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League of Legends |OT10| Botlane Was A Mistake, It's Nothing But Thresh
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
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killatopak
Gold Member
I played a game and didn't note my new pingI was distracted. Sadness.
I didn't play well so I blame the lower ping.
Bring back the high ping so I can play better! Kappa.
You should need E or W to survive against a competent ranged lane
Rekkles, Alex Ich and WT are doing variants of "E max"
champion.gg has W max as highest win rate
Stone Ocean
Member
I just don't think the meaningless base damage and like a quarter second CD per rank on E is worth maxing it first. W I can understand since the base damage is BAT SHIT INSANE if you manage to cross the streams, it does like 600 base.
killatopak
Gold Member
So for the past few days I've been reading guides like how to go from Plat to Diamond just like how I read dozens of guides like from Gold to Plat and Silver to Gold. I credit those guides on how I got up the ladder so fast in my first season. I can generally follow all their advises like mechanical and strategical stuff and watching tons of streams and video guides but there's two things that always pops up in someones guide and I always fail to do them.
-Look for your own mistakes.
I cannot for the life of me focus on my mistakes in game. This leads to the second thing that I cannot do.
-Watch your replays.
Around SEA there's this company that manages League independently from Riot. They're Garena. For some dumb reason, the 3rd party stuff like op.gg, lolking and other League related sites that can help you monitor your stats, find your MMR, and allow you to watch replays is blocked by Garena. This also means I can't do disgusting but very effective strategies like looking up the enemy, finding someone on tilt and camping the living shit out of them or normal stuff like finding who their main is or what rank they are.
There is only one way I could do some if not all of the above and that's by Riot creating their own replay system and/or making a new client to allow stat viewing and other minor stuff that can help me improve in some way. If they can somehow implement it, a sandbox mode is also fine. Stuff like practicing how to effectively use Rumble ult and flashing over walls can be very good for the community.
I wish I can be positive that it's coming but when I read the Riot Pls stuff, I think they think it's not much of a priority along with the sand box mode. I think they're wrong and they should prioritize stuff like these. Other moba games had these for years and if they're planning to move forward and still be the leading moba game in the future, they have to at least be on par with the other moba games technically. If they don't then League will stay stagnant and won't move forward. I know they are busy and there's a lot of stuff to do like the recent server move in NA so I can't exactly blame them for that but if they can give a specific time when it could possibly be implemented then it would be great. I think sometime around preseason where they are less busy is a great time. They are a large company and I think they have the resources to allow this to happen.
TL;DR - I want a native replay system.
Edit: If someone knows a method on how to view replays in the SEA region, specifically PH, then I would really appreciate it.
-Look for your own mistakes.
I cannot for the life of me focus on my mistakes in game. This leads to the second thing that I cannot do.
-Watch your replays.
Around SEA there's this company that manages League independently from Riot. They're Garena. For some dumb reason, the 3rd party stuff like op.gg, lolking and other League related sites that can help you monitor your stats, find your MMR, and allow you to watch replays is blocked by Garena. This also means I can't do disgusting but very effective strategies like looking up the enemy, finding someone on tilt and camping the living shit out of them or normal stuff like finding who their main is or what rank they are.
There is only one way I could do some if not all of the above and that's by Riot creating their own replay system and/or making a new client to allow stat viewing and other minor stuff that can help me improve in some way. If they can somehow implement it, a sandbox mode is also fine. Stuff like practicing how to effectively use Rumble ult and flashing over walls can be very good for the community.
I wish I can be positive that it's coming but when I read the Riot Pls stuff, I think they think it's not much of a priority along with the sand box mode. I think they're wrong and they should prioritize stuff like these. Other moba games had these for years and if they're planning to move forward and still be the leading moba game in the future, they have to at least be on par with the other moba games technically. If they don't then League will stay stagnant and won't move forward. I know they are busy and there's a lot of stuff to do like the recent server move in NA so I can't exactly blame them for that but if they can give a specific time when it could possibly be implemented then it would be great. I think sometime around preseason where they are less busy is a great time. They are a large company and I think they have the resources to allow this to happen.
TL;DR - I want a native replay system.
