Support NeoGAF

[EricHasNoPull]

Hey "Dead Man" is "Numble" your alt Gaf account?

I'm on to you buddy! Muahahahah!

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I don't care if you use the word, I'm trying to get an idea of what this line is that to you makes the use okay or not okay.

Obviously, if I don't use the word at all, I don't think it's a good word to use at all.

In other breaking news:

2+2=4

Come on...you can figure these things out on your own.

 

[btkadams]

And why is that? Judging from the reactions in this thread it seems that intent is not important at all--just the fact that Kobe spoke out the word is more than enough for people to vilify him. If we throw out intent from the equation and see all events of derogatory words being spoken out as one and the same (in that they all must be objected to and vilified), how come in one case a lot more leeway can be given and not the others?

i'm pretty sure the whole queen thing could also mean they're women, which could be offensive to gay men or women in general. i don't think it's really as obvious as saying faggot.

 

[Dead Man]

Hey "Dead Man" is "Numble" your alt Gaf account?

I'm on to you buddy! Muahahahah!

:lol If you had seem some of the disagreements I have had with numble on occasion you would not say that. Nothing major, but certainly, it would be some serious multiple personality issues.

Obviously, if I don't use the word at all, I don't think it's a good word to use at all.

In other breaking news:

2+2=4

Come on...you can figure these things out on your own.

You said:

I think there's a big difference in calling a person you know identifies themselves as a homosexual a faggot out of anger, and calling a non-homosexual a faggot out of frustration.

Both are ignorant, but there are different degrees of harm based on the target.

I'm just trying to qualify your statements., If you don't want to acknowledge them, fine. I am just trying to clarify WHY and WHEN these differing degrees of harm occur. Is it only professional athletes that get a pass, or people who only use them at straight people, or what?

 

[Gaborn]

And why is that? Judging from the reactions in this thread it seems that intent is not important at all--just the fact that Kobe spoke out the word is more than enough for people to vilify him. If we throw out intent from the equation and see all events of derogatory words being spoken out as one and the same (in that they all must be objected to and vilified), how come in one case a lot more leeway can be given and not the others?

Well first "queen" is NOT as derrogatory as "faggot" by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. But second targeting an individual makes people empathize with that person and remember times when we may have been referred to as "faggots" ourselves. It's the same way a black person reacts to an individual being referred to as a "nigger" rather than seeing the word out there without calling anyone specific that term.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Maybe he was just referring to the west country delicacy?

Those are some mighty saucy faggot balls Mr. Brain's got there.

 

[SmokyDave]

A slur is not a slur if it comes from the mouth of a talented sportsman or musician.

Depending on the race of the sportsman or musician, obviously.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

People. Phobia means an extreme or irrational fear of or AVERSION to something.

Aversion:
• a strong dislike or disinclination

This means that homophobia would fall under the extreme aversion definition.

But Greek words are used for clarity or something!

So...you are saying that Kobe's slur was representative of an AVERSION to the clearly-homosexual conduct he was witnessing on the basketball court?

Of course not. So the point stands. The word is inappropriate.

You can have a word that is a slur, or have conduct that is offensive to homosexuals, and not have to lazily label it as homophobia.

of my best friends are gay and they explained this to me!

You know what? FUCK YOU. Those are my friends and colleagues, some of them for many years, and I'm not going to stand around and let you minimize that relationship because you are trying to "win" some internet argument, you fucking asshole. FUCK YOU.

If I get banned for saying FUCK YOU, it's worth it. FUCK YOU.

You are probably some young dude who thinks you are cool, and thinks that straight people can't talk about gay issues honestly. Well, you're fucking wrong. When I was coming up in my business, it was the early-90s and I was going to my gay friends' fucking FUNERALS while you were probably in middle school.

I talk honestly with my friends, gay and straight. If you have to resort to shit like that, FUCK OFF.

 

[travisbickle]

I was commenting on the use of the word "legitimate" when talking about a fear of the gay!

