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League of Legends |OT2| So free, it's only 8000 USD!
- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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XeroSauce
Member
You aren't providing any arguments to the contrary; I never disagreed that Alistar is a strong support, and I even included him as a back-up in my argument.
Are you denying that Blitz pulls at early laning can destroy the enemy carry? Or what, am I misunderstanding this?
Yes? I mean not all pulls are guaranteed to kill. The AD carry has to be looking to follow up on Blitz's pull for anything meaningful to come out of it, and against some champions like Soraka or Ali it's possible to disengage from pulls or turn them to your advantage.
This is inherently the weakness with most Blitz play, even at fair levels of play. The player is looking too hard to get the grab off instead of considering the follow-through. The second a hook is missed all pressure from Blitzcrank vanishes from bot lane and he becomes vulnerable. If he is split from his AD carry he becomes vulnerable. If you engage on Blitzcrank he cannot do his job to split teams, and will come out the loser. He does poorly in 2v2 fights for this reason. His edge is his ability to start the fight, but he relies on it as well.
I didn't mean for what I said to be interpreted as, "Just let Blitzcrank grab you and kill him." But there are plenty of situations where you can look for Blitz to split from his carry and the danger of grabs greatly diminishes. His laning counters are both popular and powerful right now. Alistar is in a great place. Ezreal is in a good place. Leona and Taric are both in good places.
Get a few RP, she's on sale.
If you are IP starved like me, getting a few 6300IP champions on sale is a great way to conserve them and get interesting champs to boot.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
For me it's the opposite. Normals has all the trolls and ragers, not so much in ranked.
Wolf Akela
Member
How do you build Fiora? She's free in our region this week. I tried her and was aiming for the ff. in order:
- Merc Treads
- 1-2x Doran Blades (sell whenever)
- Bloodthirster
- Guardian Angel
- Tiamat
- Frozen Mallet
- Infinity Edge
It feels awkward... I was building her like Riven early on then threw a Tiamat in. I wasn't sure what else to put. I'm not feeling Atma for her.
- Merc Treads
- 1-2x Doran Blades (sell whenever)
- Bloodthirster
- Guardian Angel
- Tiamat
- Frozen Mallet
- Infinity Edge
It feels awkward... I was building her like Riven early on then threw a Tiamat in. I wasn't sure what else to put. I'm not feeling Atma for her.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35989721&postcount=6149
Avoid tiamat, it's a troll item for her (it's a troll item period). Ignore mallet, if you're going to die... you're going to die extra hp won't help. And you don't need the chase, that's what your q and e is for.
edit: That build I posted, it might be best go to for bloodthirster over IE now since you don't lose stacks when dying. But that's up to you.
edit2: And sodacop brings up a good point. They added Maw since i wrote that, and it's a solid item on her if you're up against a AP heavy top lane.
You ask Riot for a refund...
oh, nevermind.
Ferrio knows more about Fiora specifically but she scales best with flat AD. Tiamat is a troll tier item, even on Fiora because the range on it is so low. Lifesteal is core on her. Most top lane bruisers build dependent on the lane matchup, choosing Phage for AD matchups and Hexdrinker for AP matchups. I did this Fiora free week and had stomps with her, grabbing a vamp scepter early game and focusing on Bloodthirster as a core item. I would probably prioritize a Mallet over GA if you're looking to get tanky too when it comes to build order. You still have to mostly focus on building straight damage on her, which is why you never really see her.
Edit: See look, he replied before me and he already contradicted me. Maybe I'm just bad at Fiora but I hate not having any kind of lockdown on my bruisers, which is probably why I feel like I need Mallet on her.
Then die less!
Nonsense, all the pros use it. Mejai's all up in this bitch.
With Fiora I generally go Wriggles -> Triforce -> Infinity Edge. The wriggles is optional. You could even go Phage -> Inf Edge and some lifesteal. You need to choose your early items based on matchups. I can't give any solid advice here but any combo of:
Triforce + Any substantial lifeteal item + strong flat AD item are absolutely core. Triforce gives you maximum stickiness after a fight, lifesteal is needed for when you ult + cleanup. Damage is needed for uh, damage.
