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[ChrisD]

Part of me really does love the custimization runes brings. But wish I didnt focus on them so much like I did. Kinda pushed me away from the game a little

I love the Rune system
I hate the Rune system
It's so easy to get caught up in customizing them, but each change is a grind

 

[Quonny]

clg now stooping to looking for coop ai players for analysts

CLG getting into the bot game. Trying to find out the worst team comp so they can sell the info to account leveling services.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Reposting because It's an interesting discussion.

also i dunno what's hard to understand, i don't like manipulative systems that exploit players. i mean, you're gonna get a chest drop, then start thinking is it worth it to wait for the key shards or whatever or should i just buy one from the shop. maybe not you, but me and a lot of other ppl will and that's how this shit works. it's created a problem for me that they offer a quick and easy solution to that costs money. and it's gambling, so you might not even get something that's worth anything.

i don't like it, i don't think the current system is perfect or anything, but it sure didn't have this new gambling thing i don't like

i'll save final judgement/whatever for when rito releases actual information on like drop rates and crap, but my initial reaction is the usual yuck at this things

And this is the crux of it. They're dangling the chest or key parts in front of your face, saying 'Look at this! It's a mystery box with brand new shiny things! You want to open it, don't you?'. There are people that have little self control and just want to immediately unlock it. This kind of system preys on that person. There are people that feel enjoyment when 'gambling' on a pack of cards, a chest like this, or pulling a lever. This system preys on that.

And Zky is right. Feeling 'exploited' or 'icky' about the system is a natural reaction to knowing how these types of systems work. I play Destiny a whole lot, it's the same damn thing in that. And that's what Riot is sorta chasing, the 'loot' aspect, the final cog of the machine. DotA has done it, with drops here and there or buyable versions, or purchasable 'mystery boxes'. It's pulling a lever in a slot machine, just digitized.

And I dunno why people are picking on Zky over seeing this as negative, seeing as I'm right here nitpicking on their intentions behind this shitty system.

Tell that to the behavioural psychologists and economists that are often behind these kinds of systems. Their goal first and foremost is to maximize the chances of exploiting them dolphins and whales (aside: hurray for casino lingo finding its way into game design!

Spoiler

/s

) and not do charity work, which is obviously a given since Riot's a buisiness anyway.

I can see the advantages of "free stuff", but design-wise I'm well aware of the intention to prey upon a particular user demographic, which means that the users that enjoy cool stuff for free are being subsidized by users psychologically exploited into paying money for stuff they might not have acquired otherwise.

There are hundreds of studies on stuff like that. Behavioral consultants are hired by, among others, video game companies hire to inform them on how to create systems to keep a player pressing the button for cheese. Whether it's World of Warcraft, Diablo, Destiny, Vegas Casinos, Claw Machines, Gacha machines, or what have you, all of these utilize a system that encourages customers to keep interacting with it. Whether it's the flashing lights and sound of a slot machine or opening a mystery skin and getting neat little graphics and sounds in League, or the color grading system of equipment in Diablo or WoW, all of these systems come together to prod the customer to keep playing.

DotA has done this for a while. Whether it's the Compendium, the buyable chests, or the loot drops, it enforces the playing of a game outside of the game itself. Yeah, League is fun to play, but what if we added Mystery Chests that can contain shiny new looks or ability graphics eh? And we'll give you some free Chests to get that feedback loop started, to get you excited for it. And then we'll pull the wool over your eyes and stop offering free Mystery Chests but they're purchasable over here for a measly 250 RP. You want to open the Mystery Chest, don't you?

...What happens is that playing the game stops being about the game itself, and it starts being about opening the chests or working towards the next key. Towards the next pull of the lever.

It's disgusting, quite frankly.

If you want to learn more about how these systems work, watch this video from Gamespot, it's about Destiny, but it talks about the background of systems like the one League is about to introduce-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g79dWuqXe5o

If League was a $60 retail game I would be upset at this system. Seeing as how it's a F2P game and an old gimmick at that I don't really get the outrage. Yes some people have gambling addiction issues and that's understandable but that shouldn't mean a new system shouldn't be implemented.