Edit: If someone knows a method on how to view replays in the SEA region, specifically PH, then I would really appreciate it.
it's not worth it, pros are just as shit at picking abilities as anyone else and E max popularity is literally just a combination of Rekkles [literally who?] and probuilds.
should be easy to make your own replay just download LoLSummoner and run it in the background. does it not work in your region that would be weird.
killatopak
Gold Member
My region isn't supported. The only method I know that would work is using an actual recording app like fraps but it uses a lot of resources and may affect my fps in game.
To be more specific, some lol replays website or apps were supported up until 2013 when our region lost support.
Yeah depending on what your connection and computer are like you could just stream on twitch and they'll save all of your replays for you. It's a poor solution but it's there
You should be able to focus on your mistakes in game tho. Just things like why did i die, how could i have fought that team fight better, could i have all ind right there, doesn't have to be anything crazy just be actively thinking while you play
Every time you die there's obv a reason. Even if it was probably your teammate's fault try to think of a reason besides my jungler is a vegetable.
You should be able to focus on your mistakes in game tho. Just things like why did i die, how could i have fought that team fight better, could i have all ind right there, doesn't have to be anything crazy just be actively thinking while you play
Every time you die there's obv a reason. Even if it was probably your teammate's fault try to think of a reason besides my jungler is a vegetable.
.
I never bother to watch replays but I usually think about how I played the game and it's not that difficult to realise when I did something wrong.
Most mistakes are of the form
- being too aggressive when you should not be
- being too passive when you should not be
- being on the wrong side of the map
- mechanical error
I was afraid you'd say that. Can't we email Riot (or riotcosty hehe) and make them aware? This is really silly now I'm feeling your frustration
i really enjoy comps with morde
i'm like, srsly hoping the game will maybe go a bit in that direction of dumb adcs, much more aggressive, it's hilarious
Finally got around to looking you up. Wow! 9/0/10 with Lissandra in one of your earlier matches. Would love to watch a replay of this. Best I've done with her was something like 6/5/7
Only weird thing is you have no mastery score. Does Summoner's Rift ranked players not accrue mastery points?
edit- (I'm looking at your Lissandra build. I havent been running Zhonya's Hourglass maybe that could help me survive. Funny things that I learn by looking at other people pages, etc)
Grr, been studying Zkylon's rune pages so I can learn to be great. Frustrating seeing all those expensive runes (like Greater Hybrid Penetration marks). Gonna take awhile to purchase those nice things
And lulz at those rune page names... That's awesome. Armored waifus, pirate boobs, etc
And lulz at those rune page names... That's awesome. Armored waifus, pirate boobs, etc
killatopak
Gold Member
I'm afraid I don't have the necessary connection required to record stuff while playing at the same time. I think I have 5 mbps down and 1 mbps up. I'm sure streaming that along with the other people using the internet around the house would lead to severely high pings in game.
I can notice those kinds of mistakes pretty often. What I don't notice is something like this Specifically around 23:50. If I have to word it out, the renekton comes to mid to help Lee and Kassadin reinforcing both of them in their mind that "we have superior numbers and we can fight". Then around 26:20, you see how unsuccesful a team fight can be when you have the wrong conditions around you like no creeps and the opposing team has a lot of tools to survive a dive. You can look at it and say it's easy to spot but personally If I was on the shoes of that renekton in game, I wouldn't think it's because I followed trynd that something bad had happened in that team fight. Maybe I would think of that after the game or after I watched that teamfight but I wouldn't think of it at that exact moment. Anyway, I'm bad at noticing my own mistakes so it's better for me if someone pointed it out to me or if I reviewed it intensively. I'm bad like that so I'm hoping I can improve it as I watch more replays but I can't do it without replays.
I'm afraid nothing any of us in our region say or do would have any difference in what Riot would do to help use because another company is governing that for them. What I think would work is if enough people from regions that Riot themselves govern makes a statement about how much they want improvements in the client and a replay system, they can make it native on the application forcing Garena to implement the upgrades thus allowing people in our region to use them.