The reason lifesteal and triforce are super important is after your ult ends, every enemy is going to be super low health. You are going to be chasing them because you are easily the strongest duelest champion in the game. You do not want them running. Lifesteal ensures that at low health duels, you win. Since you scale harder than any champion, that lifesteal is going to be better than any other survivability as a fight ends. It also means when you use your ult you can go from half health to full.
You ideally want a lot of Flat AD, some attack speed and a decent chunk of Lifesteal. She scales really, really well with carry items and is easily one of the best cleanup champions in the game.
The tough part is finding an appropriate time to pick her. Make sure you have 2 of one of the following: tanky-ish mid (either a mid-range mid who will get RoA), a tanky support, or a tanky jungler.
For summoners: I roll with Flash for sure. But honestly, most summoners work fine on her. Cleanse, Ghost, Exhaust and Ignite are all very, very useful. I would try and go with ones that give you some escape or stickiness. I like ignite for early kills because it stops healing which can bait you pretty hard when you tower dive.
She's good against Darius (ult on reaction to his) and certain top champions who rely on on next hit abilities. You can W on reaction to many of these. I don't recommend her as a jungler, she relies heavily on farm.
Your general goal is let someone else initiate, run in, start auto-attacking what you can, ult the second a reactable CC points your way or you're about to take a huge chunk of AoE damage. Chase 2ish people and kill them. Ideally the person you ulted did not die and you can finish them off in 2 hits.
Remember that killing people refreshes E and it is easily the most powerful non ult steroid in the game.
Triforce + Any substantial lifeteal item + strong flat AD item are absolutely core. Triforce gives you maximum stickiness after a fight, lifesteal is needed for when you ult + cleanup. Damage is needed for uh, damage.
The reason lifesteal and triforce are super important is after your ult ends, every enemy is going to be super low health. You are going to be chasing them because you are easily the strongest duelest champion in the game. You do not want them running. Lifesteal ensures that at low health duels, you win. Since you scale harder than any champion, that lifesteal is going to be better than any other survivability as a fight ends. It also means when you use your ult you can go from half health to full.
You ideally want a lot of Flat AD, some attack speed and a decent chunk of Lifesteal. She scales really, really well with carry items and is easily one of the best cleanup champions in the game.
The tough part is finding an appropriate time to pick her. Make sure you have 2 of one of the following: tanky-ish mid (either a mid-range mid who will get RoA), a tanky support, or a tanky jungler.
For summoners: I roll with Flash for sure. But honestly, most summoners work fine on her. Cleanse, Ghost, Exhaust and Ignite are all very, very useful. I would try and go with ones that give you some escape or stickiness. I like ignite for early kills because it stops healing which can bait you pretty hard when you tower dive.
She's good against Darius (ult on reaction to his) and certain top champions who rely on on next hit abilities. You can W on reaction to many of these. I don't recommend her as a jungler, she relies heavily on farm.
Your general goal is let someone else initiate, run in, start auto-attacking what you can, ult the second a reactable CC points your way or you're about to take a huge chunk of AoE damage. Chase 2ish people and kill them. Ideally the person you ulted did not die and you can finish them off in 2 hits.
Remember that killing people refreshes E and it is easily the most powerful non ult steroid in the game.
Wolf Akela
Member
I went for Mallet since I thought the GA defenses were a bit wasted without some HP. I forgot about the Maw. Does its shield work with your MR too?
GA is less for the defense and more for the second life.
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
They had Sona, the game was over before it began.
Eh, most build suggestions for her are to get FM eventually. It's just not a priority vs BT / LW core and I'd rather have GA as my first "defensive" item (mostly the revive) than FM.
Jazzy Network
Member
Nunu Bot am got.
I hate Wriggles on almost any champion, but I would never want it on a character I want to snowball on like Fiora. It sets back your mid game so hard. The stats are very mediocre for the price unless you really need the passive for jungle clearing.
Also, I don't know why you would build Triforce on Fiora. She scales extremely hard with AD. The gold cost on Triforce is extreme, and it is built to enhance sustained damage and ability spam. Fiora is looking to burst. If you ulted and they're still alive you did it wrong and they'll burst you down.
