killatopak
Gold Member
Does Karma have subpar base damage? The only reason I think you should go AP on her is if her scaling is high.
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League of Legends |OT10| Botlane Was A Mistake, It's Nothing But Thresh
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
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Dreams-Visions
Member
I agree. I just feel like there's a time and a place. When your laners are behind that far, no greedy item you go for is going to recover the game. The path to a comeback is to be able to help your adc/mid/top by providing them vision, and by way of vision the ability to identify and take advantage of safe places to farm and catch up or at least get an item completed.
Nothing makes a match more abbreviated than roaming packs of fed champs that you never see coming, turning free pickoffs into objectives and ever bigger and better items. Though everyone should contribute a little to the vision on the map, in the above match champs like Corki just needed time and space. But that's just my general opinion. That match was over so fast, maybe it didn't matter. 40 kills in 24 minutes is quite the feat. Perhaps they simply decided to group and deathball and his team just kept dying like flies hitting a windshield. Commentary without a replay or at least the web version of the match isn't worth much either way.
My general point, however, is that when playing from behind, vision is the most important thing you can get for your team (along with completing your support item) as a support. That Frost Queen's might have kept Wu's ult from reaching his team's backline or provided an effective means of disengagement beyond her empowered slow/shield, for example. Once the match is stabilized, build AP to your heart's content. But there is no mid or late game if your team can't stay upright and farm in a reasonable amount of safety when playing from behind. The support needs to be of a mindset where they are looking to put the rest of their team in the best position to be successful in whatever that means from game to game and scenario to scenario. If my impression is wrong here, feel free to correct.
Stone Ocean
Member
She has decent bases and ratios, but if you don't build damage she only deals damage later on with mantra Qs.
She has some of the best base damage in the game. You don't build straight AP, you build MPen items. Morello is always a good pickup on AP supports though.
You have a sight stone already, which is already more than the ward limit. Like yeah, he should have probably got an upgraded sweeper, but that's not too different from a vision ward anyways. Also, something like Frostqueen is hardly gonna do shit to a Wukong.
Champions like Karma, Brand, Zyra etc can't be effectively played if you're going with utility heavy builds. They rely on doing damage.
Okay, you are doing it way wrong. You shouldn't need to spend that much on wards given the limit of three at a time. Sightstone + regularly buying pinks is usually enough.
Ocho pls. So condescending.
You only need to buy extra wards if:
- you know youre going to set up in one spot and then rotate to another lane
- you'll be taking objectives back to back (e.g. mid tower then drag)
- intend to not back for a while (sustain supports...)
I tend to run out of hp/mana which forces me to refill my SS anyway, and low tier games generally dont have enough rotations/objectives
- you know youre going to set up in one spot and then rotate to another lane
- you'll be taking objectives back to back (e.g. mid tower then drag)
- intend to not back for a while (sustain supports...)
I tend to run out of hp/mana which forces me to refill my SS anyway, and low tier games generally dont have enough rotations/objectives
Orochinagis
Member
I rarely buy pinks after I upgrade the green trinket to purple, is that bad?
Dreams-Visions
Member
alright, I'll make that amendment. though the context of the commentary was more about playing from behind, rather than when all is going reasonably smoothly. I feel like in that scenario, vision is still important enough to go beyond the 2 vision wards a sightstone provides at any given time, but I tend to think a defensive posture is usually what has to happen in this scenario. I'll go with a bigger focus on vision wards in the future. ty!
Not sure if typo but sightstone holds 4 wards, and all can be used towards your 3 vision ward limit.
Mostmanlyman
Member
I agree, I think she is like zyra, you still want a sight stone and to buy wards but you still want to go ap.
Dreams-Visions
Member
No, not a typo. Are you talking about a ruby sightstone? Or did the basic sightstone get buffed when I wasn't looking? It used to hold 4, of which only 2 could be placed from it at any time. You had to upgrade to a ruby if you wanted to use 3 wards from it at once. it used to be considered a very inefficient upgrade.
