Liabe Brave]

The main issue I can see here is even if they are giving the illusion of 1080p, the interpolation algorithm does not bode well in terms of framerate. We do not know how costly it is or if the code is still in infancy stage (possibly unoptimized algorithm) that's causing performance issues. The tech indeed is amazing but it appears the trade-off they made was not enough to provide the 60 FPS experience people were looking for. Hope GG can give more insight on this issue.

Well, I doubt it's inefficiencies in this reprojection technique that's causing the low framerate. Quite the opposite: you'd create a bespoke solution like this in order to balance IQ and framerate more efficiently than with existing methods.

That said, it still didn't get them to 60fps, or even very close going by reports (I've only played singleplayer). So you're absolutely correct that given the high framerate was a design goal, they should've cut effects or player count or other corners to get there (or closer, anyway).

 

[Gskyace]

the multiplayer engine is a complete mess

*not 1080p
*frame rate all over the place
*needless reflections that probably hurt the frame rate
*low res effects
*huge amount of lod pop ins
*annoying shadow pop ins

Dice beat GG this time around, they ported a PC engine to PS4 so quickly and it looks and performs way better.

I‘ve got Pt trophy for both on PS4.
I don't want to swim in the ground.

 

[Seance]

Resolutiongate, the placebo effect at its best. Tell everyone a game is 1080p when it isn't and no one notices anything wrong. Months later it's found that (god forbid) it isn't actually the p's they were promised and of course people 'always thought something looked off'. I hope one day we'll be able to just enjoy games and appreciate them for how good they actually look, rather than going back and forth over counting pixels. The game looks great, and performs well in multiplayer which is absolutely crucial.

Good job in not reading anything. Though you should be wary of breaking the terms of service in the future.

 

[blueplancha]

I fucking knew the multiplayer looked weird, just didn't say anything because there was nothing but praise from everywhere. Glad to see I'm not crazy.

 

[Bishop89]

U guys have me all excited to play the sp. Been meaning to get around to it but the mp and other games have got in the way. I wish I could compare both modes but havnt touched sp yet. All ill say is the mp looks good but I had thought something was off and the iq wasnt as good as I expected

 

[sTaTIx]

Suddenly, Infinity Ward looks a whole lot less incompetent, for their ability to hit a (mostly) solid 1080p60 target on the PS4 in Ghosts MP.

Spoiler

The game is still garbage online, though.

I love the PS4, but anyone with a bit of tech knowledge would have known long ago that it doesn't have limitless headroom.

 

[Rainy Dog]

I was actually wondering if Killzone SF uses resolution scaling, since it worked so well for Killzone Mercenary.

I'm not mad really, since it works well and is SUCH a fascinating tech.

Yep, I feel we should take this as a wake up to start expecting dynamic resolutions as standard for most games going forward. A constant 1920x1080 frame buffer is just too expensive for both consoles. There’s so many instances where it’s a complete waste of resources (like constant vs variable bitrate A/V encoding) and a dynamic dip in resolution will be practically unnoticeable in motion unless analysing screen grabs. Not to mention most of us are playing on displays that can only resolve 300 lines of motion resolution anyway.

Techniques will get better and it’ll be very interesting seeing who can implement it most transparently in practise.

With that said, I’m disappointed that Guerilla/Sony weren’t upfront about this. No excuse, especially with all the other resolution stuff kicking off at the time of release.

 

[Septic360]

What I find strange is that this is coming to light (or being taken notice of )now.

Killzone Shadow Fall is proof that resolution doesn't matter. Why? Because its a crap game, 1080p or not.

 

[PuppetMaster]

What I find strange is that this is coming to light (or being taken notice of )now.

Killzone Shadow Fall is proof that resolution doesn't matter. Why? Because its a crap game, 1080p or not.

Killzone Shadow Fall is a fantastic game. I was surprised how good it was after I finally played it. Certainly not a 10/10 but the SP game might be the best of all the Killzone games I have played. And I have played everyone except the PSP one.

 

[andromeduck]

this doesn't really surprise me

I pretty much guessed it when they said they were reusing 3-4 old frames

there's really not many ways to do something this

 

[Discusguy]

Don't care about the rez but more pissed Sony and GG kept it hidden so long. I see some peeps are okay with being lied to. I knew MP didn't look as clean as SP but didn't say crap.

