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[Cerebral Assassin]

Shirtless and all oiled up! Yummmmmm!!!

That's where you are going with this, right?

Nah, I was more thinking you just don't trust yourself around "feminine men" & trying to work out why.

 

[ZephyrFate]

But why would you hold slurs against gays at the same level as those against blacks?

Two different people. All these proposed situations of a white person calling Kobe a nigger/darkie/coon/whatever else people can think of are purely hypothetical and do nothing but bring out GAF stupidity.

Slurs against minorities are equivalent in that they are harmful to everyone and a sign of social decay.

How about instead of differentiating between gays and blacks we combine them as a force against bigotry? I don't get why there needs to be a difference.

 

[ChocolateCupcakes]

Because they're both humans and each deserve the same level of respect? I don't respect black people any more or less than white people or anyone else. And I expect the same respect in return. I also believe in treating DISRESPECT for people the same way.

Put it like this. If Dirk Nowitzki called LZ Granderson a "faggot" while he was doing a story on the Mavs you wouldn't suspend him. But if he called him a "nigger" you would. That's a double standard. You shouldn't compartmentalize group suffering like that. All slurs like that are equal.

No they aren't its subjective. You know other groups suffering is terrible but theres no doubt that you are more concerned with one over the other.

 

[Souldriver]

You can do the research yourself. I ask you this though, for what reason would someone choose to be a homosexual as opposed to heterosexual?

To piss him off.

 

[FallingEdge]

Despite their season, I still think that the Lakers will win the finals but the Bulls are looking strong as well. Pretty excited for the post season.

 

[Margalis]

lol, yeah....not LITERALLY, but it's still referring to Jewish stereotypes. "Gay/Fag" used in Kobe's context isn't referring to homosexuals at all.

You are REALLY reaching here. So now "Jew" is never a generic insult and always somehow relates to being Jewish in some roundabout way but the same is not true for "fag?" Really? It seems to me you just want to special-case "fag" for no real reason that makes sense.

I've heard plenty of people in online games use the term "Jew" in a way that doesn't obviously refer to having a big nose or being cheap or whatever the fuck. To draw a distinction between that and the use of "fag" does not seem particularly honest. One could easily claim that "Jew" was a generic insult.

I'm sure there are people who use the term "Jew" without literally meaning that the person is a Jew, or meaning to specifically insult Jews. However I'm also sure that the majority of those people have little respect for Jews.

 

[KJTB]

To piss him off.

Must be! Let's disregard the fact that scientific studies have proven that a child conforms to a sexual orientation by the age of 5. I'm sure five year olds are totally running around saying "screw the vagina, I'm going to choose to be gay because I want to piss off the christians and republicans!"

 

[Shin Dynamo X]

"The origins of homosexuality
Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there
is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of
parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a
person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear
that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex
interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual
orientation is therefore not a choice, though sexual behaviour clearly is. Thus
LGB people have exactly the same rights and responsibilities concerning the
expression of their sexuality as heterosexual people. However, until the
beginning of more liberal social attitudes to homosexuality in the past two
decades, prejudice and discrimination against homosexuality induced
considerable embarrassment and shame in many LGB people and did little to
encourage them to lead sex lives that are respectful of themselves and others.
We return to the stability of LGB partnerships below. "

^ Royal College of Psychiatrists: Submission to the Church of England’s Listening Exercise on Human Sexuality.

What the heck is this? So you expect me to consider a quote as the credible gospel? Uh, no.

And what would you say about gays that convert to heterosexuality? Were they still born that way?? Let's not assume that all gays remain gay. People have changed on both sides.

 

[Gaborn]

No they aren't its subjective. You know other groups suffering is terrible but theres no doubt that you are more concerned with one over the other.

What? Hell fucking no. I'd suspend any player who called someone a "nigger" as well or any other slur.