What are you really going to get out of coming back to life on an ult reliant champion?
A penta kill? She still does a shit load of quick damage without her ult, and by the time your GA is spent your opponents should be pretty much dead. If they arent you weren't going to win anyways.
Get back to stacking those Tiamats and pray.
Eh. I don't usually find GA to work that way. If your opponents are pretty much dead but still around they won the fight and can easily focus you as you come up exactly when and where they expect you to. There's nothing stopping the team from having their cooldowns up as you come up to stun you and destroy you.
Alright. I don't think GA is a bad item but you are setting up another timer besides her ultimate that she's reliant on. In practice I think GA is more effective on naturally tanky champions who come back up hard to kill, or becomes a means of keeping an AD ranged carry potentially in the fight even if they go down right away.
And that's different from fiora going down? Both are carries. Either way she's not reliant on it, she's reliant on life steal and damage.
Ferrio you posted a game of you jungling Fiora while the enemy team feeds with AP Eve mid.
What do you really want me to say? That if the teams catch each other running wildly around the map without ward coverage at half health GA is a good item because you'll have more effective health than everyone else? Congrats on the Penta and all but c'mon.
Also your team carried you hard, almost lost, and you just happened to land killing blows because you stood out of the fight with your cooldowns up to come in at the right time.
What do you really want me to say? That if the teams catch each other running wildly around the map without ward coverage at half health GA is a good item because you'll have more effective health than everyone else? Congrats on the Penta and all but c'mon.
Never said it won the game, but I have had it turn fights around on more than just fiora. Besides, what else could I have at that point instead of GA? Also how did they carry me, that makes no sense. I was 16/2/14.
The fact of the matter is that a good Blitz pull can single handedly win games. A lucky pull over the base walls can turn games around. I remember one GAF game we were losing, the enemy team was doing Barron and in a last ditch effort, I did a blind grab into the Baron pit. I ended up pulling the enemy Ashe through, which enables us to then block the Barron, ace the enemy team and then win the game.
I don't think he's the best support by any means, but he's one of the few supports that can win games like that. That isn't to say other supports can't make big plays, but I don't think any of them can be game changers like Blitz.
XeroSauce
Member
You are underestimating a few things.
-Blitz's damage from his abilities and auto attacks
-The range of which Blitz can pull
-The reaction time of Blitz's AD
If my Blitz lands a pull, I hear the sound, I see it happening, and I immidiatly start attacking the person. If this is below level 6, we have a knock-up, damage, and the enemy carry has been pulled away from the support (and potentially into a bush or tower). If its above 6 we also have a blitz silence and a potential ashe ult, graves ult, varus ult. Blitz silence can also nullify the effects of the support coming in trying to help.
I dont know where you are coming with the "AD carry followup" comment, because I havent seen a single AD not follow up on a blitz pull properly. Even with the enemy carry's support coming in, the Blitz and me have already done enough damage and displacement to give us a proper advantage in the upcoming 2v2 fight, should it happen.
Alistar, Ez, Taric, these may not be availible or picked against a Blitz. Just because a few supports can subdue some of the damage done, doesnt mean that the pull was useless, unless the pulled victim is farther ahead then the Blitz and his carry, and can do enough damage to 'cancel out' the damage taken.
EDIT: Also, any support becomes weak when split from their carry, not just Blitz. Alistar blows cooldowns and the autos.
Blitz blows cooldowns and then autos. Every support does this.
I outlined my arguments.
Wriggles is a high amount of defense, gives you obscene objective control + enables easy buff steals. It's not necessary, but it's a good lifesteal item you can use to win your lane easily. It's just as easy to just get a Vamp Scepter here.
Triforce + Wriggles is great because Fiora already has incredibly high steroids, but has an absolute necessity to be sticking. Q + E do an okay job at it, but MS + Phage proc mean you will never, ever, ever, ever be escaped from. She also hits a lot of buttons and has high base AD which means Triforce proc is very useful. It is of my opinion that Triforce is the single best item you can get on Fiora besides Infinity Edge, and that you should get it afterwards.
