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scy

Member
Maybe there's not a general answer to this, but is it a good idea to focus on finishing items rather than building parts?

Often I find myself being like, well I need some lifesteal, I'll build the skull staff. But I don't have enough money for a BF sword yet, so I won't finish bloodthirster. And I like a chance of slowing, so I'll build the little mallet. Or maybe I'll build sheen because sheen is cool. But then I end up with 5-6 items, maybe one slot for wards, and I can't really buy more stuff because I didn't finish anything. I kind of wonder if I would be more effective rushing something like triforce, or IE, or bloodthirster, before buying parts for more items. The above question/items would be specifically for a tanky DPS roles I suppose.

*edit* Obviously this wouldn't apply to gold items since you want to keep those as long as possible.

I don't go back unless I can afford things and I don't go back unless lane is empty (dead or they backed) or I pushed them up to tower and want to let them push back out. So, generally speaking, I go back the first time at around 950-1000 gold (Doran's x2 / Boots2 if more necessary) and I don't need to back again unless it's for my BF Sword. If I'm back because I died, then plans change and BF Sword is on hold for something to help me recover in lane immediately.

So ... build to complete your core items basically. It keeps you in lane longer (e.g., farming longer) as well since you're waiting for a certain amount of gold for the item rather than "I went back with X gold can't buy BF Sword, guess I'll do Y instead." So, for Riven, I aim for my Boots2 + BT as early as possible and then I worry about LW or GA or Hexdrinker or whatever I need. I try to get those items completed instead of having a piece of each.

I'd divert if and only if you need the item help now due to losing lane / being behind on farm.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
Maybe there's not a general answer to this, but is it a good idea to focus on finishing items rather than building parts?

Often I find myself being like, well I need some lifesteal, I'll build the skull staff. But I don't have enough money for a BF sword yet, so I won't finish bloodthirster. And I like a chance of slowing, so I'll build the little mallet. Or maybe I'll build sheen because sheen is cool. But then I end up with 5-6 items, maybe one slot for wards, and I can't really buy more stuff because I didn't finish anything. I kind of wonder if I would be more effective rushing something like triforce, or IE, or bloodthirster, before buying parts for more items. The above question/items would be specifically for a tanky DPS roles I suppose.

*edit* Obviously this wouldn't apply to gold items since you want to keep those as long as possible.

I've been using a phage setup with my typical and I found it works.

Build order

Doran or Boots/Pots
Phage if I get lucky in farm or if fed any kills early game BF sword.
Beserker Greaves
IE
Zeal
Cloak of Agilty
PD

After this point I decide most games what to do from a variety of items. Usually blood thirster, full bloodrazor, veil, or gaurdians angel are what I look in to seeing the usefulness in.

I would only build two main items max especially if they have for 3 or 4 items to build in to.
 

Merovin

Member
Love ranked sometimes, first game everyone instalocked positions that had already been picked, second game, we were winning by a long stretch, just taken Baron and our jungler goes "I gtg so i win" and just suicides into their team and went afk.
 

Volimar

Member
I've been using a phage setup with my typical and I found it works.

Build order

Doran or Boots/Pots
Phage if I get lucky in farm or if fed any kills early game BF sword.
Beserker Greaves
IE
Zeal
Cloak of Agilty
PD

After this point I decide most games what to do from a variety of items. Usually blood thirster, full bloodrazor, veil, or gaurdians angel are what I look in to seeing the usefulness in.

I would only build two main items max especially if they have for 3 or 4 items to build in to.

For me it's:

Boots+pots
Phage
Greaves
Vampiric scepter while I work on IE
Zeal
Then it's usually BT, but sometimes I finish PD or FM if I need the stats, Last Whisper if I need the pen, or rarely GA... Then I try to finish everything as the game goes on...
 

brian!