 

[Cubsfan23]

lol. NOBODY is saying that faggot isn't offensive to people. Let's get real here he said it under his breath, the ref didnt hear him obviously. He was sitting in his personal space and a camera zoomed in and you can lip read him. Under these conditions, you should just get by with an apology

If he was sitting down with a reporter or whatever and said it, then yes let's roast him, because in that environment you are obviously trying to direct hate to a certain group of people.


It's sexual orientation (insulting you) vs a person's heritage (insulting your whole family bloodline). Racial Slurs are MORE offensive and always will be. There will always be MORE LEEWAY with somebody using faggot vs any racial slur.

Hell I can't even remember the last time i said fag or faggot and never in my life used it towards another person so it's not a defense force post. Just find it absurd that it is being equated to a person's race.




Quit putting the 2 on the same level. STOP

 

[spindashing]

Because they're both humans and each deserve the same level of respect? I don't respect black people any more or less than white people or anyone else. And I expect the same respect in return. I also believe in treating DISRESPECT for people the same way.

Put it like this. If Dirk Nowitzki called LZ Granderson a "faggot" while he was doing a story on the Mavs you wouldn't suspend him. But if he called him a "nigger" you would. That's a double standard. You shouldn't compartmentalize group suffering like that. All slurs like that are equal.

I agree that the two groups (as well as all races/sexual orientations) deserve the same level of respect and I too respect everyone equally. I just find it weird that whenever the plights of the gay community are discussed, black people somehow find their way as a topic of the conversation.

I don't agree that the slurs are completely equal. They both have differing histories/etc. I'm not implying one word is stronger than the other; the only means that I view the two words as in the same tier is that they both put down their respective group of people.

If Kobe called Dirk Nowitzki a "nigger", would anything have happened?

Edit: Regardless of how he said it, cubsfan -- he still said it. It's still a problem.

 

[Joates]

What the heck is this? So you expect me to consider a quote as the credible gospel? Uh, no.

Selectively replying to posts. Youll fit in perfectly here.

 

[kehs]

You can do the research yourself. I ask you this though, for what reason would someone choose to be a homosexual as opposed to heterosexual?

Is it hard to believe people can overcome genetics for desires?

We're not animals.

 

[coldvein]

Slurs against minorities are equivalent in that they are harmful to everyone and a sign of social decay.

you really believe this? this is bullshit.

 

[Kinitari]

No they aren't its subjective. You know other groups suffering is terrible but theres no doubt that you are more concerned with one over the other.

The reason people are bringing up slurs isn't to... I don't know, grade the level of suffering of the people these slurs are aimed at - and the ones who have the highest grade can be the most offended. These are just -similar- slurs. Similar in that they target a minority group and are words intended to offend. How about Chink? How about Kike? I can't think of many other words, but if you can think of any other similar words, they would suffice as well for the example.

Using any of these words as an insult, EVEN in a context that isn't associated with minority group, you are still going to offend the minority group. Is that difficult thing to grasp?

 

[ChocolateCupcakes]

What? Hell fucking no. I'd suspend any player who called someone a "nigger" as well or any other slur.

Thats something more general that doesn't really affect you that personally. Deep down one means more to you than the other.

 

[Souldriver]

What the heck is this? So you expect me to consider a quote as the credible gospel? Uh, no.

In all honesty, we all know, you yourself included, that you don't want to consider any kind of proof at all, otherwise you would've found it already and wouldn't be in this thread stirring the pot.

"I don't acknowledge any proof because it would undermine my already horrendous argument."

 

[KJTB]

Is it hard to believe people can overcome genetics for desires?

We're not animals.

The desire is derived from the genetics.

And yes, we are animals. Don't be so conceited as to believe that we aren't.

 

[Crumpet Trumpet]

What the heck is this? So you expect me to consider a quote as the credible gospel? Uh, no.

Wanted something from Time/CNN, eh?