Grr, been studying Zkylon's rune pages so I can learn to be great. Frustrating seeing all those expensive runes (like Greater Hybrid Penetration marks). Gonna take awhile to purchase those nice things
And lulz at those rune page names... That's awesome. Armored waifus, pirate boobs, etc
Hey if you have trouble making masteries or rune pages, I think Zky sent me this link to video where Phreak explains a basic and advanced guide to making masteries and rune pages. It's super helpful and I'm using most of the masteries myself. Runes and Masteries for 2015 and Beyond
yeah here it's closed from 5 am to whatever, we didn't have 3v3s for the longest time and currently there's no dominion or normals draft
i miss normals draft, but ping > everything
Grr, been studying Zkylon's rune pages so I can learn to be great. Frustrating seeing all those expensive runes (like Greater Hybrid Penetration marks). Gonna take awhile to purchase those nice things
And lulz at those rune page names... That's awesome. Armored waifus, pirate boobs, etc
pretty sure you're looking at my old na account, this is my current one: http://las.op.gg/summoner/rune/userName=zkylon
less stellar lizzy scores and generally no solo q or whatever
the runes i generally use are:
ap quints, mpen reds, hp/lvl yellows and cdr/lvl blues
or
ap quints, mpen reds, hp/lvl yellows and ap/lvl blues
pretty much nothing else
also yeah you should buy zhonyas second or third item every game with lizzy, it's as core as an item gets on a champion.
i want to get fiora too but i'm so bad at fiora that i think i'm gonna wait and buy it later but after playing a few more games with her or whatever
I'd say that's an error of being too aggressive, with touches of being on the wrong side of the map. I agree that catching the latter error is more difficult than catching the former error in this case, and it will most likely be easier to improve with coaching rather than just figuring it out on your own, but you can certainly do a lot.
If I was playing that Renekton and made the same decisions leading to his death then I think my thoughts would be
"ok that dive was really stupid, it wasn't even close "
" but if we couldn't dive, why would I come mid? The only reason would be to protect my team mates in case of a fight. Would my help be needed? Would it be worth it to come? "
If you're dedicated then checking replays can help a lot. Even if you won't (or in your case literally can't) check replays there's still a lot that can be learned from just thinking during or after the game. It's mostly about questioning why you do something.
My main issue I currently cannot afford the more fancy runes such as Greater Mark of Hybrid Penetration or Greater Quint of Healths (for Zac since his attacks consumes health)
I saved like 8k IP before dinging Summoner 20 and blew it all to fully populate my pages. I think it really took bout a total of 10k+ IP to do it though. I think they should maybe give noobs free Tier 3 runes when they ding L20 (ah but they won't cause I'm sure they want us to burn IP on runes and spend RP on champs)
It's tempting to buy IP boosts but keep reading threads where they say its a waste of money. Anyways, I'm only L23 so I'm sure by the time I'm L30 I'll have all the runes I want. It's just a frustrating wait
Depending on what you like to do, you can get away with two or three generic rune pages. The fancy penetration/health/scaling/cdr runes are just minor tweaks in the grand scheme of things. Especially sub 30.
AP:
AP quints
Magic pen marks
Armor seals
MR glyphs
AD:
AD quints
Armor pen marks
Armor seals
MR glyphs
Attack speed jungle:
Attack speed quints
AD marks
Armor seals
Flat MR or scaling MR glyphs
If you want to save some IP initially you can use attack speed marks and keep the AD quints for your attack speed page.
Further refining would be to get some cdr glyphs and make your jungle page have flat 5% cdr and the rest MR.
Really you can get by with those 3. A fourth could be the same attack speed jungle but with AP instead of AD. Can use that effectively on Elise, evelynn, nidalee, diana, sejuani.
I'd say 75%+ of my matches use one of those 4 or a slight variation on that.
Stone Ocean
Member
Just in case Morde wasn't bad enough, add "being able to do Krugs without taking damage and also fast enough to get to lane while barely losing CS at level 1 with W start" to the list.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I don't know how to win in this game anymore. If anyone would like to duo please let me know.
3 games today and one featured a support Ezreal. Another featured a support Teemo. Both went as you would expect. Doesn't matter if I can manage 15/5 on my AP mid if the supports are giving up 17 deaths and ensuring every fight is 4v5.
I can't do anything in these matches but lose ranked points anymore. Pls help.
3 games today and one featured a support Ezreal. Another featured a support Teemo. Both went as you would expect. Doesn't matter if I can manage 15/5 on my AP mid if the supports are giving up 17 deaths and ensuring every fight is 4v5.