 

[darkwing]

no word yet from Sony?

 

[Daffy Duck]

It's still not that big of a deal. The GT5 servers are from a 3 and a half year old game with a sequel out.

Bravo. So just because a sequel is out lets shut down and remove all the DLC for all the old games, I mean who needs it?

What about Thief? Last I checked, Thief runs and looks far superior on the PS4 than the Xbox One.

Also, "Sony GAF" will be fine so long as the sales numbers keep going the way they are.

Have you not seen the Thief Xbox One DF thread?

 

[Impeccable]

I can only imagine Richard Leadbetter's gleeful face while he discovered this.

 

[Septic360]

Killzone Shadow Fall is a fantastic game. I was surprised how good it was after I finally played it. Certainly not a 10/10 but the SP game might be the best of all the Killzone games I have played. And I have played everyone except the PSP one.

Each to their own I guess.

The SP was horrid in my opinion, with the stand-out section only being the on-rails sequence shown off at the PS4 reveal anyway.

MP was uninspired and boring with lackluster classes and coma inducing maps.

But hey, who am I to parade on your enjoyment. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

 

[mrklaw]

I wonder if there is an argument for saying this is 1080p and we weren't misled - well not entirely at least?

This isn't taking a half-res image and scaling it up, so the game is only ever rendering 960x1080. That would be misleading to call it 1080p.

But this game seems to be rendering 960x1080 of 'new' information and combining it somehow with previous frame information - taking into account various things - to produce a 1920x1080 output frame.

Now, that clearly isn't fully native 1080p, but neither is it simply scaling up a lower resolution, it is something in-between. What on earth do the devs say when asked a simple question about resolution? Do you just say 1080p, or do you say 'In single player it is 1080p, but in Multiplayer we use a combination of a 960x1080 framebuffer with temporally reprojected motion blended updates from previous frames to composite a 1080p image'?

and how does this implementation differ from temporal AA solutions which have been used in the past. This is really interesting and I'd like to see GG do a GDC talk or something on their solution


edit: and is it just me that whenever I read 'temporal reprojection' or similar terms I can't help thinking of Star Trek?

 

[Liabe Brave]

Yep, I feel we should take this as a wake up to start expecting dynamic resolutions as standard for most games going forward.

Why would you expect this? Shadow Fall does not use dynamic resolution. It uses an entirely new technique that produces better results.

A constant 1920x1080 frame buffer is just too expensive for both consoles.

That statement is literally meaningless. Resolution is not the only variable, and it would be trivially easy for developers to reduce framerate or effects to get a constant native 1080p. This is a design choice, quite independent of the hardware these days. For example, a constant 1080p60 is independently achieved by various recent games on PS4, Xbox One, and WiiU.

 

[KiraXD]

Right.

But.......... you also need a display that can accept the field rendered pentatonics in turbo mode at "at least" 960 megapixels per alternating frame. Without this, the interpolated sub-pixels are likely to up-sample to a nearest neighbor bi-linear filter instead of the more accurate tri-linear post processing mode.

ah yeah i was thinking the same thing!

 

[Always-honest]

I doubt there will be any. The game has already been out for 4 months now. What damage control needs to be done when Infamous, The Order and other anticipated games with higher resolutions are coming out. The only people who are going to hold on to this are disgruntled Xbox users who can finally find a game in the Sony arsenal that isn't exactly what it is. AC4, BF4, NBA2k14 and others remain unbothered. At this point, it's a non issue but mostly moving forward (Sony exclusives only) we will have to keep a keen eye out.

It's just mp though... SP is 1080p and pretty smooth.

 

[symphonask]

As others have stated, it's not like GG haven't been deliberately misleading in the past in regards to Shadow Fall multiplayer. Just reminds me when they stated that framerate would only drop from 60 when like a dozen grenades went off at once on screen. No one would care about the resolution had the multilayer portion ran at a consistent 60fps like they said it would.

 

[Rebel Leader]

I only played a few but it did look off. Just couldn't say why/how.

 

[ElTorro]

I wonder if there is an argument for saying this is 1080p and we weren't misled - well not entirely at least?

