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Killzone: Shadow Fall |OT| Nothing Stops This Rain

I only had to use the objective markers a few times so far. That forest level, when there's a big plume of smoke in the distance and your first objective is to see what happened to the team that crashed there, that's a pretty good indication of where to go. It's really not that hard to follow, I'm genuinely surprised people are having issues with this.

People get confused on how to play. Your instinct is to work your way through the shooting gallery as enemies as appear. In that level you go past/around the outside of the level to find the ploom of smoke. Then eventually get redirected back towards the start with the objectives. This game requires you to start a level and do some recon without getting spotted before you start raising hell.

It's the complete opposite of every fps today that use enemies to direct where you're going. If youre killing guys, you must be going the right way... Right?

It's not bad, its different.

.......and fuckin beautiful.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
The objective marker is a pain in the ass to see, that is true. That little orange circle so often blends into the game background.

I only had this issue once. Really surprised people are having so much difficulty seeing it. Maybe TV settings are messed up causing the colors to not blend properly?
 
That's not really fair at all. People love exploration! Everyone praised games like Deus Ex and Dishonored for having multiple paths and a variety of ways to tackle a single challenge.

There's a reason a lot of people in this thread are annoyed at Killzone's level design. It's confusing and inconsistent. It also doesn't really reward or encourage exploration and experimentation. While this is only my impression from playing the first five chapters, it seems like a lot of people agree.

It's not a backlash against open-ended level design and lack of hand holding, it's just that this game is kind of confusing.

I am not sure why people hold Deux Ex up as an example of how to do exploration right. From a gameplay perspective I suppose it was done quite well, with multiple entries and exits from each room. But the level design itself was pretty damn unconvincing. The whole game was constructed from a series of boxes and tunnels. Quite a boring futuristic world in some ways, or at least a totally unconvincing one to me.
 
Wait a minute. People are unhappy with the clarity of an "objective marker" and not unhappy with the fact that there is an objective marker?

Am I reading GAF?
 

nib95

Banned
The terrible objective marker defense force will be here in a few minutes to blame you for being a bad gamer or some shit like that.

I don't think Amir0x was defending the objective marker but instead defending open ended gameplay design where instructions and hand holding are not offered at every opportunity. Instead he finds enjoyment at the premise of even being able to get lost or having a sense of freedom, diversity and sparsity not really common in modern day shooters, but instead more akin to fps level design from the early days.
 
I'm all for exploration; what they did just doesn't work in the forest level. Whether it's because it's too early in the game, or the objectives too unclear, or the enemies used... the pacing is wrong, it's not very well considered, and sorry it felt to me like a tedious slog.

+++

Shitty level design is NOT exploration. I just played the first level of Assassins Creed IV and I gladly ran around that entire island looking for stuff.

Here is the point where I turned the game off and put it for sale on Craigslist - I was right before the final boss I believe.

I was floating up in a big gravity well, up the tower. I get to the "top" and I get stuck. I can only ascend or descend about 20 feet before I hit invisible walls and my character model starts shaking (lol). The waypoint marker is about 20m above me. I had no idea where to go or what to do. The controls were sluggish and I had very little mobility. I hovered around that tower for about 10 minutes before I finally said fuck it.
 

viveks86

Member
Wait a minute. People are unhappy with the clarity of an "objective marker" and not unhappy with the fact that there is an objective marker?

Am I reading GAF?

Indeed. I'm fascinated too. I have nothing against either opinions and am getting some popcorn ready to see how this goes down. We need more fights in here, people!
 
The terrible objective marker defense force will be here in a few minutes to blame you for being a bad gamer or some shit like that.

No, that is something we can agree with here, it is hard to see, you said it's hard to follow where to go which in mine and many others opinions it is not.
 

_Isaac

Member
I agree that the objective marker can be hard to see sometimes. It's colour needs to be brighter/more saturated.

At first, I thought you guys were crazy about the visibility of the marker and the tiny text, but yesterday I played it on my friend's smaller television, and you're right. It is sometimes hard to see. The text is especially difficult to read.
 
People get confused on how to play. Your instinct is to work your way through the shooting gallery as enemies as appear. In that level you go past/around the outside of the level to find the ploom of smoke. Then eventually get redirected back towards the start with the objectives. This game requires you to start a level and do some recon without getting spotted before you start raising hell.