 

[Dead Man]

You know what? FUCK YOU. Those are my friends and colleagues, some of them for many years, and I'm not going to stand around and let you minimize that relationship because you are trying to "win" some internet argument, you fucking asshole. FUCK YOU.

If I get banned for saying FUCK YOU, it's worth it. FUCK YOU.

You are probably some young dude who thinks you are cool, and thinks that straight people can't talk about gay issues honestly. Well, you're fucking wrong. When I was coming up in my business, it was the early-90s and I was going to my gay friends' fucking FUNERALS while you were probably in middle school.

I talk honestly with my friends, gay and straight. If you have to resort to shit like that, FUCK OFF.

Some people are such delicate flowers about words...

Edit: Sorry if that offends you, but I'm trying (probably poorly) to make a point.

 

[Kintaro]

Well first "queen" is NOT as derrogatory as "faggot" by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. But second targeting an individual makes people empathize with that person and remember times when we may have been referred to as "faggots" ourselves. It's the same way a black person reacts to an individual being referred to as a "nigger" rather than seeing the word out there without calling anyone specific that term.

That is a...real thin line in my opinion. For example, spray paint "nigger" and "faggot" on a wall. You're not targeting an individual, however depending on who walks by and their sensitivity to the word, many people could find it insulting and offensive. Would not that action then be seen as distasteful?

Also, in the dictionary, "Queen" has a definition of, among other things...

Slang: Disparaging and Offensive .
a. a male homosexual, especially one who is flamboyantly campy.
b. drag queen.

I think we all know what Shaq meant by the insult.

I brought that up not to point a finger at Shaq so many years after the fact, but really to gauge the meter here. Was it just the word Kobe used? The way it was used? The tone? Etc. Would it have been different if he said "fucking Queen!"? I don't know.

Either way, I don't have a horse in this race. As a black man, I've been degraded by words in the past until I realize that they have no power of me as a man. That was the end of that time in my life come to think about it...

 

[dream]

Shaq meant the Kings play like girls.

 

[SuperBonk]

i'm pretty sure the whole queen thing could also mean they're women, which could be offensive to gay men or women in general. i don't think it's really as obvious as saying faggot.

What? So that's less of an issue because the group of people the comment is dehumanizing is ambiguous?

I personally find the "Sacramento queens" comment to be more offensive as it seems like a much more direct attack on sexuality and promotes homophobic behavior than the word "fag." I know I'm in no position to decide what gay people should and shouldn't be offended by, but that's at least how I see it.

 

[EricHasNoPull]

:lol If you had seem some of the disagreements I have had with numble on occasion you would not say that. Nothing major, but certainly, it would be some serious multiple personality issues.

Alright alright, I'll buy it this time but...

 

[Dead Man]

Alright alright, I'll buy it this time but...

 

[Pristine_Condition]

:
I'm just trying to qualify your statements.,

Why?

If you don't want to acknowledge them, fine. I am just trying to clarify WHY and WHEN these differing degrees of harm occur. Is it only professional athletes that get a pass, or people who only use them at straight people, or what?

What do you mean "If I don't want to acknowledge them?" Go back and read my posts. I'm extremely clear.

Wait, so you honestly are oblivious to the fact that calling an actual homosexual a faggot out of anger is more hurtful than calling a non-homosexual the same?

No you aren't. You are being deliberately obtuse. Your false question about athletes getting a pass, which has never been my argument, proves this.

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish?

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Some people are such delicate flowers about words...

Edit: Sorry if that offends you, but I'm trying (probably poorly) to make a point.

That was not directed at you, Dead Man. I'm not upset with you at all.

 

[Dude Abides]

So...you are saying that Kobe's slur was representative of an AVERSION to the clearly-homosexual conduct he was witnessing on the basketball court.

No, I'm making fun of your stupid statement that Greek and Latin words are used "for clarity."

As for Kobe, he was expressing his aversion to the ref by calling him a gay slur. Everyone who's not an idiot understands that this implies an aversion to gay people, but I'm not surprised that you have difficulty grasping it.

