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League of Legends |OT10| Botlane Was A Mistake, It's Nothing But Thresh
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
- Start date
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Negaduck said:
This is how you Garen. Cleaver, defense, LW,defense.
Voli is amazing
When all of the new annoying stuff dominates the draft it doesn't leave enough bans for other broken things like tank Ekko.
Even before the latest patch I thought tank Ekko was kinda low priority on the ban list. The only added bans this patch are Skarner and Morde, and I'm unsure how high of a priority we should actually put on Morde. Rengar, Elise etc were on top of the ban list the last patch as well.
You ban Rengar for your own team?
For both. He has that Shaco syndrome.
Stone Ocean
Member
Assassins and tanks should be your bitches thanks to Riposte and your passive.
killatopak
Member
Syndra buffs aren't going to be pushed in the next patch. Most likely 5.18.
Stone Ocean
Member
Because Viktor/Azir's rule needs to last another patch
I do like the direction of the patch but yeah they need to iron out Skarner and the juggernaut items. The amount of health you can build with them is crazy. Once it settles we can look forward to a new meta and some really interesting picks for Worlds.
Lucian and Nami are two of my mains so it's great to see buffs that have an impact. MS is the difference between being in attack range and landing that vital shot, or just escaping by the skin of your teeth.
Lucian and Nami are two of my mains so it's great to see buffs that have an impact. MS is the difference between being in attack range and landing that vital shot, or just escaping by the skin of your teeth.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
SaintVicious ponders why PBE exists if something like Skarner can make it through
I am inclined to agree
Also I am surprised CSGO has 700k viewers, that is a disgusting number
I am inclined to agree
Also I am surprised CSGO has 700k viewers, that is a disgusting number
Riot has, at least a few dozen times now, stated that PBE is not for balancing what-so-ever; it's for bug testing. The sample size of players and the range of MMRs which are paired in matchmaking make it essentially useless for balancing.
I'm not shocked in the slightest that Saint doesn't know that.
As far some of these champions and new items being too damn strong - good. Riot's balancing track record with pulling back things that are too strong is much better than their record of propping up things that are too weak, the latter generally being resigned to gather dust in the corner.
Stone Ocean
Member
Skarner had several iterations on the PBE that people bitched about being weak, blame reddit.
Also I hate these "hurr durr why PBE exists" comments. The PBE has a minimal fraction of a fraction of the League userbase with a massive disparity in skill level, the PBE experience just isn't good for actual balance testing as opposed to bug testing. PBE players said that release Jayce, Elise and Yasuo were all garbage so ¯\_(ツ
_/¯What Riot needs to do is not be afraid of putting a few hotfixes in whenever this type of shit happens instead of letting it go through an entire patch cycle ruining blind pick games;
BreezyLimbo
Banned
PBE is for "Bug" testing >_> I mean, you can't expect me to seriously believe that with some of the hilarious glitches and bugs that happened the past couple months.
Yeah, I can imagine it'd be shitty for balancing. I blame Reddit and Riots stance with using it as a crutch. They should come to Neogaf, we know what we're talking about!
And I'm all for overpowered shit going through Live. It needs to happen to alotta things.
Yeah, I can imagine it'd be shitty for balancing. I blame Reddit and Riots stance with using it as a crutch. They should come to Neogaf, we know what we're talking about!
And I'm all for overpowered shit going through Live. It needs to happen to alotta things.
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
I'm in New York for NA LCS semifinals and the el classico CLG vs TSM finals you weirdos.
I'll have pics of cute cosplay grills and pros soon hopefully.
Stone Ocean
Member
Not all bugs will show up in normal testing anyways, specially when most PBE players are just trying to try out new content. How the fuck would someone figure out that a patch with no Zed changes would make Zed just kill every minion in every lane before hitting live servers?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Proper testing would figure it out! Aside from that didnt Fiora ship with enough bugs that they disabled her in the patch the reworked her?
It was weak. Felt awful, it was a noticeable downgrade. The MS nerf felt really bad and the lack of stacking attack speed on his Q exposed how weird Skarner's auto attack animation was. The coverage area of the spires was off as well because they only covered a portion of the camps. A huge majority of the complaints on the official Skarner PBE feedback thread had to do with those three issues.
Champion.gg information is up for the new patch:
Q max first -> 64% win rate
E max first -> 73% win rate
Deal with it.