Member
standard build is usually

boots pots
dorans to not get shit on by ganks and exchanges
beserks, vamp scept
ie if you need to shred some fools, bt if you need to be in sustain fights
pd
lw if armor, ie/bt
qss or ga

but do whatever works for you dude! I see you running dat cleanse ghost, even though fotm is flash ignite, but run with what's comfortable to you.
 

scy

Member
I'd like to note that builds also depend largely on the character in question, not just the role (or, basically, not all AD tops are the same). Though I am kind of surprised at the amount of Phage first responses in general.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
I think you're facetious when you say "only dumb players get hooked."
It's a joke.

Still, there are things you just need to be aware of when you're playing against someone like Blitzcrank, and there is warding that needs to be done in a certain way. If you know Blitz is in a game you are going to alter the way you play. Of course there is the potential for Blitz to make plays, but in many situations getting grabbed implicates a failure on the person grabbed to position properly, or for their team to have warded properly.

If you get grabbed over the wall at Baron for example on a squishy champ, then yeah, a mistake was made.
Never said she's bad, but lategame is her weaker phase. If I had a choice of having a equally farmed support late game blitz/ali or a lategame soraka on my team it'd be blitz/ali in a heartbeat.
Soraka is a walking sustain battery. What happens if the enemy team pokes yours down while healing up and holding full mana easily? In certain cases she will turn games around just because your team doesn't have to be as reliant on picking up blue for your mage.
I think it's more apt to say that Soraka falls off for offensive-first team comps since Healing scales with HP/Mitigation and CC scales with DPS (that is, each point of healing is better and better as HP/Mitigation increase and each second of CC means more and more as DPS increases). That's why Ali/Blitz get more love recently with certain teams and Soraka on others.
Offensive team comps can still use Soraka to poke or dive. Having a huge armor and MR boost on the person initiating the fight can be really helpful, especially when it comes to tower diving.
Good gravy, GAF was down for me for half a day and when I come back Dance in My Blood is arguing with half the thread. Relax everyone, I'm here to pull his agro again.

Also I just looked it up and Blitzcrank silence DOES only last 0.5 seconds. It's no wonder that tenacity Irelia was basically unaffected by it, lol.
I forgot to mention yesterday that CC is potentially more irrelevant than ever when bruisers like Irelia and Olaf are extremely safe and strong picks.
Just shows you how the game continually changes. Irelia was a top tournament pick or ban not even 4 months ago and Wickd was the top Irelia player.

The nerfs to her and Atmas hit her pretty hard but besides that, her kit hasn't changed. She's never had reliable CC and the W while active hasn't changed (so during teamfights it would provide the same damage today as it did 4 months ago). Player thinking changes as often as the game does.
She is still a top pick. She showed up a bunch at the last few events and was the most picked champion at the last big tournament and her winrate was one of the highest. Wickd is a crybaby who threw a fit over his favorite champ being nerfed, but it turned out she was still stupidly good.
Maybe there's not a general answer to this, but is it a good idea to focus on finishing items rather than building parts?

Often I find myself being like, well I need some lifesteal, I'll build the skull staff. But I don't have enough money for a BF sword yet, so I won't finish bloodthirster. And I like a chance of slowing, so I'll build the little mallet. Or maybe I'll build sheen because sheen is cool. But then I end up with 5-6 items, maybe one slot for wards, and I can't really buy more stuff because I didn't finish anything. I kind of wonder if I would be more effective rushing something like triforce, or IE, or bloodthirster, before buying parts for more items. The above question/items would be specifically for a tanky DPS roles I suppose.

*edit* Obviously this wouldn't apply to gold items since you want to keep those as long as possible.
Completed big items are usually a huge stat boost. This is why games usually snowball. Some pro was talking about this, but I forget who it was.
 

Samyy

Member
I'd like to note that builds also depend largely on the character in question, not just the role (or, basically, not all AD tops are the same). Though I am kind of surprised at the amount of Phage first responses in general.
.

