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[kayos90]

I'm pretty sure no passives proc spellvamp. Only abilities.

Akali.

I just don't think nashor's is that great for her. Maybe as a vanity item but otherwise no.

I've been running with ~8% cdr, and haven't had any issues. Her two biggest skills don't need cdr (Q and R), so it'd be mainly for your shield and slow. But just getting straight up AP for the shield would be better.

As the attack speed... like I said I rarely find myself just smacking on someone alot. Maybe 2-3 swipes between the combos. Not sure how much more damage nashor's would really buy you. I think heavy ap is better, since it ups your damage and survivabily, and makes it so when your 3rd strike does hit.. it hits like a truck. Like I said... if her passive procs spell vamp, but don't think it does. I never noticed it doing it when I bought a WoTA. Overall I don't think lifesteal/spell vamp is that great for her since she already has her shield. Would be a different story if her passive did... but that thing is already WTF strong already.

Thinking Rabadon, Sorc Boots, Lichbane will be her core items for sure. Secondaries Abyssal, Rylais, Guardian Angel.

Nashor's tooth isn't a good item in general imo. Same with that other item... uh... Malady.


Anyway, I think despite her kit, Diana works much better as a bruiser. She has the stats for it mid game as long as you build it probably and she can constantly proc her passive.

 

[scy]

I just don't think nashor's is that great for her. Maybe as a vanity item but otherwise no.

I've been running with ~8% cdr, and haven't had any issues. Her two biggest skills don't need cdr (Q and R), so it'd be mainly for your shield and slow. But just getting straight up AP for the shield would be better.

More CDR opens up the possibility of getting Q -> R -> Q -> R -> ... with minimal delay (.6s, technically). Though that's mostly being cute rather than being something necessary. But that's also off the logic of triple GP5 into Shurelya's, Randuin's, and DFG (35% CDR).

Nashor's in the build is basically assuming not getting one of these, though it's still an overcap (25% CDR on it).

As the attack speed... like I said I rarely find myself just smacking on someone alot. Maybe 2-3 swipes between the combos. Not sure how much more damage nashor's would really buy you. I think heavy ap is better, since it ups your damage and survivabily, and makes it so when your 3rd strike does hit.. it hits like a truck. Like I said... if her passive procs spell vamp, but don't think it does. I never noticed it doing it when I bought a WoTA. Overall I don't think lifesteal/spell vamp is that great for her since she already has her shield. Would be a different story if her passive did... but that thing is already WTF strong already.

I do agree that AP is most likely going to be better. I was going into Diana thinking Tanky/AS for her passive would be the way to go. After trying her, I still think it's viable but her playstyle, and ratios anyway, makes AP the obviously better choice right now. Lets her do the damage she needs and her passive AS (+ runes/masteries) is enough to get her passive firing at a decent rate.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

The power of Anti-CC.

 

[Ferrio]

Akali.



Nashor's tooth isn't a good item in general imo. Same with that other item... uh... Malady.


Anyway, I think despite her kit, Diana works much better as a bruiser. She has the stats for it mid game as long as you build it probably and she can constantly proc her passive.

Ya the games I've ran she's been pretty tanky. Abyssal, Rylais, even a guardian angel one game. Going to try less tanky and more damage next game. Rab->Lichbane. Then maybe some def.

 

[Blizzard]

As the attack speed... like I said I rarely find myself just smacking on someone alot. Maybe 2-3 swipes between the combos. Not sure how much more damage nashor's would really buy you. I think heavy ap is better, since it ups your damage and survivabily, and makes it so when your 3rd strike does hit.. it hits like a truck. Like I said... if her passive procs spell vamp, but don't think it does. I never noticed it doing it when I bought a WoTA. Overall I don't think lifesteal/spell vamp is that great for her since she already has her shield. Would be a different story if her passive did... but that thing is already WTF strong already.

My build for jungle (still experimenting though, put my comments for each).

-cloth/5
-boots lvl 1
-Dorans ring
-Sorc boots
-Sheen -> lichbane
-Rylais or Abys. Abyssal is more preferable, but sometimes I want the slow and extra hp.

From there there's lots of solid choices. Rabadon, Abys/Rylais (whichever one you don't got yet), Void Staff etc. Think it may be game dependant.

Thinking maybe I shouldn't rush lichbane so quickly, and instead go rabadon. It's a bit more expensive, The MR, mana and movement speed from it is really nice though... but the rabadon is way more damage output and a good amount of shield. Going to experiment more.

