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[MultiCore]

Holy macaroni who cares? These games weren't fun to watch. Maybe it's the fault of the game maybe it's the fault of the teams, who knows?

That, right there, is an idea worth exploring.

There are obviously many variables in this game. Champ selection, runes, masteries, player skill.....

Riot is trying to, from what I can tell, attempt to make each champ unique, but ultimately make the equation balance out. (Until champ picks are restricted to lane roles, they're going to have a tough time with that, in my opinion.) (Not saying I want restricted champ picks though.)


There are also many different strategies that can be employed to achieve victory, but it seems that most of them rely on mistakes from the other team, or dumb luck in beneficial positioning.



When you look at LoL from a competition standpoint, how do you make a game that's both fun to play, but also perfectly balanced? I'm sure this is something that's a source of great distress for both Riot and the players.

Right now, I feel like LoL is a lot of fun. Well balanced? Eh, perhaps I'm not good enough to say, but it seems like every couple of weeks, we discover a champ that hasn't been nerfed in a while is extremely OP, and was just waiting for the right player to rediscover their dominance in the current landscape.


Looking at the pro teams, there's a lot of diversity in playstyles amongst the different regions. Just looking at how TSM got stomped by Azubu Blaze shows that there are many different ways to look at possible game play options in LoL and capitalize on enemy expectations.

Teller, of Penn and Teller, has a great video about a magician that did a trick for him that used his expectations about sleight of hand to do the opposite of what his movements suggested, and really caught him by surprise. I think it's analogous to what we see in matchups from different regions; an expected meta by one side manages to completely disrupt the playstyle the other has come to expect.

I'm sure Riot heavily analyzes every tourney match server side, but to what end? What is their goal? Do they want the game to be the equivalent of everyone smash their heads against a brick wall until teams all develop perfect focus to burst each team member down in order? I can't say I have any insight into that, but they're obviously playing whack-a-mole with FOTM champs to keep anyone from sticking out too badly.



Anyway, don't know where I'm going with this, but I do think that exploring the game vs players balance is a very interesting topic, one that I'm not remotely qualified to explore more deeply, but I'd like to see more of. ROG does pretty well with this on occasion, and there stuff is a fun read. It's also neat to see people like Siv HD find different ways to use champs (his Support Heimer vid is hilarious).

 

[Inskipp]

So what regionals are left? Don't really keep up with this stuff.

This is the last one to my knowledge.

E: nvm, Korean regionals occur in sept. 22.

And when do TSM/DiG face off?

Now.

 

[dimb]

So what regionals are left? Don't really keep up with this stuff. And when do TSM/DiG face off?

TSM vs. DIG is on now.
http://www.ustream.tv/channel-popup/riot-games

 

[Blizzard]

I saw a good support Mundo yesterday. Or terrible other bottom lane. That's the trouble, you can never tell.

 

[dimb]

Mundo does not offer enough CC or tankiness to be valuable without gold.

 

[zkylon]

So guys, Orianna or Zyra?

 

[dimb]

So guys, Orianna or Zyra?

Neither. Maybe Zyra.

 

[Blizzard]

So guys, Orianna or Zyra?

Wait for the new Super Orianna champion to come out. Though it's nearly impossible to play new champions in the week after they're released.

 

[kiunchbb]

So guys, Orianna or Zyra?

Ori, she remain useful even if she is behind in kills, and enough utilities for late game. Also win all auto attack trades!

Why not wait 2 more days for the new champion tho?

 

[MultiCore]

It looks like TSM is trying to throw this game from being too cocky.

C'mon guys, pull it together.


Edit:
They figured it out. Christ.

 

[dimb]

I do not think Season 3 will fly with the ban system working the same way.

 

[Ferga]

I'm still amazed dig is actually here in the finals. Real props to them

 

[Finn of Ooo]

played against an ap rengar yesterday, he owned top lane but was useless in teamfights, although we still lost because our bot lane fed

 

[MultiCore]

played against an ap rengar yesterday, he owned top lane but was useless in teamfights, although we still lost because our bot lane fed

I find the phrase, "Stop Feeding bot!" to be on par with "Stop sucking".