Have those things changed?
Stone Ocean
Member
That hasn't been the case ever since early S4
Yes, I'm talking about the basic sightstone and it was changed a while ago. Upgrading to Ruby isn't required now. Now you know.
killatopak
Gold Member
Mobi boots is also mandatory for supports right? Although there is the occasional Ionian boots for max CDR.
Yup. Regular Sightstone can place 3 at a time.
Ruby Sightstone is even worse of an upgrade now.
Pretty much. Although I never get Ionian boots. I sometimes get Mercs or Tabis (full ad team) depending on team composition.
That's just wrong. Pinks are very important.
Dreams-Visions
Member
well SHIT.
i'll just go cry in the corner now.
How many pinks would you recommend having on the map ideally?
Stone Ocean
Member
5 lol
Dreams-Visions
Member
stone pls
Meh, I usually back before the need to use more pinks. Pinks are important, yes, I expect my teammates to also carry the burden. However I also like items. Full AP full kill steal #dream.
Stone Ocean
Member
I mean, if we're talking ideally here you'll want all 5, but realistically speaking you'll want at the very least 3
killatopak
Gold Member
You can only place a single pink at a time so you might as well buy 2. The other one is if your first gets destroyed.
Orochinagis
Member
Aside for the health buff the ruby sighstone is kinda worthless right?
I sometimes forget to upgrade that item or upgrade it at the very end
I sometimes forget to upgrade that item or upgrade it at the very end
The more the better, pretty much. Since you can only place one as a single person just try to have that one up as much as possible. When playing as a support it's nice to have 1-2 pink wards as reserves in case you need to move the first one or it gets killed.
I thought you meant 2 per game. You can only hold 2 pinks at a time so any more there won't matter.
I usually get like 7-9 pink wards per game when I play support. If the enemies are bad at clearing them I buy less, naturally.
Lol no, I meant holding at one time. Had no idea 2 was the max, never tried getting more lol.
Dreams-Visions
Member
nor did I. I'm learning all kinds of new things. glad we had this random convo.
Mostmanlyman
Member
I going to be on tonight so if you guys want to play tonight I am down.
I think my normals MMR is just bonkers at this point! Tried going and playing one alone (happens extremely rarely but none of my friends have been feeling like playing) and this is how the game looked:
Not only that but bot we had Teemo and Xin Zhao, we were something like 5/0 and Lucian didn't want to team up to take mid and died alone (idk, these people were weird). The only challenge was Yasuo but after he was removed, Fiora could just steam roll! Anyway, I wouldn't mention this game if it wasn't because it gave me an S, and that meant...:
Not that it doesn't mean I'm not pure trash, but it feels good "accomplishing" on league after so long of not playing regularly! <:
Not only that but bot we had Teemo and Xin Zhao, we were something like 5/0 and Lucian didn't want to team up to take mid and died alone (idk, these people were weird). The only challenge was Yasuo but after he was removed, Fiora could just steam roll! Anyway, I wouldn't mention this game if it wasn't because it gave me an S, and that meant...:
Not that it doesn't mean I'm not pure trash, but it feels good "accomplishing" on league after so long of not playing regularly! <:
Dreams-Visions
Member
what time zone? we should probably just pick a time that works or East and West coast and just plan to do like...2 games/night? I think that'd be realistic and easily agreeable.
i was on my level 21 smurf with some friends who are level 19 and 23.
got matched up in blind pick with a diamond 5 cait, me as sivir.
git rekt u cnt
she was the worst kind of jerk, too. "oh im gonna pick on this lowly level 21 kid lololol wait wtf im getting destroyed", constantly harassing in lane and not even giving me an inch because fk u its blind pick try hard mode
of course I harassed her in the post game lobby "lol diamond sux rekt by level 21" "elo boosted" "where'd u buy ur account"
idgaf its my smurf imma be toxic
got matched up in blind pick with a diamond 5 cait, me as sivir.
