Not true in the slightest. Disables become more and more useful as the game goes on. CC is what changes and creates plays. Having an Alistar CC comboing into your team as your AD carry starts shredding them is way more important than some AP healing moron that is keeping your team alive. CC is much much much more useful than stats endgame since people will have the same relative stats, ie.) damage, tankiness, etc.
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Not true in the slightest. Disables become more and more useful as the game goes on. CC is what changes and creates plays. Having an Alistar CC comboing into your team as your AD carry starts shredding them is way more important than some AP healing moron that is keeping your team alive. CC is much much much more useful than stats endgame since people will have the same relative stats, ie.) damage, tankiness, etc.
What AP items has she picked up that give her a sizable boost then? Also your CC argument is flawed. Late game CC isn't about killing people like it is early game, it's about keeping your AD alive who is doing the damage. Soraka has NO peel, who cares if she can heal for 500 hp, your AD is dead if they get touched.
TSM banned Alistar every game because he is a specific counter to the AOE team comps and champions they run.
I hope you are not still just building Aegis, Shurelias, wards, and oracles at the 40 minute mark on your support.
oh duh, im getting like a zekes or something too
or an fh or something
and you have to realize your cc/scaling argument is ridiculous, that's like saying I should pick up another AD instead of blitz and get crazy items with the massive amount of gold ill have by 40:00, much better than having my non-scaled cc
or an fh or something
and you have to realize your cc/scaling argument is ridiculous, that's like saying I should pick up another AD instead of blitz and get crazy items with the massive amount of gold ill have by 40:00, much better than having my non-scaled cc
No. Have you watched, listened to any of their commentary, vlogs, and thoughts on their team comp? They ban because of his CC potential. It's way. Too. High. That's the only reason.
EDIT: Also, Ferrio is right. There are only three things that are important in late/endgame. 1.) AD Carry compentent enough to position himself properly and shred everyone. 2.) CC that can disable their team. 3.) Tanks that can keep their AD carry away and soak up damage. That's it.
Others did their part and for now I'm calling it a shitty day, but if I lose so many matches, I must be doing something wrong. It's a thing I don't understand about this game, sometimes it feels so random how we can beat someone to a pulp and the next match we get destroyed.
I need to do some "not-die" relearning too. Been dying way too much these days, even if I did ok.
This kinda made my day though (kitties + lux = :3)
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I don't know.
I'd rather have an Alistair making enemies useless with combo CC so I can kill them easily than a Soraka healing me while the enemy Graves fires one extra shot or something to kill me.
I'd rather have an Alistair making enemies useless with combo CC so I can kill them easily than a Soraka healing me while the enemy Graves fires one extra shot or something to kill me.
Dear god. It's late game. It's a team fight. Not every champion needs peel to protect because that should exist in other places on your team and your AD carry should be able to position somewhat correctly to not just be five man dived. Soraka gives huge amounts of survivability to her carry through armor, MR, and health regen. The point is that people attacking the carry will not be able to kill them. Survivability increases into the late game. Team fights last longer. CC becomes less meaningful because it does not last longer.
This is seriously the worst this thread has ever been. Why am I explaining the basics of how the simplest support in the game works?
Zekes is only viable with very specific team comps and it isn't a great pickup on caster supports. Someone else on your team probably should have built Frozen Heart. Soraka still scales from these items so what is your point? Why did you not build Wota like a sensible person?
The longer the game goes the more available gold there is. So yes, having champions that scale well into that late game would be good.
Nautilus has more CC than Alistar and he went through many ban phases for TSM. Please stop talking about things you know nothing about.
Probably the stupidest fucking thing about League of Legends I have ever read that discounts any of the strategy, hard work, and damage potential of your jungler, top lane, and mid.
There is literally not even logic to the things you guys are saying anymore.
Your explanations reveal knowledge of early,mid, early-late game at best. It doesn't remotely describe late/endgame at all. I don't think you understand how endgame works at all.\
EDIT: Alistar has more potential hard CC than Naut. Naut simply has his Q and his Ult as his hard CC. Alistar has a push and a surround knockup up that refreshes quite quickly. Yeah, Alistar is definitely less threatening than a Naut late game.
What is Naut's passive? What is a slow?
What do you think your smart ass sarcasm looks like when your game knowledge is so low?
Your attitude at trying to degrade opponent's intelligence in combination with weak arguments is extremely annoying. It show that you lack a way to communicate properly, clearly do not know how to have an argument or some level intelligent discourse, and a failure to show even the slightest bit of common courtesy. Even if you were right, I couldn't care less and you're speaking to an empty crowd.