I mean, who (aside from trolls) intentionally dies? I mean, is there a button they can press to stop being killed? What do people expect? Should they afk at fountain? How can they keep trying to contribute without being yelled at?

Nothing personal sir, I just want to bring this up, as it has bothered me for a while.

TSM be with you all!

Edit:
Also, constant cries of "Why?!" when someone makes a mistake. Once again, who (aside from trolls) goes into a situation that they know will end poorly for them?

 

[zkylon]

Ori, she remain useful even if she is behind in kills, and enough utilities for late game. Also win all auto attack trades!

Why not wait 2 more days for the new champion tho?

Don't have the IP on me, so I'm just thinking out loud. I want an AP mid with area CC like Malph or Sona. I already have a team member playing Cassiopeia and Morg's always banned, so I'm left with those two.

 

[methane47]

TSM is ridiculous

 

[dimb]

Don't have the IP on me, so I'm just thinking out loud. I want an AP mid with area CC like Malph or Sona. I already have a team member playing Cassiopeia and Morg's always banned, so I'm left with those two.

You should own Morgana anyways. You should be looking for more in your AP mid than just AOE CC. Twisted Fate and Ryze are both super cheap and super strong right now.

 

[zkylon]

I find the phrase, "Stop Feeding bot!" to be on par with "Stop sucking".

I mean, who (aside from trolls) intentionally dies? I mean, is there a button they can press to stop being killed? What do people expect? Should they afk at fountain? How can they keep trying to contribute without being yelled at?

Nothing personal sir, I just want to bring this up, as it has bothered me for a while.

TSM be with you all!

Edit:
Also, constant cries of "Why?!" when someone makes a mistake. Once again, who (aside from trolls) goes into a situation that they know will end poorly for them?

It's more of a "dude, realize whatever you're doing is not working out for you and play more passively". I was playing a match just now and I chased an unkillable Cho'Gath and ran into ambushes twice. If my buddy on Skype wouldn't have told me "if you do that you're gonna feed them" I wouldn't have actually made the mental note not to. You may not be intentionally feeding, but you're feeding nonetheless and it's good people tell you that what you're doing is wrong. Of course, "stop feeding" doesn't really help anyone and probably pisses off the feeder some more.

 

[EXGN]

TSM's comp so much better against the poke. So many shields/heals.

 

[dimb]

TSM's comp so much better against the poke. So many shields/heals.

They knowingly picked against it. Even Soraka's MR and every lane having built in sustain is the perfect counter to it. This was over in champ select.

 

[MultiCore]

GG TSM.

It wasn't much of a fight, really....

 

[Moral Panic]

TSM TSM TSM TSM

 

[EXGN]

They knowingly picked against it. Even Soraka's MR and every lane having built in sustain is the perfect counter to it. This was over in champ select.

Yeah, I'm actually really surprised Dig tried for it again.

 

[Finn of Ooo]

I find the phrase, "Stop Feeding bot!" to be on par with "Stop sucking".

I mean, who (aside from trolls) intentionally dies? I mean, is there a button they can press to stop being killed? What do people expect? Should they afk at fountain? How can they keep trying to contribute without being yelled at?

Nothing personal sir, I just want to bring this up, as it has bothered me for a while.

TSM be with you all!

Edit:
Also, constant cries of "Why?!" when someone makes a mistake. Once again, who (aside from trolls) goes into a situation that they know will end poorly for them?

When I say fed, I mean they just lost badly. Not that it was purposeful, but thats what happened. I thought thats what feeding meant? Giving up a bunch of kills. Honestly if you give a kill or two, you need to hug turret and be careful about pushing in order to avoid further compounding the situation.

 

[MultiCore]

When I say fed, I mean they just lost badly. Not that it was purposeful, but thats what happened. I thought thats what feeding meant? Giving up a bunch of kills. Honestly if you give a kill or two, you need to hug turret and be careful about pushing in order to avoid further compounding the situation.

Yeah, I wasn't calling you out in particular.

I just see it used with a lot of anger/rage behind it. It's tough when you're behind, and you just can't manage to do anything against your lane opponent. You turret hug, and you get dived by 3 or 4 people, and your teammates scream "Stop Feeding" even though you were trying to be defensive.

I know everyone wants to win; I just wish the lol community as a whole was more positive instead of hateful.