You know what? FUCK YOU. Those are my friends and colleagues, some of them for many years, and I'm not going to stand around and let you minimize that relationship because you are trying to "win" some internet argument, you fucking asshole. FUCK YOU.

If I get banned for saying FUCK YOU, it's worth it. FUCK YOU.

You are probably some young dude who thinks you are cool, and thinks that straight people can't talk about gay issues honestly. Well, you're fucking wrong. When I was coming up in my business, it was the early-90s and I was going to my gay friends' fucking FUNERALS while you were probably in middle school.

I talk honestly with my friends, gay and straight. If you have to resort to shit like that, FUCK OFF.

I"m probably older than you are, and I probably know more gay people, and more closely, than you do. To be honest, you sound like a hyper-sensitive drama queen faggot. I'm allowed to say it because I know gay people and I'm pretty sure they'd be cool with it.

 

[SuperBonk]

Either way, I don't have a horse in this race. As a black man, I've been degraded by words in the past until I realize that they have no power of me as a man. That was the end of that time in my life come to think about it...

As I said before and as hard as it may be, I believe this is the right path to take and I respect you for doing it.

 

[Speevy]

No matter how many times people tell me about the competitive nature of athletes, I still say I could never get that angry if I made that much money for playing a game.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I"m probably older than you are, and I probably know more gay people, and more closely, than you do. To be honest, you sound like a hyper-sensitive drama queen faggot. I'm allowed to say it because I know gay people and I'm pretty sure they'd be cool with it.

Whatever. You win. You win at the internet.

Do continue your campaign to cleanse the internet of any discussion, any difference of opinion, no matter how minor, that you find conflicting with yours.

Use whatever means are necessary to "win." No matter how crude, rude, or disgusting. Spit on some graves, while you're at it.

Because it is soooooo important that you win. And it's so important that you get all the bad people like me to leave your thread, so you don't have to hear their "dangerous" opinions.

Maybe I am a "hyper-sensitive drama queen faggot." But at least I'm not you.

 

[Dreohboy]

Please go do that and get back to us on how it works out

If he did it in the context that Kobe did it, nothing would happen other than that person would look at him weird.

If a white female bumped into him/her (don't know your gender) and he yelled "fuckin' Nig..." she'd probably think "WTF"?

Context people.

I don't condone Kobe using the word, and I would hope that he's learned not to use it again, but I don't agree with a 100k fine for him saying it. Sorry. That just seems excessive to me considering he wasn't using it as an insult to an actual gay man.

Now, if the ref is gay, Kobe knows he's gay, and then chose to use the word as a hateful word to a gay person...his hand should be slapped hard.

 

[ZephyrFate]

wow guys, get your panties out of your asses and CALM DOWN

 

[mavs]

Whatever. You win. You win at the internet.

Do continue your campaign to cleanse the internet of any discussion, any difference of opinion, no matter how minor, that you find conflicting with yours.

Use whatever means are necessary to "win." No matter how crude, rude, or disgusting. Spit on some graves, while you're at it.

Because it is soooooo important that you win. And it's so important that you get all the bad people like me to leave your thread, so you don't have to hear their "dangerous" opinions.

Maybe I am a "hyper-sensitive drama queen faggot." But at least I'm not you.

I sure hope you don't think you're any easier to sympathise with.

 

[lexi]

Pristine Condition's stuff

Don't pretend to be some sympathetic ally when you're not. You have said some horrible things to and about me in the past merely because of who I am, I am less inclined to believe you are a zen of tolerance and peace when the reality of the situation is you just happen to get along with your co-workers.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I sure hope you don't think you're any easier to sympathise with.

I don't want sympathy. I just wanted to tell one person off for being particularly trollish.

Go back and read everything I wrote. I'm not disagreeing that what Kobe did was wrong, or that the word he used is a slur.

I just wanted to talk about the word "homophobic" and its overuse. I think it's overused and has really lost its meaning and impact as a result. My first remark on the subject was actually kind of a flippant one. Didn't think it was that controversial. It's just a word. And it's a word that even it's proponents admit doesn't really mean what it sounds like it means anymore.