Yea I never build phage, delays carrying ability for quite some time.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
The Twitch Spotlight stuff kind of god lost last night, but wow. It's really a bad spotlight. Now I know that Twitch/Alistar can beat Morgana solo while Eve hangs out in bot lane from time to time though.
 

scy

Member
Offensive team comps can still use Soraka to poke or dive. Having a huge armor and MR boost on the person initiating the fight can be really helpful, especially when it comes to tower diving.

Yeah, I don't mean to say she's not good with offensive team comps just that if you're setting one from the ground-up for a 5v5 situation, she's not as good as Ali/Blitz for the teams built for them. She's still solid in most every situation, probably one of the easiest supports to just slot into teams.

I forgot to mention yesterday that CC is potentially more irrelevant than ever when bruisers like Irelia and Olaf are extremely safe and strong picks.

CC isn't really irrelevant just because a few good tops/junglers can work around it, however. It's something to worry about, especially with both Irelia/Olaf loose. If we get a solid AP Mid with the same "fuck off CC!" effect, I do wonder what that'll mean for the meta...

Or, hell, what happens if it's an AD Carry.

Completed big items are usually a huge stat boost. This is why games usually snowball. Some pro was talking about this, but I forget who it was.

I'd imagine every single one would. It just makes the most sense to get the bigger items and get the best value for your gold. The exceptions being if you lose lane and need something that very moment to compete ... but, even then, that's really only if you get behind massively.

Yea I never build phage, delays carrying ability for quite some time.

That and it's not super helpful for many champs in top lane. Trinity Force characters aside, you get a low amount of AD and some decent HP with a slow proc. Most heavy aggressive laners will just run in and out for the trades so higher AD is generally better than the combination of stats. I don't find the proc that great for pursues but I do play Riven/Jayce primarily so that skews things.

It vs Doran's is another matter, I suppose, but the value of Doran's is a lot better, especially for high AD scaling champs. The fact they don't upgrade into anything doesn't matter that much when I finish most games with 4 items (Boots2 / BT / LW|GA|Maw) and don't pursue Trinity Force / Frozen Mallet. If I did get one of those two, I'd consider it more often I guess.
 

Blizzard

Banned
CC isn't really irrelevant just because a few good tops/junglers can work around it, however. It's something to worry about, especially with both Irelia/Olaf loose. If we get a solid AP Mid with the same "fuck off CC!" effect, I do wonder what that'll mean for the meta...

Or, hell, what happens if it's an AD Carry.
Don't forget Alistar's "You can't stop me from getting to your carry" ult. Okay maybe it's not dramatic but still. And Gangplank has his oranges. Normally I don't think Gangplank is very good but last night one kept using parley for like 1200 mixed damage. Mixed damage has all the powers of magic and physical, so damaging. :(
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
I am ready for Gangplank to come back with his mana return buff next patch. He used to be my main but I can't play him that much anymore.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
I hear Xerath is pretty good if you grab an early Deathfire Grasp. Did it and crushed, but I counter picked a Kat so who knows if Xerath is actually good.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
It'd be cool if you could actually random into a champ for more gold like Dota. As it is now it's pretty much just trolling to random last pick.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
Ya.. but unlike dota extra gold wouldn't help that much. Not enough cheap starting items.
It's just kind of more fun, and it adds at least a little incentive to random. I don't know enough about Dota to say if it is actually that helpful or not.
 

mercviper

Member
Wow that's a very shitty thing from Valve, if they encourage bad/random team comps.

I don't know if DOTA2 kept that mechanic. The extra gold thing for random is something from the original WC3 map mod.

Edit: Looked at the forums a bit and it seems it was kept.
 

Inskipp

Member
Pendragon banned someone for randoming. He didn't even get to face the Tribunal. :(
Here is Pendragons response to that pic.


Pendragon said:
Here's my version:

Ranked solo queue ~1470 elo.