Feel pretty neutral about the whole thing.

The thing is, these systems are tailored to create these addictions. That's the scary part.

The mice that learned to press the button for cheese learned how to press the button. And then they pressed it over and over and over and over again despite having no previous inclination to do so. If they implement this system the way they said-Chests as drops here and there, key fragments you build up, it'll create that same loop. Play until you finish a key, open the chest. Rinse and repeat. Especially if they sale chests but you still have to build keys. Instead of pressing the button, you play the game to get this piece of key to open the chest and hope you get a new shiny.

It's a reality of how these systems work.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

r u calling me a nolifer

 

[Leezard]

i don't think it's gonna replace skins, i just think it's a shitty addition that makes the game worse for existing. i'd rather have the system i had before and not have to deal with this shit


i'd be surprised if they don't


why not just add the chance to get a free skin/champion instead of adding a complicated gambling system then?

you could get hats and guns in tf2 for free and you didn't even had to play the game to get them lol and it still made the game worse. sounded like a neat little thing at first too

also i dunno what's hard to understand, i don't like manipulative systems that exploit players. i mean, you're gonna get a chest drop, then start thinking is it worth it to wait for the key shards or whatever or should i just buy one from the shop. maybe not you, but me and a lot of other ppl will and that's how this shit works. it's created a problem for me that they offer a quick and easy solution to that costs money. and it's gambling, so you might not even get something that's worth anything.

i don't like it, i don't think the current system is perfect or anything, but it sure didn't have this new gambling thing i don't like

i'll save final judgement/whatever for when rito releases actual information on like drop rates and crap, but my initial reaction is the usual yuck at this things


yup, chromas are garbage for that very reason

i forget how much they cost but if they were 600rp for all three, it'd be a better deal to pay 500rp for each because you're only gonna ever use that one


very unlikely. outside of that ascension game mode i think riot has been really good at not falling into the trap of doing achievements

I don't like chest and key system/gambling either. I guess it was inevitable as soon as we had a client that could handle it, considering what a monetary success it is in valve's games.

Other than that, cool changes. I'll have to read more to catch up.

 

[ChrisD]

But now Riot can maybe sell Loading Screens guys.
Think of all the loading screens we could have.
Probably the one DLC that confused me the most. Even more than horse armor.

 

[Newt]

I really don't care about the aesthetic stuff. All I want is tp to be nerfed, get rid of the Morde bot stupid shit, give me 4 bans.

These chest things may be a trap, but they're never gonna affect gameplay.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I really don't care about the aesthetic stuff. All I want is tp to be nerfed, get rid of the Morde bot stupid shit, give me 4 bans.

These chest things may be a trap, but they're never gonna affect gameplay.

Well I mean...

....you can either nerf Morde and get an extra ban, or you can trade it all in for what's in this box-

 

[Ghost is Bad]

ur next clg analyst guys

 

[jerd]

To be fair if they use the winners of that contest as real analysts their competitive games actually may be 6-7 minutes

 

[zkylon]

I don't like chest and key system/gambling either. I guess it was inevitable as soon as we had a client that could handle it, considering what a monetary success it is in valve's games.

Other than that, cool changes. I'll have to read more to catch up.

i know you don't mean that by inevitable but it wasn't inevitable, it was a conscious choice that riot made

and tbh i always thought rito just didn't agree with the chest stuff and that's why they didn't do it, which is why i'm pretty disappointed to see.

And this is the crux of it. They're dangling the chest or key parts in front of your face, saying 'Look at this! It's a mystery box with brand new shiny things! You want to open it, don't you?'. There are people that have little self control and just want to immediately unlock it. This kind of system preys on that person. There are people that feel enjoyment when 'gambling' on a pack of cards, a chest like this, or pulling a lever. This system preys on that.

pretty much

blame shouldn't be on the person exploited, developers should just not make exploitative systems

And I dunno why people are picking on Zky over seeing this as negative, seeing as I'm right here nitpicking on their intentions behind this shitty system.

i'm surprised i had so much pushback

weird

If you want to learn more about how these systems work, watch this video from Gamespot, it's about Destiny, but it talks about the background of systems like the one League is about to introduce-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g79dWuqXe5o

this is a really good video

i love danny, he's great

 

[kenbo]

So basically if they dropped chests that didn't require keys it'd be ok. But At least keys can drop

However, get zkyon's problem with it.