Currently running attack speed reds, armor yellows, cdr blues, movement quints. 21/9/0.


I'd say her jungle is damn good. Her jungle clear is fast, she takes minimal damage, and her ganks are good pre six, excellent post six.

I think my two main questions/concerns are:

1. Everyone talks about how powerful her passive is. Maybe AS reds are the key thing here since I probably don't have those in stock. But, how do you get it to hit? Is there an icon like for Caitlyn that tells you when your next hit will trigger the passive (I didn't see one)? Or is E + R always enough that you manage to get three autoattacks in before the enemy is in tower range?

2. Without MR blues or mercury treads, I suppose tenacity is probably not a problem unless someone finds you in the jungle (no escape besides slowing with 15-18s cooldown E). However, what about your absolute base MR? Is the idea to depend on bot and top lanes to not have much magic damage (which seems reasonable), combined with the shield?

It sounds like people are saying the best strategy is to treat her like AP sion and build enough AP that it is hard for people to kill the shield.

 

[zkylon]

Akali.

Either I'm missing something or you still need to Q/E/R with Akali to proc her passive's spellvamp.

 

[Ferrio]

I think my two main questions/concerns are:

1. Everyone talks about how powerful her passive is. Maybe AS reds are the key thing here since I probably don't have those in stock. But, how do you get it to hit? Is there an icon like for Caitlyn that tells you when your next hit will trigger the passive (I didn't see one)? Or is E + R always enough that you manage to get three autoattacks in before the enemy is in tower range?

No there's currently not a counter. Some people are asking for it though.

2. Without MR blues or mercury treads, I suppose tenacity is probably not a problem unless someone finds you in the jungle (no escape besides slowing with 15-18s cooldown E). However, what about your absolute base MR? Is the idea to depend on bot and top lanes to not have much magic damage (which seems reasonable), combined with the shield?

She's one of the few champions that has MR per level (same as tanks), so she has that. You pick up abyssal if you need more. As for being ganked in jungle, she has one of the highest base movement speeds in the game. Combine that with movement quints and her slow... well it's hard to catch her.

 

[kayos90]

This is me theorycrafting here but I'm seeing her build as the following

Bruiser: Merc Treads, Frozen Heart, Wit's End, Lich Bane, Guardian's Angel, Hextech Gunblade/Rylais(prefereably Ryali for tankiness)

Assassin: Merc/Sorc boots, Rabadon's, Hextech Gunblade, Rylais, Lich Bane, Abyssal

 

[Blizzard]

She's one of the few champions that has MR per level (same as tanks), so she has that. You pick up abyssal if you need more.

Thanks, I did not know that. The bot game case was also probably unrealistic since bot games tend to put a 500+ magic damage nuke in every lane instead of just one lane.

Also, does maxing Q or W first work best in your experience? I first figured W was good for junglers, but it goes up in mana cost so quickly (90+) that I thought Q might be better for more damage without increased mana cost. The Q cooldown may go down too. I forget. In that case maybe leave W at level 2 early, and only get E at 4-5 unless ganking at level 3?

 

[bjaelke]

I'm pretty sure no passives proc spellvamp. Only abilities.

Grandmaster's Might's (Jax) passive procs it. So does Sona's Power Chord. They may just be the exception to the rule though.

This is me theorycrafting here but I'm seeing her build as the following

Bruiser: Merc Treads, Frozen Heart, Wit's End, Lich Bane, Guardian's Angel, Hextech Gunblade/Rylais(prefereably Ryali for tankiness)

No Trinity Force?

 

[Ferrio]

This is me theorycrafting here but I'm seeing her build as the following

Bruiser: Merc Treads, Frozen Heart, Wit's End, Lich Bane, Guardian's Angel, Hextech Gunblade/Rylais(prefereably Ryali for tankiness)

Assassin: Merc/Sorc boots, Rabadon's, Hextech Gunblade, Rylais, Lich Bane, Abyssal

Hextech is a waste on her. She does barely any physical damage.

Thanks, I did not know that. The bot game case was also probably unrealistic since bot games tend to put a 500+ magic damage nuke in every lane instead of just one lane.

Also, does maxing Q or W first work best in your experience? I first figured W was good for junglers, but it goes up in mana cost so quickly (90+) that I thought Q might be better for more damage without increased mana cost. The Q cooldown may go down too. I forget. In that case maybe leave W at level 2 early, and only get E at 4-5 unless ganking at level 3?