git rekt u cnt
she was the worst kind of jerk, too. "oh im gonna pick on this lowly level 21 kid lololol wait wtf im getting destroyed", constantly harassing in lane and not even giving me an inch because fk u its blind pick try hard mode
of course I harassed her in the post game lobby "lol diamond sux rekt by level 21" "elo boosted" "where'd u buy ur account"
idgaf its my smurf imma be toxic
Mostmanlyman
Member
I am in central time, so like 7 or later should be good for me
I hadn't played jungle Hecarim since the nerfs he took to tone down lane Hecarim. Shit was rough. Three games, in the first two I had a feeder in each and on the 3rd a level 29 Yasuo smurf who destroyed my team. I had some real issues getting a handle on him, particularly his pre-9 sustain. I seemed to be low on mana all the time.
Fourth game I went man mode with Xin. Ended up losing but still put in a solid effort and felt way better overall. I looked up my match history and I apparently hadn't jungled in 2 months. Shit was rough.
I need to practice Hecarim more. I felt really, really uncomfortable playing him yesterday, just completely out of my element even though, in comparison to my teammates, I put up solid numbers. Felt bad enough to consider dropping him altogether. Gonna give it another go tonight, here's hoping it works out better. Thinking of picking up Sejuani again, or maybe giving Volibear another whirl. Thought about Vi but I really dislike how binary she is.
Fourth game I went man mode with Xin. Ended up losing but still put in a solid effort and felt way better overall. I looked up my match history and I apparently hadn't jungled in 2 months. Shit was rough.
I need to practice Hecarim more. I felt really, really uncomfortable playing him yesterday, just completely out of my element even though, in comparison to my teammates, I put up solid numbers. Felt bad enough to consider dropping him altogether. Gonna give it another go tonight, here's hoping it works out better. Thinking of picking up Sejuani again, or maybe giving Volibear another whirl. Thought about Vi but I really dislike how binary she is.
I feel like of all the current devourerer based jungles out there xin is the most legit. Ganks super well, is a super strong duelist and can fuck the shit up of a lot of non dev jungles, and scales into a late game monster.
And yeah I'm seeing a lot of sejuani again for somene reason
And yeah I'm seeing a lot of sejuani again for somene reason
Dreams-Visions
Member
xin is very scary if you have a bunch of immobile laners.
Mostmanlyman
Member
Yeah xin is crazy, I am glad more people don't play him, because i hate to play against him.
even if they're somewhat mobile. just lane gank, walk up and wait for them to dash away, then match it with E. it's too easy to gank as xin sometimes.
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
Xin Zhao, win now.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I remain fortunate as Jayce has 2 disengage tools. I never get knocked up. I can A gate away and simply knock him away if he lunges in. If he flashes to kill me, well that's the price tag associated with killing me on Jayce during laning phase.
can you send me a fr? I'm Ryotian (NA). I'd like to watch a good jayce player. But guess I can also go watch youtube vids.
At first Jayce and I hit it off great but after hitting mastery rank 2 (after bout 4 matches) I've just gotten beat down.
i mean, a good jungler will sneak into a lane brush, then wait for you to blow a cooldown (gate) before walking up to you. Knock him away? his E is still up.
a GREAT xin will ult flash you further into the danger zone
Dreams-Visions
Member
for sure! I'm Heavenly Hammer. I'll send one to you in a bit.
That doesn't happen against a Xin or a Wu for me. And he doesn't have the walking speed to get to me and start autoing from walking out of a bush with the stance switch movespeed buff without using E or flashing.
2 things I always make sure I have against Xin and Wu in particular:
1.) A Gate off cooldown if I don't know where here is.
2.) Boots sooner than usual.
Those are the only 2 champs I change my playstyle or build order to accommodate.
but that can. if he's willing to drop a 5 minute CD for the kill, I'm fine with that.
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