Breezy limbo makes no sense though

 

[Leezard]

i know you don't mean that by inevitable but it wasn't inevitable, it was a conscious choice that riot made

and tbh i always thought rito just didn't agree with the chest stuff and that's why they didn't do it, which is why i'm pretty disappointed to see.

Yeah, you get what I mean and I get what you mean. Before, I thought rito didn't agree with it either but the timing with the new client makes me think otherwise; that the client tech was holding them back from this source of revenue. Granted, it is speculation from my side.

So basically if they dropped chests that didn't require keys it'd be ok. But At least keys can drop

However, get zkyon's problem with it.

Breezy limbo makes no sense though

Yeah pretty much.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So basically if they dropped chests that didn't require keys it'd be ok

At least keys can drop

Um, thats not the problem.

 

[Newt]

Dw, guys, I'm sure the lead developer has a solid plan.

I mean, cmon, you gotta trust a guy with this kinda expression.

 

[zkylon]

yeah, keys are the thing that makes the whole thing unpleasant, specially because when they're tied to $$$

thinking of the payday 2 blowout, i'm surprised this isn't a hot topic on the league subreddit

i think partly is how riot worded the whole thing. the writing is very unclear and you could be forgiven for going through it thinking that keys cannot be bought on the store, but with so little details, it's not wild thoughts to assume key shard drops will be scarce enough to make buying keys worth it

Um, thats not the problem.

it is a big problem, or at least the big problem that's introduced in this particular time

the whole chasing the next reward loop thing has long been in the game, from ranked tiers to mastery to skins to champion and icon and ward collecting, etc.

 

[kenbo]

That's why you two aren't even on the same point

Zkylon is sad about the dangling of the key and the goodies box tied to potential money for at risk return

You're annoyed about the gambling like RNG of loot rolls which you allege leads to addiction

Which is just meaningless however since its not a core part of the game, unlike loot rolls in destiny and Diablo likes

So zkylon makes sense, you don't.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

yeah, keys are the thing that makes the whole thing unpleasant, specially because when they're tied to $$$

thinking of the payday 2 blowout, i'm surprised this isn't a hot topic on the league subreddit

i think partly is how riot worded the whole thing. the writing is very unclear and you could be forgiven for going through it thinking that keys cannot be bought on the store, but with so little details, it's not wild thoughts to assume key shard drops will be scarce enough to make buying keys worth it

I think its going to be the chests that are sold @_@ not the keys themselves since those are seemingly easier to come by.

Its a wai and see...unfortunately.

 

[Leezard]

yeah, keys are the thing that makes the whole thing unpleasant, specially because when they're tied to $$$

thinking of the payday 2 blowout, i'm surprised this isn't a hot topic on the league subreddit

i think partly is how riot worded the whole thing. the writing is very unclear and you could be forgiven for going through it thinking that keys cannot be bought on the store, but with so little details, it's not wild thoughts to assume key shard drops will be scarce enough to make buying keys worth it

Given how much the league subreddit loves dota, I would expect them to love this. Many people have been wanting the chest and key system for "free skins".

 

[kenbo]

It'll still be free for me

 

[zkylon]

That's why you two aren't even on the same point

Zkylon is sad about the dangling of the key and the goodies box tied to potential money for at risk return

You're annoyed about the gambling like RNG of loot rolls which you allege leads to addiction

Which is just meaningless however since its not a core part of the game, unlike loot rolls in destiny and Diablo likes

So zkylon makes sense, you don't.

i agree with what he says about gambling and stuff, and i think there are traces of that in this chest system thing as it existed in tf2.

i wouldn't say it's meaningless even tho it's not as pronounced as in destiny or whatever

I think its going to be the chests that are sold @_@ not the keys themselves since those are seemingly easier to come by.