EDIT: if you're so adamant that your belief is more correct than ours and you want to actually prove it then go post it on the LoL forums or some other place that can match your intelligence. I guarantee you that they will say that CC is more important than some AP.
The point I was trying to make was towards the nature of the item a support should be making (fairly CHEAP, good UTILITY)
look it really is simple, I don't know why you need to nitpick ridiculous little things
supports don't get too much money and what they do get usually goes towards necessary and situational things, not luxury items. If they do make it all the way to get some luxury items, then you are playing an awfully unskilled match.
supports are picked situationally to fit with the team. soraka is known for making her lane hard to gank from the mostly physical damage threats. but hey guess what, you can also fuck up a lane that has a soraka in it, and there is nothing she can do about it. same goes for a lot of "bullshit" or cheese lanes
blitz is known for putting people on edge and creating an offensive lane, and he can stop ganks pretty decently with his girth and cc etc, but his lane needs to take care of itself and not get chunked by random ez qs and what not
just because there are other champs that can peel and stuff doesn't mean you can't use more. do you think that at the point a support can start building their luxury scaling items (read:usually NEVER), they are even putting a dent into the other team? Wota is a good (situational) support item no doubt, but you're fooling yourself if you think the AP has any role in that at the stage you can build the item.
Comparing Alistar and Naut's cc is also apples and oranges. THE HEADBUTT, ITS QUITE UNIQUE.
You say things that make sense, but you are arriving at very weird conclusions. Does Soraka make it hard for you to kill someone? Sure! (ARMOR) Does cc make it hard for you to kill someone? Yes! OF COURSE I would like to have more sustain against someone I can't CC like Olaf. It would be GREAT if I could knock up a gap-closer so whoever he's targeting can reposition. No I will NOT be getting a pentakill with my wota soraka, or saving my carry with heals if I can't stop the ungodly onslaught of the enemy team.
CDR is crucially important on supports. They are usually the last ones standing, and it can mean more utility.
I don't really know how to explain to you that CC is more important than helping your support scale into late game. Supports aren't supports because they can make some gigantic shield that the enemy team has to break through in the late game. People complain about Soraka because she makes it tough to aggress early on, but these people just don't know how to construct better situations. SUPPORTS ARE PLAYMAKERS, not damage dealers or mobile fountains.
and look, don't bother trying to nitpick little things about my post, I'm sure there are things I'm overlooking or I don't care to write down, but try to understand the point I'm trying to make and the nature of the support role. If you disagree with me on THAT we can actually find out more about each other's opinion, but if we can't then the discourse is just two people talking at walls.
look it really is simple, I don't know why you need to nitpick ridiculous little things
supports don't get too much money and what they do get usually goes towards necessary and situational things, not luxury items. If they do make it all the way to get some luxury items, then you are playing an awfully unskilled match.
supports are picked situationally to fit with the team. soraka is known for making her lane hard to gank from the mostly physical damage threats. but hey guess what, you can also fuck up a lane that has a soraka in it, and there is nothing she can do about it. same goes for a lot of "bullshit" or cheese lanes
blitz is known for putting people on edge and creating an offensive lane, and he can stop ganks pretty decently with his girth and cc etc, but his lane needs to take care of itself and not get chunked by random ez qs and what not
just because there are other champs that can peel and stuff doesn't mean you can't use more. do you think that at the point a support can start building their luxury scaling items (read:usually NEVER), they are even putting a dent into the other team? Wota is a good (situational) support item no doubt, but you're fooling yourself if you think the AP has any role in that at the stage you can build the item.
Comparing Alistar and Naut's cc is also apples and oranges. THE HEADBUTT, ITS QUITE UNIQUE.
You say things that make sense, but you are arriving at very weird conclusions. Does Soraka make it hard for you to kill someone? Sure! (ARMOR) Does cc make it hard for you to kill someone? Yes! OF COURSE I would like to have more sustain against someone I can't CC like Olaf. It would be GREAT if I could knock up a gap-closer so whoever he's targeting can reposition. No I will NOT be getting a pentakill with my wota soraka, or saving my carry with heals if I can't stop the ungodly onslaught of the enemy team.
CDR is crucially important on supports. They are usually the last ones standing, and it can mean more utility.