(Also confirmed my own finding that picking W second is better as well)
And a big laugh at people saying morde bot isn't good. 56% WR, 60% WR with E max.
And holy shit at Garen!
killatopak
Member
is that win rate true? You've got to be kidding me. 73% win rate? WTF!
Royal Guacamole
Member
Skarner had several iterations on the PBE that people bitched about being weak, blame reddit.
Also I hate these "hurr durr why PBE exists" comments. The PBE has a minimal fraction of a fraction of the League userbase with a massive disparity in skill level, the PBE experience just isn't good for actual balance testing as opposed to bug testing. PBE players said that release Jayce, Elise and Yasuo were all garbage so ¯\_(ツ
What Riot needs to do is not be afraid of putting a few hotfixes in whenever this type of shit happens instead of letting it go through an entire patch cycle ruining blind pick games;
Agreed on the hotfix part.
While I understand that the PBE isn't capable of properly sorting out a champion on a more microscopic level, and while I embrace the fact that an online game is getting constantly updated (for better or worse) they really need to do something to smooth out the bad days or weeks of broken stuff that goes through.
I'm used to being in the mind set of "alright, what's gonna be the flavor of BS this week/month" and just deal with and play around it. But then I pull myself out of that point of view and realize that it's a little bit ridiculous.
Orochinagis
Member
speaking of zkylewd, couldn't help myself and pledged to sakimichan hoping the hi-res madoka lux would be available right away but turns out i have to wait two weeks -__-
fuuuuuuuuu
at least i found newest tales of valoran
at least this one dont have the usual ">o<" face
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
"We couldn't have garen just tank and then heal and tank."
dang
some it's riot's fault (like i've seen some pbe reports with pictures and everything on pretty big bugs that they should've probably acted on), some is just that pbe feedback is just not too reliable since everyone trolls there and most ppl just use pbe to test out skins. plus, bug reports from players are probably pretty bad since they'll be like "fiora sometimes doesn't attack" but they forget to mention it's right after she q'd and hit a vital and was against someone with tenacity or something like that, so from rito's side it's just impossible to reproduce and fix
also pbe's a tiny sample compared to live. it's like a couple thousands vs many many millions, so obviously bugs will surface much easier when u have a country's worth of people constantly playing your game
Ghost is Bad
Banned
riot has finally gone back to making everything op before nerfing again.
Fixed
He didn't though, at least the way I built him I was never just a tank, I stayed a threat the whole game and now they've just made it that much easier for me.
If he starts getting banned. . . = (I really don't think he will)
Ghost is Bad
Banned
i ban him in all my games so i dont play him
this buff/nerf hotfixing thing is kind of interesting
i wouldn't say i'd like it to become the norm that every patch's gonna get that kind of thing, specially for things like darius just being weak since that doesn't really affect the game as much, but i think it's good they're doing it on skarner. i wish they had done that on ryze when he was super dumb, but i think they should use hotfixes for things like that
like, fiora got hotfix buffs that were really unnecessary imo and now she's #1 winrate in top lane. like, it wasn't gamebreaking or warping the game in any way like skarner is, so why not let her be weak for a patch and then buff her with a full patch's data instead
i like that face ._.
it's a really complicated issue for rito which is why they don't just take one approach to fixing it and do a whole bunch of things at the same time (bugfixing champions individually like azir or synchan, overhauling systems like the skillshots thingie, or when they redid sounds, etc., doing triage hotfixing for things like zed randomly killing minion waves before their spawn lol, and probably some very big engine changes we're not being told about) and they have to do all of that without disrupting the existing game, releasing new content every month, new and reworked champions every two months (and lately these champions have often had very crazy shit), etc. like, it would be awesome if they overnight changed the engine to one that's awesome and perfect and whatever but that's just unrealistic. i dunno exactly what's in doto 2 new engine but i bet it's more of a rendering upgrade and performance and whatnot that actual game logic which is the biggest problem with league. so it was probably much easier of a job (also it's valve's 3rd engine iirc so they're pretty savvy at that stuff)
it's a complicated game, something is always gonna be broken, i'd love for things like syndra being sort of unplayable for two months not happening and hopefully as more underlying systems get recoded that will be less frequent, but that's about it, it has little to do with pbe.