The last point is really silly though. Your ult isn't going to gib the entire enemy team. This doesn't happen. Ever. It will do a lot of damage, yes, but you are going to be left standing with a couple of people. Triforce ensures they die no matter what and Phage is really important to her mid game unless you snowball super, super hard.
I have something like an 80% winrate with Fiora and this build is very good vs combatting AD Bruisers and having a strong late game at the same time.
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
i don't even.
this game. honestly.
Getting your AD carry grabbed in the Baron pit sounds like a case of this to be honest.
I feel like all supports are game changers, maybe it's just not as obvious when they do it though.
Seems pretty unlikely. I used to play a lot of Blitz to the point where I could solo lane him effectively. There are many supports capable of doing or enabling more damage than Blitzcrank.
I get it. I know how the champion works. First of all if you are pulling the carry away from the support how are you hitting the support with the silence in this scenario? I never said Blitzcrank couldn't kill people. I have no idea where this is coming from. Yes if you land a perfect fist you are probably going to get a kill. The same could be said for any support landing their CC perfectly. I don't even know what you are trying to argue about.
All I'm saying is that you can take advantage of Blitz's preditcable positioning and potentially abuse him, particularly when you know Blitzcrank can't pull into immediate damage or stop you from attacking the enemy carry.
Alistar is one of the most popular picks/bans right now. Taric is extremely high up on the chart too. The chances of seeing them in game is really high right now.
Other supports are able to support more from a range or want to be in your face anyways. Other supports offer harass or ranged hard cc to escape when alone. Blitzcrank is extremely tethered to proper positioning in relation to his carry because he cannot do anything unless they are ready to come in and start a 2v2 fight. If the enemy harasses Blitz or his ally down and Blitz is unable to initiate a fight he can win he suddenly becomes worthless in lane. No other support is like that. At least Leona can disengage and protect with her tankiness.
Wolf Akela
Member
Twitch Spotlight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFtH_wFJBLs
Black Cleaver is going to be so much better on him now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFtH_wFJBLs
Black Cleaver is going to be so much better on him now.
I don't understand what any of this has to do with Fiora. She doesn't have the potential to counter jungle and steal buffs. You are top lane and not controlling dragon. You don't need defense on a damage carry who is supposed to snowball, and Lantern is a pitiful amalgamation of defensive stats anyways.
If she has high steroids why are you building stuff like Zeal? You don't need anything other than a Phage to stick, and sometimes you don't even need that. Sheen is pointless. It has a two second cooldown and Fiora will be lucky to live long enough to proc it more than twice. I have no idea where the gold for all of this is magically coming from. If you move in to mid game with Trinity Force and Wriggles you will still have no survivability and you will get exploded before your sustain damage can come out.
Oh wow, an 80% win rate. You either played 5 games or you're 2600 ELO and unstoppable.
blitz after level 6 he can do good damage with his R (very low cd + silence), even if he missed grab he still have his e+r combo.
blitz and leona have good end game capabilities to help the team with their kit more than characters like soraka.
I can't keep doing this. I can't keep taking the posts in this thread seriously.
Look at what you guys are writing. Look up numbers, ever. Just...I mean I don't even know what to say.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Hilarious ARAM. 4v5, AP Rammus, me dying once (missed a lot of early-game kills due to having Philo Stone and boots, never found the right time to tower suicide).
http://i.imgur.com/1hXDk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1hXDk.jpg
He's right though... soraka's downfall has always been endgame. I don't think I've seen anyone else argue that it wasn't.
You guys know that GA is used mostly on Ranged AD Carry and Tank/Tanky DPS, right? For anyone else it's just a massive waste because AD Carry and Tanky DPS will be high priority targets. Secondly, GA is not an item you just simply rush. It's a late game item (your 4th-6th item) that you build for team fights. For any other utility it's massively useless.
But it's not true. Why do you think people can run Soraka mid, farm hard and crush?
Here is what I'm reading: These CC based champions scale well in to late game. This AP scaling champion doesn't scale well in to late game. Soraka will press R and instantly heal her entire team for more HP than your entire life is worth on Blitzcrank or Leona.