Once again sir, I'm sure you were just being descriptive here.

 

[Blizzard]

It's more of a "dude, realize whatever you're doing is not working out for you and play more passively". I was playing a match just now and I chased an unkillable Cho'Gath and ran into ambushes twice. If my buddy on Skype wouldn't have told me "if you do that you're gonna feed them" I wouldn't have actually made the mental note not to. You may not be intentionally feeding, but you're feeding nonetheless and it's good people tell you that what you're doing is wrong. Of course, "stop feeding" doesn't really help anyone and probably pisses off the feeder some more.

I kind of agree with this. People can be completely not paying attention, or just doing the same thing over and over (running forward into enemy team alone, getting ganked over and over from overextending without wards).

It boggles my mind how some people can get 16-19 deaths in normal games. I don't think I've ever had over 11 outside of ARAM.

 

[dimb]

Just for the record, even Reginald said those were the easiest finals he'd ever played. I hope the World Championship offers better games.

 

[MultiCore]

Just for the record, even Reginald said those were the easiest finals he'd ever played. I hope the World Championship offers better games.

I think he was saying that purely to be a jerk/make fun of them/on a bet.

It was a very unsportsmanlike thing to say. :/

(Not saying it wasn't easy, but you don't kick a man when he's down like that.)

(This is 'e-sports' right? Not e-jackass?)

 

[dimb]

I think he was saying that purely to be a jerk/make fun of them/on a bet.

It was a very unsportsmanlike thing to say. :/

(Not saying it wasn't easy, but you don't kick a man when he's down like that.)

(This is 'e-sports' right? Not e-jackass?)

I think he said it because he meant it. Also, Dignitas was talking a bunch of mess before the game about how they would 2-0 TSM easily. Dig couldn't even be respectful losers either. Really pathetic.

 

[Opiate]

Just for the record, even Reginald said those were the easiest finals he'd ever played. I hope the World Championship offers better games.

Even Reginald? Well, when a shy wallflower like Reginald breaks his solemn vow of humility, you know it must be true.

 

[dimb]

Even Reginald? Well, when a humble wallflower like Reginald speaks up about the issue, you know it must be true.

Well the score reflects the statement. Not banning Morgana when you run a poke comp is about as big of a beginner mistake as you can make, and Dignitas didn't exactly look pleased with their performance either.

 

[Opiate]

Well the score reflects the statement. Not banning Morgana when you run a poke comp is about as big of a beginner mistake as you can make, and Dignitas didn't exactly look pleased with their performance either.

That I agree with (largely). I'm just suggesting Reginald speaking up about the issue isn't itself good evidence.

 

[Samyy]

I think he was saying that purely to be a jerk/make fun of them/on a bet.

It was a very unsportsmanlike thing to say. :/

(Not saying it wasn't easy, but you don't kick a man when he's down like that.)

(This is 'e-sports' right? Not e-jackass?)

Dignitas said that TSM would be an easy 2-0 and that they are not as good as clg before the match.

Dig was asking for it, even moreso due to the fashion in Which they lost after making those statements.

 

[dimb]

Here are some Brazilian esports: http://www.twitch.tv/esltvbrasil
I have no idea what to expect from them but I'm intrigued to know more about the scene there.

 

[EXGN]

Pretty eerie how the finals ended up turning out. So similar to Euro finals in that the expected matchup was CLG VS TSM/M5, but the underdog (Dig/SK) beat CLG and then the favored team (TSM/M5) stomped the 2nd place team. Meanwhile, the 4th place team (Curse/Fnatic) was the only team to beat the winning team (TSM/M5).

 

[Samyy]

Also apparently Dignitas was telling NA teams to not scrim TSM which is why they could only scrim Orb recently.

 

[Blizzard]

Dignitas said that TSM would be an easy 2-0 and that they are not as good as clg before the match.

Dig was asking for it, even moreso due to the fashion in Which they lost after making those statements.

I thought TSM in an earlier match in the same tourney was saying it didn't matter how they played/who they picked because they would win anyway. And they did. They seem arrogant and will presumably remain that way unless anyone besides Blaze beats them.

 

[MultiCore]

Dignitas said that TSM would be an easy 2-0 and that they are not as good as clg before the match.