This one person disagrees with that "radical" opinion of mine, and was being a troll in arguing his point, by mocking me for saying complementary things about my gay friends in a completely separate discussion with another poster. That's all.

I said what I want to say to him. I'm done with him. He doesn't want discussion. He wants to win.

What exactly he thinks he's going to get for winning, I'm not sure. Maybe he is one of those people in the world that wants less discussion?

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Don't pretend to be some sympathetic ally when you're not. You have said some horrible things to and about me in the past merely because of who I am, I am less inclined to believe you are a zen of tolerance and peace when the reality of the situation is you just happen to get along with your co-workers.

What exactly have I said about you because of your lifestyle, lexi?

Nothing. It's bullshit. You are making things up about me.

The only time I think we've ever had any heated discussion was on the iPhone censorship deal. I never attacked your lifestyle, I attacked your argument in favor of censorship.

People who attack people on the basis of homosexuality get banned on GAF, no questions asked. GAF is extremely sensitive, and rightly so.

I wish everyone's lifestyles, races, religions, and regional affiliations were treated with the same dignity and respect here.

In light of that well-known GAF sensitivity, do you honestly expect anyone to believe that I walked away from doing whatever it is you are accusing me of, unscathed and unbanned?

Not likely.

 

[mavs]

I don't want sympathy. I just wanted to tell one person off for being particularly trollish.

Go back and read everything I wrote. I'm not disagreeing that what Kobe did was wrong, or that the word he used is a slur.

I just wanted to talk about the word "homophobic" and its overuse. I think it's overused and has really lost its meaning and impact as a result. My first remark on the subject was actually kind of a flippant one. Didn't think it was that controversial. It's just a word. And it's a word that even it's proponents admit doesn't really mean what it sounds like it means anymore.

This one person disagrees with that "radical" opinion of mine, and was being a troll in arguing his point, by mocking me for saying complementary things about my gay friends in a completely separate discussion with another poster. That's all.

I said what I want to say to him. I'm done with him. He doesn't want discussion. He wants to win.

What exactly he thinks he's going to get for winning, I'm not sure. Maybe he is one of those people in the world that wants less discussion?

I pretty much read what your posts as sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to hear that calling a 'presumably' heterosexual person a faggot is saying anything about gay people.

Personally I think this is exactly the kind of case the word homophobia is for. It's not that strong a word. I wouldn't call Kobe a bigot, or hateful (based on this incident, I don't know or care about the rest of what he's said) but faggot is a word that highlights the low-level unexamined issues with homosexuality that basically anyone can pick up just from growing up in this country. Which is where homophobia begins for a lot of people who don't get it from religious dogma.

 

[Devolution]

I pretty much read what your posts as sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to hear that calling a 'presumably' heterosexual person a faggot is saying anything about gay people.

Personally I think this is exactly the kind of case the word homophobia is for. It's not that strong a word. I wouldn't call Kobe a bigot, or hateful (based on this incident, I don't know or care about the rest of what he's said) but faggot is a word that highlights the low-level unexamined issues with homosexuality that basically anyone can pick up just from growing up in this country. Which is where homophobia begins for a lot of people who don't get it from religious dogma.

Also it says a lot about a person if they just can't admit it's a terrible word to say in any situation. But the "faggot" defense crew has been out in full force in this thread calling people "PC" or hypersensitive. It's pretty disgusting.

 

[Dead Man]

I pretty much read what your posts as sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to hear that calling a 'presumably' heterosexual person a faggot is saying anything about gay people.

Personally I think this is exactly the kind of case the word homophobia is for. It's not that strong a word. I wouldn't call Kobe a bigot, or hateful (based on this incident, I don't know or care about the rest of what he's said) but faggot is a word that highlights the low-level unexamined issues with homosexuality that basically anyone can pick up just from growing up in this country. Which is where homophobia begins for a lot of people who don't get it from religious dogma.

Exactly.

 

[lexi]

What exactly have I said about you because of your lifestyle, lexi?