Do you really think the barrage of nerfs over the last year aimed at Soraka that are still coming in to this very day are because she falls off late game? Why do I even have to write up a post about how good Soraka is? I don't understand.
You are completely correct. In late game, CC will always trump stats or whatever crap you have, with the exception of the AD carry. Why? It's disabling utility is extremely useful. It can literally make a play to end the game right then and there. CC is a unquantifiable aspect of the game that scales exceptionally well. AP do not at all. If you lose before the 30 minute because of an AP, it's because mostly they snowballed and you didn't have the damage that match up with the utility. Once it gets to endgame, almost everyone will have the same damage output pretty much rendering number stats useless.
What the fuck. Are you guys trolling me?
I misread your post. I assumed that what people were saying is what you were saying. And i'm being entirely serious in my post. It's true. Look at games past the 40 minute mark for pro-tournaments. It speaks as a testament to what I just said.
But we're talking support, why is she suddenly mid? Of course she'd do better midding than a support blitz. If she's support she's going to have little to no ap, so her ap scaling doesn't mean squat.
why, with blitz/leona/alistar you can transition to support tank and help their teams with incredible cc potential. soraka beside her silence dont have alot to offer unless you are building ap items on her to increase her heal potential.
you cant even protect the carry with soraka late game but u can with the other supports.
also, i think alistar is the best support in the game because he can heal in the lane phase and provide so much cc in the end game to protect the carry.
I would say that any team with a certain amount of CC potential will essentially trump any team in endgame as long as they have a competent AD carry. There's a reason why TSM always banned Alistar in the previous MLG. Even if he wasn't jungling, his CC potential was too high and yielded many problems in games.
Good mentality, but you're forgetting the other half. You have to also blame your teammates. If you solely blame yourself or solely blame others then you're not gonna get better. True story.
Crowd control is either static throughout the game (like knock ups) or scales based on level (i.e. Lulu Polymorph). These disables become less useful as the game goes on because survivability goes up the longer the game goes on, and CC based champs are unable to provide more beyond maxing out CDR.
This is why if you jungle Ali you don't sit in your jungle and farm because you are expecting to blow up late game. You gank. And you gank. And you gank. Because CC is strongest during the early and mid phases of the game. This is it's highest point of potential and when it is most devestating. I am not saying it isn't useful late game, but it simply does not scale outside of CDR. Your Blitzcrank will not knock people up higher in to the air just because you got to late game. Soraka will build some AP depending on her gold situation or build. If we are talking about two supports with full or nearly full item sets, which would best define scaling, Soraka will pick up AP on top of her CDR. She has the potential to scale past champions like Blitz and Leona in terms of usefulness and all of her abilities will gain something from both the CDR she builds and the ability power she picks up.
I don't really know why I am trying to explain this to people who think Soraka will have no AP late game and offers nothing outside of her silence.
This is why if you jungle Ali you don't sit in your jungle and farm because you are expecting to blow up late game. You gank. And you gank. And you gank. Because CC is strongest during the early and mid phases of the game. This is it's highest point of potential and when it is most devestating. I am not saying it isn't useful late game, but it simply does not scale outside of CDR. Your Blitzcrank will not knock people up higher in to the air just because you got to late game. Soraka will build some AP depending on her gold situation or build. If we are talking about two supports with full or nearly full item sets, which would best define scaling, Soraka will pick up AP on top of her CDR. She has the potential to scale past champions like Blitz and Leona in terms of usefulness and all of her abilities will gain something from both the CDR she builds and the ability power she picks up.
I don't really know why I am trying to explain this to people who think Soraka will have no AP late game and offers nothing outside of her silence.
They don't, but a Janna or Soraka with gold will fuck your shit up worse than any Ali could ever hope to.
yoyo other people scale too you know
if a support gets gold, they don't spend it on some badass item, they get aegis or shurelias man
or more wards or oracles, COSTS MONEY MAN
I can't tell if we are talking about support champs or support role, ofc ap soraka and ap janna are devastating
if a support gets gold, they don't spend it on some badass item, they get aegis or shurelias man
or more wards or oracles, COSTS MONEY MAN
I can't tell if we are talking about support champs or support role, ofc ap soraka and ap janna are devastating
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