I don't really know how to explain to you that CC is more important than helping your support scale into late game. Supports aren't supports because they can make some gigantic shield that the enemy team has to break through in the late game. People complain about Soraka because she makes it tough to aggress early on, but these people just don't know how to construct better situations. SUPPORTS ARE PLAYMAKERS, not damage dealers or mobile fountains.
and look, don't bother trying to nitpick little things about my post, I'm sure there are things I'm overlooking or I don't care to write down, but try to understand the point I'm trying to make and the nature of the support role. If you disagree with me on THAT we can actually find out more about each other's opinion, but if we can't then the discourse is just two people talking at walls.
It is impossible to have intelligent discourse when all one side has to offer are tantamount to posts that read like they are trolling with misinformation and bullheadedness. I presented an argument about how scaling on abilities exists in this game and that these abilities will inherently outclass abilities like crowd control that do not scale as more gold funnels itself into the game. All I got were paragraph upon paragraph of nothingness screaming about crowd control late game, grounded on essentially nothing but a victim complex.
Soraka was the second most picked champion at Dreamhack Summer and had a winrate over 80%. Other massive play makers with huge winrates? Oh right, AP mids like Karthus, Anivia, and AP Kog'maw. These sort of things are readily apparent to people familiar with where the meta is right now and can easily be found if any of you were willing to do even the slightest bit of research. But you have no facts or actual arguments to present beyond useless babbling.
Yes I know. But AP scaling helps late game. This whole thing is founded around the fact that people said Soraka is bad late game, which is wildly untrue.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
It's like solo queue in here.
I don't even have to launch the game now to enjoy some delicious rage.
Dance in My Blood, this superiority complex of yours might not earn any favors, but it is entertaining.
Please, continue.
I don't even have to launch the game now to enjoy some delicious rage.
Dance in My Blood, this superiority complex of yours might not earn any favors, but it is entertaining.
Please, continue.
I definitely agree that Soraka is good late game. Her armor scales well, and her silence is super long, and a global heal is huge.
I think they were just trying to say that they prefer the cc, which is their preference. I guess I would get confused if someone thought that Soraka was worse than any other support late game, each support brings something great.
I think they were just trying to say that they prefer the cc, which is their preference. I guess I would get confused if someone thought that Soraka was worse than any other support late game, each support brings something great.
Wolf Akela
Member
Don't forget her AoE MR shred... -12 MR per Q, stacking up to -120.
well, my whole argument is that supports with good amount of cc transition much better into late game than soraka.
soraka provide passive laning phase with ton of sustain which is good for laning to keep ur carry farming without problems but in the late game she wont have tons of presence like other supports.
dont forget that soraka/alistar is getting nerfs every month now to make other supports more viable.
soraka provide passive laning phase with ton of sustain which is good for laning to keep ur carry farming without problems but in the late game she wont have tons of presence like other supports.
dont forget that soraka/alistar is getting nerfs every month now to make other supports more viable.
Never said she's bad, but lategame is her weaker phase. If I had a choice of having a equally farmed support late game blitz/ali or a lategame soraka on my team it'd be blitz/ali in a heartbeat.
what soraka doesn't do is help your team pick the fights they want to fight. and this talk of only bads get hooked is incorrect, good blitz's create "even if I miss I can't miss" situations a la http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20G17K_0ghU, but that also isn't the only way to land a hook. in lane, good blitzes scare the shit out of the enemy by charging at them with powerfist on. they lose cs by running like ninnies, and if you hit them, free hook.
ok now I see where soda is coming from. you are comparing situational scenarios; it's soraka armor and heal for stopping dives and making sure the AD lifesteals enough to survive or the initator can take that much more damage vs. ccing and allowing repositioning vs. making a pick off a group
soraka is just as weak late game as any other support, but they still do amazing things in teamfights. armor and heal is an amazing EHP boost
she can't initiate, but she can stop the ezreal's e. blitz can initiate and force a fight, but he can easily be put in a position where that is a bad idea. you rather having a blitz/ali speaks towards the situations you privilege in the late game, but these situations vary (can I turtle the stronger enemy team until the next baron fight? am I stronger than them and I want to force fights? are we fighting in the middle of the lane, in the jungle, at baron, etc.? am I trying to keep the enemy damage out of the fight long enough for our team to gain the advantage in a teamfight? or am I trying to get my team to hunker down and duke it out?)
edit: I mean, what's the point of an ali/blitz if you are getting poked the fuck down and starting fights with half health. Soraka definitely excels at prolonged siege, and in some cases turtling (though if a siege is taking too long, most teams will just run off to take an objective).