I can't do anything in these matches but lose ranked points anymore. Pls help.
Stone Ocean
Member
Pretty much every high ELO top laner does double jungling to level 2 these days. It's fucking stupid.
PhillipCostigan
Member
I was wondering how long it would be until that was found out.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
no ones ever gonna address that issue because at some point, laners are gonna have to do jungle camps while waves are in unsafe areas.
Stone Ocean
Member
Making camps not worth taking as a laner at level 1 doesn't mean they need to not be worth taking later
Tizoc
Member
Just won as Top Garen against Hecarim. My team was really ahead while it was just me and Heca keeping Top lane at a stand still.
Went Sunfire>Tiamat, they surrender just after we got Baron. I hadn't bought any other items after Tiamat as I was staying on the lanes helping in team fights etc.
Went Sunfire>Tiamat, they surrender just after we got Baron. I hadn't bought any other items after Tiamat as I was staying on the lanes helping in team fights etc.
You're talking about a different thing. Fixing XP in the early jungle so it isn't advantageous to ignore level 1 laning against your opponent doesn't have any bearing on laners taking jungle XP mid-game onwards.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
do u honestly believe riot can do something like that. they couldnt even fix garen.
Stone Ocean
Member
Ghost is Bad
Banned
under what criteria? are you gonna make it so laners can't get xp from minutes 0-10? u just screwed ur tournament top laners. make it so you need a jungling item to get jungle camp xp? screwed again. there aren't any sort of easy solutions to this problem which is why it's strange to see you guys say that they can easily fix this.
Stone Ocean
Member
I still stand by my " adjust jungle XP curves giving it lower early XP, make machete have a passive that gives bonus XP per jungle mob, passive is lost once you enchant it" solution
If competitive top laners are going to have a hard time getting anything then either Riot needs to give them proper ways to deal with that shit or pro teams need to change their strategies so games aren't 4v4 for 20 minutes
Buff jungle damage to kick laners butts and add a take decreased jungle damage to machete to maintain the same damage as live to junglers. Band aid applied.
Thanks for the advice! Yeah think I'm going to take a break from buying tier 3 runes since I got the basic ones and just save IP for a bit.
You're ranked which is a totally diff thing but when I really want to win I go support. I've found I can kill the enemy team all I want and go 20/3/5 or something and still lose cause the support on the team isn't really nuturing the adc and buffing everyone. When I'm support, its so much harder for the team to lose cause I'm buffing everyone to close the gap on fleeing squishies, nuturing/babysitting the adc, etc. I try to let my adc get all the last hits ofc and even take a bullet for'em if I must. Works great at my level since everyone hates playing support but probably a different case in ranked
[edit] I'm like a creepy/stalker'ish support player (on Karma). I don't let the adc go anywhere w/o me. I'm stuck to their rear end all game. Might be a bit too aggressive but I can only recall 1 loss ever on my karma support so far.
Oh right and I totally kiss everyone's butt on my team all game too. Anything good thing they do I complement the crap out of them LOL! At least when I'm support.
GL!
Tizoc
Member
On the one hand they could make it so champs WITHOUT smite get less EXP from jungles at least during their first early levels.
i agree, but i also dont exactly know how u would address it, really
i think i've had issues with all the proposed solutions
It's actually easy.
1.) Reduce XP from large jungle monsters by a flat amount X, machete gives flat amount X additional XP on large jungle monster kill.
2.) Increase the time in the match that camps spawn by Y.
Right now, the double jungle method is making it so that after clearing two camps, the solo laners reach level 2 at a time in the match when about ~4 minions have died. By the time they TP in the first minion waves are still up. Since it takes 7 minions to level in the solo lane, it's a net gain, and that's before accounting for the jungle gold that's been spent on a first buy. By manipulating the values of X and Y Riot could make it so that its' preferable to have stayed in the lane.
Because X is a flat amount, it becomes less and less relevant as the jungle XP increases throughout the match, so the loss of X isn't as much a deterrent to nabbing jungle XP as it is in the early game. Early on in season 5 Riot shifted gold from the large monsters to machete and the impact on laners wasn't significant, like, at all. This overall impact of doing the same to XP will yield the same result mid-game onwards when laners are looking to nab extra gold and XP from the jungle.