Let's just say this particular aspect of GAF wasn't moderated at all at the time, and moderation even these days is non-existent at worst and lenient at best. It was fair game, and LOTS of hurtful things were said, in total disregard for me and others.

 

[mavs]

Also it says a lot about a person if they just can't admit it's a terrible word to say in any situation. But the "faggot" defense crew has been out in full force in this thread calling people "PC" or hypersensitive. It's pretty disgusting.

To be fair, this guy wasn't about that. Also he literally is PC.

 

[Devolution]

To be fair, this guy wasn't about that. Also he literally is PC.

I'll have to catch up on what Pristine was posting, I'm still reeling from earlier.

 

[Jeramii]

i'm not gay. so me going into depth of my opinion probably will be valueless to people. but i'll do my best.

honestly. i don't use the word fag. but if it was an acceptable word to use, i probably would. i am not a homophobic person, nor am i anti-gay at all. i said it growing up as a kid and never thought it meant anything but the equivalent of loser. but when i found out it was used to associate to gay people (which was when i was in middle school) i got out of the habit as quick as i could.

either way. i do find it odd that people are getting so riled up over this. i'm not a fan of kobe by any means, but the guy just said it as a word. i doubt he was calling the ref or whoever a homosexual.

not that its any consolation.... but, lots people drop racial slurs about other races when they aren't around, doesn't mean they hate the race. its just something they do. doesn't mean its acceptable.... but thats just how things are.

(not that it matters. but one of my best friends is gay, and the lovely lady i've been dating for over a year is someone who isn't the same race, or from the same country as me.)

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I pretty much read what your posts as sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to hear that calling a 'presumably' heterosexual person a faggot is saying anything about gay people.

Personally I think this is exactly the kind of case the word homophobia is for. It's not that strong a word. I wouldn't call Kobe a bigot, or hateful (based on this incident, I don't know or care about the rest of what he's said) but faggot is a word that highlights the low-level unexamined issues with homosexuality that basically anyone can pick up just from growing up in this country. Which is where homophobia begins for a lot of people who don't get it from religious dogma.

Well, I disagree, but I appreciate your ability to express your opinion clearly. You also did it by attacking my argument and not me, which I also appreciate.

You say I'm not listening. I disagree. I'm obviously not "sticking my fingers in my ears" entirely. I know that word sucks, I know that word can definitely be hateful, and I don't use it...for anybody, gay or straight.

I would just argue that, in this case with Kobe, we simply don't know the motivation. We have no fucking clue.

Occam's Razor...make the fewest new assumptions. What do we know for sure, without making any new assumptions? It could just be a stressed-out, lifelong jock who makes all his money with his body, not his brains, who never even spent a day in college expressing himself with the language of the streets. You know...simple ignorance on his part.

And, even though you think I'm "sticking my fingers in my ears" I do recognize context. It's important. It doesn't change the outcome, but it leaves room to eventually forgive ignorance when it's just ignorance, hoping the person can learn a lesson, and damn real bigotry when it's real bigotry.

Also it says a lot about a person if they just can't admit it's a terrible word to say in any situation. But the "faggot" defense crew has been out in full force in this thread calling people "PC" or hypersensitive. It's pretty disgusting.

That's not me. Maybe youve confused me with someone else?

Let's just say this particular aspect of GAF wasn't moderated at all at the time, and moderation even these days is non-existent at worst and lenient at best. It was fair game, and LOTS of hurtful things were said, in total disregard for me and others.

WTF? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

What thread was it? Link to the thread.

Don't accuse me of attacking you because of who you are, and just leave it hanging out there.

You have to back that shit up. Let people see your accusation, and make up their own minds. That's not fair at all otherwise.

I've never attacked anyone based on their lifestyle. I simply would not do that.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

And round and round we go.

You know who I feel sorry for? The Gingers.

At school many ginger kids got picked on for their hair colour yet there isn't the same outrage about that.

In England other than gingers the only group that are unprotected from insults are the gypsies but that's a whole different story.

 

[SmokyDave]

And round and round we go.

You know who I feel sorry for? The Gingers.

At school many ginger kids got picked on for their hair colour yet there isn't the same outrage about that.