"Now new research offers evidence that there may indeed be a physiological basis for sexual orientation. In a study of 41 brains taken from people who died before age 60, Simon LeVay, a biologist at San Diego's Salk Institute for Biological Studies, found that one tiny region in the brain of homosexual men was more like that in women than that in heterosexual men. "Sexuality is an important part of who we are," notes LeVay, who is gay. "And now we have a specific part of the brain to look at and to study."
That specific part is found at the front of the hypothalamus in an area of the brain that is known to help regulate male sexual behavior. Within this site, LeVay looked at four different groupings of cells, technically referred to as the interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus, or INAH for short. Other researchers had already reported that INAH 2 and 3 were larger in men than in women. LeVay hypothesized that one or both of them might vary with sexual orientation as well."

And what would you say about gays that convert to heterosexuality? Were they still born that way?? Let's not assume that all gays remain gay. People have changed on both sides.

Oh, you're a joke character. Shouldn't have even wasted my time.

 

[Joates]

In all honesty, we all know, you yourself included, that you don't want any kind of proof at all, otherwise you would've found it already and wouldn't be in this thread stirring the pot.

"I don't acknowledge any proof because it would undermine my already horrendous argument."

Maybe its not even his argument though... Just one of the "flock"

 

[ChocolateCupcakes]

The reason people are bringing up slurs isn't to... I don't know, grade the level of suffering of the people these slurs are aimed at - and the ones who have the highest grade can be the most offended. These are just -similar- slurs. Similar in that they target a minority group and are words intended to offend. How about Chink? How about Kike? I can't think of many other words, but if you can think of any other similar words, they would suffice as well for the example.

Using any of these words as an insult, EVEN in a context that isn't associated with minority group, you are still going to offend the minority group. Is that difficult thing to grasp?

Of course they are similar but ZephrFate said they are equivalent and they just aren't.

Slurs against minorities are equivalent in that they are harmful to everyone and a sign of social decay.

How about instead of differentiating between gays and blacks we combine them as a force against bigotry? I don't get why there needs to be a difference.

Slurs harmful to everyone? No, just, no.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

It's sexual orientation (insulting your thoughts & personal desires) vs a person's heritage (outward appearance).

It could be seen like this.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

If there was proof, then it would be in science books and all over CNN, MSNBC, or whatever. I'm waiting for something official to prove otherwise.

There really isn't no point in this debate. Besides, the topic is all about Kobe opening his mouth anyway.

I like that people have to prove that gays are born gay to have any say on the subject, but you can just say all the stupid shit you want without having to prove any of it.

 

[Fusebox]

Sportsman says something stupid.

Hard to build rage off that...

 

[Riposte]

It's still a problem.

Everything is a problem to someone. My problem is that people think they have a god given right to not be offended or insulted(based on anything) and that in turn takes away a lot of rights.

 

[Death Dealer]

Michael Jordan > Kobe Bryant

Most pro athletes today don't seem to have much class.

 

[Kinitari]

lol. NOBODY is saying that faggot isn't offensive to people. Let's get real here he said it under his breath, the ref didnt hear him obviously. He was sitting in his personal space and a camera zoomed in and you can lip read him. Under these conditions, you should just get by with an apology

If he was sitting down with a reporter or whatever and said it, then yes let's roast him, because in that environment you are obviously trying to direct hate to a certain group of people.


It's sexual orientation (insulting you) vs a person's heritage (insulting your whole family bloodline). Racial Slurs are MORE offensive and always will be. There will always be MORE LEEWAY with somebody using faggot vs any racial slur.

Hell I can't even remember the last time i said fag or faggot and never in my life used it towards another person so it's not a defense force post. Just find it absurd that it is being equated to a person's race.




Quit putting the 2 on the same level. STOP

What? If I don't give a shit about my family, can I be more offended at the sexually oriented slur?

Seriously bro, this is ridiculous, people don't have to be offended on a scale that is predefined. If a gay black man is more offended when he's called a faggot than when he's called a nigger, is he doing it wrong?