Dig was asking for it, even moreso due to the fashion in Which they lost after making those statements.

Personally, I would feel that the results spoke for themselves, and they'd have done far more for themselves and the e-sports scene if they acted like men instead of boys.

"Hey Dig put up some tough talk before the match, but I'm proud to say that the results speak for themselves" sounds much more respectable than "That was the easiest game ever, n00bz".


I just don't see the virtue in acting that way.

 

[Blizzard]

If Riot does change the ban system for season 3, what sort of changes do people think they could make? Just more champions banned, or something radically different?

 

[MultiCore]

If Riot does change the ban system for season 3, what sort of changes do people think they could make? Just more champions banned, or something radically different?

I think it's going to be more bans. As the roster size increases, I guess it makes sense. Although, if you can just ban half the roster, where's the skill in that?

I have no idea what the best solution would be. (Maybe like M:TG, certain champs can be banned from tournament play all the time? I don't know, that's not very good either.)

I thought TSM in an earlier match in the same tourney was saying it didn't matter how they played/who they picked because they would win anyway. And they did. They seem arrogant and will presumably remain that way unless anyone besides Blaze beats them.

You know, that's the thing: They had their asses handed to them on a silver platter by Azubu Blaze. They have no ground to stand on with the whole "We're the best" thing.
Pride cometh, and such...

 

[dimb]

If Riot does change the ban system for season 3, what sort of changes do people think they could make? Just more champions banned, or something radically different?

I like the way Dota's ban system works where you ban out some champs, pick half your roster, ban out more champs, then pick the rest. You wind up with each team banning five champions and you can be more reactive.

 

[Inskipp]

If Riot does change the ban system for season 3, what sort of changes do people think they could make? Just more champions banned, or something radically different?

Simply increasing the amount of bans will allow teams to neuter entire team compositions, which would make for very uninteresting picking.

I personally hope they make it similar to Captain's mode in Dota 2. This way both teams could pick out crucial characters and then ban more champs that would benefit the afore-picked characters, then finish your composition.

E: Also both of the teams in that Brazilian stream are playing really well atm. I hope those kind of teams show up in S3.

 

[scy]

Dignitas said that TSM would be an easy 2-0 and that they are not as good as clg before the match.

Dig was asking for it, even moreso due to the fashion in Which they lost after making those statements.

Everybody was shit talking like that. Doesn't necessarily "excuse" it, per se, but it is worth mention.

 

[Finn of Ooo]

Yeah, I wasn't calling you out in particular.

I just see it used with a lot of anger/rage behind it. It's tough when you're behind, and you just can't manage to do anything against your lane opponent. You turret hug, and you get dived by 3 or 4 people, and your teammates scream "Stop Feeding" even though you were trying to be defensive.

I know everyone wants to win; I just wish the lol community as a whole was more positive instead of hateful.

Once again sir, I'm sure you were just being descriptive here.

Ya we're cool bro, I get what you mean but in this instance it was just them 2v2 and failing hard. I am guilty of raging and throwing "feeder" around pretty liberally though, but this was not one such scenario

 

[Koomaster]

Also, constant cries of "Why?!" when someone makes a mistake. Once again, who (aside from trolls) goes into a situation that they know will end poorly for them?

Sometimes people are dumb and you have to wonder how they got to where they are by being so dumb.

For instance I was Sona supporting an Ezreal, he had just killed Karthus and then stood, right in the death circle farming minions. Um, hello, MOVE, you are obviously being killed, my heal isn't keeping you alive... oh you are dead. :/

Like even if you had never heard of Karthus before, the fact that you are standing in this lit up circle and are losing lots of health should be enough of an indicator to move your ass. So sometimes you have to yell out 'WHY?!' because you need that release, otherwise your head would explode.

 

[brian!]

well clg has a pretty weak track record against dignitas
and dignitas doesn't do too hot against tsm

when everyone was talking about being worried about cheese strats
I mean we didn't really see too much of that, at least not on the level of Dig doing soraka mid, lulu, protect kog (which obviously has been nerfed)

it was fun watching the clg strats, the games were pretty tedious but it gave off such a different vibe. Like every TSM match pretty much feels the same. I really wish TSM.Evo had their shit more together, they are one of my favorite teams to watch, it was really exciting when their team got formed, and it was fun to think of TSM and TSM.evo being in a gaming house together. I imagine wings would be kind of a hard person to live with.