For Jungle, Start with a W, max Q. W doesn't get lower cooldowns per level, and she clears fast enough that she barely takes damage in jungle with just one rank.

I think maxing W in lane might be more viable, but I'd still side with Q.

And ya, get E if you're going to gank, if not save it for 4. I've been getting it and 3 and trying for a gank... but it's completely worthless in the jungle.

 

[kayos90]

Thanks, I did not know that. The bot game case was also probably unrealistic since bot games tend to put a 500+ magic damage nuke in every lane instead of just one lane.

Also, does maxing Q or W first work best in your experience? I first figured W was good for junglers, but it goes up in mana cost so quickly (90+) that I thought Q might be better for more damage without increased mana cost. The Q cooldown may go down too. I forget. In that case maybe leave W at level 2 early, and only get E at 4-5 unless ganking at level 3?

It depends. Honestly I think you should be maxing QWE in that order.

Hextech is a waste on her. She does barely any physical damage.




For Jungle, Start with a W, max Q. W doesn't get lower cooldowns per level, and she clears fast enough that she barely takes damage in jungle.

I put it in there because of life steal proc, the slow, and AP scaling. I would honestly use Rylai's instead too.

 

[scy]

Also, does maxing Q or W first work best in your experience? I first figured W was good for junglers, but it goes up in mana cost so quickly (90+) that I thought Q might be better for more damage without increased mana cost. The Q cooldown may go down too. I forget. In that case maybe leave W at level 2 early, and only get E at 4-5 unless ganking at level 3?

WQWE and then R > Q > W > E is what I've been doing; I'd probably just do WQQE, R>Q>W>E in general though.

Q is -1s/level for the cooldown while remaining 55 mana; W is +10 Mana/level.

 

[Blizzard]

I think maxing W in lane might be more viable, but I'd still side with Q.

And ya, get E if you're going to gank, if not save it for 4. I've been getting it and 3 and trying for a gank... but it's completely worthless in the jungle.

I think Q even in lane would be good, since it's such a low cooldown for a high AP ratio, and you can use it twice almost for the same cost as W...and without having to get in someone's face.

And haha about E. I had this horrible reflex to press it in the jungle as some sort of combo reflex, and then feel stupid as the red buff would bounce towards me a little bit, taking no damage.

 

[Ferrio]

No Trinity Force?

So many wasted stats:
-Critical Strike
-The after ability damage
-The attack damage.

You go lichbane if you want to go down that route.

 

[kayos90]

Grandmaster's Might's (Jax) passive procs it. So does Sona's Power Chord. They may just be the exception to the rule though.


No Trinity Force?

Are you Phreak? OMGGGGG

 

[garath]

Akali.

I meant damage that occurs from passive proc'ing a spellvamp item. Not a passive that specifically gives spellvamp.

Grandmaster's Might's (Jax) passive procs it. So does Sona's Power Chord. They may just be the exception to the rule though.

cool. I didn't know that

 

[zkylon]

What's better against minions for AP mids, 2 points in Brute Force mastery or 2 for Butcher?

 

[scy]

What's better against minions for AP mids, 2 points in Brute Force mastery or 2 for Butcher?

Butcher will do more damage to them but I'd rather have the AD for general harassing of your opponent.

 

[bjaelke]

So many wasted stats:
-Critical Strike
-The after ability damage
-The attack damage.

You go lichbane if you want to go down that route.

For the "regular" bruiser builds you usually don't stack enough AP to make Lich Bane efficient. That's why I asked about Trinity Force. Use her abilities as utility spells rather than damage spells. I don't know if it would work, that's why I'm asking.

 

[Mothman91]

Gave my friend the option to pick support or jungle because those were the last two roles left in our game. He said he'll pick Xin jungle, so I proceeded to pick Lulu. By the time lane phase ended, I found out he never went lantern...

I wanted to pull my hair out, I don't know you can jungle efficiently without lantern. He was my level(9) while everyone else was 11-12. Don't think I'll ever allow him to jungle ever again.

 

[Snowman]

Gave my friend the option to pick support or jungle because those were the last two roles left in our game. He said he'll pick Xin jungle, so I proceeded to pick Lulu. By the time lane phase ended, I found out he never went lantern...

I wanted to pull my hair out, I don't know you can jungle efficiently without lantern. He was my level(9) while everyone else was 11-12. Don't think I'll ever allow him to jungle ever again.