In England other than gingers the only group that are unprotected from insults are the gypsies but that's a whole different story.

Add 'lanky kids', 'fat kids' and 'kids with specs' to that list.

 

[BitchTits]

either way. i do find it odd that people are getting so riled up over this. i'm not a fan of kobe by any means, but the guy just said it as a word. i doubt he was calling the ref or whoever a homosexual.

I respect the rest of your post, but this is still what some people are failing to understand. No one is saying this basketball player thought the ref was gay.

I don't think there's any use in explaining it at this point if people still don't get it. It's like the shopping cart thread last week with people saying "but the girls didn't really think an inanimate object was gay". I mean, wow - either that's being extremely obtuse or just good ol' fashion stupid.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Oh my God, 31 pages....

:O :O :O :O :O :O

 

[Saty]

Figure of speech. It's unfortunate that 'gay' and the like denote\connote both persons with a specific sexual preference and a remark of disagreement\disdain but that's the way it got to be. It by no means makes anyone who says these words in their latter use a 'homophobic' (especially that these words are also used by gay and lesbians themselves in that second manner).

If you're going to roar about that, shouldn't we also stop using 'lame' because that offends any handicapped person or anyone who doesn't have a normally functioning leg?

Also about the 'gay' slurs, how do the people who are angered by Kobe's comment treat those exact words when they are used in fictional mediums? That to me seems a much bigger concern than a genuine heated comment, if we are going to get up-in-arms over something.

 

[BitchTits]

Figure of speech.

Again, I guess that makes it OK then.

So I'm playing sports and I'm angry and I say to myself about the situation "fucking coon" - this is not in reference to any black people, it's just a word used to describe something that's crap or things one doesn't like - everyone says it. It's unfortunate that it has more than one meaning, but oh well, they're completely unconnected!

 

[Steelrain]

Look at him out there slingin those slurs!!



He's like a big kid!!!

 

[Big Baybee]

This was an entertaining read.

 

[Dead Man]

Figure of speech. It's unfortunate that 'gay' and the like denote\connote both persons with a specific sexual preference and a remark of disagreement\disdain but that's the way it got to be. It by no means makes anyone who says these words in their latter use a 'homophobic' (especially that these words are also used by gay and lesbians themselves in that second manner).

If you're going to roar about that, shouldn't we also stop using 'lame' because that offends any handicapped person or anyone who doesn't have a normally functioning leg?

Also about the 'gay' slurs, how do the people who are angered by Kobe's comment treat those exact words when they are used in fictional mediums? That to me seems a much bigger concern than a genuine heated comment, if we are going to get up-in-arms over something.

The difference that people who make your argument seem to miss is that being lame is objectively bad. It is in all ways a negative thing. Can people be awesome in spite of that? Of course. But that is how it is different to being gay, and different to gay being used as an insult. If you walked around and called everything you didn't like, Jewish, I don't think too many people would be cool with that.

Look at him out there slingin those slurs!!



He's like a big kid!!!

I don't see Brent out there!

 

[travisbickle]

The guy said, to paraphrase, "you're gay" as an insult; how is anyone defending that? If he said "you're a jew", you're Mexican", "you're black" in any of their derogatory forms there'd be uproar.

 

[BitchTits]

The guy said, to paraphrase, "you're gay" as an insult; how is anyone defending that? If he said "you're a jew", you're Mexican", "you're black" in any of their derogatory forms there'd be uproar.

He said "fucking faggot".

 

[travisbickle]

He said "fucking faggot".

Exactly, replace "faggot" with derogatory terms for Jewish, Mexican, Black, Chinese shout it at somebody and see what their reaction is.

 

[Dead Man]

He said "fucking faggot".

So... if I call you a fucking kike (assuming you're not Jewish), that's cool?

 

[SmokyDave]

So... if I call you a fucking kike (assuming you're not Jewish), that's cool?

Depends on your field goal percentage.

Spoiler

I know nothing about basketball at all.

 

[Stat Flow]

*sigh*...people and getting so offended.