Also it is my belief that the best reason to run blitz is to last hit people with q so you punch them to death.
ok now I see where soda is coming from. you are comparing situational scenarios; it's soraka armor and heal for stopping dives and making sure the AD lifesteals enough to survive or the initator can take that much more damage vs. ccing and allowing repositioning vs. making a pick off a group
soraka is just as weak late game as any other support, but they still do amazing things in teamfights. armor and heal is an amazing EHP boost
she can't initiate, but she can stop the ezreal's e. blitz can initiate and force a fight, but he can easily be put in a position where that is a bad idea. you rather having a blitz/ali speaks towards the situations you privilege in the late game, but these situations vary (can I turtle the stronger enemy team until the next baron fight? am I stronger than them and I want to force fights? are we fighting in the middle of the lane, in the jungle, at baron, etc.? am I trying to keep the enemy damage out of the fight long enough for our team to gain the advantage in a teamfight? or am I trying to get my team to hunker down and duke it out?)
edit: I mean, what's the point of an ali/blitz if you are getting poked the fuck down and starting fights with half health. Soraka definitely excels at prolonged siege, and in some cases turtling (though if a siege is taking too long, most teams will just run off to take an objective).
Also it is my belief that the best reason to run blitz is to last hit people with q so you punch them to death.
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
^Your priorities are all wrong.
I'll find... something.
(catching up on this thread so I'm reading older posts after newer posts)
I'll find... something.
(catching up on this thread so I'm reading older posts after newer posts)
I think you're facetious when you say "only dumb players get hooked." In the case I referenced, the player was playing at the 1600 Elo level. Blitz is a super common pick even in tournament games because a good Blitz can hook people.
Yes, there are dumb ways to get hooked (standing by the mid turret walls when you know Blitz is nearby, running on the outside of the base walls). But Blitz's skillshot no different than other skill shot - with the right positioning, you can hit it pretty regularly.
I mean, honestly, what you're saying can be said about any skill shot. Are people that lose to Ahri shitty players because they got hit by a taunt? If someone gets chunked by a Corki bomb, are they bad? I just don't get how Blitz is any worse off than other skill shot champs in that regard.
That's dumb positioning. To be honest both of them can eat a little bit of poke and do initiating. You should know these types are there to eat stuff so squish and support isn't.
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
Or are yours all right...steamception
=<And we're not even halfway done yet.
If you lack initiation in your team comp, you probably don't pick soraka. If you already have an initiator soraka is a great pick for a dominant late game and all her aforementioned qualities (MR shred, armor, healing, silence). Don't underestimate that silence in a teamfight. 2.5 seconds is a LONG time to be unable to flash, ult, etc.
Even the pros have differing opinions on this stuff. I watch a crs SYTKO quite a bit and he thinks Blitz is one of the most useless laning supports there is. He may be able to initiate late game, but you have to get there first.
And really guys, on thing Dance has right is the AD carry doesn't carry the game alone. There are some monster mid/top lane/jungle champions that can carry late games.
Either way, this would be a very boring game if there was only one viable strategy.
Even the pros have differing opinions on this stuff. I watch a crs SYTKO quite a bit and he thinks Blitz is one of the most useless laning supports there is. He may be able to initiate late game, but you have to get there first.
And really guys, on thing Dance has right is the AD carry doesn't carry the game alone. There are some monster mid/top lane/jungle champions that can carry late games.
Either way, this would be a very boring game if there was only one viable strategy.
Aww, I always miss the fun stuff. I was just chiming in about Soraka's lategame in general. I've also heard Allistar falls off lategame as well and I will argue against both.
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
Your all building Fiora wrong. Stop insulting my Wifu~! Get BT -> berserker G -> stak phantom dancers all day -> rape.
Good gravy, GAF was down for me for half a day and when I come back Dance in My Blood is arguing with half the thread. Relax everyone, I'm here to pull his agro again.
Also I just looked it up and Blitzcrank silence DOES only last 0.5 seconds. It's no wonder that tenacity Irelia was basically unaffected by it, lol.
Also I just looked it up and Blitzcrank silence DOES only last 0.5 seconds. It's no wonder that tenacity Irelia was basically unaffected by it, lol.
Barrel Cannon
Member
Has Leona gotten a buff recently. I played leona yesterday night after a long time of not using her and didnt realize how hard her E and Q hit :S. Accidentally stole 3 kills yesterday in the first 10 minutes at bot.
In Irelia's defense, her passive with merc treads absolutely destroys any durational cc. It's pretty crazy. One time Shen's taunt lasted not even a quarter of a second.
Such a wonderfully designed champion.