Personally I'd pair the two above changes with a nerf to TP such that it doesn't offer so much CDR when TP'ing to towers. Hell, I'd remove that portion altogether of TP and add in some sort of combat effect instead, or limit the range of TP but compensate by a reduction in the CD timer.
Seems to me like hiding a poor 1v2 laner in the jungle is like curing a heroin addiction with cocaine (wooo, The Knick starts in less than two months!). Honestly, the analogy isn't off. If 1v2s are a genuine problem (they are) then Riot has ample tools (summoners, items) that they could turn to. The little conspiracist in me thinks that Riot has allowed what's happening in the jungle because they don't know how to fix the problems you noted above.
Any rate, I don't give two flying fucks about pro play. Riot has 20M+ players in the world and about 200 of them play professional. Fuck 'em, I'm trying to have fun. Let them adapt, it's what they're supposed to do.
Yeah make the game go back to "whoever makes their enemy top laner more irrelevant wins the game", that's always so fun to watch
Also let's be real here the tp change made an entire new wave of to p laners viable in pro play. Eliminating it would make top lane even more boring
Also let's be real here the tp change made an entire new wave of to p laners viable in pro play. Eliminating it would make top lane even more boring
Stone Ocean
Member
4v0s were way more interesting than this 3v0 bullshit because at least they were done with faster. When average first blood timers are between 10 and 15 minutes then the early game is too fucking safe.
Also TP made new top laners viable while making others not and ultimately strangleholds the entire fucking game because early aggression is pointless in most situations in every role and most of the mid/late aggression revolves around whether TP is up or not. It has zero drawbacks and in the end all it promotes is this stupid "do fucking nothing for 20 minutes because my top lane hypertank needs to scale" meta.
If ya'll want nothing but teamfights then just move competitive play to ARAM with draft.
Considering this was the game a couple months ago I don't see the difference
Also TP made new top laners viable while making others not and ultimately strangleholds the entire fucking game because early aggression is pointless in most situations in every role and most of the mid/late aggression revolves around whether TP is up or not. It has zero drawbacks and in the end all it promotes is this stupid "do fucking nothing for 20 minutes because my top lane hypertank needs to scale" meta.
If ya'll want nothing but teamfights then just move competitive play to ARAM with draft.
there's a few problems with what you're saying to me tho
first, it's not that pros hide top laners because they're weak like i dunno malphite is weak whatever. it's because 2v1 makes a lot of champions unviable. it's (partly) what killed things like shyvana and renek top, they just get zoned out by support+adc and either get dove or just scrounge for like 30 cs for the first 15 minutes
second, because of that double jungling actually has the opposite effect to what u mention. do u have a weak 1v2 top laner like riven or fizz? just double jungle for a bit and let them go back to lane with tp and a gazillion potions. if pros couldn't double jungle then it'd be even more maokai, gnar or i dunno sion who can like farm a bit from a distance
and third, while there's very few actually pro players, there's a shit ton of ppl that like watching pro play and 4v0 and 1v2 is a lot more boring than how the current game actually is. like 35m ppl watched worlds last year i think, so u can't just ignore pro play cos it matters to a lot of people
again, i'm not saying these issues don't trickle down negatively to solo q or whatever, but i feel like it's not that simple and it's easy for me to see how riot isn't too excited about messing with the natural order until they're sure it won't make things worse
that's na and only for the few teams that like playing that slow like tsm or liquid. teams like tip or clg or fnatic (or just korean and chinese teams and probably other good teams like ahq) make games a whole lot more exciting by being aggressive
but there's a pretty varied rotation of 2v1s, 4v0s, 1v1s, top lane is pretty different from game to game now and from team to team too
there's lulu, riven, fizz, maokai, rumble, it's a pretty varied roster and there's a lot of different strats team take
it's not perfect but i think it's the most entertaining top lane pro meta i can remember
BreezyLimbo
Banned
let's be real, if Riot tried to give a bonus XP to machete for only jungle monsters, they would break something so badly. That's a radical change that would cause the spaghetti engine to break.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
did u guys all forget when smite top and mid was a thing? decreasing jungle camp xp for anyone without a machete is pretty pointless if all people are gonna do is return to playing smite tops.
Kalista.
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