also afaik fiora had minor issues and she was more of a delayed release than actual gamebreaking bugs or anything
i wouldn't say i'd like it to become the norm that every patch's gonna get that kind of thing, specially for things like darius just being weak since that doesn't really affect the game as much, but i think it's good they're doing it on skarner. i wish they had done that on ryze when he was super dumb, but i think they should use hotfixes for things like that
like, fiora got hotfix buffs that were really unnecessary imo and now she's #1 winrate in top lane. like, it wasn't gamebreaking or warping the game in any way like skarner is, so why not let her be weak for a patch and then buff her with a full patch's data instead
why
i like that face ._.
i mean, there's really no "proper" testing for things like that or else patches would take forever to release. like if for every patch you'd test every combination of champion and item and situation you'd take months to release one patch and you couldn't do anything in that time or else you'd have to start over. plus, it's inefficient af to just bugcheck EVERYTHING every patch, even if rito hired an army of testers that would just be a bad idea and no developer in their right mind would do that (also if riot ever fixed some of their more low level engine code and made their game more stable they'd have to fire all those ppl).
it's a really complicated issue for rito which is why they don't just take one approach to fixing it and do a whole bunch of things at the same time (bugfixing champions individually like azir or synchan, overhauling systems like the skillshots thingie, or when they redid sounds, etc., doing triage hotfixing for things like zed randomly killing minion waves before their spawn lol, and probably some very big engine changes we're not being told about) and they have to do all of that without disrupting the existing game, releasing new content every month, new and reworked champions every two months (and lately these champions have often had very crazy shit), etc. like, it would be awesome if they overnight changed the engine to one that's awesome and perfect and whatever but that's just unrealistic. i dunno exactly what's in doto 2 new engine but i bet it's more of a rendering upgrade and performance and whatnot that actual game logic which is the biggest problem with league. so it was probably much easier of a job (also it's valve's 3rd engine iirc so they're pretty savvy at that stuff)
it's a complicated game, something is always gonna be broken, i'd love for things like syndra being sort of unplayable for two months not happening and hopefully as more underlying systems get recoded that will be less frequent, but that's about it, it has little to do with pbe.
also afaik fiora had minor issues and she was more of a delayed release than actual gamebreaking bugs or anything
I think the reason they do hotfix buffs is to get people to learn the characters - if they are too strong rather than too weak people will play them, obviously. Once people know how to play the characters, some people will probably stick with playing them even after they subsequently get nerfed.
That's a relatively cynical view but it's how I see it.
edit: Actually it seems they are hotfix-nerfing Garen and Skarner, both. My cynical point of view does not appear to be on point.
It's not cynical, and it's how things should be. Community would have a shit fit over "balance integrity" or "pay to win" or whatever dumbass thing would rustle their shit if Riot's official position was to make things OP on release, but champions, items, etc. should be OP on release/rework. Not OP, game slaughtering Skarner OP, but obviously strong.
The more players play a champion or use an item, the more they'll end up determining what defines the champion/item and at the same time Riot collects more data, which means whatever nerfs they'll end up doing are more likely to be focused on keeping those defining traits. End result is better game health.
Righteous Glory is a fantastic example of how that works. No one bought it, so its health was over buffed. Players bought and recognized how great the active was. Today's Righteous Glory is even weaker than on release, significantly so - but the active hasn't changed and players are still picking it up.
Stone Ocean
Member
I don't think I've seen a single Garen in this patch, from my own games to streams lol
i see what u mean, but i don't think it's rito's official policy since roughly as many new champions/reworks/item are underwhelming on release as they're op
Ghost is Bad
Banned
renek wins pretty much every lane except for gnar or vayne
This is really not true at all anymore.
No, it's definitely not official policy, or unofficial policy even.
What I was getting at is that if Riot came out and outright said "hey, from here on out everything new, reworks, etc. are going to be OP because it's easier to collect data and make more information balance choices" the community would have a shit fit of epic proportions, even though in terms of game health it actually would likely be an improvement.
In other news: Tahm Kench now has 52%+ win rates in top, support, and even jungle with best results skill orders. New jungler for my pool, aww yess fatass catfish coming up!
It's not as easy as it once used to be. But things like Titanic Hydra is great on him.
Empowered W and Q and titanic is so much damage.
Also the particle effect on titanic hydra is awesome.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Played him 3 times now I think. His early game really is just like every other melee top. Survive early, then start murdering shit after about 15 minutes of suffering.
There are too many bruisers right now that edge out Renekton in lane and shift better into mid and late game.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
if you're gonna talk about mid/late game then yeah of course hes gonna be worse but he's still probably the strongest bruiser during laning phase.
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