Last pick, his desired roles are taken, hard-randoms to force a dodge, gets gangplank, picks smite/flash (already had a jungler).Has a history of similar behavior, has a pending Tribunal case. I decided to speed up the justice process.
Every time Pendragon posts and does something in relation to community bans I feel like he is conducting a psychology experiment with Lyte or something. It makes me uncomfortable that he seems to be encouraging the 'bloodlust' for user's bans, which seems counter intuitive to his stated mission, which is to have a positive community
I don't want bloodlust, but I definitely want people to feel ownership over the health of the community. There are people who don't belong here, who don't fit in with the community's ideals and desire to have some semblance of sportsmanship and positivity in their games.

If this guy can't see that what he does makes the community worse, I'm perfectly fine without him, and nobody else should tolerate this type of toxic behavior either.
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Pendragon banned someone for randoming. He didn't even get to face the Tribunal. :(

Yeah, that's what I call fucking abuse of power. It's retarded especially if you see the thread where Pendragon posts his reasons essentially outlining that: he would've been reported and been sent to the tribunal anyway so he just sped up the process. This kind of mentality is retarded. Either take out the fucking random button in ranked or just auto ban anyone who uses random. It's not fucking hard. Stop banning people from the game because you're incompentent or have employees who just abuse their powers.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Yeah, that's what I call fucking abuse of power. It's retarded especially if you see the thread where Pendragon posts his reasons essentially outlining that: he would've been reported and been sent to the tribunal anyway so he just sped up the process. This kind of mentality is retarded. Either take out the fucking random button in ranked or just auto ban anyone who uses random. It's not fucking hard. Stop banning people from the game because you're incompentent or have employees who just abuse their powers.
Except as detailed above, it wasn't that he picked random being a bit of a jerk in a normal game.

He supposedly picked random (in a ranked game?) as the last person, attempting to screw over another team member by forcing one of them to dodge, refused to work with the team, and was being an ass about it in the chat, AND HAD A HISTORY of behavior like this. There are tons of people who do semi-griefing behavior like this, and having one instantly nuked (for 3 whole days) instead of reported for some potential eventual punishment seems fine to me. Don't act like a jerk in chat, don't pick double jungler in ranked as a troll move, etc. It's not rocket science.
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Did you read his response?

Yeah, I read it. Even if what he said is true, why the hell wouldn't you report him after the game rather than straight up banning him? Give him the same treatment as everyone else let him go through the fucking process. Just because you have the power and the ability to do shit on the fly doesn't mean you should fucking do it. It's retarded and even if it was for a just reason it's abuse of power. If he really deserved to be banned, the Tribunal should deem it. This "speediness" of dealing out justice is a crap excuse from Pendragon to save his ass.

EDIT: This is essentially catching a criminal and just killing him on the spot because you realize his crime and his previous criminal history and you deemed that he was going to get the Death Penalty. It's absolutely bananas for people not to give the guy a process that everyone else goes through. It's an abuse of power and essentailly him going around doing things as he deems fit rather than letting the system fucking decide.
 

scy

Member
Eh, it's hard to feel bad for the guy when all signs point to him being an ass anyway. Granted, it doesn't necessarily excuse "I can ban him so I will" but ... still.
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Eh, it's hard to feel bad for the guy when all signs point to him being an ass anyway. Granted, it doesn't necessarily excuse "I can ban him so I will" but ... still.

Oh yeah, I don't feel bad for the guy at all. Clearly he was being a dick from what I've read. However, this doesn't excuse Pendragon for the shit he does. This is not the first time I've seen him do this as well.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
I agree that it should still go to tribunal. That's like a judge sentence someone as guity without getting a trial.
Eh. It's not some legal system. Some dude is a dick who ruins games and he got banned for three days. There is no problem with people getting banned through means other than the Tribunal.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Yeah, I read it. Even if what he said is true, why the hell wouldn't you report him after the game rather than straight up banning him? Give him the same treatment as everyone else let him go through the fucking process. Just because you have the power and the ability to do shit on the fly doesn't mean you should fucking do it. It's retarded and even if it was for a just reason it's abuse of power. If he really deserved to be banned, the Tribunal should deem it. This "speediness" of dealing out justice is a crap excuse from Pendragon to save his ass.