It's the complete opposite of every fps today that use enemies to direct where you're going. If youre killing guys, you must be going the right way... Right?

It's not bad, its different.

.......and fuckin beautiful.

Well that's how I approach it, I'd rather have this design where I can explore myself, find different paths to do things instead of being led by the nose like Call of Duty.
 

Amir0x

Banned
The objective marker is horrendously difficult to see. They put it in the game and expect the player to use it, but made it difficult to see.

My other qualm with the game is its lack of consistency. Sometimes you can open doors, sometimes you can't. You can remove some of those energy fusion canister things, but some you can't. Sometimes you have to go up and press circle to activate something (also, whose genius idea was it to make the use button the same as the crouch button), but other times you have to use your Owl to hack.

I don't think anyone here is asking for glowing trails and over-the-top hand holding, but there's obviously something about Shadow Fall when this many people are talking about how obtuse it can be at times.

Difficult how? I never once had trouble locating it, and I'm friggin' blind. I don't even wear glasses and I have like 239772837832/32387 vision.

The second commentary is not about the nonlinearity at all, and none of my comments were discussing that. Since I am not trying to claim the game is above flaws, if there are other flaws we can address them on a case-by-case basis. For example, the circle crouch/circle use is a common and real problem.

What is not a flaw is the nonlinearity. It's so obvious where to go at all times with the press of a button, or by reading the objectives. Without a glowing map or huge glowing arrows, there is no way to make it any more explicit. Therefore, people complaining about it really only raise questions about how hard they were really trying.

I'm glad you don't. When your first reaction to people's frustrations is to insult their intelligence, I think you'd make an absolutely horrible game designer.

You guys insult your own intelligence by claiming it's difficult or obtuse. It's as easy as being able to read and see in front of you and press a single button. However, my first reaction wasn't to insult your intelligence, but to state the obvious. If you're getting lost, it says more about you than the game. It could say you're not used to nonlinear games, it could say you weren't really paying attention, it could say you're blind, it could say anything. But the game itself is ridiculously explicit.

Without it literally grabbing your hand and shoving you to the objective, there is no way to make it anymore obvious without a fucking glowing map. That anyone is finding it difficult is remarkable and says a lot about where gamers have arrived.

It's pretty odd that you are implying there are no issues with the objective marker situation.

It's not odd at all. I have eyes, I use them. Problems: zero. I have a 52" 55" screen, maybe that's the culprit for you guys?
 

scoobs

Member
Can we at least agree that the voice acting is terrible? So glad the names not red.

Oh ya, its awful. Really hope this game was such a letdown due to being a launch title and time constraints... thought 2 and 3 were MUCH better games.
 

viveks86

Member
Bam! Pow! Zap!

catfight1.gif


Unfortunately, I can't really take part in this debate since I don't get to play the game till tomorrow. But you really are taking people head on aren't you? ;)

Fun to watch!
 

KCs NOTOR1OUS

Neo Member
Does anybody know how the streaming works concerning audio output through party settings. Right now I'm host of the party and i'm streaming right now through the party and i can hear myself on my twitch channel but i can't hear my other friend in the party.

The thing is i went to his twitch channel and i can hear him and me on his just fine. I have the audio output set so people can hear the chat audio so i'm not sure if i'm doing something wrong or not?

Anybody have this problem or know what can be done about it?
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I finished it. I don't agree with Jeff at all that the last few levels are "rotten"-- honestly they are some of the coolest and they let you be really inventive with your tactics-- but there are a few major problems I have with this game.

a) it feels like stuff was majorly cut out. The plot jumps around from place to place without ever really being super...like, obvious as to what is going on.

b) the early game is really weak. The Cassandra level is horrible. It's just so dark and confusing.

It's my least favorite Killzone after KZ1, but that's just because I'm a really big KZ fan. 2 was genius, 3 was okay, Liberation is fantastic, Mercenary is fantastic. This...I dunno. Their hearts were in the right place but everything just seems designed to be maximiumly annoying.
 

MThanded

I Was There! Official L Receiver 2/12/2016
Difficult how? I never once had trouble locating it, and I'm friggin' blind. I don't even wear glasses and I have like 239772837832/32387 vision.

The second commentary is not about the nonlinearity at all, and none of my comments were discussing that. Since I am not trying to claim the game is above flaws, if there are other flaws we can address them on a case-by-case basis. For example, the circle crouch/circle use is a common and real problem.