The point isn't to... score or grade suffering, we need this to be clear. Using slurs that demean minorities, even as 'generic' slurs is offensive - to give context, we bring in the words nigger, kike, chink, and I honestly cant think of any more, but I am sure they exist - we bring in these words to say "look, these words hurt people, use them as any other insult, even aimed away from these minorities, and they still hurt these minorities when used."

If you don't care about offending a minority group with your language, that is your prerogative, but don't kid yourself.

 

[Gaborn]

I agree that the two groups (as well as all races/sexual orientations) deserve the same level of respect and I too respect everyone equally. I just find it weird that whenever the plights of the gay community are discussed, black people somehow find their way as a topic of the conversation.

I don't agree that the slurs are completely equal. They both have differing histories/etc. I'm not implying one word is stronger than the other; the only means that I view the two words as in the same tier is that they both put down their respective group of people.

If Kobe called Dirk Nowitzki a "nigger", would anything have happened?

I think it depends entirely on context. For example if two friends (of any sexual orientation) are having a friendly conversation are arguing and one called the other a "faggot" that's within the context of a friendship. Same if two people (of any race) used the word "nigger" or any other slur that in a "normal" context is patently offensive.

It's not like Kobe was engaging in friendly banter, he meant the word as a slur and it was caught on tape. If Kobe called Dirk a nigger and meant it in an offensive context he should be suspended as well though, yes.

Also, the problem I have with blacks in this discussion is that people are trying to argue that because blacks endured particular hardship that hasn't been equaled at least in US history that it gives them special status compared to any other minority such that any comparison to the type of discrimination being faced in inappropriate, and i don't think it's true.

Discrimination and prejudice isn't a matter of scale, nor can one type be worse than others. Blacks have suffered more than any other group but that suffering doesn't mean you can't make parallels in arguing another group's suffering is wrong for the same reason it was wrong for blacks to suffer it.

Thats something more general that doesn't really affect you that personally. Deep down one means more to you than the other.

I can't speak for your opinion on discrimination, please don't assume you can speak for mine. Discrimination is hateful no matter who it's against.

 

[kehs]

The desire is derived from the genetics.

And yes, we are animals. Don't be so conceited as to believe that we aren't.

Derivatives don't translate into definitives.

Call yourself an animal all you want, but if you don't even have enough esteem for yourself that you don't consider the human more than a stew of cells, keep the labeling limited to yourself.

 

[spindashing]

Everything is a problem to someone. My problem is that people think they have a god given right to not be offended or insulted(based on anything) and that in turn takes away a lot of rights.

America: Land of Opportunity. Problem is that getting these opportunities may end up being problematic.

 

[DECK'ARD]

What the heck is this? So you expect me to consider a quote as the credible gospel? Uh, no.

And what would you say about gays that convert to heterosexuality? Were they still born that way?? Let's not assume that all gays remain gay. People have changed on both sides.

Ever heard of bisexuals?

You can choose to act or not on your sexuality, but you can't choose your sexuality. And there is more and more evidence to say it's the effect of the sex hormones in the womb that determines sexuality. As that effects the region of the brain which governs sexual attraction.

Seriously, do some research and educate yourself rather than cling to very out-dated thinking.

 

[Crumpet Trumpet]

I like that people have to prove that gays are born gay to have any say on the subject, but you can just say all the stupid shit you want without having to prove any of it.

He probably thinks all gay people were molested as children

you see right through me, MR. DYNAMO!

 

[Orayn]

I am sticking to my statement. I already know how liberal NeoGaf is here. But there is no proof, simple as that.

The data is there, and it does not support your argument. You're just ignoring it, friendo. That's all right, though.

What the heck is this? So you expect me to consider a quote as the credible gospel? Uh, no.

You're right. We should be taking your quotes as gospel. Silly LIBERAL us.

And what would you say about gays that convert to heterosexuality? Were they still born that way?? Let's not assume that all gays remain gay. People have changed on both sides.

Though the :lol smiley was gone before I even got validated, I miss it more than you can imagine.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Yup, this thread was worth entering

 

[Joates]

Derivatives don't translate into definitives.