Yeah. For some reason this was what I initially thought too and other people as well but it's not actually true. The reason is that she doesn't have a reliable CC, her W is pretty useless endgame unless you have massive attackspeed and her Q isn't a reliable damage dealer despite it being a gap closer. In short she has no good CC initiate making her overshadowed by other picks which could be better for team comp. She would essentially dive to take damage and possible CC but it's hard for the team to follow up her initiate. Dyrus and Wick'd made these points btw.
I think it's more apt to say that Soraka falls off for offensive-first team comps since Healing scales with HP/Mitigation and CC scales with DPS (that is, each point of healing is better and better as HP/Mitigation increase and each second of CC means more and more as DPS increases). That's why Ali/Blitz get more love recently with certain teams and Soraka on others.
As for Irelia, she just falls into the whole "melee, kind of easy to die" problem
But, that's mostly late game where practically everyone melts to a fed AD Carry. She also lacks some utility (e.g., Riven can stun) that other options have.Just shows you how the game continually changes. Irelia was a top tournament pick or ban not even 4 months ago and Wickd was the top Irelia player.
The nerfs to her and Atmas hit her pretty hard but besides that, her kit hasn't changed. She's never had reliable CC and the W while active hasn't changed (so during teamfights it would provide the same damage today as it did 4 months ago). Player thinking changes as often as the game does.
I just think that my limited and mostly meaningless experience tended to agree with the people who are like "Well, we won the early game and we're doing good, time to dedicate the next 25 minutes to attempting to shut down and contain Irelia". She became a huge pain to deal with endgame, and a better duelist than most other champions I was aware of, or at least seemed that way.
Meta shifts and small tweaks here and there, I guess. It's interesting, personally, but I like theorycrafting and figuring that out :x
My experience (pre-30, mind) is that top lane gets to snowball harder than they "should" according to higher ELO play. I'd imagine it's just something that happens as the ELO climb occurs and tanky DPS starts carrying less and less / "holy shit, that Graves/Ez/etc. pew pew" happens more and more.
Also, top lane carries like Irelia really shine at the "I have 1-2 finished items" stage of the game. I've carried I think 90% or so of my games as Riven since around here is where most games I've played fall apart rather than 10-15m later and where AD Carries melt everything.
Maybe there's not a general answer to this, but is it a good idea to focus on finishing items rather than building parts?
Often I find myself being like, well I need some lifesteal, I'll build the skull staff. But I don't have enough money for a BF sword yet, so I won't finish bloodthirster. And I like a chance of slowing, so I'll build the little mallet. Or maybe I'll build sheen because sheen is cool. But then I end up with 5-6 items, maybe one slot for wards, and I can't really buy more stuff because I didn't finish anything. I kind of wonder if I would be more effective rushing something like triforce, or IE, or bloodthirster, before buying parts for more items. The above question/items would be specifically for a tanky DPS roles I suppose.
*edit* Obviously this wouldn't apply to gold items since you want to keep those as long as possible.
Often I find myself being like, well I need some lifesteal, I'll build the skull staff. But I don't have enough money for a BF sword yet, so I won't finish bloodthirster. And I like a chance of slowing, so I'll build the little mallet. Or maybe I'll build sheen because sheen is cool. But then I end up with 5-6 items, maybe one slot for wards, and I can't really buy more stuff because I didn't finish anything. I kind of wonder if I would be more effective rushing something like triforce, or IE, or bloodthirster, before buying parts for more items. The above question/items would be specifically for a tanky DPS roles I suppose.
*edit* Obviously this wouldn't apply to gold items since you want to keep those as long as possible.
XeroSauce
Member
I've seen Irelia's jungle, and do top lane without farming properly..she can become nothing more then a stun bot if you shut her down hard enough with jungler ganks. She can be weak early (but the stun and trus damage can surprisingly bust you if you aren't careful) but at level 6 and level 9/10, most other top laners can beat her depending on how good their ultimate is, because hers is really not great for anything past Sheen procs and clearing waves.
Generally, I find myself building 2-4 'core' items for any character at the beginning, and then from there I focus on building completed items. e.g. Jax I get boots + 3 pots, then get a revolver + boots 2 + mana sapphire as my core. After that I go for completed items like FM, but I don't build like, a sheen unless I'm trying to complete a tri-force since it isn't part of my 'core'. Or for annie, I go boots + 3 pots again to start, and my 'core' set is sorc shoes, chalice, and maybe a couple doran's or kage's pick depending on how well I did in lane/what I feel like. After that I focus on building rabadon's, then DFG, then zhonya's, and still have my chalice until I decide I want to build athene's.
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