Is he new/never jungled before? Probably your fault for not telling him to get it to be fair

 

[Ferrio]

I have a friend that just started playing due to some guys he knew from another game suckering him in. He was talking about how they were good etc and I should play with them. Joined a couple of their games.... oh god.

These are guys with 800 wins, playing with no jungler, not buying boots 20 minutes in the game... and having 50 CS end game. At champ selection I knew it was going to be bad when I saw all the surges and clarities. Told him before the game started "Your friends are bad", which I don't think he bought... but whatever. One of the games their leblanc built sorc boots, void staff and haunting guise only, and was proud of his magic reduction. The other team barely had any MR.... big head slap moment.

Spected a few games of theirs since too... some ugly ugly stuff.

 

[Mothman91]

Is he new/never jungled before? Probably your fault for not telling him to get it to be fair

Definitely not a new player, but for jungling, he RARELY does it. I'm usually the kind of player where if there is 2 roles left, I'll give the other player the pick of either or. But when I play with my friends, they really do not give a shit about roles.

AD top, AD jungle, Carry already picked?
"shit, lemme pick an AD support"
hate that shit so much.

 

[scy]

I have a friend that just started playing due to some guys he knew from another game suckering him in. He was talking about how they were good etc and I should play with them. Joined a couple of their games.... oh god.

These are guys with 800 wins, playing with no jungler, not buying boots 20 minutes in the game... and having 50 CS end game. At champ selection I knew it was going to be bad when I saw all the surges and clarities. Told him before the game started "Your friends are bad", which I don't think he bought... but whatever. One of the games their leblanc built sorc boots, void staff and haunting guise only, and was proud of his magic reduction. The other team barely had any MR.... big head slap moment.

Spected a few games of theirs since too... some ugly ugly stuff.

Games with the friends of random people I've met are what's destroyed my record. I had 10 losses in Rift from 1-30. I'm up to like 40 now :|

Probably why I play a lot of Dominion now, don't lose as often with my normal group(s)!

 

[EXGN]

Gave my friend the option to pick support or jungle because those were the last two roles left in our game. He said he'll pick Xin jungle, so I proceeded to pick Lulu. By the time lane phase ended, I found out he never went lantern...

I wanted to pull my hair out, I don't know you can jungle efficiently without lantern. He was my level(9) while everyone else was 11-12. Don't think I'll ever allow him to jungle ever again.

There are a lot of junglers that don't run Wriggles. I actually don't think I build Wriggles on jungle Xin, I think I go the Avarice Blade/HOG GP5 route. The AOE on his E clears camps pretty quickly and he has built-in sustain.

 

[zkylon]

Speaking of junglers, I should finally take on jungling, but that's a rune page on its own, right? Is Malph any good at it? I'd rather not buy another champ for it :/

Butcher will do more damage to them but I'd rather have the AD for general harassing of your opponent.

Hmm, I see. I've been using Butcher but I don't really have a problem last hitting, I just wanted to see if I was wasting masteries.

 

[Ferrio]

Speaking of junglers, I should finally take on jungling, but that's a rune page on its own, right? Is Malph any good at it? I'd rather not buy another champ for it :/
.

Ya malph is good. Attack speed reds, armor yellows, movement quints some standards that work with mostly all junglers. But it's really up to what character you're playing. Don't know what people do standard with blues. I usually do scaling MR or something that's champ dependant.

 

[Mothman91]

There are a lot of junglers that don't run Wriggles. I actually don't think I build Wriggles on jungle Xin, I think I go the Avarice Blade/HOG GP5 route. The AOE on his E clears camps pretty quickly and he has built-in sustain.

Interesting, but I don't know if most people will level E first. Isn't his Q/W more for ganking because of the AS/Dmg?

 

[Q8D3vil]

Speaking of junglers, I should finally take on jungling, but that's a rune page on its own, right? Is Malph any good at it? I'd rather not buy another champ for it :/


Hmm, I see. I've been using Butcher but I don't really have a problem last hitting, I just wanted to see if I was wasting masteries.

jungling 101, start with ww since he dont need special runes.

 

[zkylon]

jungling 101, start with ww since he dont need special runes.

This seems like a good idea. He's 450, right?

Ya malph is good. Attack speed reds, armor yellows, movement quints some standards that work with mostly all junglers. But it's really up to what character you're playing. Don't know what people do standard with blues. I usually do scaling MR or something that's champ dependant.