Call yourself an animal all you want, but if you don't even have enough esteem for yourself that you don't consider the human more than a stew of cells, keep the labeling limited to \
yourself.

Or you could take it from his perspective and you could lower your ego down a few notches.

Care to explain how we are so much more than animals? (high functioning ones relatively speaking).

 

[ChocolateCupcakes]

I can't speak for your opinion on discrimination, please don't assume you can speak for mine. Discrimination is hateful no matter who it's against.

I'm not saying its not hateful or that you shouldn't feel bad about it. But I understand people don't like to admit that they care about something more than another when it comes to grouping on race, religion, or sexual orientation.

 

[KJTB]

Derivatives don't translate into definitives.

Call yourself an animal all you want, but if you don't even have enough esteem for yourself that you don't consider the human more than a stew of cells, keep the labeling limited to yourself.

Oh please dude, enough with the preachy bullshit. Where do those desires come from? And sure derivatives translate into definitives. If it's programmed into my taste buds to love the taste of pizza, then my love of pizza is fucking derived from the genetics of my taste buds.

I have a very high self esteem, thank you very much. However, I'm somewhat of a critical realist. I see the world for what it is. Yes, we are homo-sapiens. Yes, we are composed of cells. We are extremely advanced, so yeah we're more than just a "stew of cells", but I don't buy into dualism or anything of that nature.

 

[Gaborn]

I'm not saying its not hateful or that you shouldn't feel bad about it. But I understand people don't like to admit that they care about something more than another when it comes to grouping on race, religion, or sexual orientation.

You're wrong, but even if you were right what would your point be?

Also, nobody has ever asked a religious person for their gene that "made" them believe in their particular sect.

 

[Cubsfan23]

What? If I don't give a shit about my family, can I be more offended at the sexually oriented slur?

Seriously bro, this is ridiculous, people don't have to be offended on a scale that is predefined. If a gay black man is more offended when he's called a faggot than when he's called a nigger, is he doing it wrong?

The point isn't to... score or grade suffering, we need this to be clear. Using slurs that demean minorities, even as 'generic' slurs is offensive - to give context, we bring in the words nigger, kike, chink, and I honestly cant think of any more, but I am sure they exist - we bring in these words to say "look, these words hurt people, use them as any other insult, even aimed away from these minorities, and they still hurt these minorities when used."

If you don't care about offending a minority group with your language, that is your prerogative, but don't kid yourself.

Of course there's a scale for everything, give me a break. You also gonna say offending a person by calling a person short, is the same kind of wrong as a racial slur? Try again.

 

[lawlohwhat]

choo choo! moral outrage train comin' through!

 

[Joates]

You're wrong, but even if you were right what would your point be?

Also, nobody has ever asked a religious person for their gene that "made" them believe in their particular sect.

When did religious beliefs get thrown into the mix of choice / brainwash?

 

[Souldriver]

Besides whether it is important to a discussion, and besides the pile of evidence that's already out there, i always find it funny how people have trouble understanding the nature of sexuality.

You can at least do a sample study with yourself. Did you chose your sexuality? Do you remember the day you decided? If you wanted to, could you force yourself to be sexually aroused to another sex? When you get a boner while watching pornographic material, does it happen because of a thought process the likes of "now I'm gonna get aroused!", or is it a spontaneous psychical reaction?


It's just funny how people claim to know how other people's sexualities work, while they haven't even considered how their own sexuality works.


(This is all off-topic off course, but this whole topic is a can of worms, so why not...)

 

[spindashing]

I think it depends entirely on context. For example if two friends (of any sexual orientation) are having a friendly conversation are arguing and one called the other a "faggot" that's within the context of a friendship. Same if two people (of any race) used the word "nigger" or any other slur that in a "normal" context is patently offensive.

It's not like Kobe was engaging in friendly banter, he meant the word as a slur and it was caught on tape. If Kobe called Dirk a nigger and meant it in an offensive context he should be suspended as well though, yes.