EDIT: This is essentially catching a criminal and just killing him on the spot because you realize his crime and his previous criminal history and you deemed that he was going to get the Death Penalty. It's absolutely bananas for people not to give the guy a process that everyone else goes through. It's an abuse of power and essentailly him going around doing things as he deems fit rather than letting the system fucking decide.
Take a step back. You're equating the death penalty with a jerk playing a game having one of his accounts suspended for THREE DAYS.
 

Tomat

Wanna hear a good joke? Waste your time helping me! LOL!
Wow that's a very shitty thing from Valve, if they encourage bad/random team comps.

If it's that bad you can always repick and lose the extra gold.

Not really sure I like that Pendragon shit either. Slippery slope.
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Take a step back. You're equating the death penalty with a jerk playing a game having one of his accounts suspended for THREE DAYS.

Okay fine. The police just puts him in jail for 3 days rather than having gone through a trial that would sentence him. It doesn't have the finality tone of death, but my point still stands that Pendragon is doing whatever the fuck he wants because he can and sees the situation as he sees fit rather than letting him go through the Tribunal. No persons is special whether it be an admin, a rep, or not. They should abide by the set rules or it's abuse of power. Granted there are no rules saying this but I feel this is an unspoken and ethical principle behind what Pendragon is doing and I don't agree with it or enjoy it.
 

Inskipp

Member
Even if what he said is true
Why would he lie?

kayos90 said:
Pendragon is doing whatever the fuck he wants because he can
He saw the guy acting like a dick in the same room as him, checked his history and noticed that he had a history of being a dick. He simply utilized his authority.

Also, I don't think he really wants to ban anyone. But he doesn't hesitate, whenever there's reason to it.
 

garath

Member
Yeah, I read it. Even if what he said is true, why the hell wouldn't you report him after the game rather than straight up banning him? Give him the same treatment as everyone else let him go through the fucking process. Just because you have the power and the ability to do shit on the fly doesn't mean you should fucking do it. It's retarded and even if it was for a just reason it's abuse of power. If he really deserved to be banned, the Tribunal should deem it. This "speediness" of dealing out justice is a crap excuse from Pendragon to save his ass.

EDIT: This is essentially catching a criminal and just killing him on the spot because you realize his crime and his previous criminal history and you deemed that he was going to get the Death Penalty. It's absolutely bananas for people not to give the guy a process that everyone else goes through. It's an abuse of power and essentailly him going around doing things as he deems fit rather than letting the system fucking decide.

No, this is the equivalent of a guy speeding down the highway with a cop in his car. He is breaking the rules, he got caught. He got a suspension for it. The tribunal is a supplement to riot policing the game. It's there to filter through all the people that Riot can't possibly follow up on with any size staff.
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Why would he lie?

I'm not saying he did. I'm just taking the hypothetical stance just for the sake of. I was trying to make the point that it doesn't really matter if he was telling the truth or not. In other words, my position still stands unconditionally.

No, this is the equivalent of a guy speeding down the highway with a cop in his car. He is breaking the rules, he got caught. He got a suspension for it. The tribunal is a supplement to riot policing the game. It's there to filter through all the people that Riot can't possibly follow up on with any size staff.

Except a cop giving a ticket is the process and final step in punishment. That's not the case in LoL. We have an entire procedure that was skipped over (The Tribunal) hence why I used a trial example rather than the one you mentioned above. In your example, a speeding ticket doesn't need a trial unless you're contesting it. Therefore the process IS the police writing the ticket.