Hmm, that's 9 reds and 3 quints I have to buy. The quints are ok because I was gonna try it on my AP mids anyways, but I don't want to spend that much lol

I'm cheap but I owe Sona her rune page back

 

[kayos90]

This seems like a good idea. He's 450, right?


Hmm, that's 9 reds and 3 quints I have to buy. The quints are ok because I was gonna try it on my AP mids anyways, but I don't want to spend that much lol

I'm cheap but I owe Sona her rune page back

MS quints are horrible for mid. Don't ever use them on AP mid champs.

 

[Ken]

MS quints are horrible for mid. Don't ever use them on AP mid champs.

Anivia?

 

[kayos90]

Anivia?

She doesn't need it. There are far better quints available for her.

 

[Ferrio]

Anivia?

Good ole scumbag riot. Make flying champion, give it the slowest movespeed.

 

[dimb]

jungling 101, start with ww since he dont need special runes.

No. Warwick sucks. Nunu is the entry level jungler.

MS quints are horrible for mid. Don't ever use them on AP mid champs.

Also terrible advice.

 

[scy]

MS quints are horrible for mid. Don't ever use them on AP mid champs.

Eh, a lot of the mobile champs benefit from Movement in certain matchups. I wouldn't use it on someone slow like Anivia though.

Good ole scumbag riot. Make flying champion, give it the slowest movespeed.

And then there's Rammus.

No. Warwick sucks. Nunu is the entry level jungler.

Warwick is an easy Jungler to play, though I don't think he does enough to impact the game. Nunu, now, is probably the better Jungler to learn just for general usefulness down the road and for how easy his Jungling is.

I learned with Shyvana and Lee Sin :| Don't do that.

 

[Blizzard]

MS quints are horrible for mid. Don't ever use them on AP mid champs.

I like movespeed quints on Katarina for chasing to get into shunpo range. Presumably it helps going to top and bot lane as well. Super pros might use flat AP quints on her though, so I have no idea.

 

[dimb]

I learned with Shyvana and Lee Sin :| Don't do that.

Shyvana is one of the easiest champions in the game though.

 

[scy]

I like movespeed quints on Katarina for chasing to get into shunpo range. Presumably it helps going to top and bot lane as well. Super pros might use flat AP quints on her though, so I have no idea.

She's one of the mobile champs you see a lot of Movement Quints on, I believe :x

Shyvana is one of the easiest champions in the game though.

I definitely recall the flak I got from this thread when I mentioned learning jungle with Shyvana :| She is very easy for the actual jungling, though. Her ganks are a bit harder to do but she lets you work on counter jungling and gank timing really well!

 

[zkylon]

Well, you guys sort these problems out and tell me lol

Since I already have Nunu, I'll do that for now

 

[Barrel Cannon]

MS quints are horrible for mid. Don't ever use them on AP mid champs.

Add Ryze to the list of people who does benefit from MS quints

 

[dimb]

Add Ryze to the list of people who does benefit from MS quints

Are we all being sarcastic or something? Seriously, I don't get it.

 

[kayos90]

I think we're all screwing around. MS quints are always outclassed by other quints for AP Mids.

 

[EXGN]

Interesting, but I don't know if most people will level E first. Isn't his Q/W more for ganking because of the AS/Dmg?

E gains the most from being leveled, with damage scaling from 70 @ level 1 to 230 @ level 5. The slow is also improved from 25 percent to 50 percent and the cooldown reduced. Q barely gains any damage and the CD is pretty minimal as it is. W might be a better choice to level in lane, but it doesn't really help clear the jungle any faster since it's all auto attack/single target focused.

I tend to go with a pretty unorthodox build for Xin, though. Not saying you shouldn't build Wriggles, I don't though. I go for Randuins and Ghostblade first to maximize CDR, going for Frozen Mallet/Triforce/Maw/Wit's End after depending on how the game goes.

 

[dimb]

I think we're all screwing around. MS quints are always outclassed by other quints for AP Mids.

No...they're not.

 

[scy]

Yeah ... for a variety of mids, Movement are the best choice.

 

[Ferrio]

Shyvana is one of the easiest champions in the game though.

Execution wise ya.... ganking and knowing how to counter jungle safely and effectively isn't.

 

[kayos90]

No...they're not.

You and I agree for once. Omg.....

 

[kiunchbb]

You and I agree for once. Omg.....

Pretty sure he was disagreeing with you.