Also, the problem I have with blacks in this discussion is that people are trying to argue that because blacks endured particular hardship that hasn't been equaled at least in US history that it gives them special status compared to any other minority such that any comparison to the type of discrimination being faced in inappropriate, and i don't think it's true.

Discrimination and prejudice isn't a matter of scale, nor can one type be worse than others. Blacks have suffered more than any other group but that suffering doesn't mean you can't make parallels in arguing another group's suffering is wrong for the same reason it was wrong for blacks to suffer it.

Context is the killer. Amongst friends, as a black male, I do let the n-word slide here and there and my friends do so as well. Of course this is harmless to us for it's nothing but friendly banter in our eyes. In the perspective of someone else listening to us fooling around, we may be seen as immature for using such a word.

Also, I won't lie. If someone was heated and called me a nigger straight to my face, regardless of the situation, I would get mad. Kobe wasn't being friendly, I agree, and he deserved what he got. I'm not nor will I ever admit that Kobe was in the right and should not have been reprimanded especially since he's a role model to a lot of people in not just North America, but the world.

Blacks did endure a particular hardship. Gays endured a particular hardship as well. This goes for all minorities such as women. You can make parallels to another group's suffering, and by all means this may make minorities stick together, but their struggles are not entirely the same.

I'm not sure, I'm just tired of seeing such a debate arise. It's eerily reminding me of what went down in the People With Skin thread. Some people get heated, then we have misinformed people spouting nonsense which doesn't help the situation any.

 

[ChocolateCupcakes]

You're wrong, but even if you were right what would your point be?
.

My point is that comparing two groups suffering is pointless and subjective. And it is. If you had a protest for equality among blacks and gay people on the same day which one would you go to?

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

What the heck is this? So you expect me to consider a quote as the credible gospel? Uh, no.

And what would you say about gays that convert to heterosexuality? Were they still born that way?? Let's not assume that all gays remain gay. People have changed on both sides.

Woah woah woah back up here.

You think being gay is a choice? Or rather, you don't think your sexual orientation to be something you're born with? Because it is.

Homosexuality isn't unique to humans, btw. It's completely natural.

 

[Kinitari]

Of course there's a scale for everything, give me a break. You also gonna say offending a person by calling a person short, is the same kind of wrong as a racial slur? Try again.

I'm going to say maybe that particular person is going to be more offended if you call him short than if you called him, I don't know, a kike or something. Even if he was jewish. And he is allowed to be offended in any way he sees fit. Who defines what is more offensive? Where can I see this chart, this list so I know at what level to be offended in the future?

Or is this one of those common sense things!

 

[btkadams]

My point is that comparing two groups suffering is pointless and subjective. And it is. If you had a protest for equality among blacks and gay people on the same day which one would you go to?

are you trying to belittle a minority's struggle for equality? what the fuck dude.

 

[Margalis]

I'd rather then called a racial slur than short personally.

 

[Joates]

What the heck is this? So you expect me to consider a quote as the credible gospel? Uh, no.

And what would you say about gays that convert to heterosexuality? Were they still born that way?? Let's not assume that all gays remain gay. People have changed on both sides.

And how many of these "converts" do you know?

 

[Gaborn]

When did religious beliefs get thrown into the mix of choice / brainwash?

I guess I'm more directing that point to Shin, but since Cupcakes brought it up... No one would even think of questioning a person's religiosity, and their right to freedom of religion and religious thought. But it's considered a serious argument by some that people have not found a single gene that controls sexual orientation (even though there is certainly a strong genetic component at work)

My point is that comparing two groups suffering is pointless and subjective. And it is. If you had a protest for equality among blacks and gay people on the same day which one would you go to?

Where is anyone comparing groups suffering? All people are saying is that "faggot is wrong for the same reason nigger is wrong: They're slurs."

Trying to make that into some "comparison of suffering" is missing the point.