Edit: Also, I'm totally with MultiCore in this discussion, like people try to rationalize some bullshit tough love thing when people get angry during a game but it really just, for me, reveals some innate problem they have with interacting with people. Like I know its internet anonymity or whatever, but still. Is it really so uncommon that you will meet someone who doesn't really have a handle on what they are doing in this game? If you're roaming looking for perfect teammates you are really playing the wrong game, like it's a real treat when you have a team that has some idea of what they are doing, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do to have fun. I could have a better win ratio, but I would have had less fun playing the game. I love these stories I read on reddit sometimes where they will talk about dying a bunch, but their team is understanding.

 

[Boken]

TSM and Dignitas both look significantly better than CLG and Cursedid.

After the finals... hmmm. Just seems like TSM is the clear leader here.

Sometimes people are dumb and you have to wonder how they got to where they are by being so dumb.

For instance I was Sona supporting an Ezreal, he had just killed Karthus and then stood, right in the death circle farming minions. Um, hello, MOVE, you are obviously being killed, my heal isn't keeping you alive... oh you are dead. :/

Like even if you had never heard of Karthus before, the fact that you are standing in this lit up circle and are losing lots of health should be enough of an indicator to move your ass. So sometimes you have to yell out 'WHY?!' because you need that release, otherwise your head would explode.

I agree with Multicore also, when people make mistakes they will most likely know they made a mistake. Nobody can be 100% consistent, the fact that they are where they are doesn't preclude people from having bad games. Thats how I survive playing with randoms anyway. The only thing I point out are judgement calls because theyre not always obvious.

EDIT:
Dear peoples, don't complain about your supports if you yourself are not willing to play support

 

[Q8D3vil]

tsm was the leader along time ago, but i feel that curse kinda countered themselves with their stubborn picks and refusing to accept the current meta.

 

[Koomaster]

After the finals... hmmm. Just seems like TSM is the clear leader here.


I agree with Multicore also, when people make mistakes they will most likely know they made a mistake. Nobody can be 100% consistent, the fact that they are where they are doesn't preclude people from having bad games. Thats how I survive playing with randoms anyway. The only thing I point out are judgement calls because theyre not always obvious.

EDIT:
Dear peoples, don't complain about your supports if you yourself are not willing to play support

I normally don't rage when people die. I die lots and realize I have slipped up, and it happens to everyone. If I'm not watching someone's lane and they are dying a lot, I can't even get mad because how do I know they aren't trying their best. But when it's very obvious stuff like my above example that I've personally witnessed. I will definitely give an exasperated 'WHY?!' as I feel it is warranted. That is usually all I will rage as I don't think it helps to belabor the point. Teammates tend to do even worse if you keep harping on a mistake they made minutes ago.

In that game, that Ez's response was something like; 'YOU DIDN'T HEAL FOR ENOUGH. I didn't think it would kill me ALL THE WAY.' (emphasis mine)

Once I saw the way the wind was blowing with him, I didn't say anything else. I just tried to help out other teammates instead and hope he learned to not underestimate Karthus' post death killing abilities.

 

[Ferga]

Really sad to see where Evo is going. They should of replaced salce out a long time ago.

I watched a couple of their scrims when aphro was around and it was clear salce was the one who was letting the whole team spirit down. And I still believe aphro's leaving of evo was because of salce's habits.

He would just leave after 1 loss without any team discussion. He would just quit the skype conversations and play by himself while aphro, nhat, wings and unstoppable would be discussing strategies after a loss and see what they could do better. They recognised after scrimming that they had troubles making calls and were only good in laning phase because of their own individual skills in laning but they didn't go well as a team. They tried to make new strategies but without salce/ap mid there, they couldn't really anchor anything down.

It still amazes me how salce is still in the pro scene especially since he doesn't really try for it. I understand that he is studying and working outside of Lol but i don't really find it fair for him to drag an entire team down. And now he plans to leave evo and make a new team by himself.

Evo is just going to die more and more now.