Its a wai and see...unfortunately.

i think it's keys but i could be wrong

Given how much the league subreddit loves dota, I would expect them to love this. Many people have been wanting the chest and key system for "free skins".

i dunno, in general i feel the league subreddit is really bad at reacting to stuff like that (for or against), while they freak over the stupidest of things

 

[kenbo]

i agree with what he says about gambling and stuff, and i think there are traces of that in this chest system thing as it existed in tf2.

i wouldn't say it's meaningless even tho it's not as pronounced as in destiny or whatever


i think it's keys but i could be wrong

Um mouse press button analogies work for destiny and the like but that's all that makes sense

The analogy just flat out doesn't work here, even if this is definitely a form of "gambling" though he didn't seem too concerned about the money aspect, but more so the RNG aspect

It doesn't make sense because chests cannot become a big enough reason of why you play the game due to factor like: you can't sell the items, the chests will be rarer than tf2 standards, major cosmetics will still be sold on lolshoppe and the items don't have stats


The league subreddit is concerned about dynamic queues,which I think is fair enough. It changes the core game for many players (solo queue)

I'm a solo queuer and I am tentatively worried myself, mostly because 4 stacks I've met have been pretty annoying

 

[Ocho]

There's a Discord group?

 

[kenbo]

https://discord.gg/0b3kquytXU9NmSSe

Lolgaf discord server sup Ocho

 

[Wolf Akela]

I just got home from work and read the news.

Holy shiiiiiiiiiiiit

 

[zkylon]

Um mouse press button analogies work for destiny and the like but that's all that makes sense

The analogy just flat out doesn't work here, even if this is definitely a form of "gambling" though he didn't seem too concerned about the money aspect, but more so the RNG aspect

It doesn't make sense because chests cannot become a big enough reason of why you play the game due to factor like: you can't sell the items, the chests will be rarer than tf2 standards, major cosmetics will still be sold on lolshoppe and the items don't have stats

i guess there's two things

there's the "addicting" element of the reward structure which isn't that different from first win of the day, mastery or even patches. it gets you hooked in the game because of things built to get you hooked into the game. this is not necessarily a bad thing, as all games have leveling systems, loot, side quests, etc., so the implementation is what matters here. i think league does fairly ok with this, and i don't think the chests really make this much worse.

the second thing is the creation of an artificial need and how they provide a for profit way of satiating that need. i never liked this, i hate it in fallout shelter when i play it and look at that fucking super tempting mr handy upgrade that could make collecting those resources so painless and then i have to stop and remind myself not to fall for its tricks. this is kind of what is being introduced with chests, and i guess it's up to key drop rates but i'm guessing they won't be plentiful so that feeling of having a need that's not covered is gonna be there and i dislike that a lot

it's one of the things i criticized a lot about doto, i played like 5 games of doto and got a bunch of locked chests and a few armor pieces that would look SO COOL if i just bought the rest of the set and while i'm at there this guy is selling keys for the cheap and...

The league subreddit is concerned about dynamic queues,which I think is fair enough. It changes the core game for many players (solo queue)

I'm a solo queuer and I am tentatively worried myself, mostly because 4 stacks I've met have been pretty annoying

yeah i guess for me it just sounded like a cool thing but i can see there could be some big pitfalls if matchmaking is wonky, specially in regions like mine where there's not that many peoplee

 

[Newt]

I feel like they should make a separate queue. Solo q, multi q (more than 2), ranked 3s, ranked 5s and ranked dominion.

Spoiler

Ranked dominion? Just kidding, no-one would play that garbage.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

there can only be 2 newt

solo queue(with infinite party) and party queue

 

[Newt]

there can only be 2 newt

solo queue(with infinite party) and party queue

I mean more than 2 players. You should still be able to duo q for solo q.

 

[Leezard]

The 'Problem' with a true solo queue is that there would be no solo players to fill for the 4 man premades since it sucks to do that.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I mean more than 2 players. You should still be able to duo q for solo q.

Wait you can't duo queue under this new system for solo queue?