There might be enough of an argument to make me feel uncomfortable in calling them liars. The situation is complex enough to forgive the oversimplified statements they gave in short interviews. You can't really explain that in one sentence without confusing people.

In addition, the multiplayer's performance seems a bit rushed in general, so maybe the decision to go with that technique was a late one (even though the implementation might haven been prepared in advance as one of several alternatives).

Nevertheless, saying that the multiplayer uses some sort of smart rendering technique could have been at least mentioned in 1-2 sentences, especially since they talked quite a bit about the tech in their game. Maybe they even did tell Leadbetter during his visit, but for some odd reason he didn't report it. A lot of people say that "nobody cares" about such topics, but I'd say they underestimate the number of people that are at least mildly interested in the tech behind the games.

 

[fatgamecat]

I don't mind the visual effect at all, but it would have been nice if the devs were more up front about it. It would have been better if they said nothing in regard to multiplayer resolution rather than saying "1080p native" which is misleading at best.

 

[darkwing]

I guess from now on, we should be skeptical when Sony says it's a 1080p or 60fps game but what about games like Ground Zeros

 

[Colbert]

I wonder if there is an argument for saying this is 1080p and we weren't misled - well not entirely at least?

This isn't taking a half-res image and scaling it up, so the game is only ever rendering 960x1080. That would be misleading to call it 1080p.

But this game seems to be rendering 960x1080 of 'new' information and combining it somehow with previous frame information - taking into account various things - to produce a 1920x1080 output frame.

Now, that clearly isn't fully native 1080p, but neither is it simply scaling up a lower resolution, it is something in-between. What on earth do the devs say when asked a simple question about resolution? Do you just say 1080p, or do you say 'In single player it is 1080p, but in Multiplayer we use a combination of a 960x1080 framebuffer with temporally reprojected motion blended updates from previous frames to composite a 1080p image'?

and how does this implementation differ from temporal AA solutions which have been used in the past. This is really interesting and I'd like to see GG do a GDC talk or something on their solution


edit: and is it just me that whenever I read 'temporal reprojection' or similar terms I can't help thinking of Star Trek?

There is a name for this type of output 1080i. They had the chance to say that instead of 1080p.

 

[H4r4kiri]

The best thing about this stuff is . Nobody noticed !!! Nobody fucking noticed it !!1

What does it tell ?
It doesnt fucking matter to our eyes. !!

Everybody was stunned by the graphics and said they were state of the art. So we learn resolution is not the most important thing.

 

[mrklaw]

There is a name for this type of output 1080i. They had the chance to say that instead of 1080p.

except it isn't simply 1080i either. Ignoring the part where its interlaced the other direction, the fact that they seem to be using motion/temporal projection to calculate how to blend the previous frame rather than simply merging them means it is a lot more computationally expensive.

 

[UnrealEck]

For example, a constant 1080p60 is independently achieved by various recent games on PS4, Xbox One, and WiiU.

They're rarely actually 60 FPS though. At least from what I've seen.

 

[darkwing]

The best thing about this stuff is . Nobody noticed !!! Nobody fucking noticed it !!1

What does it tell ?
It doesnt fucking matter to our eyes. !!

Everybody was stunned by the graphics and said they were state of the art. So we learn resolution is not the most important thing.

not really, people were saying the MP looks a bit weird compared to the SP, this just confirms it but Sony lied when they said the MP was 1080p

 

[HORRORSHØW]

I guess from now on, we should be skeptical when Sony says it's a 1080p or 60fps game but what about games like Ground Zeros

i feel like we should be skeptical. period. regardless of who's behind the game.

 

[Rainy Dog]

Why would you expect this? Shadow Fall does not use dynamic resolution. It uses an entirely new technique that produces better results.

By 'dynamic', I just meant techniques along the lines of what KZ:SF MP uses. I think it'll be common place eventually.

 

[madmackem]

not really, people were saying the MP looks a bit weird compared to the SP, this just confirms it but Sony lied when they said the MP was 1080p

How do you know sony even knew about this, a lot of reaching going on let's just wait and see what gg say. As someone who's put 100 hours or so into the mp it still never fails to wow me how good it looks every time I boot it up.