What is not a flaw is the nonlinearity. It's so obvious where to go at all times with the press of a button, or by reading the objectives. Without a glowing map or huge glowing arrows, there is no way to make it any more explicit. Therefore, people complaining about it really only raise questions about how hard they were really trying.



You guys insult your own intelligence by claiming it's difficult or obtuse. It's as easy as being able to read and see in front of you and press a single button. However, my first reaction wasn't to insult your intelligence, but to state the obvious. If you're getting lost, it says more about you than the game. It could say you're not used to nonlinear games, it could say you weren't really paying attention, it could say you're blind, it could say anything. But the game itself is ridiculously explicit.

Without it literally grabbing your hand and shoving you to the objective, there is no way to make it anymore obvious without a fucking glowing map. That anyone is finding it difficult is remarkable and says a lot about where gamers have arrived.



It's not odd at all. I have eyes, I use them. Problems: zero. I have a 52" 55" screen, maybe that's the culprit for you guys?
I have a 50 inch plasma.

I should have gotten the 55 inch. They should put it on the back of the box as a requirement.

Ami pls

I'd let this go if multiple people in this thread did not agree with me.
 

Amir0x

Banned
catfight1.gif


Unfortunately, I can't really take part in this debate since I don't get to play the game till tomorrow. But you really are taking people head on aren't you? ;)

Fun to watch!

I don't even want to turn it into a fight or anything. I cannot even believe I am defending a Killzone game ever, everyone who knows me knows I am no friend of the series. But in this case, I feel obligated to.

People are so used to everything being spelled out for them that if, as seems to be the case for some of the detractors, they have to scan the horizon for an objective marker and they don't immediately locate it in a second or two, it's somehow a damning indictment over the game's design. That if you have to wander and actually scan your horizons and try to locate the best path for you, that suddenly the game is aimless and poorly designed.

Here is why Killzone: Shadow Fall is not poorly designed, although it's by no means perfect. There are tons of annoying quirks, but by and large this is why it works:

It's nonlinear gameplay is very often in complete service to the level of your gameplay options. It supports and accommodates many different play styles, from stealthy to distance to action. This flexibility means that my experience of playing the game may vary greatly from playthrough the playthrough. It also means I have room for experimentation, figuring out the most efficient way to tackle moments, or simply the way that provides me the most enjoyment. Ergo, some places may be more fun to snipe people, other places may be more fun to sneak in.

Killzone: Shadowfall facilitates this expertly, most of the time. Contrary to people saying it's aimless or wandering, it is extremely consistent in the way it is laid out to accommodate several different play styles. Never once have I encountered any of these problems people have said, because it wasn't hard. If I thought it were complicated I would say so. instead, it's so easy that I have come into this thread SHOCKED at some of the responses, and therefore feel compelled to defend it.

If it gets any easier than this, we'll have to revert to yet more linear slogcrawls through nonsense design that make up 98% of FPS game design. I am so glad this exists, a welcome reprieve from most FPS game design.

MTHanded said:
I'd let this go if multiple people in this thread did not agree with me.

An appeal to a majority or a minority is not a good argument. I can find people that agree with me too. That's not really worth consideration in the realm of whether our positions have merit or not.

The reason I mentioned the TV is because someone earlier said it was difficult to see on small TVs. Since I never had difficulty locating, I was trying to figure out if that might have been it. I wasn't trying to imply you should have a TV that size, but say that maybe the tracker is visible on the larger sets easily but not on the smaller ones, which would explain why I can easily locate it and others may not. Which would then still make it a problem with the game.
 

Kolgar

Member
Oh ya, its awful. Really hope this game was such a letdown due to being a launch title and time constraints... thought 2 and 3 were MUCH better games.

Agreed.

Most everything about the game is off-putting to me. I'm slogging through it today but the series seems to be on a downward trajectory.

I hate the marker and also agree there's little point to exploration. This is strictly a paint-by-the-numbers affair, and even as a vocal fan of the game since the original Killzone, I'll be glad when it's over.
 

viveks86

Member
I have a 50 inch plasma.

I should have gotten the 55 inch. They should put it on the back of the box as a requirement.

Ami pls

I'd let this go if multiple people in this thread did not agree with me.