@_@

 

[Leezard]

Wait you can't duo queue under this new system for solo queue?

@_@

You can. 1-5 players can all join together in new ranked.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

You can. 1-5 players can all join together in new ranked.

Oh so...you can duo q for solo q?

I dunno, FUCK THE POLICE

 

[Leezard]

Oh so...you can duo q for solo q?

I dunno, FUCK THE POLICE

There is no solo queue anymore, there is ranked draft. You can duo queue in ranked draft.

Team ranked draft seems to still be separate though.

 

[kenbo]

How about 3 stacks max??

 

[BreezyLimbo]

There is no solo queue anymore, there is ranked draft. You can duo queue in ranked draft.

Team ranked draft seems to still be separate though.

Wait shit oh no they're bringing the draft mode to ranked

fuck

I feared this

It's all over, fuck this cuddling pick your role and characters and be nice to everyone bullshit in the lobby, fuck the riot state.

It's all over, it's all over for league. It will perish.

 

[kenbo]

Dude aren't you silver

 

[Newt]

Wait shit oh no they're bringing the draft mode to ranked

fuck

I feared this

It's all over, fuck this cuddling pick your role and characters and be nice to everyone bullshit in the lobby, fuck the riot state.

It's all over, it's all over for league. It will perish.

It's more like they're bringing team builder to ranked, which is fine, but I wish they would still keep generic solo q.

Dude aren't you silver

:lol

 

[BreezyLimbo]

It's more like they're bringing team builder to ranked, which is fine, but I wish they would still keep generic solo q.

no it's horrible

it's the end of ranked

it's all over

 

[AzureSkies]

I already quit so I approve of this change.

 

[Leezard]

It's more like they're bringing team builder to ranked, which is fine, but I wish they would still keep generic solo q.


:lol

Don't worry Newt, you can still pick Bard jungle even if you queue for adc.

 

[Newt]

Don't worry Newt, you can still pick Bard jungle even if you queue for adc.

You say it as if I troll for fun. That's simply a by-product.

If the world didn't have Yasuos, I would never troll.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I'm sure with the new system where you have to pick your roll, if you do a troll pick it's much easier to track it and easier to ban.

It's an awful solution, rito plz

 

[Leezard]

You say it as if I troll for fun. That's simply a by-product.

If the world didn't have Yasuos, I would never troll.

I get why you're doing it even if I don't agree with doing it.

You can still do it though. What is it that you're missing from the new ranked from the old one?

 

[kenbo]

Well now he can quit early if people show "yasuo" intent without repercussions

and also, you're more likely to get caught if you say pick bot-adc and end up playing bard with most of your time in the jungle

The new queue simultaneously solves his problems and makes his trolling harder to pull off

 

[Stone Ocean]

I honestly don't see the difference between chests and mystery skins and those are loved.

Let people with credit cards decide what to do with their money, they're adults or kids with parent permission. If they want to burn it they don't need a gambling system for that, making it sound like Riot is doing something shady is silly

 

[kenbo]

yea but what about me 4 stacks in solo q

 

[Stone Ocean]

I dunno I just think people are overthinking things waaaay too much and using a bunch of unlikely what if scenarios to complain about something that they haven't even tried yet - talking about the quadra Q reddit thing, not you zky, before you think I'm giving you shit for saying your opinion even though I don't agree.

"But what if I get matched with a 4 man premade and we do bad and they're assholes and actually take it out on me" is not a common thing and there's 4 months until the new season actually starts, there will be plenty of time to test it and figure it out if it actually sucks and if Riot should cancel the thing.

 

[kenbo]

i've been with 4 stacks before though in normal q
theyre lamers


with todays reveal its probably worth it to bring up this guy:

snowdown snowy summoners rift with free mastery chests for testing hype

everybody is going to forgive riot

 

[Leezard]

i've been with 4 stacks before though in normal q
theyre lamers


with todays reveal its probably worth it to bring up this guy:

snowdown snowy summoners rift with free mastery chests for testing hype

everybody is going to forgive riot

That would be cool. I did not expect any more map skins.