 

[Rebel Leader]

the multiplayer engine is a complete mess

*not 1080p
*frame rate all over the place
*needless reflections that probably hurt the frame rate
*low res effects
*huge amount of lod pop ins
*annoying shadow pop ins

Dice beat GG this time around, they ported a PC engine to PS4 so quickly and it looks and performs way better.

umm.. BF has rubber banding...tons of it..
horrible net code and...
it is also not 1080p =p

So no, it doesn't preform better

 

[digoutyoursoul]

I don't care, the single player is gorgeous to look at but monotonous to play. Multiplayer is a hell of a lot more enjoyable imo.

Didn't Sony say multiplayer was 1080p native ?

 

[GorillaJu]

It's "1080p" in big fat quotes, eh. Not the end of the world. Game looks phenomenal.

 

[Ishan]

Oh look devs found the analog between a polynomial factor and a constant factor approximation . Yeah it's nearly there but not quite solving p = np and not quite an epsilon factor ... But def an improvement .... Ah well someone will do better soon enough anyways . And it's an advance in tech ppl will adopt . Gg and sony should have been more upfront about this one cause it's not "true 1080p and also cause it's pretty cool what they're doing

 

[thunder_snail]

It's actually 1080i but horizontal.

 

[Baliis]

umm.. BF has rubber banding...tons of it..
horrible net code and...
it is also not 1080p =p

So no, it doesn't preform better

So does killzone. The game has been nearly unplayable due to lag lately.

 

[Ishan]

It's actually 1080i but horizontal.

Not really they are using the past frame but also using temporal solutions so essentially they are rending as in fully calculating half and approximating the other which is different from just interlacing .

 

[Vitor711]

KZSF's MP didn't have IQ as good as the SP but I always chalked it up to the FXAA. However, not once I thought to myself 'this isn't 1080p'. It looks like 1080p.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. Now, the framerate in MP clearly didn't hold up but it was far from 'unplayable' and still provided better response than the older KZ games.

I could always tell that the MP was blurrier but I assumed they just replaced the computationally expensive AA technique used in the campaign with a blurry FXAA implementation also.

I think the lack of consistent performance is a bigger deal than the resolution though. The MP still looks pretty damned good all things considered and it's not like BF4 runs at a steady 60 on PS4 either.

 

[ElTorro]

It's actually 1080i but horizontal.

Not really because it doesn't just add the lines, but approximates the non-rendered lines from information gather during the rendering of the last frame. That's an additional step of computation and responsible for that method not being easily detectable by pixel counting.

 

[Ishan]

I mean the big question on answering if they were fully disengenious on 1080p lies in where do you draw the line on what you believe is the true output for each frame . Scaling is one solution but this is a whole together different solution which is totally in between they don't render every thing but they kind of pseudo guess at it without upscaling etc

 

[chrislowe]

The more I think about it. The more genius they are.

 

[Ishan]

The more I think about it. The more genius they are.

I agree to the extent that I def think well see more of this . It's quite smart .

 

[Bundy]

Didn't Sony say multiplayer was 1080p native ?

If I remember correctly -> Yes

 

[AwRy108]

Killzone Shadow Fall is a fantastic game. I was surprised how good it was after I finally played it. Certainly not a 10/10 but the SP game might be the best of all the Killzone games I have played. And I have played everyone except the PSP one.

Couldn't disagree more. I never play the original KZ, but, otherwise, Shadowfall had the first Killzone campaign that I struggled to slog through. Pacing was just dreadful.

KZ Mercenary had, by far, the best campaign of the franchise.

 

[benny_a]

The more I think about it. The more genius they are.

Would have been more genius had they been up front about it and not said "native 1080p" which clearly is not what is happening here.

I'm all for novel rendering that increases performance while retaining a lot of the details that higher resolution have, as the end result is important.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Not sure how to fell about this.
I am disappointed and feel cheated and misled on the other hand I've played over 100 hours and it's never bothered me and still looks great.
I see no reason for them to have lied in the first place.

 

[thunder_snail]

Not really because it doesn't just add the lines, but approximates the non-rendered lines from information gather during the rendering of the last frame. That's an additional step of computation and responsible for that method not being easily detectable by pixel counting.

Not sure but don't modern TV's do this for you when you play interlaced content?