LOL. Or there should be a sticker on the TV when you buy it. "55 inch. 1080p Full HD. Killzone ready" :D
 

Amir0x

Banned
LOL. Or there should be a sticker on the TV when you buy it. "55 inch. 1080p Full HD. Killzone ready" :D

As per my post, the reason I mentioned the TV is because someone earlier said it was difficult to see on small TVs. Since I never had difficulty locating, I was trying to figure out if that might have been it. I wasn't trying to imply you should have a TV that size, but say that maybe the tracker is visible on the larger sets easily but not on the smaller ones, which would explain why I can easily locate it and others may not. Which would then still make it a problem with the game. Sometimes it's not possible to be cognizant of problems like that due to such issues.
 

viveks86

Member
As per my post, the reason I mentioned the TV is because someone earlier said it was difficult to see on small TVs. Since I never had difficulty locating, I was trying to figure out if that might have been it. I wasn't trying to imply you should have a TV that size, but say that maybe the tracker is visible on the larger sets easily but not on the smaller ones, which would explain why I can easily locate it and others may not. Which would then still make it a problem with the game. Sometimes it's not possible to be cognizant of problems like that due to such issues.

I see. I've got a 46 inch. Will see how it goes. Just to be clear, I'm just having fun here, since I have nothing meaningful to contribute until tomorrow. :D

I'm really excited about this game! I don't even care if the marker is broken or difficult to see. I'd rather have it broken so that I'm not tempted to use it!
 
I've been finding the multiplayer disappointing. It doesn't feel right, it doesn't feel like the old Killzone games, not even like Mercenary.

Plus it doesn't help that the menu text is ridiculously small.
 
b) the early game is really weak. The Cassandra level is horrible. It's just so dark and confusing.

Man, I totally disagree. That level might be my favorite. It looks fantastic, there are alternate routes to progress through the level, they don't over explain your objectives in regards to
the power node key puzzle things (especially when it comes to the rooms with collectables in them)
, the
anti-grav
sections are so easy to navigate once you realize that pressing square stops you completely, the OWL looks amazing in the level, the atmosphere is fantastic due in part to the soundtrack, and the enemy encounters are well paced and make for shotgun magnificence. There are some logic inconsistencies with
the sun burning enemies through the windows even though Lucas lives through being ejected at the end of the level
but whatever.

The split opinions on this game are nuts.
 
oh my god the last mission
is exactly an example of why you don't put forced stealth sections in action games

I want to rip my hair out
 

Thorgi

Member
I finished it. I don't agree with Jeff at all that the last few levels are "rotten"-- honestly they are some of the coolest and they let you be really inventive with your tactics-- but there are a few major problems I have with this game.

a) it feels like stuff was majorly cut out. The plot jumps around from place to place without ever really being super...like, obvious as to what is going on.

b) the early game is really weak. The Cassandra level is horrible. It's just so dark and confusing.

It's my least favorite Killzone after KZ1, but that's just because I'm a really big KZ fan. 2 was genius, 3 was okay, Liberation is fantastic, Mercenary is fantastic. This...I dunno. Their hearts were in the right place but everything just seems designed to be maximiumly annoying.

People seem to really love Mercenary, huh? I might have to pick that up after the price drops or the game goes onto Plus. That or pick it up during a dry spell.

As for Shadow Fall, so far my favorite bits have been the multiplayer. The levels are nice, and the shooting feels just right. Haven't played a ton of single player (just stopped right after the train level), but it's been decent so far. Much better than Ghosts.
 

Rsinart

Member
Finished the story last night. While I enjoyed most of it, I didn't really have a clue as to what was going on. Story just didn't do it for me. Game looks great. I think the forest level is the best of the bunch and would of liked more of them. The first Cassandra mission I also enjoyed. Bit slow but reminded me of Dead Space. I think I agree with the scores it was given even if overall I did enjoy it.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Big time - not a problem in any other level so far, but in the forest level which has so much going on visually, it's almost invisible.