No, this is the equivalent of a guy speeding down the highway with a cop in his car. He is breaking the rules, he got caught. He got a suspension for it. The tribunal is a supplement to riot policing the game. It's there to filter through all the people that Riot can't possibly follow up on with any size staff.

Uh... iIf anything, it would be the other way around. Tribunal is the main thing and stuff that Pendragon is doing would be the supplement since Tribunal is much more widespread, efficient method, rather than an individual doing stuff.
 

Tomat

Wanna hear a good joke? Waste your time helping me! LOL!
No, this is the equivalent of a guy speeding down the highway with a cop in his car. He is breaking the rules, he got caught. He got a suspension for it. The tribunal is a supplement to riot policing the game. It's there to filter through all the people that Riot can't possibly follow up on with any size staff.

Using a feature Riot put into the game is breaking the rules? if randoming is that big of a deal, take it out of ranked games.
 

kiunchbb

www.dictionary.com
I agree that it should still go to tribunal. That's like a judge sentence someone as guity without getting a trial.

Tribunal was just there to get players more involves, not implemented as a check-and-balance system.

For comparsion sake, it is like a cop using the tazer on someone for self defense, as long as it is justified, I see no problem.
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Using a feature Riot put into the game is breaking the rules? if randoming is that big of a deal, take it out of ranked games.

That wasn't why he was banned so it's sort of irrelevent. But yes I do agree that Random should be removed to discourage this type of behavior.
 

garath

Member
I'm not saying he did. I'm just taking the hypothetical stance just for the sake of. I was trying to make the point that it doesn't really matter if he was telling the truth or not. In other words, my position still stands unconditionally.



Except a cop giving a ticket is the process and final step in punishment. That's not the case in LoL. We have an entire procedure that was skipped over (The Tribunal) hence why I used a trial example rather than the one you mentioned above. In your example, a speeding ticket doesn't need a trial unless you're contesting it. Therefore the process IS the police writing the ticket.

Unless you are speeding so bad that it's reckless and you get your car impounded.

It's a three day suspension. The guy was obviously trolling in a ranked game. Not sure what else to say.

This isn't a legal system. The tribunal is there to HELP police the monstrous community of LoL. There's absolutely no reason to take a jerk out of the rotation for a few days if spotted by an admin.


Using a feature Riot put into the game is breaking the rules? if randoming is that big of a deal, take it out of ranked games.


come on, that's not even relevant to the conversation. He was obviously trolling and actively ruining the experience for others. The roles were laid out there, he was last pick and being a jerk.

Uh... iIf anything, it would be the other way around. Tribunal is the main thing and stuff that Pendragon is doing would be the supplement since Tribunal is much more widespread, efficient method, rather than an individual doing stuff.

I don't know if I'd call the Tribunal efficient. I stand by my position. If Riot thought it worth the investment, they could hire thousands of admins to police games by a strict set of rules. That's not feasible so they created the Tribunal to assist in the policing of the community. The tribunal requires someone to have MANY violations over a period of time before they even show up. Then you need a community voting system to determine if they were breaking the rules. THEN action happens. I'd much rather crap players be dealt with immediately by an admin. In this case - THE admin.

last edit on this post:

I don't know why you prefer someone to be a repeat offender, ruining games for others over and over before finally having some consequences for their actions (i.e. the tribunal) when you can have someone with authority observe the behavior and hand out a small punishment right then and there. It's not like he was perma banned. Even then, perma bans are reviewed BY RIOT. They are the final say here.
 

scy

Member
Using a feature Riot put into the game is breaking the rules? if randoming is that big of a deal, take it out of ranked games.

The issue wasn't so much the random itself but that "I guess I'll random so one of you guys will dodge for me" was what he was doing.

Though, I do agree that random should probably be taken out of ranked games anyway.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
Though, I do agree that random should probably be taken out of ranked games anyway.
Not really even worth the dev time it would take probably. It's not like pressing it locks you in. Just don't troll or you should expect to get banned.
 
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