This is another thing that people often ignore when bringing up Doom vs Call of Duty comparisons. The visuals in shooters of yore were rather simple and there were just about zero situations where it was even remotely difficult to make out an enemy. In modern games, there is just so much shit going on. Debris, foliage, smoke, crazy particle effects, sun beams, raspberry jam on the screen, "dirty visor" effect, motion blur, etc. that even in simple level layouts enemies become difficult to make out, as well as meaningful objects in the environment. Chapter 4 in Shadow Fall was a prime example of this. I knew I was getting shot at, but often I found I couldn't recognize enemies very much at all unless I kept using my sonar to get the Batvision effect going. Maybe I just suck, I dunno.
 

viveks86

Member
This is another thing that people often ignore when bringing up Doom vs Call of Duty comparisons. The visuals in shooters of yore were rather simple and there were just about zero situations where it was even remotely difficult to make out an enemy. In modern games, there just so much shit going on. Debris, foliage, smoke, crazy particle effects, sun beams, raspberry jam on the screen, "dirty visor" effect, etc. that even in simple level layouts enemies become difficult to make out, as well as meaningful objects in the environment. Chapter 4 in Shadow Fall was a prime example of this. I knew I was getting shot at, but often I found I couldn't recognize enemies very much at all unless I kept using my sonar to get the Batvision effect going. Maybe I just suck, I dunno.

Man! You had such a thought provoking point to make but you weakened it with your ending. Now I don't know if it applies to this game or not. :/
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Man! You had such a thought provoking point to make but you weakened it with your ending. Now I don't know if it applies to this game or not. :/

I think my point stands, but obviously there are some people in here who don't seem to be affected by busy visuals, so maybe it just comes down to whether or not you can adapt.
 
Need assistance at the
second space station
.

I am playing on hard, and
cannot get past the section where you are holding off waves of Helgahn... when they are setting up shields, and troops with mini-guns, personal shields, etc are advancing towards you (and a handful of fellow troops). There is a point at which a drop ship comes in, along with 3 or 4 drones... Whenever that happens all the friendly troops manage to get killed, along with the defensive turrets that are set up. I end up in a 1 vs 10 fight that I simply cannot get past.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I too was stuck at this part forever.
once the drop ship shows up you can hop in the turret of the bomber behind you on the top level of the cat walks. Lucas actually calls this out but it always got buried in gunfire audio. Once you are in there it should be pretty easy
 

Scrabble

Member
Wait a minute. People are unhappy with the clarity of an "objective marker" and not unhappy with the fact that there is an objective marker?

Am I reading GAF?

People say they want one thing; non linearity, freedom, no hand holding, etc. And then when they are given that they complain about how confusing it is, and how they need objective markers and for someone to hold their hand and point them in the right direction.
 

FroJay

Banned
oh my god the last mission
is exactly an example of why you don't put forced stealth sections in action games

I want to rip my hair out

Agreed! I was frustrated and had to watch a walkthrough video to see what to do. I finally got through it and am moving on to the multi.
 

spwolf

Member
People say they want one thing; non linearity, freedom, no hand holding, etc. And then when they are given that they complain about how confusing it is, and how they need objective markers and for someone to hold their hand and point them in the right direction.

i always said that - that open world games are hard for me, since i dont play these games usually... but i know how people say they want open world and then they dont :).

For instance, there was one journalist i watched over twich, nice dude, and he mentioned something like "here, i dont know what should I do now - and in these games, i should immediately know what to do next".

So people think they want open world games but in reality all they want is linear hand holding on the rails gameplay.
 
How do the map selection executions work? Guy was about to execute me as my team lost but I actually grabbed his hand and knifed him instead, lol.
 
Just finished, there's no spoiler thread up yet right?

Pros:
-Pretty great level design, used verticality really well and were pretty open for the most part
-Jaw-droppingly gorgeous
--Fantastic atmosphere
-Surprisingly great soundtrack, especially during the Helghast levels
-Great shooting
-Nice non-normal gameplay aspects (OWL, adrenaline packs)
-Terrific sound design

Cons:
-
Characters coming back from the dead/surviving stuff they shouldn't have
-Last few levels in general were just lackluster compared to the earlier ones
-Disappointing story
-Dialog volume was much too low imo, without subtitles I really had to concentrate to hear at some points

Overall better than I was expecting I think, by the start of the sixth level I championed it as one of the best FPS campaigns in years, it's still great, but...
 
I'm reading the thread and while I see people's points, I'm enjoying the hell out of this game. Killzone 2 will probably still be my favorite in the end, I was a fan of the weighted controls. I do however appreciate the more colorful levels, change of pace between gunning and objectives, and the abundant amount of collectibles.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
So whats this game(if you could compare it) like
I got the impression its more Crysis(one-man-army) instead of Killzones usual style.
 
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